Quasi-ABs

[Emily]

I know this is going to stir the pot, but some of my teammates have
asked me to broach the following subject with the group...

What about those who play power soccer, but are not necessarily
"wheelchair-bound"? That is, people are pissed when they play a team,
and later see their opponents jump out of their chairs and walk
around. Even those who use walkers do not necessarily need
wheelchairs. It seems unjust that such people play a wheelchair
game. There is a difference between using a power chair as one's sole
means of transportation and merely using one for convenience.

Thoughts?

[Scott R. Kempf]

I think if someone has a DOCUMENTED disability, they should be able to play.
The key word is documented...

Scott Kempf
RHI Indy Cruisers

 *****************************************************************
                          Scott R. Kempf
                      aru...@sbcglobal.net            
******************************************************************

[Corbett]

As someone who fits into this category, I want to thank you for bringing up a challenging issue for discussion. This is one of the main reasons I am very interested in the future of our sport - especially as there is a big push towards classification of players.

For most people in our sport, even people who can walk some, using a power wheelchair is the ONLY way they can play a sport. Many folks with cerebral palsy or arthritis - and even young people with muscular dystrophy may be able to walk some. To me, this does not make them "quasi-abs" but means they are people with disabilities who have some lower limb mobility but nearly all of them cannot use their upper limbs much.

Does this mean they have the same functional limitations as someone who cannot walk? No. Does this mean they should be prohibited from playing power soccer? That is a different question to me. For me, if folks can NOT play push chair sports, AND they have significant impairment, then I am fine with them playing power soccer.

Even among folks who use power wheelchairs full-time, I see a lot of variety in terms of hand mobility, trunk balance, spasticity, etc. I know that these can significantly impact people's ability to play at the highest levels of power soccer.

I don't know about the East and Midwest Regions - but here in the West, the only folks I see who are playing power soccer and can walk are people with cerebral palsy. To me, the spasticity in their upper limbs really impacts their playing. To me, this offsets any advantage they might or might not have from being able to walk sometimes.

Anyway, this is just my opinion - my 2 cents.

Corbett
#55 San Jose Steamrollers

Corbett Joan O'Toole
Mail2C...@yahoo.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.4dwm.org <<<< WONDERFUL NEW SITE:
"A place to network for women with speech and physical disabilities"

[marauder]

I have heard many times before, Who does the unfair advantage go to-
he who uses a power chair only for soccer, or he who uses his power
chair daily, and has mastered the control of his chair!

marauder

[Emily]

One issue that we have seen is that those who have greater strength
and can walk are often better able to sustain impact. That is, the
bigger, more muscular players are able to pick themselves up or move
their arm back onto their joystick if they get hit. This function is
a major advantage. Such ability to recover may also make them more
aggressive, as they are willing to make impact.

Part of my team's concern stemmed from the fact that we heard someone
with dwarfism was going to join the Indy league. Because we don't
know specifics (such as whether there are other disabilities), we
assume the individual uses a chair for speed and because they tire
more easily. But, dwarfism is not really a mobility-related
disability, all other things being equal. I think using a wheelchair
just for school, for example, is inconsistent with the meaning of
wheelchair-user as used in the power soccer world.

Of course, how do we really know how much someone relies on their
chair...?

[Emily]

So a person who's sole disability is documented Bipolar Disorder can
play? ;-)

[Matt Griffin]

Ok, Emily I have to strongly disagree with your whole argument. I have Muscular Dystrophy and I can walk SOME DAYS for very short distances. I cannot play any other wheelchair sport because I have arm weakness and can't even wheel a manual chair. You saying people with bi-polar should be allowed to play just because Scott said DOCUMENTED disability. What he ment is a physical DOCUMENTED disability. Do not take who words out of context just because your team is upset they saw someone who beat them, get up to stretch their legs because they were cramping. Both me and my other team mates who can walk, some with walker, some without. Does not mean they should not e allowed to play the only disabled sport that they are able to play.

If you have any more arguments about this subject you can even contact me by messenger I will gladly argue over this matter. When someone is trying to take my favorite sport I used to play when I was little before my Muscular Dystrophy kicked in that made me unable to and now you are trying to take it away again.

