tribal media site?

[Lloyd Sharp]

hmmm

anyone seen the tribal media site?

It seems to be offline....

or is it just me and my connection?

lloyd

_________________

Lloyd Sharp - lsh...@bigpond.net.au

[Digital Art & Design] www.chickenfish.cc - www.iris.fm - www.citroen.cc

__________________

[Tracy Valleau]

just you...

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "iShell discussion". The place to learn and talk about tribalmedia's iShell. Please visit us a http://www.tribalmedia.com.
>
> To post to this group, send email to Triba...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TribalForum...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/TribalForum?hl=en

[Tracy Valleau]

After answering Lloyd's question, I snooped around the site, and I see that the forum has had exactly two postings in the last 6 months.

And, of course, it's been about 18 months since "iShell version 5" was announced...

The fabulous new product is on the usual TM schedule: "right around the corner" "only driven by an old lady from Pasadena to go to church on Sunday" which really means "whenever we jolly-well feel like it."

(And Gil, as an aside, wasn't it a bit disingenuous to say to the fellow with the QuickTime missing component issue " QT: That is a strange... we have not seen this.. but glad you were able to fix it" ... given that we'd discussed it at some length on this list not three months ago? Neither here nor there, I guess... how you work your support/marketing is up to you.)

That said... as one of the first users, and hanging on to the bitter, anti-climactic, end... iShell has gone out with a whimper instead of a bang... well, I'm sad to see such a promising and capable development environment just be pissed away thru inattention. But the rot started back in the Duncan days, and like most slowly dying things, just waned and waned until all interest in it finally died of old age.

Might be just as well, since in parallel, the market for CDs gave way to an increasingly more capable web.

"Don't worry: we have a Really Hot New Product In The Works............. No: Really We Do."

Whatever.

So, here we are, finally, at EOL. I could say I told you so, but what would be the point? If I could have gotten you to go inside MacWorld instead of that ridiculous hot-dog stand... Spilt milk.

Now, what's going to happen to the 6 or 7 developers remaining? We'll move on, of course (I bought Revolution; I'm doing iPhone work) but that does leave the supposedly "open" iShell code base lying around. Remember when we first signed up and paid our hundreds-to-thousands of dollars? One of the benefits was that "iShell can't die because the code is supplied as part of your fees."

So, FWIW, and ONLY if someone else is -also- interested, I'll consider volunteering to take custody of the code, and if there are others who need to have iShell continue, perhaps together we can cobble things along.

And, if you TM folks have decided that your initial agreement with us is no longer valid; if you've decided to keep the code and not release it as promised... well, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me... any more than the "version 5 is coming" ... and never did. It's generally always been about you, and not about your customers. At least that part of it was consistent from beginning to end.

TM/ishell/tribeworks could have been great. Could have been a contender. It's wonderful, innovative, unique and powerful software... but...

Hubris struck first; apathy struck second; and (2 posts in 6 months) the customers left because "the park was closing for the night" - strike three.

I am one of the remaining few who hung around to watch the funeral... in the rain, my collar pulled up; my hands shoved in my pockets; the rain dripping off my hat... very film noir. Nobody even lowered the coffin into the grave: TM just walked away.

As for TribalMedia... well, if they have given up caring, then so have I.

If I sound bitter, well, that's because for 11 years I loved iShell... and it was unrequited. Treat your customers well, and they will stay with you even if the competition has a better product. Treat your customers like dirty, and no matter how good your product is, they will leave. (Quark, anyone?) TW/TM never did learn "it's about the customers, stupid" and they have not yet learned that simple, fundamental, basic business truth.

So, my friends of 11 years: YOU are the reason I stayed... not TM. My email is tr...@tracyvalleau.com. I'll be around if you need help...(or hear of any work! :-)

Gill, Matt: if you ever get around to releasing something... -anything- ... let me know. I'll take a look at it.

Meanwhile, I'm getting out of the rain.

Tracy

[Anthony Howe]

Heya Folks.

