Delay of game vs. Pre-stall

[jcrotty]

I'm confused about when you should issue a delay of game warning
versus when you should do a pre-stall countdown.

The Pre-stall sections (XIII.A.3-4) say that when a disc comes to rest
on the playing field proper (in section 3) or outside the playing
field proper (in section 4): a member of the team becoming offense
must put the disc into play within ten (20) seconds after it comes to
rest. After ten (20) seconds elapse, a defensive player within three
meters of the disc may announce Disc In, and then initiate and
continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given
audible warnings of ten and five seconds (20, 10, 5) (the pre-stall)".

But the Delay of Game (section XIII.A.5) says: If an offensive player
unnecessarily delays putting the disc into play in violation of rule
XIX.B, a defender within three meters of the spot the disc is to be
put into play may issue a Delay of Game warning instead of calling a
violation. If the behavior in violation of rule XIX.B is not
immediately stopped, the marker may initiate and continue a stall
count, regardless of the actions of the offense. In order to invoke
this rule, after announcing "delay of game" the marker must give the
offense two seconds to react to the warning, and then announce "disc
in" before initiating the stall count.

XIX.B says: It is the responsibility of all players to avoid any
delay when starting, restarting, or continuing play. This includes
standing over the disc or taking more time than reasonably necessary
to put the disc into play.

***So my question is: when do you use a delay of game warning (with
the two second wait) instead of the Pre-stall countdown with the 20 or
10 second wait? Is the delay of game warning only used when the disc
is dead (like after a call)?

[Colin]

The 10/20 second pre-stall countdown can happen after every turnover
and in an observed game, the observer will count it after every
turnover. You can do this in an unobserved game, too.

The delay of game warning is for when the other team is unreasonably
delaying, whether within the 10/20 seconds or not. It's essentially
the defense's way of saying "hurry up." So let's say a turnover
happens and the disc comes to rest right near the other team's best
thrower (the one who always picks up the disc after a turnover).
Instead of going to pick up the disc, he pauses, catches his breath a
little, and begins instructing his teammates where they should be set
up and what play they are going to run. You could say he was taking
more time than reasonably necessary to put the disc into play and give
the delay of game warning ("hurry up!").

-Colin

[jcrotty]

So you're entitled to walk to the disc (instead of jogging) so long as
you get to it within 10 (or 20) seconds. But if you jog to the disc,
and then stand over it, you're asking for a Delay of Game warning
(even if you're within your 10/20 seconds)?

Or what if I hand block a handler. I could obviously pick up the disc
right away, but all of my teammates are going to be behind me. So I'm
likely to just stand a few yards from the disc and wait for them to
move past me and get into a stack before picking it up. That's okay?

Is a delay of game call only justified if someone is standing over the
disc and using the time to shout instructions or catch their breath?

[Colin]

I do not think we have defined exactly what is or is not
"unreasonable" in terms of delay. I think it's left as a bit of a
judgment call, which is why I like to think of it as a way of saying
"hurry up." There was some discussion of this in another thread, and
I think the "hurry up" idea captures the SRC view and what Flo wrote
on the rules blog a while back.
http://groups.google.com/group/upa_11th_edition_rules/browse_frm/thread/7ad4b2f41c1452ef/08f7e8c220081524?lnk=gst&q=%22delay+of+game%22#08f7e8c220081524

http://uparules.blogspot.com/2007/03/pre-stalls-and-delay-of-game.html

But as I said in the other thread, we have left "unreasonable"
undefined, and it would be helpful to at least flesh it out a bit in
an official document. I will try to unofficially flesh it out a
little for you, while trying to stay in line with my impression of the
general SRC view.

1) Walking toward the disc is not unreasonable. No need to jog
(though the 10/20 second limit still applies).

2) Choosing to stand around and wait instead of picking up the disc is
unreasonably delaying, whether you're standing over the disc, standing
near the disc, or standing somewhere further away. The point is if
you're the one who's going to put the disc into play and you're able
to do so, you should do it rather than waiting around.

3) It is not unreasonable delay to figure out who's picking up the
disc, waiting a second to avoid a pick or other obstruction from
people running through, etc. I do not think you have to pick up the
disc absolutely immediately, but waiting around more than a second or
two strikes me as unreasonable.

So looking at your situations, under this view:

a) Walking to the disc would not be unreasonably delaying. If you jog
over and then stand over the disc (or wait around) it is unreasonably
delaying.

b) After the hand block, I think most people would tolerate a little
time spent figuring out who was going to pick up the disc, avoiding
picks, etc. But you definitely are not entitled to just stand back
and wait for your full 10 seconds. I think this is a situation where
you and your opponent establish how you're going to play it (your
opponent will tell you to hurry up if he thinks you're delaying too
much).

c) Not only catching one's breath or calling plays. My guideline for
calling it is that if I think the purpose of the person in not picking
up the disc is to gain extra time (by delaying), I might give the
delay of game warning.

Understanding that it's not fully defined, is that a helpful guideline
to give a sense of how to apply (or not apply) that rule in a game
setting?

-Colin

[jcrotty]

Very helpful. Thanks. It just bothers me a little bit that it's not
a clear cut thing. It seems like maybe we should just get rid of the
Delay of Game thing and give everybody their ten seconds if they
choose to use it.

On Aug 7, 7:37 pm, Colin <colinmcint...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not think we have defined exactly what is or is not
> "unreasonable" in terms of delay.  I think it's left as a bit of a
> judgment call, which is why I like to think of it as a way of saying
> "hurry up."  There was some discussion of this in another thread, and
> I think the "hurry up" idea captures the SRC view and what Flo wrote

> on the rules blog a while back.http://groups.google.com/group/upa_11th_edition_rules/browse_frm/thre...

[Jon Bauman]

Hey Crotty, how's Iowa?

Personally I'd be in favor of everyone always counting the pre-stalls and doing away with the 2-second deliberate delaying. I imagine we'll get there, but the culture right now is that people think you're kind of a jerk if you always do it and starting 10 seconds after they've been delaying is not really that useful. That's basically why the 2-second delay exists. It evolved from the prohibition on standing over the disc in the 10th. That resulted in crafty players standing a bit away from the disc.

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