Briggs' Breakdown query

[RobMac]

Hi. My first post here. Just getting into this minstrel thing.

I've just started looking at Briggs' Breakdown. I have two editions -
Bob Flesher's and Joe Weidlich's. They both have the same notes, but
completely different right hand indications. The first full bar, for
instance:

Bob: index on string 2, pull-off on string 1 before the index plays
the first string, second fret:

i p i
-------0---2---
---1------------

Joe: index slides from string 1 to string 2. The note on string 1 fret
2 is hammered on:

i - i h
-------0----2---
---1-------------

The second bar is also very different. It involves alternating quavers
on strings 1 and 3. Bob plays them all with the index (or middle),
whereas Joe alternates index and thumb.

So, I guess the answer is to work from the original publication or
facsimile. But, having not seen that, I'm wondering if things are not
so clear cut there also, and what we have from these two gentlemen are
''stylistically acceptable variants''?

Am I alone in finding the triplet in bars 12 and 16 very difficult?
Could one do an 'alternate string pull off' on the first string? Bob
actually gives an alternative bar which is easier.

Rob MacKillop

[Carl Anderton]

First of all, Rob, it's great to have you here. I've seen your vids
on YouTube and you are an historical musician of astonishing depth and
experience. It's great that you're learning minstrel banjo. I look
forward to plenty of interesting interaction with you on this board.

On Sep 12, 5:48 am, RobMac <luteplay...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering if things are not
> so clear cut there also, and what we have from these two gentlemen are
> ''stylistically acceptable variants''?

I don't have a tutor in front of me right this second, but yes, both
of those examples you gave can be found in the early method books.

> Am I alone in finding the triplet in bars 12 and 16 very difficult?
> Could one do an 'alternate string pull off' on the first string? Bob
> actually gives an alternative bar which is easier.

Yeah, them triplets are a bitch! I've experiemented with pull-offs
and various other methods of playing those phrases. Let your
concience be your guide. Like any other style, you won't regret
woodshedding the material "as given."

Bob Flesher is a hell of a banjo player, one of the all time greats,
and his minstrel style playing and instruction material is easily one
of the most important factors in this micro-genre's popularity. I
might opine that his variations are "his" and the student might be
advised not to overdo them- but that's just an opinion.

>So, I guess the answer is to work from the original publication or
> facsimile.

That's the opinion of a good many of us here. Our resident troll
would disagree (you'll meet him soon enough) but in any case, one must
eventually get away from the tab books if for no other reason that not
nearly all of the material has been tabbed. Besides, reading minstrel
notation is not all that hard- there's not that many notes!

Once again, great to have you here.

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks Carl. I turned to banjo to get away from all my Early Music stuff, only to find myself getting hooked on historical banjos. Just can't escape from history...tracks me everywhere. Much of it is the same process: get the original scores; get the original instruments or copies; string them the way they were intended to be strung; learn the repertoire with the appropriate techniques; study the performance practice not only for that instrument but for what was going on around it as well; explore what might have been in practice beyond the written page, etc, etc. Decoration, improvisation, variation - how did they do it? What is acceptable and what isn't. I actually enjoy all of that...

 

>>> I look forward to plenty of interesting interaction with you on this board.<<<

 

I hope so too, and with others also.

 

>>> I might opine that his variations are "his" and the student might be advised not to overdo them- but that's just an opinion.<<<

 

Fair enough. I like to make up my own anyway, once I've got a feel for what is appropriate (no tritone substitutions, then?!)

 

>>>one must eventually get away from the tab books if for no other reason that not nearly all of the material has been tabbed.<<<

 

So where can I get them?

 

Rob MacKillop

[Tim Twiss]

Hi Rob, and once again welcome. This is a great topic. You need to get
all the information you can, and then make your own choice.
I would like to say that you should get the actual Briggs' book and
check it out from there. It is explained in the beginning of the book
how to play slurs on the same string, and also on ascending strings.
Oddly enough, it is only addressed as a triplet, and you end up with a
nail glide, cleary a good choice for those types of phrases, like
Circus Jig. I believe that Bob Flesher correctly made his fingering
choice, but it is based on information from the next book (Rice's)
where this technique is clearly explained AND used extensively
throughout the book. There are some other spots in Briggs' where the
pull off is a good choice. This is an example of somebody with
perspective (Bob) making a good choice, though not "correct" from the
original. In the original, the example is shown in the key of "F",
which is an early "warning sign" to think for ourselves and realize
the potential errors that can lurk in a book.
What this tells me is that one should get ALL the information one can
to make a choice. I mentioned in an earlier note to you that fingering
ideas change somewhat as you move throught he tutors in time. I know I
sound like a broken record, but that is why I feel the information in
the Converse Analytical is so important. You have a fellow who saw it
ALL, and lived to give it some form and perspective in later years.
His approach to banjo fingerings ties all the volumes of work together
beautifully.
This discussion group is so helpful, as it was for me when I tried to
figure out how to play this music, having never heard or seen a stroke
player before. It was not until I got to the first banjo gathering in
2006 that I actually saw another guy play it.