I must say I find Tracy's post a bit over the top, albeit that I can fully respect that 11yrs of experience and various frustrations may colour ones perspective somewhat.

Then again, I may simply just not know what I'm talking about.

FWIW though, I felt compelled to offer the following, here's my very recent experience:

Background: About 11yrs ago, I did a bunch of project work and training with AMT. Was great, Loved it, and a lot of the people I worked with. Few issues, but that's life.

Very recently ( few months back) , after going and doing other stuff, that I had a particular project need that I found myself pining for AMT again. Didn't really know about the whole iShell thing as I'd been away from it for a while.

Since then, we've founded a new company, purchased iShell and some other tools, and was given a really down to earth heads up from all the TM guys about where things were at, prior to purchase. Whilst we were told about the new version, I quickly drew the assumption that you can take or leave iShell as is really. If another version does come out, fine. But for what it is, it's pretty great anyway.

Importantly, even after all the supposed 'neglect' you propose below, it still does a truckload of stuff that simply still cannot be achieved by any other package as elegantly. Yes, I too have checked out rev and everything else out there. I would not be at the stage of the project in the timeframe I've had without iShell, and the customer support and service from Matt, Gil, Marcel etc...

In addition, I've found Gil & Matt as well as a few others on the forum to be invaluable sources of assistance as I go ahead and develop this project. I think their customer support is pretty damn good, with a neat personal touch that is just not possible at the big companies Tracy seems to wish they are, whilst at the same time being up front and realistic about what they can and can't do. Of course they'd like to stay optimistic about getting a new version out, so it's worth talking about. Lets not kid ourselves about how hard that probably is with a small customer base, small team, other projects etc..

I'm implementing what I understand to be some reasonably advanced functionality here, and have been able to do so pretty painlessly after 10 years of being away from the platform. In particular, I've found Gil to be a great source of support in this regard.

Whilst you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I don't really think it's fair to rap (.wrp?) these guys over the knuckles so openly and vindictively for not being the company you expect them to be, when they've actually probably done quite a lot for you, and many other iShell customers over the years.

If they've wanted to be paid every now and again, I don't really see how that's their fault. They too, run a business, and have probably tried in various ways to value what they do in context of the market. I think they still have something quite valuable to offer, regardless of how well it's marketed or not.

As for the source code, now there's a can of worms conversation if ever I saw one! I think it's fine with the guys right now, seen as how they own it! If they've shared bits and pieces of it for specific purposes and have a general intent to get it out in the open for the right reasons - cool.

We certainly don't intend to use iShell as our only arrow in the quiver here, but will continue to use it as long as it works for specific purposes, and I remain convinced that it has a pretty decent life ahead of it - with or without v5.

Anyway, thanks to the TM team for doing what you can with what you've got, and making me a very happy customer.

I really hope you don't have to 'die' as quickly as Tracy seems to want you to.

Cheers,

A.

Whatever.

Tracy

[Tracy Valleau]

Yeow!

1, I praised the software. I've made a fair living off it for a decade. (And, fwiw, I'm a professional programmer: C, C++, Assembly, Obj C, HTML, et al and have been at it for 32 years.)
2, I'm not vindictive (& I have NO idea where -that- came from!)
3: I agree with you totally about iShell- it's' great... even brilliant - and I said so.
4: I DON"T want iShell to die... but I'm pretty sure that anyone else on this list who is not a newbie will agree with my assessment. Heck: TribalMedia has already -announced publicly- that iShell -is- EOL.
5: part of the original agreement, back when this was a subscription service WAS that the source was freely had. Heck, I've got AMT, KEY and an old copy of the source around here somewhere.
6: you have obviously not been around long enough to suffer thru the years and years of promises of "next month" which turned into 14 months. It's a standing joke it's such a modus operandi around here.
7: I have no doubt that There's Something in the Works. It's been in the works for literally YEARS now.
8: customer support -was- good, but now Matt may take literally months to answer a question; Gil drops in every now and then. I've been around this software since 1999, and I remember when things were different.
9: I have been here through the "desertion" of many, many iShell developers who saw the writing on the wall long ago. I remained loyal for many ensuing years, and, in fact, am still supportive of iShell. (The key people, however, went off to do other things, and put iShell on the back burner.) I hereby pass the cheerleader mantle to you. Wear it in good health.
10: since I've been an independent programmer since 1978, suffice it to say I have a better idea of the problems of running a small programming business than most. Hell: I'm old enough to be the grandfather of most current programmers.
Finally: You are correct: you don't know what you're talking about. Walk a mile in the shoes of those of us who have been here 11 years before you criticize others.

