Use of TS in workgroup environment

[Handoko Suwono]

I am preparing a paper presentation of TS for use in WG environment like in a classroom or in a collaborative group. I know it had been discussed elsewhere and I am trying to gather more suggestions for the issue. I am thinking of the following,

- start with new space for demo purposes
- making suited titles, top menu and available themes
- explaining TS components, like how to include spaces and how will it affect your space, or how to explain 'include' will work as plugins
- putting embedded comments in TS
- lot of new terminologies to explain

Possible novice askings would be,
- why we use TS for collaboration issue
- how does TS compare with other CMS like wordpress which is more known

I would also need a TS/TW logo to be put in their site.

Any further suggestion or correction is much appreciated.

Handoko -

[Handoko Suwono]

Following and replying in TS

I am sorry for another noob question.

Could someone help elaborate more on using "following" or "replying" in TiddySpace. I need some more documentation to explain and have it demoed in a certain space since I am using it for a collaborative work in a small workgroup. I need to explain in a more simpler language to other members of the group.

Other link spaces would be very much helpful.

Handoko -

from ChrisDent:
> TiddlySpace has a feature called "following" or "replying" which
> encourages a style of disjoint collaboration over a topic using
> tiddlers with the same name but in different spaces. I write a
> tiddler with my thoughts on "Evolution", you write one as well.
> Using tags and other techniques those tiddlers are joined together
> and I'm able to be aware of your thoughts on the topic. They may
> influence mine, leading me to evolve my "Evolution" tiddler.

[PMario]

On Friday, February 21, 2014 2:42:14 AM UTC+1, Handoko Suwono wrote:

Could someone help elaborate more on using "following" or "replying" in TiddySpace. I need some more documentation to explain and have it demoed in a certain space since I am using it for a collaborative work in a small workgroup. I need to explain in a more simpler language to other members of the group.

"following" is a mechanism, that is similar to twitter or facebook following.

Setup:
 - You need to include the space named: "following" into your space. This will include the needed plugins and templates.

Following a space:

To follow a space you just need to create a tiddler eg: @pmario    and tag it:   follow
 - So the above setting would follow my space.
 - You can see who I follow if you visit my space [2]. The link shows a list of tiddlers I did tag follow.

 - if you included the space: "following", there will be a new tiddler named: Activity.  
   - If you open this tidder, it will get a list of all public tiddlers from users / spaces you follow.

 - So if you want to get my attention, you create a public tiddler in your space and tag it: @pmario
   - So if I follow you, I get a "highlighted" list element in my activity stream.
 - If I want to get your attention I would create a public tiddler in my space and tag it with @YourUsername
   - If you follow me, you will get a highlighted list element ....

There is also a possibility to see if any user tagged a public tiddler with a username eg: @pmario. So you don't need to follow everyone, just to see if they want to get your attention ... I use the <<tscan...>> macro [1] to get a list of tiddlers that are tagged @pmario

The "following" space also contains some more usefull plugins.
eg:
- <<following>> .. tells you who someone is following
- <<followers>> .. can tell you, who follows whom

Some more info can be found at the "following" space [3]

---------------

The reply mechanism is meant for "communication" in a TS setting. ... But the way it implemented is quite different, to what users are used to ...

Let me explain:
In a "standard" eg Wordpress setting the owner of a blog may allow visitors to post comments "into" the blog owners space - database.
 - So if I visit your blog, and you did enable comments, I can write my comments to your database or "pollute" it with spam if I'd be evil.
 - This setting imo has at least 2 disadvantages.
   a) You need to take care that you filter spam and "rude" comments. Which is a lot of work.
   b) I'm not the owner of my comments any more, because they are on your server in your database and you are in control of it.
 - So most people don't care about a) and b) .. may be they like spam or like to deal with it. I don't know.

How is TS different

 - You have to create a space with your user-name. At this space you have "full access". So with default settings, you only can write to your own spaces.
 - If you want to reply to one of my tiddlers, you give it the same name and tag it with eg: @pmario. So I can see it. "That's basically the TS reply mechanism"
 - If I care about it, I create a filter, that "pulls" your public content into my space and it can be seen there.
 - If I don't care ... I don't

See some examples:
  I use a tiddler named "Topics" that show a list of my tiddlers, where I do pull content from other spaces
  "Some more following thoughts" is one of them. [4]

The advantage here is, that I have control over my content and you stay in control of yours. Because your tiddler lives in your space, you can modify it or even remove it. ... If I decide I don't like your tiddler, I just exclude it from the list on my space. ... This mechanism is different, to what we are used to ....

eg:
In a wordpress setting, if I'd remove your comment on my blog, because I think it is rude, you could say I'm a moron, because you did take your time to post something valuable and I did destroy it at will. In a wordpress setting, you would be right, because I did violate your right, to own and express your thoughts. So imo the "design" is broken here. ...  For me there is an "ethical" dilemma - If I want to respect your rights and if I want respect "free speech", I can't remove your comment. Even if it conflicts with my personal opinion (which is _my_ right). .... Can you see it .... Either you loose or I loose. ...