[Carl Anderton]

On Sep 12, 7:42 am, "Rob MacKillop" <luteplay...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> So where can I get them?

Briggs Banjo Instructor- http://elderly.com/books/items/351-1.htm

Frank Converse Banjo Without a Master- http://elderly.com/books/items/262-2.htm

Buckley's New Banjo Book- http://elderly.com/books/items/351-3.htm

And of course the Banjo Clubhouse has the Buckley 1868 and the
Converse Analytical in pdf. Enough material to keep one busy
for...years!

[Carl Anderton]

On Sep 12, 7:42 am, "Rob MacKillop" <luteplay...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

< explore what might have been in
> practice beyond the written page, etc, etc. Decoration, improvisation,
> variation - how did they do it? What is acceptable and what isn't. I
> actually enjoy all of that...

That's a subject that is near and dear to my heart, Rob. It is my
opinion that after one has done a thorough study of the original
material, one is in a good position to embellish and variate the
music. Whether the player goes too far or what else is a judgement
call for his peers, and that is a good thing.

There are players who put their playing in a historical context, but
their style clearly draws heavily from modern sources and influences.
That's great-- more power to 'em-- but if you're going to call your
style "minstrel" or "period" you must by definition be gounded in the
primary source material.

I like to use techniques that modern clawhammer has discarded-- such
as the triplet finger glide-- or the triplets you described in your
original post- and use them as "licks" that can be interspersed from
time to time in songs. Or applying those same techniques to tunes
that aren't in the tutors- maybe tunes from violin or concertina
method books. In doing so I flatter myself that a seperation has been
made from the 20th or 21st century sound. Whether I'm successful at
that is a question for my peers...

[Rob MacKillop]

Well, friends, you've given me lots to think about. I've actually been waiting in all day for the delivery of my Enoch fretless Tradesman - don't all scream at me! I know it's not a period instrument, but at least it is fretless. I have a Boucher on order, but it won't arrive before next summer. In the meantime I'll do all the reading I can, try out the techniques, listen to all the sound files on the clubhouse (what a resource!) and generally think of awkward questions for y'all. Who knows, one day I might make it over for one of your gatherings. They look like fun.

 

Needles to say, the Tradesman has not been delivered, and this being a Friday, I'll have to wait until Monday...

 

Rob

[Rob MacKillop]

Dear Tom Briggs,

 

I know you are dead an all, but you just might be pleased to learn that someone in far-off Scotland has recorded a video of your Breakdown. It's on the Banjo Hangout Video page http://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/videos.asp . What might make you turn in your grave is that I've recorded it on a small banjourine (not invented yet, in your day), and (much worse) have used a reversed bluegrass (ditto) pick on my index finger. It is my first attempt at your minstrel style, and probably all wrong, but maybe the nice gentlemen on this discussion group will be so kind as to give me some advice. If you feel like chiming in yourself, please do, but I would understand if my poor performance has left you speechless...

 

Rob MacKillop

[GCA]

Dear Rob,

I think that is one of the most wonderfully introspective and
reflective interpretations of minstrel era music I've ever heard.
Thank you.

My only comment at this time is...keep on playing. You make me want to
hear more of what you can do as you learn more of this repertoire.
From a technical perspective, things will change, especially with your
right hand approach to the instrument once you get copies of the early
banjo tutors and you can read how they explain to attack the strings.

Keep it up!

With appreciation,
Greg

On Sep 13, 4:35 am, "Rob MacKillop" <luteplay...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Tom Briggs,
>
> I know you are dead an all, but you just might be pleased to learn that
> someone in far-off Scotland has recorded a video of your Breakdown. It's on

> the Banjo Hangout Video pagehttp://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/videos.asp. What might make you turn

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks Greg. Yes, I'm an introspective, if not downright melancholic, kind of guy, so I'm not surprised I can turn a happy tune into a sad one! I hear beauty and subtlety in these little pieces. However, I am aware (and others have very kindly pointed this out to me privately today) that my right hand has yet to develop the right kind of stylistic attack, hammering down on the string. This kind of attack will lead me to a more rhythmic approach to the music, more in keeping with the title 'Breakdown'. One of the difficulties I had developing a more vigorous stroke came from playing a small banjourine, with close string spacing for the right hand. However, my fretless Tradesman arrived just after I uploaded that video, and I am finding things a little easier. Things might be easier still on a 'proper' minstrel banjo, but that will have to wait.

 

I'm noticing that I find it much more comfortable to use my middle finger for the hammering style than my index. I know that all the original tutors mention the index as the finger of choice, but I know that some of you use the middle finger - well, I know that Bob Flesher does - or do you all use the index?

 

I would like to develop a rhythmical approach but not at the expense of neglecting the melodic subtleties. I might never attain such a goal, but the joy is in the trying.

 

Rob

[Carl Anderton]

Index finger vs. Middle finger

As you know, the Briggs, Rice, Buckley, and both of the '65 Converse
methods all specifically have the player using their index fingers of
the right hand. So, that would have to be the preferable way to go.