My missive was a rueful, sad, RIP, eulogy merely acknowledging the facts as I see them. Too bad if you were offended at it. It wasn't written for you.

It was a semi-farewell to people who have been my friends for 11 years... including my friends Gil and Matt.

I'm glad you like the software. I wish you well with it. Everyone here likes the software. But when a company announces that it's EOL; when the support forum drops to 2 posts in 6 months, and version 5 is -still- only a promise after nearly 2 years, then to believe that the future is bright for it is simply to place your head in the sand... or in the stars.

Tracy

[Dr Bob Jansen]

wow, Tracy, talk about putting your head on a chopping block.

Suffice it to say, I agree with you totally. I wrote off iShell many
moons ago and converted our stuff to web format. Still, I like iShell,
I saw it with tremendous potential, unrequited potential.

Still think with warmth the Maritime Museum project we did together
and keep looking out for other projects we can do.

Keep hanging in there, 'old man'!

BTW, today I officially 'retired'. Feeling great about it, lots of
opportunities to do what I want rather than what someone else wants.

Keep in touch

bobj

-----------------------------------
Dr Bob Jansen
Turtle Lane Studios Pty Ltd
PO Box 26, Erskineville NSW 2043, Australia
Ph: +61-414 297 448
Skype: bobjtls
http://www.turtlelane.com.au

In line with the Australian anti-spam legislation, if you wish to
receive no further email from me, please send me an email with the
subject "No Spam"

[AIM...@aol.com]

<

Remember when we first signed up and paid our hundreds-to-thousands of dollars?>

Holly cow you got a good deal. I paid in the thousands-to-thousands. I remember my last renewal I had to beg for it cause I still needed a license then, and they were very happy to take my full renwal money, with a hundred promises, of course, of which not one of them has come true.  Let's see, I think that was 3, maybe even 4, years ago.

Shortly there after we read the writing on the wall and stopped all development of iShell (fyi invested in php/mysql dynamic web which has proven lite years more profitable than iShell). Haven't touched it since, although I admit I have been waiting eagerly for this coming bigger and better mysterious thing. I'm a fool. 

I firmly DITTO everything Tracy has so elegantly and passionately written. In the end this has been one of my most disappointing experiences in my 39 years in business. I'm amazed and ashamed to learn it's been 11 years and I have been so gullible for such a long time. 

How sad it is.

Ron

[AIM...@aol.com]

<<I must say I find Tracy's post a bit over the top, >>

He's not one bit over the top, and in my opinion he was too kind.

<<about 11yrs ago, I did a bunch of project work and training with AMT --- Very recently ( few months back) , after going and doing other stuff, that I had a particular project need that I found myself pining for AMT again. Didn't really know about the whole iShell thing as I'd been away from it for a while.>>

@A -- You missed out on 11 years of fun and joy, you can't even begin to know (goes far beyond Gill & Matt, it's the promises) .... oh well, that's the past, ... if you like how iShell is going, good for you and good luck --- you are gonna need it.

Ron

[AIM...@aol.com]

Well said. And I ditto <<iShell- it's' great... even brilliant >>. That's why all this is so sad. The community is dead. Once there was so many knowledgeable and interesting and valuable folks, it was good, very very good, actually excellent - over a period, one by one they dropped, like flies, then someone would step up, till there was no more; Matt left holding the bag. It's not his fault, this thing was cursed since the beginning (amt). The one thing that sticks in my mind about all this is that everything, always was "secret." And still is.