In a TS setting this is different.

 - Your comments are stored on your space. You can do with them what ever you want.
 - I'm in command of my space, and I can decide, what is shown there or not. 

So imo we both win. You can write what ever you think about my "blog post" and I can decide, if I list it on my space or not. ... No dilema, we are both in command of our content.

There are 2 problems with the TS reply mechanism.

 - There is no good UI, that let's you create a "traditional" discussion group / forum, with a "hierarchical" structure.
     - probably, because TS isn't designed to be a discussion group.
     - With the existing UI, it actually isn't possible.

 - The TS mechanism doesn't allow anonymous posts, in a default setting. So that's why users seem to refuse it.


I think, we just didn't explore the TS possibilities enough. ... There is a very simple way to create a "news"  or "what's new" system with TS [5]. Which imo could be interesting for your usecase. 

TS allows us to be the "owner" of our content, which is very rare in the web atm. But this ownership has a price: responsibility. TS makes it clear by design. You can't post to someone elses space, if you are not a member of this space. So your posts will stay in your space!
....
May be we are not willing to pay this price or we are just not used to it ;) But that's a different topic.

have fun!
-mario

[1] http://pmario.tiddlyspace.com/#Attention
[2] http://pmario.tiddlyspace.com/#follow
[3] http://following.tiddlyspace.com/#TabFollowing%20%5B%5BHow%20to%20use%20the%20activity%20feed%5D%5D
[4] http://pmario.tiddlyspace.com/#Topics%20%5B%5BSome%20more%20following%20thoughts%5D%5D%20Attention%20Activity
[5] http://news.tiddlyspace.com/

[Handoko Suwono]

Thanks so much for your great help, Mario. You are always in when I
need. Very extensive and informative on how to use "following" and
"replying" in TS. I am still working on the replying part and those
are really interesting on 'how to differ TS and other CMS' like
wordpress. I will post again when I am thorough with yours.

Handoko -

[Handoko Suwono]

Hi again Mario,

I made a new space(1) to record this communication and serves as an
online demo for use of TS in a small workgroup with collaborative
interest. I hope you won't mind your words be put in the link out of
this list and added you as a member too. If anyone wishes to be added,
please be my guest.

Those are very descriptive information and elaborate enough for
beginners and novices that I am targetting at a FOSS conference(2). Some
attendees may have joined later in a conversation using this platform
and I hope you could as well be a host to answer.

I hope the formatting is OK which is my primary concern over TS theme. I
hope it's also UI friendly yet impose clarity.

> - The TS mechanism doesn't allow anonymous posts, in a default
> setting. So that's why users seem to refuse it.

I think to use TS for a small group is thus addressing only known
members and each member has its own space which including host space. If
a member wants to post something in this space, he/she needs to be added
as a member. In this case every member are known to each-other and need
not to be anonymous. Especially in a collaborative works eg. such as
building-up a TS plugin, or in a project, or in a class room.

Handoko -

(1) http://ts-wg.tiddlyspace.com/
(2) http://fossasia.org

[PMario]

On Monday, February 24, 2014 12:48:05 PM UTC+1, Handoko Suwono wrote:

Hi again Mario,
......

I think to use TS for a small group is thus addressing only known
members and each member has its own space which including host space. If
a member wants to post something in this space, he/she needs to be added
as a member. In this case every member are known to each-other and need
not to be anonymous. Especially in a collaborative works eg. such as
building-up a TS plugin, or in a project, or in a class room.

I think you are right. If you have a "small trusted group" it is possible to have a comment system.

So I did create one for you in the http://ts-wg.tiddlyspace.com/ space, since you made me a member.
I did include the http://ts-comments.tiddlyspace.com/ space, that contains some plugins and some docs, how to enable the comment system.
If  a user, that includes the "ts-comments" space, didn't mess with the ViewTemplate, there should be no adjustments needed. ...

I did add the CommentList tiddler to the MainMenu in the top.

All tiddlers get a comment input box. Except those with a tag: hideComment. So the user can disable commenting.

Only members of a space can edit, by default. (This setting could be changed, but is a bit tricky)

I'll also hide the Comment text area for non members if possible.

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

Hi Handoko,

If you like the stuff I did, you could probably promote the following links.
If those links are used to create a free cloud storage at "Ubuntu One" or "DropBox", The user gets a bonus of 500MB .. and me too :)

So it would be nice if you could promote those 2 links:

Ubuntu One: https://one.ubuntu.com/referrals/referee/690716/
DropBox: http://db.tt/qpWm38l

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, February 24, 2014 12:48:05 PM UTC+1, Handoko Suwono wrote:

Those are very descriptive information and elaborate enough for
beginners and novices that I am targetting at a FOSS conference(2). Some
attendees may have joined later in a conversation using this platform
and I hope you could as well be a host to answer.

How was the conference http://fossasia.org/ going?
Any video links to share?
-mario

[Handoko Suwono]

Hi Mario,

I was about to report something about FOSS Asia. I was just back home
last thursday from Phnom Penh then Ho Chi Minh city, then Singapore
and Indonesia. Five flights in total plus boat and bus rides:)

It was a tight scheduled two-day conference and one-day workshop while
I was honored to have a 55 minutes slot on the second day. The
conference was organized by Mario Behling, a German who lives in
Vietnam. This was the second FOSS Asia and attended by more than 70
speakers officially.

The session went well with only 12 persons attended. Began with intro
on tiddlyspace and the world of TW, explaining wiki terms and how it
is related to TS. Then explaining the TS for WG with workshop examples
for collaborative works to the end.

The problems is,
It must be the first time they ever heard about TS, some people could
not even spell correctly TW or TS. Eventhough some people came from
english speaking countries like India and SriLanka.

The first FOSS ASia 2010 in HCMC which I had attended, some fellow
speakers already recognize about TW and some of them were using
tiddlyspot. That is why I was then invited to present about TW.

In 2012, I attended Blogfest Asia in Siem Reap, Cambodia. This was a
sponsored event, so I came all covered but not this time in FOSS Asia
2014. I came by my own. During Blogfest Asia, I was also given a 1h
slot to talk about TW as demonstrated in
http://blogfestasia2012.tiddlyspace.com/

It was well packed sessions with seven tracks in FOSS Asia 2014 so I
think it's understandable that I could not get many attendants for the
ts-wg session. People would love more to attend Google, MariaDB, Open
street map, Fedora or other known sessions. However I hope some
serious people like two- or three people would join TS and try to
explore more about. I will send emails to them, who put their emails
in the attendant list, to thank them and ask if they have something
to say about TS.

Will try to find any video link, it must be there somewhere. Some
links were put in dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/l/YcG5ZjQruarXexJI2bZ2Ua/invite

I will continue later when I am updating my blog.

Thanks so much for reminding and a great help from the community.

Handoko -
astroiseur.tiddlyspace.com

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlySpace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlyspace/mLU2ymPSwUE/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlyspace...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

[tejjyid]

This is a bit late, but the best discussion of following I found, so it seemed like a reasonable place to ask two questions:

1.) Why the @ in front of the spacename? i was playing around and am following my own spaces just by creating a tiddler named with the spacename. Is this @ conflating the separate concept of following a user, which would follow all that user's spaces?

2.) When I click on the "reply to this tiddler" link, I get an error: "There was an error replying to this tiddler"

Separately, Handoko, it is extremely hard to get Tiddlyspace into organisations. Good luck!

Andrew

On Monday, 10 March 2014 22:31:03 UTC+11, Handoko Suwono wrote:

Hi Mario,

I was about to report something about FOSS Asia. I was just back home p

last thursday from Phnom Penh then Ho Chi Minh city, then Singapore
and Indonesia. Five flights in total plus boat and bus rides:)

bIt was a tight scheduled two-day conference and one-day workshop while

[Handoko Suwono]

Hi Andrew,

1) I am still working on setting proper explanation for the concept of
following a user. I think I put it in somewhere in *)
2) For error in replying, I think you need to be included as a member
of one's space to be able to reply. I am not sure if you do a member
of other space or miss some inclusion in your space.

Hope @pmario could help explain more about it.

>Separately, Handoko, it is extremely hard to get Tiddlyspace into
>organisations. Good luck!

My target is to use TS in small working groups for specific tasks. You
have some truth in it. TS is not broadly recognized. Unlike TW which
is available for personal/single user but not in collaborative mode,
TS is shareable on net.

*) ts-wg.tiddlyspace.com

Handoko -

[Tobias Beer]

1) I am still working on setting proper explanation for the concept of
following a user. I think I put it in somewhere in *)

Socialising On TiddlySpace @docs 

 

2) For error in replying, I think you need to be included as a member
of one's space to be able to reply. I am not sure if you do a member
of other space or miss some inclusion in your space.

You don't have to be a memember.

You probably do net the @tivity space.

Best wishes, Tobias.