-Matt Griffin
Indy Storm
YIM: kts_mrteenie
AIM: Monkey46219
MSNM: MrTe...@gmail.com

Feel free to contact me.

[Emily]

Matt,

First, I don't want to respond to you via AIM or e-mail regarding this
conversation because, as Corbett pointed out, this is a discussion
that should be had. I think this is a great forum.

Second, please do not think that I was attacking you (or Jake or any
member of your team). There was no attack; I just threw out a comment
for debate. Further, nowhere did I mention Storm as a "culprit." I
realize that you may fall under the category of people being
discussed, but I meant nothing personal.

Similarly, I said nothing about your team beating ours. Please do not
be presumptuous here. I know there has been some animosity between
members of our teams, but that has nothing to do with physical
categorizations. That is, members of my team were mad because they
believe your team' s skills are so good that you guys belong in D1.
Personally, I think you and Irene (when purple) bring a lot to
tournaments.

Third, I think you should respond to the actual arguments (i.e.,
strength differentiality, etc.). That would be constructive.

Fourth, learn about sarcasm, man! When I was responding to Scott I
was being facetious. But it brings up a good point. You said Scott
referred to physical disability. Let's assume that. My dad has only
a pinky finger on one hand. Therefore, my dad has a physical
disability. He would LOVE to play power soccer. If he got a chair,
do you think he should be allowed to play? I'm assuming you would say
no; perhaps a person needs to have a documented mobility-related
disability. But how do we determine this?

On May 20, 6:58 pm, "Matt Griffin" <monkeyfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, Emily I have to strongly disagree with your whole argument. I have
> Muscular Dystrophy and I can walk SOME DAYS for very short distances. I
> cannot play any other wheelchair sport because I have arm weakness and can't
> even wheel a manual chair. You saying people with bi-polar should be allowed
> to play just because Scott said DOCUMENTED disability. What he ment is a
> physical DOCUMENTED disability. Do not take who words out of context just
> because your team is upset they saw someone who beat them, get up to stretch
> their legs because they were cramping. Both me and my other team mates who
> can walk, some with walker, some without. Does not mean they should not e
> allowed to play the only disabled sport that they are able to play.
>
> If you have any more arguments about this subject you can even contact me by
> messenger I will gladly argue over this matter. When someone is trying to
> take my favorite sport I used to play when I was little before my Muscular
> Dystrophy kicked in that made me unable to and now you are trying to take it
> away again.
>
> -Matt Griffin
> Indy Storm
> YIM: kts_mrteenie
> AIM: Monkey46219

> MSNM: MrTee...@gmail.com

>
> Feel free to contact me.
>

[Matt Griffin]

As for the sarcasm I had no idea who you were so I had no idea you knew Scott and were using sarcasm. As for your father yes they do need to document better the type of disability required. Although in your original post I saw no where you mentioning people whom don't have a mobility-impairing physical disability. That way it is an attack towards me and every other person who plays power soccer who can walk... I can think of 3 people instantly who can walk although they have a mobility impairing physical disability. If you have seen someone who does not have one then please let the higher ups in Power Soccer know, and address this issue at to the executive committee. I know I will ask about this issue at the National meeting now that it has been brought up.

As for us belonging in Division 1... I have to disagree with that. We played both Sudden Impact and Circle City Rollers and lets just say... we do not belong in their division... yet. This is where a Division 1.5 is in need of being created.

[Kevin Williams]

The question I have, and this goes along with classifications discussion. What real advantage does one have in power soccer by being able to walk? and what other abilities. give a player and unfair advantage over another?

If David Beckham got in a power chair Would he have an unfair advantage over Jerry book, or would it be the other way around?

I do say a player driving with hands has an unfair advantage over a person who drives with an alternative body part, i.e. using a head array, chin joystick, or sip-n-puff system. That's the only classification I personally see working in the sport. All teams must have an alternative access player on floor at all times. Teams need to make an conscious effort to recruit a variety of power chair users to play. That's what I believe the Paralympic classification system is intended for us to do. Recruit and include those who actually do have an disadvantage from a "typical" player. As a "typical" player, I don't agree with because I want to have that challenging high-level competition and push myself to perform at "MY" best. Then again power soccer is more than me and my wants. It's about every person who has to use a power chair, having a chance to push themselves and be competitive. Anyhoo, I'll get of my soapbox, but really think about what advantages we have, and what gives us that advantage over a fellow player.

Also naturally once we have enough players. The 11 or 12 and under players should have their own division because of size, speed, and power of chairs. Just my 2 cents.

Remember to put Team and number  at bottom of messages. So people know who you are.

regards,
-Kevin.
Charlotte Power Surge #11
US Power Soccer Group Postmaster.

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Emily <Byron...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Shem Hotep ("I go in peace")
-Kevin D. Williams

"Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. -- April 4, 1967

[Emily]

Matt -- you know me! Emily... INferno... brilliant law student with
the gorgeous brown eyes... (And by the way, Jake already took the
liberty of telling me what an idiot the original poster is.)

Kevin -- my issues with the alternative access player being a
requirement are several. First, and most obviously, what if there is
no one in the area with those circumstances willing to play? That's a
huge problem.

[Matt Griffin]

Yes I do know who you are now. Jake informed me. As for a solution, maybe we should have a Division 3... for players whom have severe disabilities and for the younger children. Yes there needs to be some regulation for what qualifies as disabled. Although I feel going to the google group is not the best way to solve the issue... Email Dominic, or the Executive Committee, or heck just at the next team Rep meeting.

[Barb Peacock]

There is currently nothing in the rules to prevent Abs from playing.

-----Original Message-----
From: USPowe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:USPowe...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Emily
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:59 AM
To: US Power Soccer
Subject: [USPowerSoccer] Quasi-ABs

[Barb Peacock]

As a teacher of students with physical disabilities, I beg to differ that
dwarfism isn't a mobility related condition.

-----Original Message-----
From: USPowe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:USPowe...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Emily
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:07 PM
To: US Power Soccer

[Barb Peacock]

Right now - I can play. This is why we need a classification system.

[Emily]

So, Barb, where would you draw the line? Any suggestions regarding
the classification system?

Matt, gee, I'd really love to discuss it at the team rep meeting
(i.e., the annual meeting). Unfortunately, it is being held such that
it is only feasible for those invited to Nationals to attend. Even
though my team was not invited, I would be willing to go to the
meeting, provided we were given funding to attend. Currently, my
recourse is the proxy vote. I have serious issues with that; even a
teleconference seems more sensical. But I digress...

[Barb Peacock]

Good question - this is why it has been brought up and dropped every year
since way before the establishment of the USPSA. When the rules committee
used to meet annually in Mesa, AZ, we would discuss where the line was and
if we needed a classification system. We never got very far as it was too
difficult to determine and we were at a point in time in the sport where we
were trying to grow and offer a team sport to those that could not otherwise
play. The rules used to state that one had to use a power wheelchair for
their everyday functioning. I remember the discussion when that rider got
dropped...

Personally, I think the sport should be for people with severe physical
disabilities who use need a power wheelchair to adequately function in the
community. In my opinion, if we allow more able-bodied people to play, the
more severe athletes will be sitting on the sidelines.

We need a specific classification system to draw a line. The international
organization is working on a system and I think we should look at that when
it is concocted. I know they are making good progress, but I am not sure
what it will entail.

[Emily]

Glad to hear someone is working on it...

[Gerry Herman]

Hello,
This is a complex issue that challenges all wheelchair sports as there are always more "able" athletes even when using a classification system, I remember my team's first Power Hockey Tournament game versus Canada when they scored the whole team raised their sticks over their heads in celebration something no one on our team could do.In wheelchair basketball most of the better players have diagnosis that allow them to ambulate, short of going to a points system and classification there is no easy answer as people could easier get a doctor's prescription to use a power chair everyday...the down side is that it then could potentially limit number of teams that could find the correct number of points.
Gerry Herman, Bennett Blazers

>>> "Barb Peacock" <bspe...@cox.net> 5/21/2008 9:28 AM >>>

Disclaimer:
The materials in this e-mail are private and may contain Protected Health Information. Please note that e-mail is not necessarily confidential or secure. Your use of e-mail constitutes your acknowledgment of these confidentiality and security limitations. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any unauthorized use, disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender via telephone or return e-mail.