However...

Marty Leibschner sells a repro of an 1872 Sept. Winner Banjo method
book (I forget the title) that specifically says "second finger" when
describing the right hand attack. This caught my eye because I too am
more comfortable with the second or middle finger. And it made me
feel ok about doing so.

So much so that when I attended the first Antietam Early Banjo
Gathering, I had a copy of that page from the tutor with the part
about the second finger highlighted in yellow in the breast pocket of
my sack coat. Sure enough, no less a personage than Joe Ayers saw me
playing and told me to "quit using that middle finger." So I handed
him my sheet of paper.

He was not impressed. ;^*

On Sep 14, 11:48 am, "Rob MacKillop" <luteplay...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[Tim Twiss]

Winner must have changed his mind. The 1864 "Winner's New Primer For
The Banjo" states on page 18 that the manner striking the string is
with the first finger. But let's take a vote...all those who use the
first finger, indicate so by raising them in the air, and those who
use the second finger.....

> > Rob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Carl Anderton]

On Sep 14, 2:38 pm, Tim Twiss <milfordmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Winner must have changed his mind.

Yeah, he's a "flip-flopper."

The source is "Winner's Primary School for the Banjo," 1872. I put a
few examples up in the misc. section of The Clubhouse. It's not that
great a tutor, but it is what it is.

[Rob MacKillop]

And all those who use both...

 

I get the point. Try index first - if it works, keep it, if not, try the middle. Actually, I've just put a short false nail on my index finger and played for half an hour. I think I am closer to what I see Tim doing on his videos - closer than I was before, but not quite close enough. Working on it... I find it hard to curl inwards my other fingers. I've spent years playing lutes by gently planting my pinkie on the soundboard. A difficult habit to break.

 

Rob

2008/9/14 Tim Twiss <milfor...@comcast.net>

[Tim Twiss]

Yes...there is a case for either way. Obviously, as you check out
Carl Anderton.
As long as we are on it, I just wanted to share this. As a classical
guitarist, I kept well groomed nails for years (even after it was not
my main "thing" anymore). In one of those periods when I had broken or
ripped a nail, I took it down to grow out again, and was quite pleased
with the stroke banjo result. Now I have totally done away with nails,
and my attack includes part of the flesh tip of the finger which hits
the string after the initial strike of the nail. Love it. Can't keep
'em short enough.

[Carl Anderton]

On Sep 14, 3:26 pm, Tim Twiss <milfordmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Now I have totally done away with nails,
> and my attack includes part of the flesh tip of the finger which hits
> the string after the initial strike of the nail. Love it. Can't keep
> 'em short enough.

That rocks, dude. Sometimes when I grab the ol' cremona and a thimble
isn't handy, I play like that and tell myself that I must get used to
it. It never takes.

By the way, Rob, your little metal fingerpick turned backwards is not
incorrect. Metal fingerpicks or "thimbles" were common enough by the
1850's for the whole stroke-style to be referred to as "thimble
playing." That don't mean everyone used one all the time, but they
were doubtless common.

Whether or not the use of a modern pick vs. an accurate reproduction
makes you an apostate is between you and the ghost of Tom Briggs. I
get the sense that Tom is more worried about us learning the period
style correctly that he is about the type of thimble we employ.

[Tim Twiss]

Another spot....This pull-off, nail glide thing is interesting. In
"Ethiopian Cracovienne" M2, there is another spot like that where you
see a slur from D to F#. Using the "Rice pull-off" finally made that
passage playable (for me). I always chopped it up and could never get
it as a nail glide.

[trapdoor2]

Lovely video, Rob. Many of the "breakdowns", "Jigs" and "Reels" sound
great when played slowly and with some romanticisisisism...I didn't
know BB was one of them until now!

I'm an index player, though I can switch hit with my middle. I have
never been comfortable using the middle though and pretty much stick
with index whether playing Clawhammer or Minstrel.

These "less complex" tunes I usually play as medleys. My pet fiddler
and I usually play "Congo Prince Jig" followed by "Briggs
Breakdown"...that triplet figure keeps the pace down just a smidge but
works really well with the fiddle playing a shuffle figure.

===Marc

On Sep 13, 3:35 am, "Rob MacKillop" <luteplay...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[Tim Twiss]

Good comments Marc.
I don't know any other kind of music that sound so good with so many
different interpretations.

[Michael Randolph]

Joe Ayer's comment on using the index is noteworthy, since he's such a great player.  I didn't know of the controversy until now but have found the index finger works much better for me on a minstrel banjo, since I can apply more force to get a better sound. I've been a long time clawhammer player and, surprisingly perhaps, always use my middle finger for that.  I think the middle finger sounds better on the more modern steel string banjo, since it can sound harsh with the greater force of the index finger.  In short, I've found gut strings require more force (index finger) while steel strings call for a more delicate touch (middle finger). --- On Sun, 9/14/08, trapdoor2 <mads...@knology.net> wrote: