Some questions from a newbie

[nitroamos]

Hi all -- I've been exploring tiddlywiki for the first time today, and
of course, I want to make sure it meets my needs before I jump in. I'm
looking for a tool I can use as an electronic notebook, something I
can use to store all the graphs, tables, notes, links to papers for my
studies (in chemistry).

In my work, I produce a lot of graphs (almost all in pdf form, from
gnuplot), tables (from ms excel), and formulas (e.g. latexit, to jpg).
Furthermore, I have my own perl scripts to produce text data in a
terminal. I'd like to be able to copy and paste whatever I need easily
into a notebook.

I intend to just use this on my laptop, accessing files I store there.
Perhaps my concerns are addressed with certain pluggins. I use OSX and
Safari.

Questions:
1) I have been able to add pdf files to my tiddly, but it saves a hard
link, which i then have to wrap in a [[img[./file.pdf]].

a) Is there an easier way to get drag-drop functionality? it would be
nice if it automatically wrapped the file path in an img tag, *or* if
it could recognize file types, and automatically create a hot-link for
me, and my browser will figure out how to open it.

b) i end up saving my files on my desktop, which i'll then drag onto
the tiddly. however, eventually i'll not want them on my desktop
anymore. is there a way (a plugin perhaps) to "import" the file? that
is, save it in the same directory as the tiddly file, so that the file
is always there? or something equivalent? for example, when I import
music into itunes, it will copy it into it's own hierarchical
structure, and then i can delete the source file from my downloads
folder. as a bonus, it could maybe give the file a unique file name so
that i don't have to worry about renaming each file myself.

c) it would be nice if, for large images or graphs etc, to be able to
control whether that image is displayed or whether only a link is
shown. like a little [+] button to expand and look at it, and then [-]
to shrink it down so it doesn't fill my screen. is this possible?

2) It would be great if I could get it to cooperate with MS Excel,
both for plots and for tables. Ok, scratch this as a question, it
looks like there's already discussion in the group; i'll have to read
it.

3) Most of the text I'll be pasting requires a monospaced font. What's
the easiest way to do this? I would be willing to change the font of
the whole tiddly to affect this change, but only the pasted text is
necessary. I can't find a plugin for this.

Ok, these are enough for now.

thanks for any advice you care to provide!!

Amos.

[Amzg]

This may answer something about the monospaced text and possibly give
some leads to some of your other q's:
http://osmosoft.com/twredesign/#MonospacedText%20Examples

I believe tiddlytools.com has something about a drag-n-drop feature/
plugin.

Just curious, you say;

"I want to make sure it meets my needs before I jump in."

..what other solutions are you considering?

All best!

/Mat

[wolfgang]

Hi Amos,

> 1) I have been able to add pdf files to my tiddly, but it saves a hard
> link, which i then have to wrap in a [[img[./file.pdf]].
>
> a) Is there an easier way to get drag-drop functionality? it would be
> nice if it automatically wrapped the file path in an img tag, *or* if
> it could recognize file types, and automatically create a hot-link for
> me, and my browser will figure out how to open it.
>

Take a look at QuickEditPackage, which provides a file select button
for entering image links:

http:/www.TiddlyTools.com/#QuickEditPackage

Regards,

W.

[nitroamos]

Ok, maybe QuickEditPackage has what I'm looking for. So I'm starting
with the empty.html file, on Safari.

> Take a look at QuickEditPackage, which provides a file select button
> for entering image links:
>
> http:/www.TiddlyTools.com/#QuickEditPackage

I'm having some problems figuring out how to load some of the plugins.
For example, with the one you recommend, I give the URL to the
BackStage/Import function, and it lists ~100 tiddlies. The
QuickEditPackage is itself ~20 entries. Do I need to import all of
them? Or just one of them and it will figure out any dependencies?

So I got all the ones that start with QuickEdit, and only
QuickEditPackage, did all the edits you say, and then save and
restart. It tells me:

"Problems were encountered loading plugins. See PluginManager for
details"

but I don't see any error messages printed there, except that
QuickEditPlugin didn't load. Now, if I try to edit a tiddly, then I
get the following errors:

Error in macro <<resizeEditor>>Error in macro <<setUserName>>
Error in macro <<preview>>

I assume that's relevant, but I don't know what to do about it.

