Transferring multiple planned routes from a PC to a GPS and following it on your bike

[Jerome Daoust]

As discussed in another topic:
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/3c589ccaeaeaf958/
I have been busy adding new paths under Google Earth.

I can still remember the paths from memory, but there is an increasing
number, and then there are the new paths I have not been on myself
yet. So, have you done this yourself, and what GPS and software would
you recommend towards...
1) Saving all the paths under Google Earth to a GPS.
2) Use that GPS to verify that you are on course (of one of your many
paths), or be able to find you way back to the closest one after
wandering off. Having local road maps would be a definite plus.

What I already have if it can be used:
Google Earth (with all my favorite by bike paths, see project in
the other discussion)
GPS Dump (software to download/upload to a GPS)
Garmin Nuvi 660 (road navigation GPS)
Garmin Nuvi 680 (road navigation GPS)

Should I have ordered the Optilink ($759) from Optibike?
http://www.optibike.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=26&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=247
No sure if it includes road maps or not, and if we can upload multiple
bike paths to it. I will ask the guys at Optibike.

Planning routes (series of line segment to follow) is best done on a
PC (instead of a GPS) and Google Earth is free to use, so that
definitely is my starting point. Google Earth has detailed satellite
images, making it easy to actually see the paths, so planning is
almost fun. Maybe one day GPS units will show bike paths, but you will
still want to be able to customize your route. If you mostly use your
bike to commute (you already know your main routes) then this project
if of low interest to you. This project is intended for those who ride
their bikes in "explorer mode"

So many paths,
Jerome

[OptOut]

I'm not familiar with the nuvi but my old original Tomtom is totally
hackable (linux operating system).
I have previously posted software recommendations for garmin's bike
and run units. The best is zonefivesoftware.com sporttracks. That
software can import and export and has many plugins available for all
kinds of things including routes from gps logs (see apply routes
plugin).
You could even create your own plugins if you're so inclined.
I wouldn't get married and limit myself to google earth. Unless it
can work on an iphone and blackberry.
I've experimented with iPhone tracking software but it has serious
limitations because the phone must stay on (screen and all).

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Sep 2, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Jerome Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Geo Rider]

Jerome,
The optional iPAQ rx5915 Windows Mobile device, included at the $750
price with the optilink software includes pre installed GPS mapping
software. You can also buy and install tomtom software (or whatever
flavor of mapping software you prefer) on the windows device. I doubt
that the optilink software creates a gps log but I'm sure there is
software available for windows Mobile that will do it.
Note also that if you have a Windows Mobile based cell phone you could
save about 350 bucks and get the Optilink software for $400 and
install it on your phone. You'll probably want to get a handlebar
mount for it.
Best,
Joe


On Sep 2, 4:09 pm, Jerome Daoust <EyesToThe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As discussed in another topic:http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/3c589c...

> I have been busy adding new paths under Google Earth.
>
> I can still remember the paths from memory, but there is an increasing
> number, and then there are the new paths I have not been on myself
> yet. So, have you done this yourself, and what GPS and software would
> you recommend towards...
> 1) Saving all the paths under Google Earth to a GPS.
> 2) Use that GPS to verify that you are on course (of one of your many
> paths), or be able to find you way back to the closest one after
> wandering off. Having local road maps would be a definite plus.
>
> What I already have if it can be used:
>    Google Earth (with all my favorite by bike paths, see project in
> the other discussion)
>    GPS Dump (software to download/upload to a GPS)
>    Garmin Nuvi 660 (road navigation GPS)
>    Garmin Nuvi 680 (road navigation GPS)
>

> Should I have ordered the Optilink ($759) from Optibike?http://www.optibike.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=s...

[Jerome Daoust]

Thanks Joe,

I emailed Frank and Craig at Optibike to know how this can be done
through their products, and will post back my findings when they
respond.

I also contacted Garmin and I'm still corresponding with someone there
who said I cannot create routes for either the Garmin 660 or 680 that
I already own.

But I can buy a new GPS, I just want to find out which ones will
achieve my goal:
1) Create bike paths under Google Earth. I already did this:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.kml
It looks like this (screen capture):
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/GoogleEarth_Snapshot_KML.jpg
2) The above KML file can be converted to a GPX file (using GPSBabel):
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.gpx
This is a valid file, because I can open it in Google Earth and it
looks like this (screen capture):
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/GoogleEarth_Snapshot_GPX.jpg
3) I want to be able to copy the GPX file to a GPS device and be able
to follow the paths.
I would attach the GPS to my bicycle handlebar and visually verify
I am following my pre-established paths.

If some of you have GPS units, and are successful in displaying the
above GPX file, please let me know,
Jerome

[Jerome Daoust]

I called TomTom. They say none of their products can import a path/
route or GPX file.

I emailed Navigon, and will post back what I find out from them.

There is also hope from the "Garmin Communicator" (need to investigate
more):
http://developer.garmin.com/web-device/garmin-communicator-plugin/
For example, from Google Earth you can save the paths as a KML file
and then open it with Google Maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps
The paths accuracy is somewhat simplified, but is "close enough".
Related discussion:
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/12132

[Jerome Daoust]

Navigon responded:
None of our current models support importing routes in the manner
described

[Tor Atle Lunde]

Hi Jerome. Planning ahead with google maps sounds like a very good
idea, I must start doing that!

Anyway, I have the Garmin Edge 705 and I'm almost 100% sure you can
import routes into that one. Haven't tried it myself yet, but I'll
have a go this weekend.

Tor Atle

[Tor Atle Lunde]

Tried importing a route into the Garmin Edge 705 today, worked beautifully.

I used Marengo route planner (http://www.marengo-ltd.com/map/), and
then imported using Garmin's MapSource.

On the move, I chose the map view, which displays the route layered on
your map and notifies when a waypoint is approaching ("north-west on
1", "west on 2" etc). You can also navigate using a list of the next
upcoming 4 waypoints or a compass. On each of these views I believe
you can select what to display, for instance distance and time to next
waypoint (or other elements not specific to navigation such as
elevation, speed, heart rate).

Can't compare to other devices as this one is the first I've had, but
I have read that for pure navigation there are better ones. The 705
however is very good for training purposes.

Let me know if there are something specific you'd like me to test.

Tor Atle

[Jerome Daoust]

Thanks for reporting that Tor.

Something specific: Yes, please copy this file:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.gpx
to this directory on your GPS unit under:
/garmin/gpx
and then say if your GPS will display the paths.

Thank you!

[Tor Atle Lunde]

That file didn't work too well. http://frank.kinlan.co.uk/?page_id=920
says there is a 100 waypoint limit, and some of your routes have way
more than that. Also your file ends kinda abruptly, no </trk> closing
tag for instance.

Another difference is that you have "trk" and "trkpt", while I have
"rte" and "rtept". Do you know the difference between a track and a
route?

Tor Atle

2008/9/7 Jerome Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>:

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/7 Tor Atle Lunde <torat...@gmail.com>:

> That file didn't work too well. http://frank.kinlan.co.uk/?page_id=920
> says there is a 100 waypoint limit, and some of your routes have way
> more than that.

Found a workaround: http://www.gpsies.com/upload.do.

That page converts from gpx (or directly from google earth) into
Garmin Training center-format, importing worked well and no 100
waypoint limit. I will have to testdrive to see what differences there
are.

Tor Atle

[Jérôme Daoust]

Thank you for helping Tor, much appreciated.

 

I went to

   http://www.gpsies.com/upload.do

and uploaded the KML file:

   http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.kml

 

On the displayed map (attached image) it seems to have connected all my path with extra segments.

I tried editing it using their interface and it seems you can delete or add points, but not "break" a path.

So it seems like it expects to receive a single path (series of trackpoints connected to form a single track).

Bummer, almost there.

 

Jerome

[Jérôme Daoust]

Another possible way to do this: Google Maps + Garmin Communicator

 

Tor,

If you are willing to install the Garmin Communicator plugin:

   http://developer.garmin.com/web-device/garmin-communicator-plugin/
You could see if you can transfer the paths from Google Maps to your Edge 705.

 

Steps:

1) Start Google Maps:

    http://maps.google.com/maps

2) Click "My Maps"

3) Click "Create new map"

4) Click "Import"

    Provide the URL:

       http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.kml

    Click "Import from URL"

5) Wait while Google Maps digests the KML file.

6) Observe the paths (see attached snapshot), but you only see the paths corresponsing to the Google "page" contents.

 

This is what I can't try on my side...

7) Using the Garmin Communicator plugin, send the paths to your GPS.

8) On your GPS do you get all the paths, or only the ones for a given Google Maps "page"?

 

Maybe the other Communicator-Enabled Websites will provide a better interface:

http://developer.garmin.com/web-device/garmin-communicator-plugin/communicator-enabled-websites-2/

 

Jerome

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/9 Jerome Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>:
>
> Thank you Tor!
>
> Yes, please testdrive, but please also take a picture of what the
> display looks like on your GPS with the paths.

Did a quick midnight ride, pictures here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/toratlelAV/Garmin705#.

* First one navigating to the start of the course
* The second one just after the start (the triangle just in front of
me is my virtual training partner, pretty cool!)
* Third one showing both a "ride" with waypoints and a "course".

It will alert you if you leave the course, but you won't get the
frequent beeps when you approach a waypoint which is fine since you
would have to mark a waypoint every time a road changed direction.
Actually, looking at my third picture, it might be able to do both
navigation with waypoints and drawing a more detailed course at the
same time.

Tor Atle

Tor Atle

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/10 Jérôme Daoust <eyesto...@gmail.com>:

Take a look at your .kml file with notepad (or a better one like
notepad++), it's pretty easy to edit your file so you just have a
single path in each.

Tor Atle

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/10 Jérôme Daoust <eyesto...@gmail.com>:

> Another possible way to do this: Google Maps + Garmin Communicator
>
> Tor,
> If you are willing to install the Garmin Communicator plugin:
> http://developer.garmin.com/web-device/garmin-communicator-plugin/
> You could see if you can transfer the paths from Google Maps to your Edge
> 705.

Managed to transfer a track from http://www.gpsies.com to my 705, but
was unable to find out how to do it from google maps. Will try again
tomorrow.

Thanks for the tip!

Tor Atle

[Jerome Daoust]

Hi Tor,

I took a look at the KML file with Wordpad, and there lots of stuff in
there.

I don't want to make a single path of all my multiple disconnected
path, I want to keep them as separate multiple paths.
The problem is that GPSies connected them (probably from ends to
starts of disconnected paths), which is not what I want.

Thanks for working with me, much appreciated Tor,
Jerome

On Sep 9, 4:09 pm, "Tor Atle Lunde" <toratle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/10 Jérôme Daoust <eyestothe...@gmail.com>:

[Tor Atle Lunde]

Separate multiple paths, hmm, you lost me there :)

If you transfer your paths one by one to the Garmin, what would you
like to do that you can't? A path is a stretch of road, from A to B,
could be a round trip but doesn't have to be - yes? Is your concern
that you would sometimes have to change to a different "course" in the
middle of a trip?

I'm new at this so happy to discuss and learn.

Tor Atle

[Jerome Daoust]

Hi Tor,

Under Google Earth I created all the bike paths I know of, they are
not connected to each other, but they may intersect.
It is just a series of individual paths (sometimes broken down further
in parts).
Each one of those paths (a Google Earth term which can be understood
as a track) is a series of coordinates that are connected by line
segments.
So there should not be an attempts to connect the end of one path to
the start of another, and this is what I saw in GPSies.

So I don't expect the GPS unit to guide me along one of the paths, but
simply to visually confirm my position is near one of the multiple
path that was imported into it (from the GPX file that contains
multiple paths, or tracks)

2 other approaches, the first one seems particularly adapted to the
Edge 705:
1) http://www.motionbased.com/info/gps/view.mb?tile=info.gps.edge#edge705
2) http://www.takitwithme.com/gpx.html

Jerome

PS. Different use of a GPS: See my paragliding flight of Saturday:
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/modules.php?name=leonardo&op=show_flight&flightID=132677
You can click on "Google Earth" from that page to see the flight in
3D.

[Jerome Daoust]

Parallel discussions on other forums:

http://groups.google.com/group/earth-gps/browse_thread/thread/cdfbdecbe8c87fb7#

http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=117253

[Jerome Daoust]

Tor wrote:
> Let me know if there are something specific you'd like me to test.

Yes, a test with MapSource (You said you had it):
1) Import my GPX file:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.gpx
I know this should work because a co-worker is into motocross and has
it at work and we sucessfully imported it. I could see all the paths
in there as a series of points.
2) Export those points (or ideally the segments between the points) to
your Edge 705.
3) Take a picture of how your Edge 705 displays the paths, and confirm
that the paths (series of points constituting separate paths/tracks)
are not assembled in a single path/route/track by creating additional
segments from the end of one path/track to the start of another which
are not meant to be connected.

Thank you so much Tor!

References:
MapSource: http://www8.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/tripandwaypoint.jsp

[Jérôme Daoust]

There is a video tutorial for the TakItWithMe approach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4VrVqfUNNA&fmt=18
We see at the end of that video that we can create a route between
waypoints and transfer that to a GPS.

So I followed this procedure:

1) Start Google Maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps
2) Click "My Maps"
3) Click "Create new map"
4) Click "Import"
Provide the URL:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA.kml
Click "Import from URL"

Wait for the import process to end (takes 15 seconds or so).
5) Click "Link" and capture the URL of my maps (I made it a public map):
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&t=h&z=11&msid=117590478256725205661.000456855cf393888764e
6) Go to takitwithme: http://www.takitwithme.com
7) Use the My Map URL (see step 5 above).
8) Click "Conversion Options" and verify we enabled "To Route" as
"Line Options" as in this snapshot:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/TakItWithMe_Snapshot.jpg
Also the above snapshot shows the imported multiple and separate paths
(or routes/tracks) which is what we want (no extra connection from
the end of one to the start of another)
9) Click "Download GPX" and we get the file I saved here:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/USA_CA_TakItWithMe_MyMaps.gpx
That seems like a valid file, because when I open it with Google Earth
I see this snapshot of what I would expect:
http://www.expandingknowledge.com/tmp/GoogleEarthPaths_to_GPS/GoogleEarth_Snapshot_Imported_GPX_from_TakItWithMe.jpg

Here is where I need your help: To copy the created GPX file (step 9
above) to your Garmin GPS unit under directory /garmin/gpx
Please report (a picture would be great) what you can see on your GPS,
in particular if all path (tracks/routes) are not connected between
them from the end of one to the start of another (undesirable). The
only goal is to verify that the GPS will display our position and the
multiple line segments representing our routes, so we can visually
verify if we are close to one of them.

[Tor Atle Lunde]

Jerome,

I will do some testing this evening, I am 9 hours lagging you so am at
work now (clearly remember this as I was in San Fransisco this
spring).

In the mean time - when you transfer tracks to the 705, either one by
one or a collection in one file, the end result is the same I think.
You get a list of tracks to choose from, and you can only
follow/display one at a time. It sounds like you want them all to be
displayed at once. I don't know for sure so will check up on this.

Tor Atle

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/10 Tor Atle Lunde <torat...@gmail.com>:

> Jerome,
>
> I will do some testing this evening, I am 9 hours lagging you so am at
> work now (clearly remember this as I was in San Fransisco this
> spring).

Erm, I meant in front of you. Nevermind :)

Tor Atle

[Geo Rider]

A tutorial for Hacking your TomTom:

http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/insidetomtomgo910.php

I was surprised to see you can even use it to watch videos now.

[Jerome Daoust]

As recommended by Robert:
http://groups.google.com/group/earth-gps/msg/b4f5759f1cf09eaf

I also asked on the MotionBased forum:
http://forums.motionbased.com/smf/index.php?topic=10000.0

But I will keep using this forum to gather the related information
from various sources.

[OptOut]

FYI motionbased.com will soon be absorbed in total by
connect.garmin.com and be free (for garmin owners).
Motionbased charges if you want access to more than your last 10
tracks. All existing MB members will be moved to connect and get full
access. It's a perfect place to share and compare routes.
Owners of edge 705 can already use it.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Sep 10, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Jerome Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Jerome Daoust]

That's good news Joe, thanks.

If one is willing to pay ($50 in this case) there is ExpertGPS that
seems to do what I'm looking for:
http://www.expertgps.com/kml-download-to-garmin.asp
There is a 30 day free trial that can be downloaded.

This is a list of supported garmin units:
http://www.expertgps.com/gps-receivers/garmin-topo-map-software.asp

I sent them an email about this discussion.

Jerome

[Jerome Daoust]

Got this reply from Krabat:
http://forums.motionbased.com/smf/index.php?topic=10000.msg60800#msg60800

You can do what you want with the Edge 605/705, but you will have to
convert the GPX files to so-called Courses in CRS (or TCX) format with
the help of
GPX2CRS:
http://forums.motionbased.com/smf/index.php?topic=2088.msg11852#msg11852

GPX files are readable as well, but in a different mode in which re-
routing can happen which is not what you want here.

[Tor Atle Lunde]

Not sure how to help any further on this Jerome, I think courses must
by definition have a start and a goal - how else are you going to do a
timed run? I know this is not your primary concern but still. Anyway,
there is no way I can see to display more than one course at a time.
You get a list of courses and you select one. Same thing with the
waypoint stuff. When I transferred your file, the various segments
like "lighthouse" and so on came up as separate entries in the list.
Again you had to choose one.

Tor Atle

[Jerome Daoust]

Thanks Tor, I apprreciate your testing.

At this point, I will wait for technology to catch up to my
expectations.

Jerome

[Jerome Daoust]

Message received from Dan Foster <support2006 AT expertgps DOT com>
from Expert GPS

Yes, ExpertGPS can send KML files to your Garmin GPS. The problem is
that there's a limit to how much data your GPS can hold (see the
specifics for your GPS at http://www.expertgps.com/gps-receivers/ )
and you're asking to load a KML file that will exceed those
limitations. Download the 30 day trial and see for yourself how it
works. http://www.expertgps.com/download.asp

If you have an Edge, you can import the TCX files by clicking Import
on the File menu.