Do you guys want another Tiddly app for Android?

[Adithya B M]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to the group but have been using TiddlyWiki as a song repository for a few years now.

I made a functional Tiddy app for a bit a year back which could work with dropbox/googledrive sync. Is there anyone interested in such an app?
If yes, I will try to cleanit up and release or open-source.

Cheers,

Adithya

[Mark S.]

What version of Android was it made for? From Android 5 and on, Google made changes to their security model so you can't just access a file directory path any more (except for local storage). There were actually changes at almost every version from 5 to 9, with inconsistent documentation along the way.

I assume people are happy with Tiddloid, which is one reason I haven't kept up with Quinoid. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

[TW Tones]

Adithya,

The Tiddlywiki apps seem quite good especially for those with one or more tiddlywikis, although a dream would be an app template that one could install a single file wiki into it and distribute/publish that as an app.

Basically an app that is a template for app'ifying tiddlywikis.

• A lot can be done in tiddlywiki and if enthusiasts could develop an app in tiddlywiki suitable for mobiles and tablets and load an app shell with it, it would be great.
• We can use the self distributed apps, but perhaps some tiddlywiki solutions could be distributed as apps in the app stores, where the tiddlywiki is merely one file in the configuration and not accessible to the app user except through the intended functionality.
• A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right.
• It need not handle multiple wikis, that is the point - an app defined by the functionality within a single tiddlywiki.

All out current apps have different strengths, ideally we can;

• Paste links and contents via share into the app and thus a tiddler.
• Obtain the GPS location
• Backup user content in the tiddlywiki to a file on the device of a shared drive.
• Obtain or refresh or upgrade the inner wiki from an internet address.
• More I am sure.

Regards

Tony

[Adithya B M]

Hi Tony,

We can use the self distributed apps, but perhaps some tiddlywiki solutions could be distributed as apps in the app stores, where the tiddlywiki is merely one file in the configuration and not accessible to the app user except through the intended functionality

By the above do you mean an app which shows native android ui and uses TiddlyWiki as a storage medium? 

A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right.

This is not a problem.

To help me understand this problem better, can you point me to any current apps which can benefit from building this native ui around?

Adithya

[Mat]

Adithya B M wrote:

A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right.

This is not a problem.

If there was a TW plugin or similar that could remake a TW to become an app for the app stores... so people who create various application specific TWs could very easily publish them there... well that would definitely open up a totally new world for the TW project.

 

To help me understand this problem better, can you point me to any current apps which can benefit from building this native ui around?

 

If you by "current apps" refer to applications built in TW then isn't a plain and empty TW the prime example? It would be super cool if people could go into the app stores and install a TW via there. (It should probably not be a totally empty TW - the GettingStarted tiddler should perhaps include links to tiddlywiki.com and this discussion forum etc, but that's a detail.)

<:-)

[Adithya B M]

If you by "current apps" refer to applications built in TW then isn't a plain and empty TW the prime example? It would be super cool if people could go into the app stores and install a TW via there. (It should probably not be a totally empty TW - the GettingStarted tiddler should perhaps include links to tiddlywiki.com and this discussion forum etc, but that's a detail.)

If I understand that currently, wouldn't it be the same as going into Tiddloid and clicking on new Tiddly? (But simpler - yes) 

Will such an effort help?

Adithya

[Mat]

@Adithya

I probably confused myself in my answer to you, possibly because of TWTones/Tonys mention of app stores and your reply to it that 

| A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right. 

This is not a problem.

I see three different "levels" in this and I'm not sure which one you're thinking about:

level 1: A TW made smoothly runnable on an Android device, probably via some added programme (I believe this is what Tiddloid is/does)

level 2: A TW (template) ready made for putting up on the app stores, presumably after the user has modified it to add tiddler content/features.

level 3: A programme that can convert TWs so they become ready for putting up on the app stores (TWTones/Tony expressed it above as "Basically an app that is a template for app'ifying tiddlywikis.") - OR a TW that can produce TWs that are ready for putting up on the app stores.