Tracy, we should write book about how not to build a business. IShell ( and similarly Flexware ) are two of the worst models the world has even known. The very very very very best products, the very very very very worst businesses.

Ron

Hey, it began with AMT and ends with MATt. Funny. Maybe a catchy name for our book? 

[Tracy Valleau]

A public apology.

A friend wrote me and said "You do realize this is a public list, don't you?"

OOPS.

I didn't. For many years this list was for the "insiders" - a few of us who had been here forever. Perhaps that will explain my tone.

But if this list is now truly public, then I have embarrassed myself in a very ungentlemanly manner, and for which I apologize, most especially to Matt and Gil. They are both probably upset, and would have every right to be, for something that was meant to be conveyed among friends was instead broadcast.

Mea culpa. As a public rant, it was indeed "over the top" - but as a private statement of my views, it was spot on, and I stand by my statements.

I've just gotten too frustrated at waiting for that which never arrives.

Perhaps it will serve the hidden good with which it was actually intended: to wake up TM to the realization that you owe your customers better than just promises: if you can't keep your promises, then just don't make them... but how many times have I said that over the years?

iShell is wonderful software; the people behind it have the best of intents, however flawed their execution.

Regards

Tracy

>>> Gill, Matt: if you ever get around to releasing something... -anything- ... let me know. I'll take a look at it.

[Robert DeSaeger]

I have been silent on here for a very long time and this was due to family matters that I had to keep flying back and fourth from Sacramento to Montreal on a nearly monthly bases. I just got back from Montreal again on Tuesday and will be flying back sometime next week. I have had very few  contracts for the past 19 months and only made $3,000.00 last year. Glad to say that the contracts have finally started to come in and will have more work than I can handle by the summer. During this time, I could not renew my license for 2 years. But, was looking forward to in April or May. Now, it seems like a questionable thing. 

As for the promise of iShell 5 well, there was an incredible piece of software a while back. NO IAN I am not talking about, " xxxx" I do not want to mention that name, for IAN will start cursing and doing his Assisi Dance around a bonfire. Ah the hell, Here IAN, do your dance, mTropolis. I paid allot of money for it, and of course Belly Up. Then there was another program that I loved, Electrifier. They asked me to purchase Electrifier 2 and that I would be the first to have it since I was one of their first 10 people to be beta testing version 1 when it came out. I paid the $495.00 and guess what 2 months later Belly Up. I truly hope that this will not be the case with iShell. I have been eyeing Revolution and it looks like that I will have no choice to buying it. UNLESS I CAN HEAR FROM MATT AND MAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT THAT WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH A PIECE OF GHOST SOFTWARE THAT IS ONLY ON THE DRAWING TABLE. I truly hope that is not the case.

What is sad, is that I sent a email to Marcel asking him a question about Kromo a few months back and did not get a reply. Mmmmmm I know that Marcel and Matt where working close together and the silence does worry me. If this is not the case, I would love to see if Marcel would reply to this email

robert

As for Tracy, I certainly can feel the pain to leave iShell and start developing on another platform. 

[Tracy Valleau]

Retired, Bob? Congratulations! I too enjoyed our work... iShell made possible some thing that were pretty impressive over the years. It got me clients like National Geographic, McGraw-Hill and others.

Honestly, I'd love an excuse to use iShell again.

Meanwhile, in my semi-retirement, I'm finding that my fine-art photography is achieving some success, having had several shows at prestigious venues. (My site: www.aperturef8.com for the curious...)

Yes: let's stay in touch... all of us. Heck, I'll be here on this list unless I've pissed off the powers that be so much that I'm kicked off...

:-)

Tracy

On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:50 AM, Dr Bob Jansen wrote:

>>> Gill, Matt: if you ever get around to releasing something... -anything- ... let me know. I'll take a look at it.