What am I doing wrong? Perhaps there's a dependency I don't know
about?

[Anthony Muscio]

A Few tips,

Check out martins formatters;

http://martinswiki.com/

and search for "tiddlywiki latex"

Use inline HTML and any related HTML Tools that do what you want

In someways tiddlySnip may be better than drag and drop, as well as

endTo Clipboard coolness (TiddlyWiki links to your files)

Regards Tony
anything is possible with TiddlyWiki

--
Anthony Muscio

[nitroamos]

> Just curious, you say;
> "I want to make sure it meets my needs before I jump in."
>
> ..what other solutions are you considering?

Plain old paper? Drag-n-drop = print-n-paste. :-)

[Eric Shulman]

On Aug 20, 6:32 pm, nitroamos <nitroa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > http:/www.TiddlyTools.com/#QuickEditPackage
> I'm having some problems figuring out how to load some of the plugins.
> For example, with the one you recommend, I give the URL to the
> BackStage/Import function, and it lists ~100 tiddlies.

There's actually over 450 tiddlers on TiddlyTools.com

> The QuickEditPackage is itself ~20 entries. Do I need to import all of
> them? Or just one of them and it will figure out any dependencies?

All the relevant tiddlers are tagged with "QuickEditPackage".
Unfortunately, the TW built-in backage import does not currently have
a select-by-tag function, so
you will need to select all of the tagged tiddlers yourself.

Fortunately, there is an alternative importer available that provides
an interactive control panel for selecting tiddlers using a multi-
select listbox:
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#ImportTiddlersPlugin
Using this control panel, you can sort the list of tiddlers by tags
and then click on the QuickEditPackage "section heading" in the
listbox to select everything with that tag. Then press the import
button to actually import all the selected tiddlers.

> So I got all the ones that start with QuickEdit, and only
> QuickEditPackage, did all the edits you say, and then save and
> restart. It tells me:
>
> "Problems were encountered loading plugins. See PluginManager for
> details"
>
> but I don't see any error messages printed there, except that
> QuickEditPlugin didn't load.

That's odd. If there's no error messages, how do you know that
QuickEditPlugin didn't load? Can you report *exactly* what you *do*
see...

Now, if I try to edit a tiddly, then I
> get the following errors:
> Error in macro <<resizeEditor>>Error in macro <<setUserName>>
> Error in macro <<preview>>

It sounds like you've accidentally imported the [[EditTemplate]] from
TiddlyTools. Although this template needs to be customized to
properly install the QuickEditPackage, the template itself is not
specifically a part of the QuickEditPackage.

Although it is often helpful to look at the TiddlyTools templates
(i.e., PageTemplate, ViewTemplate, and EditTemplate) to see how a
particular plugin's customizations are added, it is generally not such
a good idea to actually import those customized templates directly
into your own documents

The problem is that these templates contain a combination of many
different customizations that depend upon numerous TiddlyTools
plugins. If you import and use these TiddlyTools-specific templates
in your own document, you can easily get the kind of "no such macro"
errors that you are seeing, since some of the needed TiddlyTools
plugins may not have been installed in that document.

Of course, you can still use the TiddlyTools EditTemplate as a guide
for what kinds of changes to make, but instead of importing the
complete EditTemplate from TiddlyTools, you should actually make all
the template changes yourself, so you can be certain that only those
customizations that you really want are installed.

To fix your current problem, start by deleting (or at least renaming)
the EditTemplate that you have installed from TiddlyTools. This will
allow the shadow (default) definition to be automatically re-applied.

Next, open the shadow EditTemplate (see more>shadowed tab) and edit it
to add the individual customizations needed for the QuickEditToolbar.
A brief outline of the basic installation steps is contained in the
QuickEditPackage tiddler.