Further when you ask for "current apps" it is not clear if you mean something that is already an actual app (but why would you then "redo" it?) or if you mean some specific application of TW, e.g the empty edition or, say, the Resume Builder edition - but these are "just TiddlyWikis" so why would you want to build only for a particular such application/edition?

In summary: I clearly don't understand your question ;-)

...still, obviously, it is very generous of you to offer whatever it is you're offering!

<:-)

[Eric Shulman]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 9:57:46 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

Adithya B M wrote:

A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right.

This is not a problem.

If there was a TW plugin or similar that could remake a TW to become an app for the app stores... so people who create various application specific TWs could very easily publish them there... well that would definitely open up a totally new world for the TW project.

Adobe PhoneGap (https://phonegap.com/) is a developer utility that can produce apps for Android or iPhone, built from HTML/CSS/Javascript source files (along with any image resources they use).  This is ideal for taking a single-file TiddlyWiki and wrapping it up to be a "native" app for your mobile platform.

They have an online version of the utility here: https://build.phonegap.com/.  Basically, you just upload your resources to their site (or give them a link to a GitHub repository), and they do all the heavy lifting on their server, and create downloadable apps for Android or iOS (or even WindowsPhone!), ready-to-install.  They also have an extensive library of platform-specific add-on code to enable access to various bits of phone hardware (camera, GPS, etc.)

-e

[Eric Shulman]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:41:00 AM UTC-7, Eric Shulman wrote:

Adobe PhoneGap (https://phonegap.com/) is a developer utility that can produce apps for Android or iPhone, built from HTML/CSS/Javascript source files (along with any image resources they use).  This is ideal for taking a single-file TiddlyWiki and wrapping it up to be a "native" app for your mobile platform.

For Android using Chrome browser (and possibly others), you can just open any single-file TiddlyWiki HTML file, and it will run in the mobile Chrome browser, just like any other web page.

If you then use the "save to desktop" menu item in Android Chrome, it will create an "app" icon directly on your tablet/phone home screen.  When you launch from this icon, Chrome opens the HTML in a bare-bones wrapper that doesn't include the usual tabs, bookmarks, and URL input controls.  The effect is that, except for the standard Android status bar at the top, the entire screen shows the TiddlyWiki content... and, if you use the "toggle full screen" button from the TW sidebar (see "Tools" tab) then even the Android status line disappears and you get *all* of the screen for TiddlyWiki display, with *no* extra stuff at all.

One additional note: by default, mobile Chrome doesn't support use of drag-and-drop handling (but it does include "pinch zoom" behavior).  Fortunately, there is a plugin in the TiddlyWiki Official Plugin Library that adds standard drag-and-drop handling capability even when using mobile Chrome.  Search the plugin library for "mobile" and you will find $:/plugins/tiddlywiki/mobiledragdrop.

-e

[Mat]

Eric Shulman wrote:

If you then use the "save to desktop" menu item in Android Chrome, it will create an "app" icon directly on your tablet/phone home screen.

Just tried it and that is terrific! Great tip! 

Would doing this in PhoneGap bring any particular advantage over that super simple "save to desktop" way? Or is it perhaps also a distribution platform like the app stores? Or maybe the "packaging" it enables is for the well known app stores?

Also, my previous experiences with Adobe always ended with "darn that's expensive" - is this not the case for PhoneGap?

P.S Adithya - do object if you think we're hijackign your thread.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

Eric Shulman wrote:

If you then use the "save to desktop" menu item in Android Chrome, it will create an "app" icon directly on your tablet/phone home screen.

Just tried it and that is terrific! Great tip!

But, that won't let you save, will it?