[Hector Navarro]

Bob

Congrats on your new job... ;)

=============================
Hector Navarro
Olin Multimedia
hec...@olinmultimedia.com
Tel: (998) 888-8347
http://www.olinmultimedia.com
=============================

[Tracy Valleau]

Wasn't there a musical... "how to succeed at business without really trying"?

How about "How to fail at business: not really trying"?

or

"The Fine Art of Beating Dead Horses"?

:-)

Tracy

[Hector Navarro]

I guess this is it :(

A bit sad because i maintained my subscription as a show of support
for the last 2 years.

I haven't made any money out of iShell in these past 2 years but i
made the effort* because i believed in the product and specially the
tribe.

Thank you everybody for being such a supportive and fun group and i
wish you success in all your projects.

=============================
Hector Navarro
Olin Multimedia
hec...@olinmultimedia.com
Tel: (998) 888-8347
http://www.olinmultimedia.com
=============================

[Tracy Valleau]

Well... I don't (obviously) have any inside info... I was just noting the trend... which seems validated now, since it's been 11 days since my post, and no reply at all from TM... Talk about unrequited love! :-)

T

[Brian McMurray]

I think it's important to remember that iShell is no more or less dead than it was before these posts started.  And it is in the same place it has been for years.  We continue to use it for things we need it for - which for us is actually still quite a bit - and we love it.

I agree with Tracy - and hope that we see the iShell 5 version we were promised over a year ago, and then again the summer, and then again in the fall - at some point.  That said - things are basically in the same place as they were as far as I can tell - and the same place they have been for a few years now.

-Brian

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "iShell discussion". The place to learn and talk about tribalmedia's iShell.  Please visit us a http://www.tribalmedia.com.

To post to this group, send email to Triba...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TribalForum...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/TribalForum?hl=en

Brian McMurray

Creative Director

Opus Communications, Inc.

Training people like to take.

5700 Broadmoor St. • Suite 400

Mission, KS 66202

web http://opustraining.com

work# 913.825.1604

mobile# 816.651.7345

fax# 913.825.2689

[Tracy Valleau]

Absolutely right! :-)

[Robert De Saeger]

All I am waiting for is confirmation that it is not dead and that iShell 5 is not vaporware.

I will be renewing shortly Vaporware or not. I just want to know if this is going to happen for iShell 5.

Either way, I will be sending in my money. I just feel sorry that Marcel will not answer my email, which 

for me is a sign that something is up.

robert

On Mar 8, 2010, at 12:01 PM, Brian McMurray wrote:

[Matt Cassidy]

Hi All,

To continue the discourse.

I am also continuing to use iShell and I would urge (continued) patience. As we all no doubt know life in small business can be tough. Survival and life in general often gets in the way of what would be ideal for our businesses. 

Everyone needs to make their own assesments of whether to hang in or not, but I for one will be keeping the faith. I have a great deal of respect for Tracy's views and sympathise with many of them. Although I have never met the man himself we have often chatted on Ye Olde iChat and he has been a terrific help to our business over the years with various ideas and pearls of wisdom - as has Matt V and his gang.

I know that iShell 5 is not vapourware - some of it is based off custom work that Matt did for us a little while ago and I can tell you it is a very powerful upgrade. As we all know Matt is an exceptionally talented and intelligent individual - albiet with a few foibles :-). Matt is not the kind of guy who tells lies, but sometimes can have trouble with a deadline.

I sincerely hope that iShell will battle out of this difficult period and continue to provide what is essentially a very quaint, unique and terrific product and community. The product feels like a quality, hand crafted pair of shoes in a world of cheap sneakers, and the iShell group kind of feels like a special little club in some ways. Hopefully it will survive the test of time.

Cheers

Matt Cassidy

Tourism Media

59 Cairns Terrace, 

Red Hill QLD 4059

Australia

t. 07 3369 7876

w. www.tourismmedia.com.au

This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information

intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If

you are not the intended recipient please return it (with the subject

"Received in Error") and delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or

distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is

strictly prohibited.