Basically, you need to insert the following line to embed the
QuickEdit toolbar in the EditTemplate:
<div macro='tiddler QuickEditToolbar'></div>
and also insert the following line to embed a tiddler command item
that toggles the display of the QuickEdit toolbar:
<span class='toolbar' macro='toolbar toggleQuickEdit'></span>

In addition, if you don't want to have *all* the different QuickEdit
functions installed, you can remove some of the toolbar buttons by
editing the QuickEditToolbar tiddler. Find the lines that read:
<<tiddler QuickEdit_...>>. Each one corrresponds to one more more
QuickEdit toolbar buttons. Simply edit QuickEditToolbar to remove the
references to functions that you don't want, and then you can also
remove the corrresponding QuickEdit_* tiddler.

The QuickEditPackage installation guidelines also suggest a way to
install just a single QuickEdit toolbar command directly into the
normal tiddler toolbar, by inserting something like the following into
the EditTemplate:
<span class='toolbar' macro='tiddler QuickEdit_image'></span>

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

[nitroamos]

I've decided that VooDoo Pad (VPD) meets my needs better than
TiddlyWiki (see my list of needs at the top of this thread).
http://flyingmeat.com/voodoopad/

I realize that some of you perhaps do not consider VPD to be a
competitor. Of course TiddlyWiki is a better option for people with a
certain list of requirements, but I'm approaching this from my
perspective, obviously. Tiddlywiki and Voodoo pad were the top two of
my list of options.

So, I figure that as a courtesy, I should provide some feedback.

Advantages for VDP (a mac osx program):
1) Interfaces very nicely with almost all applications I use. I can
drag-drop excel, it interfaces perfectly with LatexIt, it accepts data
from the clipboard and interprets it automagically as a tiff if it
doesn't know about the software. This is a *key* feature for me, since
if it's not super easy to use, I won't use it at all and stick with a
paper notebook.

2) It took me very little time to figure out how to use most of VDP's
features since they were quite intuitive.

3) It's a regular OSX application, and therefore has all the services
that an OS can offer.

Disadvantages for TiddlyWIki:
1) I spent several hours trying to figure out TiddlyWiki. I don't
think a new user for your software should be expected to figure out
plugins to get the basic features. So I think as a community you
should do some more work consolidating plugins. Certainly a learning
curve is acceptable if the rewards are sufficient (e.g. latex), so
this isn't a deal-killer, but it certainly helps.

2) The interface isn't intuitive. I think this is just the result of
JavaScript versus OSX API. So you have an immediate disadvantage just
by starting. I don't know that there's a lot you can do about this.
You could start by loading functionality into the right-mouse-button-
menu. Of course the point for tiddlywiki is that you can keep yours
online, but that's not what I want. Most of you probably consider this
an unfair comparison, but I hope you'll agree that a broad diversity
of appeal and utility is desirable.

3) I don't know JavaScript (and I'm not planning on learning it), so I
feel like I'm coming in with a disadvantage. I can't customize
anything on my own. Saying things like "anything is possible with
TiddlyWiki" is missing the point for everybody except power-users. I
*want* to remain agnostic about the underpinnings.

Advantages for Tiddlywiki:
1) Your community support is the best for any software I've had to ask
questions to figure out (actually not many). Certainly, this is one of
the best aspects of open source.

2) You're headed in the right direction. You have all the
underpinnings to meet my needs.


thanks for your consideration!
Amos.

[Amzg]

Just one of the small guys here, but still I hope not the only one
appreciating your generous input. Thank you - it's a sobering read. As
an end user, your frankness on the "right" to remain ignorant about
programming is, in fact, admirable - because it is surely a
representative opinion among several potential TW users. Due to my own
lacks in coding, yet still a desire to contribute, I mainly keep a "UI
perspective". Your post provides much value for this angle. Thank you!

/Mat

On Aug 22, 8:35 pm, nitroamos <nitroa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've decided that VooDoo Pad (VPD) meets my needs better than

> TiddlyWiki (see my list of needs at the top of this thread).http://flyingmeat.com/voodoopad/

[Jeremy Ruston]

Yes, indeed, thank you for the thoughtful and interesting feedback,
and a great discussion. This point about the difference between web
applications and native applications is interesting. I'd have to agree
that there are significant aspects of native applications that
browsers just can't match at the moment, but there are interesting
developments with Mozilla and Safari that could help TiddlyWiki narrow
that gap substantially.

Cheers

Jeremy

--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
http://www.tiddlywiki.com

[wolfgang]

Thanks for the feedback, Amos,

your pointing out of TiddlyWiki's blind spots is very useful for
drawing a clear line of distinction to regular installable software at
this time. Which for me also brings to light where TiddlyWiki is ahead
of anything else. And possibly an inspiration for new functionality to
come forth.

Of course, for you're objective VPD //is// the favorite number one, no
doubt. Really no competition there.


Below some of my thoughts about the 3th disadvantage you see for
TiddlyWiki:

> 3) I don't know JavaScript (and I'm not planning on learning it), so I
> feel like I'm coming in with a disadvantage. I can't customize
> anything on my own. Saying things like "anything is possible with
> TiddlyWiki" is missing the point for everybody except power-users. I
> *want* to remain agnostic about the underpinnings.

I hesitated to jump in since I felt such a disadvantage as an
illiterate to any programing language too. An application where it
seemed that one had to learn a scripting language like javascript
couldn't be something for an average user. And I was in a real bad
shape, didn't even knew plain html or css!

Then I couldn't resist the temptation any longer to break away from
the given rails usual software rides - and took the jump into the
world of this small and self sufficient html file - which seems to
promise so much more adaptability to my specific needs and whims than
anything else I knew.

One year later I still don't know any javascript, css or html syntax
to write! (other than my exceptional copy and paste abilities ;-) -
And I intentionally still don't want to become a programmer for simply
using some of the potential of an application.

Here is where the real magic spell of TiddlyWiki comes in for me.
Though I still can't write //any// javascript, html or css out of my
own (and due to my egocentricity to insist on remaining a 'user') -
it's just so amazing what I could create without really understanding
much of the underlying mechanics!
If I wouldn't know it better - I would have to assume I'm actually
programing. lol

For example, my recent employer pays a company to continually develop
a custom database application for all kind of data and documentation
of clients. And after already years of paid software development it's
still so much more stupid and complicated to use than what I created
alongside with TiddlyWiki in just a few weeks (which, of course,
wouldn't have been possible without the generous help here at
GoogleGroups, especially for in-depth abilities of
ForEachTiddlerPlugin - and on the other side ineptness at the
interface to my employers software producer).

Or take for example a look at this TiddlyWiki: http://change.tiddlyspot.com/download
Though with this I intentionally pushed TiddlyWiki's abilities in
terms of size (3.7 MB) and performance lag. I swear - I still don't
understand it any other than recognizing different patterns of letter
strings for adjusting templates, styles and macro calls by trial and
error - compared to an alien language it would boil down to the
knowledge of maybe only a hundred words.

However in the final analysis - accustoming oneself to TiddlyWiki for
creating highly specific functions with a set of plugins, scripts,
styles and templates - as your desired application needs - could
become a real time killer and obsession for some time. In itself and
it's basic functionality as a mobile note taking device it would
remain beautifully simple in every respect - if there wouldn't be
those endless possibilities and so much fun exploring them...

If I consider the low level of basic computer literacy even at working
places where one wonders how it could have functioned without
computers in less then a generation ago - in my case social work - I
guess ready made applications will always remain mainstream and
TiddlyWiki for only a few bewitched, no doubt (well, maybe I am
totally wrong and in only 1-2 years the dream comes true: choosing all
the ingredient one needs of TiddlyWiki universe and clicking a 'cook'
button - voila).

Nevertheless, its really nice to hear that installable software, as
for example VPD, is becoming more flexible and therefore more fun to
use too. (no mac here to try it out though :-(

Thanks for your input again,

W.

[nitroamos]

I do know how to program. I'm mainly familiar with C++, Java, and
perl, all used for writing scientific software for my degree, and so I
can sort of understand any code. However, I assume that the target
audience for tiddlywiki is more general.

I like customizing things too... but for some things, I just want it
to work without fiddling. You have to pick your battles.


Be assured, I'll be back again though. Someday I'll want to set up a
blog that's more flexible than google's blogger.

Amos.

[FND]

> Yes, indeed, thank you for the thoughtful and interesting feedback

I second that - thanks for taking the time to write this up.

> I spent several hours trying to figure out TiddlyWiki.

I think we all agree that TiddlyWiki is in desperate need of more
exhaustive and coherent documentation, and the UI also needs some work
to improve usability.

I'm confident the latter is gonna happen in due time - as for the
former, we're gradually collecting content on the community wiki*, and
hopefully that'll evolve into a proper reference documentation.

> you should do some more work consolidating plugins

Something like this is in the works.

> I don't know JavaScript (and I'm not planning on learning it), so I
> feel like I'm coming in with a disadvantage. I can't customize
> anything on my own.

That's a common problem - though it is sort of a misconception.
Essentially, there are a few different levels to using TiddlyWiki:

* creating content - no technical knowledge required (apart from
learning wiki markup, which I don't regard as a major obstacle)

* using macros - this can be a bit confusing sometimes, depending on the
complexity of the respective macro

* customizing appearance - requires some HTML and/or CSS knowledge
to be fair though, hardly any native apps allow this level of
customization in the first place

* scripting - requires JavaScript knowledge
this enables complete control for advanced functionality - it is
comparable to writing scripts in office applications (e.g. MS Excel);
regular users don't need to worry about it

However, in TiddlyWiki the boundary between these tiers is often not
obvious, which often leads to the perception of overwhelming complexity.

-- F.

* http://www,tiddlywiki.org

[iain]

I agree that this is an interesting and useful thread.

I am not new to TW but I still feel that it is a bit alien to me. I
can see its potential but I sometimes feel like I am building one of
those Airfix kits - I have a box of bits and some glue and a rather
vague instruction sheet and some point the Bismarck or a Spitfire will
emerge - perhaps.

I have tinkered and mucked around with things and maybe something
useful for me is emerging but it has taken time (at least 12 months)
and is frustrating and I am amassing a small folder of sheets
explaining what I have done so I can recreate the final result if
disaster strikes and my formatted plugged in TW is lost.

There is a need for some mature TW applications that are up-to-date
and are well documented. So that potential users can get started with
using the tool rather than building the tool. this is the biggest
problem with TW.

There is a need for plugins to be better documented and explained with
examples of what they do and how to get them to do it once loaded in a
TW. Some plugins seem to rely on the user to channel the originators
thoughts through the internet.

Dave Gifford seems to stand out for his interest writing in TW for
Dummies and of course this group is a mine of information and
assistance. I learn best by asking someone - how do you do this and
being in Sydney (not in Paris) the TW group seems to be the only
source of reasonably quick help.

[Eric Weir]

On 8/24/2008 iain wrote:

> There is a need for some mature TW applications that are up-to-date
> and are well documented. So that potential users can get started with
> using the tool rather than building the tool. this is the biggest
> problem with TW.

Yeah, far be it for me, an absolute, total, nonprogramming newbie, to
speak up, but here I am doing it. I wonder if rather than -- or maybe in
addition to; but probably of higher priority -- a repository of plugins
what might be needed is just exactly what the guy -- I've lost track of
his name -- who started this thread was looking for: an application.
Only it wouldn't be an application. It would be many applications.

Of course, the amazing versatility and adaptability of TW would remain,
but that very versatility and adaptability appears to me to indicate the
potential for creating a range of standard applications for a variety of
purposes. This could be done collaboratively, in much the way it appears
that the recent updating of TiddlyWiki.com was carried out. Somebody
proposes an idea for an application, or requests one, and those who have
an interest and believe they can help pitch in. Working together, with
lots of iterative, back-and-forth checking with potential users, a
relatively stable application eventually emerges.

Easy for me to say, when I couldn't help at all, except, when the
prospective application is one that piques my interest, by suggesting
features and giving feedback. There are a couple of applications things,
things I'm not even sure are possible, that I'd like to see.

Regards,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net