[Eric Shulman]

Just tested on mobile Chrome on Android.  Using "default download saver" worked.  Automatically saved to "Downloads > tiddlywiki.html" 

...and, just like on Desktop Chrome, if you go to Chrome "three dots" menu, choose "Settings", then "Downloads", you can set

"Ask where to save files" to "on", it will ask you to enter a target filename (defaults to "tiddlywiki.html") and choose a location

(defaults to "Downloads")

-e

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

But, that won't let you save, will it?

I am, as usual, saving to tiddlyspot which worked fine. Didn't try on local. I noted that the page you see is still on the web, not on local, so I kind of assumed it was the usual tiddlyspot for me but just with a non-interfering browser.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

Using tiddlyspot kind of misses the point of having a TW based android app. 

[Eric Shulman]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 2:43:00 PM UTC-7, Mark S. wrote:

Using tiddlyspot kind of misses the point of having a TW based android app. 

To run TW locally as an Android "pseudo-app":

* open the online hosted TW (e.g., from TiddlySpot)

* use the "default download saver" to write a local copy to "Downloads"

* open that local copy on your tablet

* use mobile Chrome menu to "save to Desktop"

* you can now open the local copy from your tablet home screen and it runs without showing the usual browser controls (no tabs/bookmarks/URL input)

-e 

[TW Tones]

Adithya

We can use the self distributed apps, but perhaps some tiddlywiki solutions could be distributed as apps in the app stores, where the tiddlywiki is merely one file in the configuration and not accessible to the app user except through the intended functionality

By the above do you mean an app which shows native android ui and uses TiddlyWiki as a storage medium? 

I am suggesting that tiddlywiki is the development platform and the result is placed in a wrapper that can be installed as an application and placed in the app store. Installed from the appstore or apk? file the app its in the app tray, can be installed and removed like any other app, but unlike the existing apps one pre-configured tiddlywiki (file) is at its heart. Since the save mechanisium saves back to the html file then yes it holds the storage.

Finished solutions are easier if they are independent and stand alone. 

 

A challenge would be to be able to have such apps recognised by the app stores as an app in its own right.

This is not a problem.

To help me understand this problem better, can you point me to any current apps which can benefit from building this native ui around?

Well, the simple answer is no, no current apps, because such an opportunity has not being available. The tiddlywiki's that could be deployed this way may be inside peoples browsers or their head. You can see examples of tiddlywiki and editions all over the place but few have being designed for mobile.

An example for me is I am building a personal phone based journal, exercise, meditation and medication app I use personally. I use it through an existing tiddlywiki android app and it works for me. However if I could publish it as an app in its own right it would make sense to refine it for publication. That is there are many opportunities sitting in waiting to become apps.

I would love to hear others viewpoint but I think bundled apps in app stores are a possible avenue for tiddlywiki community members to publish and potentially earn something for their efforts. Acknowledging tiddlywiki and sharing key developments with the community as usual.

I you were to follow this approach more needs to be discussed,

• Unedited copy of the embedded tiddlywiki for clear/restore changes
• Ability to upgrade through a url embedded in the wiki to the latest release.
• and more

Regards

Tony

 

[Lin Onetwo]

I don't think it is necessary to publish every small TW as APP, because you can just add a service worker https://onetwo.ren/wiki/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Flinonetwo%2Fservice-worker

Then this wiki can be installed as a PWA.

I'm recently consider building a RN app (for Android and iOS) to start nodejs wiki in mobile phone, and sync wiki folder to github to backup it.

[Corey S]

AndTidWiki is still working for me, saving locally.

Do we *have* to go through the Google Play store?

What about F-Droid? I got my NewPipe Youtube viewer from there. Works very well.

AndTidWiki+ is the only other thing that comes close and its $3.50.

I don't use Tiddlywiki much anymore, so I'm probably missing something important in this regard, where do you get Tiddloid?

NVM found it on Github, you need to use the QR code to download and install it? Need some better discoverability.

I like the link with Tiddly Desktop. That's my method of accessing my wikis. I'm not beholden to the whims of companies that have no concept of Tiddlywiki.

Imma try this one out.

[Adithya B M]

Tony, 

I see the value in what you're suggesting. I am however limited by my understanding of how TiddlyWiki operates. 

Some questions I will try to figure out the answer to in the next few weeks:
1) How exactly will the android container facilitate a TW upgrade?

2) I would like the functionality to share something in android and add it as a tiddler. How will the android container do this?

Adithya

[Hubert]

Hi,

Apologies for not responding to the most recent post, just something to note:

One additional note: by default, mobile Chrome doesn't support use of drag-and-drop handling (but it does include "pinch zoom" behavior).  Fortunately, there is a plugin in the TiddlyWiki Official Plugin Library that adds standard drag-and-drop handling capability even when using mobile Chrome.  Search the plugin library for "mobile" and you will find $:/plugins/tiddlywiki/mobiledragdrop.

Drag and drop DOES actually work out of the box on mobile, at least on Chrome/Chromium (so Tiddloid Lite as well), but not in Firefox. I was quite amazed when I've first seen that, it may have been a change to Webview or something that made it possible.

Upon seeing this, I've immediately retired all my list sort buttons and now I solely rely on drag and drop for this, whether on mobile or desktop. See my original post here.

Thanks,

Hubert

[Riz]

Being on the subject, I think cloud sync could be a welcome feature, as long as local sync is also enabled.

Also if anyone could work on a native editor interface for tiddlywiki on small screens that would be awesome.

[TW Tones]

Adithya

As other have noted more features all already demonstrated in the other apps one way or the other. This idea is just a different way to package tiddlywiki as an app.

I see the value in what you're suggesting. I am however limited by my understanding of how TiddlyWiki operates. 

Lean on me and the community here to learn more.

Some questions I will try to figure out the answer to in the next few weeks:
1) How exactly will the android container facilitate a TW upgrade?

First, An application would act as a shell containing a single html file. One of the android apps has a fork facility. You can provide the link to tiddlywiki.com and it downloads the whole wiki into the app. The latest version can be published online, new users get the latest loaded when first using the app according to a hard coded internet address. All their changes are saved in the local copy, and the designer can build an update package that the local wiki can access to update their local copy. This could leverage existing plugin update processes and/or the library mechanism. Basically a pull to update, but a rudimentary way to message the app could be developed to announce and update available. This is all in tiddlywiki, not the proposed app.

Core updates would be a little more complex but doable. 

 

What is important to note here the app should not need updating much it is the content in the html that needs this option.

 

2) I would like the functionality to share something in android and add it as a tiddler. How will the android container do this?

This has being done as others account, you can import pdf and images and more. It may be tricky to import images etc... as external and a single file tiddlywiki would not want too much embedded content.

So to be clear This is what I imagine.

• An Android app that is a shell that can present a single file tiddlywiki to use.
• Accepts shares, can access GPS (already), can import content on the phone (all already done), links to the default browser etc...
• In this case however a designer builds their single file wiki and posts it online for example a personal journaling tool
• They encode the app with the link to this wiki and generate an apk (or what ever) with this hardcoded address. 
• The app can be placed in the app store as its branding suggests eg "personal Journal"
• On installation the app either uses the embeded wiki file, or ideally goes to the coded address and downloads the latest copy. 
• Thus updates to the embedded wiki will be distributed to new users on initialisation.
• Once setup the user just uses the app according to the design of its embedded wiki. 
• In someways this replicates the functions of Progressive WebApps.
• The HTML file saves its self on the local device through the app.
• Import export and backups can be built inside the tiddlywiki or facilitated by the app.

In future a way for a tiddlywiki to poll a internet address for possible updates on launch can be developed, the app need only, "not stand in tiddlywikis way".

A final note, I would pay to have this facility. and if I had a successful app I would pay more.

Regards

TW Tones.