[Tracy Valleau]

Good comments, Matt. I do get frustrated after waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and silence... and silence.... you get it.

I may be standing by the graveside, but so far, I've not left the graveyard.

T

[Tracy Valleau]

Is it just me, or is everyone getting duplicate mailings?

T

[AIM...@aol.com]

yep. Getting them too. -ron

[Hector Navarro]

I may continue to use iShell if i can come up with the money.

As i mentioned before i have not had any paying projects using iShell
in the last couple of years.

Most of the multimedia clients i had left for Internet and smart phone
apps (which i' can't handle). I have several of my own projects on
the drawing board but most are for non profit organizations and i've
been trying to get the funds to get them started. The last two years
i had to beg my wife to let me use the money to renew my subscription.

Also, we have not been able to climb out of the local recession hole
that started when hurricane wilma hit and then the N1H1 scare (this
town lives or dies by influx of tourists).

I do love iShell (it is an awesome application) and it is the only
reason i stuck with multimedia all this time. I'm not a programmer
and apps like Director, Revolution, Real Basic and Flash just don't
seem as intuitive.

As i designer i love iShell and with Imagelayer iShell blows
everything else away in ease of use and authoring speed.

I truly hope that the tribe has something big "right around the block"
and that is why they are too busy to monitor the forum.

I also would like to wish everybody a Tribeworks all the best... they
are a great bunch of guys.

=============================
Hector Navarro
Olin Multimedia
hec...@olinmultimedia.com
Tel: (998) 888-8347
http://www.olinmultimedia.com
=============================

[Tracy Valleau]

Just in case it isn't clear to one and all: I -WANT- to be wrong in my assessment! :-)

If they come bouncing in here with the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'll be first in line (or at least fighting you die-hards to be near the front.)

It's just that meanwhile, I'm been holding my breath so long that I'm no longer blue-in-the-face.... it's probably black by now... so...

PSSSSSSSAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Whew! That feels much better! ;-)

T

[Hector Navarro]

LOL.

I'll be by your side even if i have to live on sliced bread only ;)

I also want you to be wrong...

=============================
Hector Navarro
Olin Multimedia
hec...@olinmultimedia.com
Tel: (998) 888-8347
http://www.olinmultimedia.com
=============================

[Gil Anspacher, Tribalmedia Support]

Greetings:

We understand your concerns and apologize for the delay in our response. We are currently finalizing plans for the future of iShell and will send out an announcement soon. Thanks for your patience.

Regards,
Gil Anspacher, tribalmedia Support

[Brian Moran]

And by 'soon', we mean well before the sun burns out.

--

[Robert DeSaeger]

I will be purchasing my license in May, to support Matt.

I believe that Matt can deliver and exceed with his new

vision for iShell 5

robert

[Tracy Valleau]

?

On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Gil Anspacher, Tribalmedia Support wrote:

[AIM...@aol.com]

?? Ditto!!

[Ian Hart]

Yes it is a valedictory, but what did we expect? I'm finding it hard to fit HD movies onto an iShell CD-ROM and clients want web-based media these days and in spite of what Steve Jobs thinks, Flash seems to have won the interactive on-line race. iShell is eventually going the way of mTropolis (remember that wonderful program?) I guess those of us who know and love iShell will still find uses for it for a while yet.

I originally used iShell in education, teaching interactive multimedia in Hong Kong and China and it was an amazing resource, particularly as it was free! (how that business model worked, I still don't understand). It was a great teaching tool, but what students really wanted was a web-based version. YouTube and Facebook have changed the way people think about interactive media. iShell is really stuck in the 1990s technology it was built on.

I'll keep using iShell for some client-based projects where the client has an exclusive player and the Media files are on Amazon S3. So, Open Source is not a bad fate and I'm happy to hear that a paid support option will keep going.

Vale the Tribeworks community and iShell. Love to you all.

Ian