[Steve]

Barb and Emily;

The classifaction of players would be a great help in recruitment of
potential players. To follow the rules that have been made is the only
way to satisfiy everyone. I have been able to walk in the past, walk
with a cane, walk with two canes, and now due to my neuro's orders I
am in a motorized wheelchair. The different stages of my past have all
had their challenges and rewards. Being able to play power soccer is
very enjoyable for me. Yes, I agree we need classifaction of players.
We can only have classifaction once the teams and leagues have become
large enough to have classifaction. I vote for the rule committee to
look into this and tocome up with a workable proposal. - Thanks Steve

> > > Thoughts?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Scott R. Kempf]

Emily and everyone,
A player should have a documented disability requiring the use of a
power chair.

Scott

[Nicholas Gieselman]

Is that full time or part time use of a chair?

[gb231124]

Well on behalf of somebody that plays powersoccer with her foot and me
who plays with a chin control. I think that anybody that can't walk or
move their legs very good should be able to play. However, if you can
walk then I say why not stretch and move. I'm not sure if somebody
with dwarfism is qualified as disabled. It depends on how bad it is,
if they can walk and use a crutch then I say they can. Also, what
about people who are on ventilators or have breathing problems? Should
they be allowed to play. I say yes.

Greg Busé #24

Turnstone Fearless Flyers

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[FELTMEYERS]

I HOPE YOU FINE FOLKS DON'T MIND IF I PUT IN MY TWO CENTS. I HAVE READ ALL
THESE E-MAILS AND WANTED TO MAKE A COUPLE OF COMMENTS. I HAVE NOT SEEN
ANYONE AS OF YET PLAYING POWER SOCCER WITHOUT SOME SORT OF PHYSICAL
DISABILITY THAT KEEPS THEM FROM PLAYING ABLE BODY SOCCER. I FEEL THAT IF
YOU CAN NOT PLAY ABLE BODY SOCCER BECAUSE OF A LEGITIMATE DISABILITY YOU
SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY POWER SOCCER. I WOULD LIKE TO USE THIS AS A EXAMPLE
OF A DISABILITY THAT WOULD NOT QUALIFY. MISSING A FINGER OR A HAND OR MAYBE
EVEN PART OF A ARM, THESE THINGS DO NOT PREVENT YOU FROM PLAYING NORMAL
SOCCER. I FEEL THESE EXAMPLES ARE SOME GOOD EXAMPLES FOR THOSE WALKERS WHO
DO QUALIFY, THOSE WHO CANT RUN DUE TO LIMITED FLEXION, FOR THOSE WHO NEED
ASSISTANCE GETTING UP IF THEY FALL ON THE FIELD, THOSE WHO ARE TOO SMALL AND
PUT THEMSELVES IN PHYSICAL DANGER. MY DAUGHTER CAN WALK (CAN NOT RUN) SHE
CAN NOT CLIMB UP STEPS OR EVEN STEP OFF A CURB WITHOUT HELP. SHE HAS VERY
LITTLE MUSCLE MASS AND LIMITED ABILITY WITH HER LEGS AND FEET, SHE ALSO HAS
NO USE OF HER ARMS! SO SHE CANT EVEN PUSH A CHAIR TO PLAY A NON POWER
SPORT. SHE DOES HAVE GOOD TRUNK CONTROL BUT IT DOES NOT HELP HER CONTROL HER
CHAIR ANY BETTER. IF SHE DIDN'T HAVE THAT SHE COULDN'T CONTROL HER CHAIR AT
ALL. I GUESS MY POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN WALK DOESN'T MEAN YOU
SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PLAY POWER SOCCER

[Kevin Williams]

Good post but please refrain from using all capital letters. it is considered yelling or making a point of emphasis. Thank you very much. Also which team are you affiliated with?  Parents or Coaches can you please put parent / coach of <team name>.

Thank you,
-Kevin
Charlotte Power Surge #11

[FELTMEYERS]

I'm so sorry I hope I didn't come across like I was yelling. I usually don't get involved in these discussions especially when it just sounds like two rival teams getting into a heated discussion, I would just hate to see someone not be able to play just because they can walk. The GREAT thing about power soccer is we all play hard and play to win, we look at the other team as the enemy,(when your on the field) but when the game is over we are all friends and we all enjoy each others company. I coach the DASA Dynamites and I coach a able body soccer team as well and I get more enjoyment  out of power soccer than the able body soccer. Again my point is just because you are able to walk doesn't mean you can play able body soccer and I feel that these people deserve the right to play a sport at there capability.

 

 

         Chad Feltmeyer  DASA Dynamite Coach    

[Scott R. Kempf]

Chad,

Wasn’t Power Soccer created for people in wheelchairs to have an opportunity to take part in a sport that normally wouldn’t be available to people with disabilities?  Power Soccer should be reserved for those who cannot participate in other sports. 

"Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. -- April 4, 1967<BR

[Erin McAloon]

These so called "advantages" can be found in virtually every sport.
Should someone with height be banned from basketball because being
taller gives them a so-called "advantage??" No, they shouldn't Being
able to walk or having more arm strength yet needing a wheelchair some
of the time does not mean you will be better at the sport. It's not a
sport about strength. Some of the best players have less strength than
some of the worst, yet they can play the game better because it's
about controlling your chair. We all have a physical disability and as
Scott said, power soccer is reserved for those who cannot play other
sports.

Erin McAloon
Indy Inferno #8

> From: Kevin Williams <mailto:lls...@gmail.com>
>
> To: USPowe...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 8:51 PM
>
> Subject: [USPowerSoccer] Re: Quasi-ABs
>
> Good post but please refrain from using all capital letters. it is
> considered yelling or making a point of emphasis. Thank you very much. Also
> which team are you affiliated with? Parents or Coaches can you please put
> parent / coach of <team name>.
>
> Thank you,
> -Kevin
> Charlotte Power Surge #11
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[FELTMEYERS]

Scott

 

Yes I agree with your last statement, Power soccer should be reserved for those who cannot participate in other sports, but just because you can walk does not mean you can participate in other sports. My daughter can walk but not with a normal gate, she can not run or kick and she has absolutely no use of her hands and arms so she would never be able to play normal sports. I feel this is where she fits in. I do not know if power soccer was created just for those people who are confined to a chair, I didn't invent it, however there are people out there that want to play a sport but they cant because of a physical impairment. I feel power soccer should be open to anyone who can not play a able body organized sports due to a physical impairment. That is just my feelings, everyone is entitled to there own opinion.  As I said before missing a hand or a finger does classify a person as being disabled but does not effect them from playing able body soccer although it would make a difference if they wanted to play baseball or football. Just as missing a foot or leg might effect someone playing able body soccer, so would you not let them play  power soccer ?  I think we should look at the individuals situation before we tell them they cant play

 

----- Original Message -----

[Emily]

I am glad to see so many people participating in the debate!

Remember, Feltmeyers, that people with missing limbs can get
prostheses and participate in AB sports. In fact, last week it was
determined that a South African with one leg was just admitted to
participate in Olympic sporting activity.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Stea...@aol.com]

This is all I can find about who can play in the CONSTITUTION about who can play perhaps it needs to be further explained:

Article II - MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the United States Power Soccer Association, (USPSA) is to provide persons with
physical disabilities using power chairs the opportunity to play, learn, and compete in the sport of power
soccer. The USPSA governs the sport of Power Soccer in the United States. USPSA promotes the sport
on a national and international level through tournament play, referee certification, training and growth.

Chris Faria

San Jose Steamrollers

---

Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[FELTMEYERS]

yes you are correct, if they have the means of doing so. It is wounderful to
see people excell and over come these hurtls their lives! Can you tell me
what the sport this person was playing ?

[Emily]

http://au.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news/article/-/3391292

> ...
>
> read more »

[Erin McAloon]

The mission statement sums it up beautifully. USPSA simply states
"provide persons with physical disabilities 'using' power chairs." The
key word being "using." It does not say those who are unable to walk
or those who play must use a wheelchair all day. Therefore those who
can walk but have a physical mobility issue and use a wheelchair has
the right to play.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Emily]

Hey Erin. That statement does not mention mobility at all. Again, my
dad could play under that definition.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Erin McAloon]

I never said that it said "mobility" or else I would have put it in
quotes, it inferred it when it said using power chairs. Its a USPSA
rule to have a documented physical disability that interferes with
mobility, eg the form we fill out about our disability. Your dad
doesn't use a wheelchair.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Scott R. Kempf]

Emily,
That depends on the definition of "is" is! :-)