self tip to avoid defender

[brit]

I saw this scenario being discussed on another ultimate forum and I
thought I'd bring it here to make sure I got the right answer.

The disc is thrown to a tall Player O1 who is standing in the end
zone. O1 is defended by a short defender D1 who can jump really
high. When D1 leaps up to make a play on the disc O1 taps the disc
directly upward so that D1 cannot make a play on the disc. O1 jumps
and lands in the exact same spot and then catches the disc in that
same spot. O1 admits that the purpose of the tapping of the disc was
to keep the disc away from D1.

What should be the result of the play?

My first thought was the relevant rule is "purposeful bobbling
(including tipping, delaying, guiding, brushing or the like) to
oneself in order to advance the disc in any direction is considered
traveling."

It seems to me that O1 did not "advance the disc" since he stayed in
the exact same spot on the field. If that is the correct
interpretation then I believe O1 scored a point.

But then I read on the online version of the rules
http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx
that "tipping the disc for the purpose of evading a defender would not
be legal." Does that mean that in this example O1 is "advancing the
disc" upward? That seems odd. If not, what rule would make “"tipping
the disc for the purpose of evading a defender” illegal in the case
where the offense doesn’t change their location?

If O1 has travelled then what happens?

I believe the relevant rules are:

"A goal is scored when an in-bounds player catches any legal pass in
the end zone of attack, and retains possession of the disc throughout
all ground contact related to the catch."

"Completed pass: Any catch that results in the team in possession of
the disc retaining possession"

"If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are
attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the
player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into
play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was
gained."

"[travelling] results in a stoppage of play and a check"

My interpretation:
Since the catch is part of any "completed pass" and the catch was not
legal (it involved a travel) then O1 has not caught a "legal pass" and
does not score. So O1 stops play, and checks the disc where he caught
it (allowing D1 to tap the disc). Then O1 walks the disc to the goal
line and "puts the disc into play" (which involves a ground tap).

Am I right?


P.S. I apologize for not citing the rule numbers but the numbers
don't show up for me when I view the rules online.

[ultimate7]

Hmmm, I hadn't been to the online rules on the new site. In any case
I can't see any interpretation of this not being a goal. If you are
in the endzone and you travel you are still in the endzone. So they
call travel, you go back to where you were and it's still a goal. In
this case the O player was still in the same place so I don't think it
could even be called a travel (though the notes in the online rules
perhaps suggest otherwise, I assume they were considering the
situation in which the O player moved)

On Aug 30, 8:12 pm, brit <britain.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I saw this scenario being discussed on another ultimate forum and I
> thought I'd bring it here to make sure I got the right answer.
>
> The disc is thrown to a tall Player O1 who is standing in the end
> zone.  O1 is defended by a short defender D1 who can jump really
> high.  When D1 leaps up to make a play on the disc O1 taps the disc
> directly upward so that D1 cannot make a play on the disc.  O1 jumps
> and lands in the exact same spot and then catches the disc in that
> same spot.  O1 admits that the purpose of the tapping of the disc was
> to keep the disc away from D1.
>
> What should be the result of the play?
>
> My first thought was the relevant rule is "purposeful bobbling
> (including tipping, delaying, guiding, brushing or the like) to
> oneself in order to advance the disc in any direction is considered
> traveling."
>
> It seems to me that O1 did not "advance the disc" since he stayed in
> the exact same spot on the field.  If that is the correct
> interpretation then I believe O1 scored a point.
>

> But then I read on the online version of the ruleshttp://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_r...

[Colin]

Stay tuned for an authoritative reply. Just going to confirm with the
remainder of the SRC to avoid any confusion.

-Colin

On Aug 30, 9:12 pm, brit <britain.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I saw this scenario being discussed on another ultimate forum and I
> thought I'd bring it here to make sure I got the right answer.
>
> The disc is thrown to a tall Player O1 who is standing in the end
> zone.  O1 is defended by a short defender D1 who can jump really
> high.  When D1 leaps up to make a play on the disc O1 taps the disc
> directly upward so that D1 cannot make a play on the disc.  O1 jumps
> and lands in the exact same spot and then catches the disc in that
> same spot.  O1 admits that the purpose of the tapping of the disc was
> to keep the disc away from D1.
>
> What should be the result of the play?
>
> My first thought was the relevant rule is "purposeful bobbling
> (including tipping, delaying, guiding, brushing or the like) to
> oneself in order to advance the disc in any direction is considered
> traveling."
>
> It seems to me that O1 did not "advance the disc" since he stayed in
> the exact same spot on the field.  If that is the correct
> interpretation then I believe O1 scored a point.
>

> But then I read on the online version of the ruleshttp://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_r...

[Lynchie]

On a similar note, how about someone who's wide open in the end zone
when the disc gets to them, but takes a few steps (all still in the
end zone) while spinning the disc on their finger for showboating's
sake before stopping rotation. Travel, disc comes in at the line?

[Colin]

We'll cover that in the authoritative reply, too. Making sure that we
discuss this completely so that we reduce confusion and help with
uniformity of interpretation. Stay tuned.

And as always, thanks for taking the time to seek out accurate rules
information. Each question posted helps many more players learn and
review the rules.

-Colin

[k-dubs]

is there a answer for this yet?

[themindset]

I've seen a similar question answered by an SRC member (what should
happen if a player makes a "greatest" self-mac lay out, gets up, and
then runs into the endzone and catches his own mac, all on purpose).

I remember the SRC member at the time called it a travel, but a legit
catch, and that the player would get this disc on the endzone line.

Wish I could find that discussion, but no luck.

[Jon Bauman]

There will be an official answer by early next week. Sorry for the delay.

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[Jon "RB" Bauman]

As promised, some closure:

In this situation, the disc was intentionally advanced (upward), so it
is a travel under XV.A. The infraction pretty clearly affected the
play, so the disc would revert to the thrower (XVI.C.2.b.1). If there
were no defender involved and the delay was just a show-boating move,
the score would stand (if the initial intentional delay were already
in the end zone.

There's a little language to clean up for the next revision, but
essentially our interpretation is in-line with the current annotated

version of the rules:
http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx

> > upa_11th_edition_...@googlegroups.com<upa_11th_edition_rules% 2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .