The BEST Electric Bike in the WORLD

[Bike_on]

I decided to post this in a "neutral" forum, not on Opti, not on E+.
It is interesting to look at the claims of both. I suppose this is
all marketing hype, but I wonder if it does the companies do a
disservice and creates a sense of distrust amounst would be buyers?
You have a $9-13K bike and a $4k bike claiming to be the best.
Why?.

It seems more realistic to add nuance to the claims. "The best hub
bike, the best gear drive bike, the best total performance bike. etc"
There is some nuance if you look closer:

------------------------------------
Why the E+ Electric Bike?
After two years of development, and attention to every detail, the E+
Electric Bike is simply the best electric bike in the world. In
performance,elegance, reliability, and safety the E+ is incomparable.
The propulsion and control systems designed by Electric Motion Systems
are completely new, and have no peer in power and reliability. Every
aspect of the E+ electric powered bicycle is engineered for quality.
----------------------------------
The Optibike is simply the best electric bike made.
Unmatched in hill climbing, speed, range, and quality.
-----------------------------------

If one disects these claims, and compares E+ to Opti:
E+ claims
1. The most power (1000W is high for an OEM),
2. Better reliability (no drive chain issues? How is this measured?)
3. Performance (In what? Speed? Range? everything?)
4. Elegance (subjective)
5. Safety (using NiMH vs lithium? Handling? How?)

Opti claims:
1. Unmatched hill climbing (it does have loads of torque via the
gears.)
2. Speed (32-34mph on flats is fast for an OEM with pedalling. I
think the E+ does the same)
3. Range (Hard to argue with 32 miles, 24mph average, or 50 mile
20mph average. However, the new Giant twist is suppose to putter 50
miles, albiet 12-15mph average. Again, nuance the claim)
4. Quality (How does one measure this? Is it the quality of the
paint job? Quality of the OEM components selected? Custom parts?
Assembly? I think Opti can make some claims on parts. E+ would
likely claim equal assembly detail.)

Thoughts, comments?

[lowco2]

I think "best" is such a subjective word, many people can claim it.
Ultimately, the "best" bike has to be the one each individual rider
finds that fits his or her riding. Only things that are truly
objective (battery capacity, motor power) can be directly compared.
All the rest is subjective. For example, I'm a huge fan of Fox
suspension components, but plenty of people ride and like other brands
-- who's to say what's right.
--J

[Bike_On]

John-

If the BEST is subjective as you say, should a company make such a
calim?

[deerfencer]

>
> If the BEST is subjective as you say, should a company make such a
> calim?
>

Probably not--IMO "best" is way too vague and (as John says)
subjective a word to be very useful, and I think most consumers see it
as such. Marketers should therefore avoid using it in favor of much
more specific descriptions since at least to me these types of
overblown claims only breed skepticism in a discerning prospective
buyer.

LH

[OptOut]

The bottom line is a company should say whatever sells their product
as long as it's true. In this case there are so few manufacturers and
I'm sure they're all strugling to survive that I believe they are
justified in calling their bikes the best. Optibike and e+ are both
the best in different ways. Neither is perfect for everyone. For
exampke, my local former TF dealer thought the welds on the Optibike
looked crude. In his opinion the E+ was the best and he became a
dealer. Others will think the E+ is heavy and will chose the Optibike
as best (insert your own justification for either bike).
There are at least 2 brewerys that claim to be the oldest in the USA.
3 places that claim to be the birthplace of the ice cream Sundae.
They all sell more because of it.
I for one am thrilled there's a choice. The TF standing by itself died
of lonliness being best all by itself.

Best (wishes to you all),
Joe (mobile)

[Nimbuzz]

Well I think we are all pretty used to marketing hype. In this case at
least it is the two best. I think the E+ must step down for now for
lack of batteries. You can't be the best with 8ah. Where the heck can
you go with that especially on a bike you can't pedal worth beans with
no juice! And especially with the two Opti packs (20 ah built in and
25ah aux available) both with a 3 yr warranty -- that just wraps it.
However E+ might offer Lithium and join the big leagues any day --
hope so. If they want to compete in 'The Best' catagory they better
have a 12ah lithium hub and a 20 - 30 ah aux pack-- actually how
about two 13ah packs. If they do this and have good warranties the
price difference will be much less. I don't mind the level of
components on the E+ as they are serviceable and can be upgraded at
will. It's nice to be able to afford the bike and upgrade it later. If
it had the fore-mentioned packs and the quality level of components
that the Opti 800 Li has the two bikes would be in spitting distance
price-wise of each other.

Once $ is equal it is a matter of preference for the silent hub motor
or the efficiency of the MBB. They are both VERY well made bikes. The
Opti and TFX seem to climb at about the same speed and go the same on
the level. I believe the TFX is more powerful at 1000 watts but the
geared Opti can climb as fast and I think use less power because of
the increased efficiency from gearing and weight difference. In a few
months when I have both bikes running and clear weather I can get real
data.

Then there is the wonderful debate of regen. I'm a fan of regen IF it
doesn't damage the batteries -- So the jury is out on that one. I
think the E+ needs a computer that will allow the level of regen that
the packs can handle.

I'm rootin for the E+ to go Lithium and add some cool colors -- as
good as the red TFS will do. But today I can put 45 ah on my Opti and
ride off into the sunset -- hard to beat!

Unc's $.02

On Feb 24, 12:56 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The bottom line is a company should say whatever sells their product  
> as long as it's true.  In this case there are so few manufacturers and  
> I'm sure they're all strugling to survive that I believe they are  
> justified in calling their bikes the best.  Optibike and e+ are both  
> the best in different ways. Neither is perfect for everyone. For  
> exampke, my local former TF dealer thought the welds on the Optibike  
> looked crude.  In his opinion the E+ was the best and he became a  
> dealer.  Others will think the E+ is heavy and will chose the Optibike  
> as best (insert your own justification for either bike).
> There are at least 2 brewerys that claim to be the oldest in the USA.  
> 3 places that claim to be the birthplace of the ice cream Sundae.  
> They all sell more because of it.
> I for one am thrilled there's a choice. The TF standing by itself died  
> of lonliness being best all by itself.
>
> Best (wishes to you all),
> Joe (mobile)
>

[Nimbuzz]

... Two more features. I bought my Opti from an engineer who has a
bunch of ebikes and has had several dozen over the past 15 years. He
had the E+ and Opti 800 Li at the same time (I rode the E+ once and
have a TFX) He chose the E+ because he can't pedal that much and can
just sit on the E+ and go pretty fast. The Opti is made to be pedaled
-- even if you aren't pedaling hard you pedal it as you move up
through the gears. It's very natural the way it works and I'm a
pedaler -- he isn't. You can just motor the Opti and shift up through
the gears but it is not optimal (no pun intended)

AND there is no comparison off road -- the Opti is HOT off road. The E
+ can go off road but is not hot because of the weight of the whole
bike and particularly the hubs. So for jumping, sliding, downhill and
off road schenanagins the Opti wins again. Watch some of the off road
videos. Jamie is an off road champ and he pounds that 800 Li and has
been for nearly a year. Then again the TFX was/is? used by the army in
Afganistan trukin' soldiers around on dirt roads. Last report I heard
it could do that well -- any more reports on that?

Unc's $.03

[Tracy Talley]

Just as a side note on this subject:

Rakesh is no longer with E+.
Reason for this is unknown at this time.
Maybe someone could shed some light on that?

Tracy

[deerfencer]

Some great points, Uncle Al. I totally agree that 8 Ahs is a bit of a
joke range-wise, and think it's a pity E+ didn't address this from the
start. I've been riding Uma so long with aux packs that I sometimes
forget how limited the turnkey TFs are/were without a B pack. Also, I
think you're spot-on re the pricing differential between the Opti
400/600 and the E+ more or less disappearing once you add equivalent
range to the E+.

Separately, re the military, I always assumed the Army turned a big
thumbs down on the TFXs after field testing them overseas. Can't
imagine these bikes being much help towing a lot of weight in all that
dust and heat unless they ran some mighty aux packs. Would YOU want to
risk your hiney atop one of these in desert conditions with the bad
guys taking potshots at you? I think not. Maybe DC knows some details
here, but as far as I know we've never had any solid reports of the
TFX's military trials/usage other than the silliness about them being
dropped out of helicopters--where they no doubt caught maximum air
(har har).

Sorry, I need some more coffee.

LH

[deerfencer]

Tracy,

This is potentially disturbing news since Rakesh appeared to be a
large part of the braintrust at E+. Do you have any details? Who's
your source?

Regards,

Larry

[Tracy Talley]

Larry,

Got this email from him the yesterday:

Dear Tracy:

I trust all is well. I am no longer with EMS.

My new email address is rakesh...@gmail.com

You can also look me up at linkedin:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/rakeshkdhawan

Best,
Rakesh

I don't think I am betraying his confidence because he probably wants as
many as possible to know since he is also sending a resume'.
Just a little surprised he didn't make an announcement on this forum though.

His response to my question of "what's going on?" follows:

Hi Tracy:

It is time to do something more revolutionary.

Do stay in touch.

Best,
Rakesh

Maybe he can chime in and shed some light or maybe not.

Tracy

Tracy,

Regards,

Larry

> E+ can

[Richard Papa]

Sad but true, more news from our Rakesh soon,

Rich

[OptOut]

Unc,
Shhh. National security requires denial of the use of TFs by the
army ;-)

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[OptOut]

Larry,
Glad you commented on the army thing. I think Al knew that already. I
posted a joke about it before seeing yours.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[OptOut]

Rakish,
If you're reading this, sorry if you've lost your job. There's an
awful lot of that going around. But let's hope it leads to better
things.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Feb 25, 2009, at 7:57 AM, "Tracy Talley" <talle...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Richard Papa]

Rakesh is fine Joe, he has already started something new. News will come
soon.

Cheers,

Rich

[Tracy Talley]

He was also President of EMS, so I doubt he lost his job.
More like they lost him.

[OptiMate]

Makes me think of Martin Eberhard and Tesla Motors
http://teslafounders.wordpress.com/about/

Best,
Joe

[deerfencer]

I keep wondering how E+ can support the considerable payroll they must
be carrying given the margins here and their need for talented
engineers. Angel investor perhaps? Very few--if any--long-term
survivors in this business. Opti may actually be one of the longest-
lived at this point. Sadly, lots of carcasses on the highway,
including Allen Anderson and Lee Iococca, two pretty savvy
businessmen.

LH

On Feb 25, 3:14 pm, OptiMate <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Makes me think of Martin Eberhard and Tesla Motorshttp://teslafounders.wordpress.com/about/
>
> Best,
> Joe

> > On Feb 25, 2009, at 7:57 AM, "Tracy Talley" <talleyra...@comcast.net>

[Tracy Talley]

Good comparison Joe.

[bill_von]

On Feb 24, 8:09 am, Bike_on <therowe...@verizon.net> wrote:

> If one disects these claims, and compares E+ to Opti:
> E+ claims
> 1.  The most power (1000W is high for an OEM),
> 2.  Better reliability (no drive chain issues?  How is this measured?)
> 3.  Performance (In what? Speed? Range? everything?)
> 4.  Elegance (subjective)
> 5.  Safety (using NiMH vs lithium?  Handling? How?)

I'd also add:

6. Ability to regen brake
7. Noise level (zero)
8. More fault tolerant (gets you home with broken pedal drivetrain)

[Bike_On]

> I'd also add:
>
> 6. Ability to regen brake
> 7. Noise level (zero)
> 8. More fault tolerant (gets you home with broken pedal drivetrain)

#6 would be a subset of #3 - efficiency adding to range.
Optibike, on the other hand, has a free wheel, and pedals much
easier, and still has better efficiency overall.

#7 is an advantage, but is E+ more silent than another non-geared hub?
Both Opti and E+ are more silent than a motorcycle.

#8 is part of #2, reliability of drive chain.

2006 was the test and verification of the Opti design with the 400W.
2007 was the test and verification of the 600W.
2008 was the test and verification of the 800/850W and lithium
upgrade.
2009 I think will be the test and verification of a reliable drive
system(s) ie Rohloff, chain guides, etc.

IMO,

Dan

[OptOut]

Dan you miss the point of Bill's items.

6 regen braking has other benefits. Like zero maintenance. Added
safety thru redundent braking etc
7 silence is GOLDen. On a trail in the woods you can sneak up on
animals. Safety- you can hear cars, people, etc. You can't beat
silence and it's got real value to many people including me.
8 has come in handy for me a few times. Again redundent power systems
add more reliability. You cAn't compare it to adding reliability to a
single method of power.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[deerfencer]

I personally suspect regen was a completely unforeseen disaster
battery-wise that the Wavecrest engineers unwittingly unleashed on an
otherwise brilliant motor/controller design, probably thinking it was
a cool feature that would be necessary in helping to sell a larger
version motor to Detroit for HEV applications. The deadly error: not
including some sort of switch or BMS control to limit the power flow
back into the pack at much lower levels than I've seen on my
DrainBrain (34A!) descending steep hills. That's a major spike for any
battery to handle, and if the pack is just off a long climb and toasty
warm it may be especially vulnerable to damage at that point.
Absolutely not worth the 5-10% added range it offers, though I will
admit the braking feature can be nice--but not at the expense of
battery life!

LH

On Feb 25, 5:49 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dan you miss the point of Bill's items.
>
> 6 regen braking has other benefits. Like zero maintenance. Added
> safety thru redundent braking etc
> 7 silence is GOLDen. On a trail in the woods you can sneak up on
> animals. Safety- you can hear cars, people, etc. You can't beat
> silence and it's got real value to many people including me.
> 8 has come in handy for me a few times. Again redundent power systems
> add more reliability. You cAn't compare it to adding reliability to a
> single method of power.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

[Bike_On]

Joe,

#6 In general, a really good regen that does not kill your battery
has a certain advantage over non-regen. I do not think regen braking
is any safer than the Avid disks on an Opti. Secondly, you kind of
missed my point on #6. A free wheel has pedaling advantages over a
regen hub. You can actually ride it like a bike.

#7 I would agree that more silence IS better. E+ however, did not
list silence as a reason to be the best. In general, all electric
bikes are "silent" compared to an ICE. Yes, TF and E+ is much more
silent than an Opti, and that is a ++ for many. Some noise is not bad
whenon a bike path, but that is what bells are for.

#8 Dual drive, a good point, but again, not as practical with a heavy
regen hub bike. The question is What is BEST when they are working,
not broken...

Dan

[OptOut]

Dan,

Sorry, I was thinking more theoretical best case than specifics for
the best real bike available off the shelf today.

Ie In theory avid brakes plus regen is safer than either alone.
Independent motor power plus human power is more reliable than either
alone.
The opti could have these things but the designers chose not to. A
clutch on the rear freewheel to engage regen braking on demand for
example.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[bill_von]

> #6 would be a subset of #3 - efficiency adding to range.

Actually, I like the fact that I can get a lot of braking power from
the motor. Seems safer and easier on the brake pads, plus the small
addition of range.

> #7 is an advantage, but is E+ more silent than another non-geared hub?

I've only tried Crystalyte, E+ and TF and they're all pretty quiet.
(Crystalyte actually has some controller noise tho.)

> 2009 I think will be the test and verification of a reliable drive
> system(s) ie Rohloff, chain guides, etc.

Rohloff hubs are great, but I have a feeling that the dozens of tiny
parts in that hub will not contribute to a significant increase in
long term reliability.

[remf]

>#6 would be a subset of #3 - efficiency adding to range.

> Actually, I like the fact that I can get a lot of braking power from
> the motor. Seems safer and easier on the brake pads, plus the small
> addition of range.

Yes but at the expense of freewheeling (I know you can feather the
throttle on the TF but it's not the same as zero-resistance downhill
flight on the Opti, not sure about freewheeling on the E+?) but also
note Larry's observations about regen destroying expensive batteries
prematurely. Limiting the current going back in might work well. The
only other obvious solution is LiFePo4, adding even more weight
hopefully not in the front hub but rather in a sturdy rack. All this
to achieve triple redundant brakes instead of the normal double
redundant front & rear disks alone. The tiny additional range is
definitely small change when compared to Opti's potential range in the
same configuration i.e. with a rack mounted LiPo.

[remf]

Actually I take back what I said about TF's & LiFePo4's after reading
Larry's post about his battery graveyard including FOXX LiFePo4's. Not
even the DeWalt A123's survived!!! I'm truly sorry to read this,
Larry! Where to now? Maybe Altairnano?

[OptOut]

I think Larry uses the dewalts in his tools but maybe not.
Is the opti's mbb internally geared like the BMC and Heinzman hub
motors?
The heinzman makes noise that I suspect is similar to the opti's mbb
noise.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[remf]

I believe it's an internal planetary gear combiner and is certainly
responsible for the noise. The gold 850w motor is quieter than the old
600w by an order of magnitude.

On Feb 26, 10:19 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think Larry uses the dewalts in his tools but maybe not.
> Is the opti's mbb internally geared like the BMC and Heinzman hub  
> motors?
> The heinzman makes noise that I suspect is similar to the opti's mbb  
> noise.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

[Bike_On]

The MBB does step down rpms. I believe it is about 30:1. If you look
on the Opti forum, Craig posted a file with dyno results and the motor
was spinning at 2400 rpms. A typical cadence in the zone is 80-90, so
yes, 30:1.

IMO, one of the key performance factors to having one of the BEST
bikes inthe World, is producing good torque. The mfrs who do that
are:
1. Opti - MBB
2. E+, TF - controller techniques, I forget the name.
3. BMC geared hub
4. Heinzmann geared hub
5. Ezee geared hub.

A geared hub with a 48V system gives good torque and speed. I think
Doug has this set up?

Problem: Noise. Only the E+, TF give the silence.

Dan

[deerfencer]

On Feb 26, 5:36 am, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually I take back what I said about TF's & LiFePo4's after reading
> Larry's post about his battery graveyard including FOXX LiFePo4's. Not
> even the DeWalt A123's survived!!! I'm truly sorry to read this,
> Larry! Where to now? Maybe Altairnano?
>

No nanos for me; I heard some nasty rumors from a pretty reliable
source about multiple Altair battery pack failures recently in PHEV
applications.

I'm actually thinking along the lines of Bubbinski (bmf) here, having
looked at the impressive discharge/recharge specs on some of the newer
lipoly hobby packs (some over 100A continuous!) and hunting for a deal
on the same. Yes, they'll probably only last a season or so but
they're superlight and sexy, and might be worth a spin of the wheel. I
don't see much in the way of deep discounts, though, and will have to
research these further. Anybody know anything about these? Good source
for same? Best brands?

I was willing to accept the weight of the LifePo4's as the penalty to
pay for longevity, but I'm seeing very little evidence that these are
the robust, reliable (trying to ban the word bulletproof from my vocab
from now on) power packs they were trumped up to be. Thunder-sky has
some very beefy LiFepo batteries aimed at the the high performance e-
bike and scooter market for cheap--37V20Ah for under $600 with
charger--but the single battery weighs a bloody ton (well over 40
pounds) and I'm getting sick of strapping bricks to sweet Uma. At
least they're hitting the low price point we were led to believe we'd
see compared to their brethren lipolys.

LH

P.S. Joe's right about the A123's being used strictly as (Dewalt)
cordless drill packs. Had good success with them two years ago on a
boardwalk framing project where we had to drill endless 3/4" diameter
deep holes through white oak, about as dense a wood as you'll see, so
I can't dis these batts in general, and think this is just a defective
pack--I have several others that continue to perform well.

[mfrance4]

Just to clarify, the E+ has 10Ah. I believe that their earlier
literature mentioned 8 or 9Ah.

[Nimbuzz]

<< thinking along the lines of Bubbinski (bmf) >> Is this a type of
battery?!? Are we supposed to know what this means? Oh Ya -- Big
Megawatt Future -- I get it = good things are coming sometime.

[deerfencer]

On Feb 27, 2:31 am, Nimbuzz <mary...@aol.com> wrote:
> << thinking along the lines of Bubbinski (bmf) >> Is this a type of
> battery?!? Are we supposed to know what this means? Oh Ya -- Big
> Megawatt Future -- I get it = good things are coming sometime.

Bubbinski=Bubba=bmf=bMF=long-time poster here and TF owner in Canada
looking for a new battery pack
for his 500W ride.

LH

[OptOut]

Unc aka al,
It's bMF another of our wonderful members aka bubba now nicknamed
bubbinsky etc.

Best,
Simply Joe (mobile)
Once known as Juicy Joe

[OptOut]

He prefers remaing as private and anonymous as possible. Much like
me. I have great respect for the right to privacy.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[Nimbuzz]

Guys we are talking about batteries. The sentence talks about
'bubinsky having 100 A discharge specs.' My question is asking what
this is refering to?? If a specific pack is being referred to then
what pack is it please, specs -- link?

Thanks,
Unc

On Feb 27, 6:33 am, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He prefers remaing as private and anonymous as possible.  Much like  
> me.  I have great respect for the right to privacy.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

[deerfencer]

On Feb 27, 9:33 am, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He prefers remaining as private and anonymous as possible. Much like

> me. I have great respect for the right to privacy.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

Yeah, right. I know for a fact Joe's plastered his Facebook walls with
racy self-portraits from his college days, when he rode his Italian
ten-speed solely in black and purple speedos. In fact Facebook has
rated his home page (5) red hot chile peppers and asked him to cool
the content for a while to let their flustered server settle.

LH

[deerfencer]

On Feb 27, 9:55 am, Nimbuzz <mary...@aol.com> wrote:
> Guys we are talking about batteries. The sentence talks about
> 'bubinsky having 100 A discharge specs.' My question is asking what
> this is refering to?? If a specific pack is being referred to then
> what pack is it please, specs -- link?
>

Batteries, Bubbinskies, what's the diff?

Seriously, Unc, go to virtually any decent electric race car/heli
hobby site and check out some of the specs on their latest, greatest
lipo packs--some of which come 18V and up to about 5000mAh, so you'd
probably need to wire together about four of them to get a 10Ah pack
for our rides. The most expensive are rated up to 30C, which
translates to 150A discharge max, no? That's fearsome if true, and
even cutting these claims in half (for the dirty lowdown cheating
Chinese factor), seems plenty for even our X bikes.

The problem is they remain pretty pricey, though bMF had found a sale
item (since expired I believe) that he was tempted by. Worth
researching a bit methinks. Aren't you into one of these hobbies
yourself, Unc? You probably know a lot more about these packs than I.
Fess up.

UL

[OptOut]

Ahh but if only you knew the real me ;-)
I'm really a beautiful young woman using "Joe" to learn about you old
horn dogs as your buddy so you won't be preoccupied by all the sexual
tension.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[deerfencer]

Big Al,

Let me revise a few of those numbers on these RC hobby packs as they
weren't quite accurate. MAXamps.com has the following lipoly pack
listed for $500: 10000mAh 18V 100A continuous discharge
@ 2.2 lbs (!!!). So for a cool grand you could build a 36V 10Ah 4.4 lb
pack (plus pack casing of course) that should certainly be able to
handle the 29-33A continuous pull of our X rides if the ratings here
mean anything. The weight alone makes these very tempting to try, but
my finances won't allow it right now.

Has anyone else out there played with these RC packs on an e-bike?


http://www.maxamps.com/Lipo-10000-185-Pack.htm


LH

[deerfencer]

I'm moving the discussion of these RC lipoly packs to a new thread as
we've obviously wandered mightily here from the original topic. Please
post accordingly.

LH

[Nimbuzz]

Another feature I neglected to mention is the Opit's 'Boost' as
explained in this blog http://blog2.optibike.com/ This shows what a
truely sophisticated machine the Opti is.

A feature os equal sophistication that could be added to the E+ in the
future is a 'Freewheel Coast Mode' that would automaticly apply a
little bit of power to equal non-resistant coasting -- something that
is missing on an E+ and a Prius which are always giving some regen
while coasting. The Opti's freewheel coast is a noticable relief from
the TF as it keeps up your speed (otherwise I'm a fan of regen for
braking) Larry, myself and others here have learned to give a tiny
throttle or feather to achieve this 'non-resistant coast' but it would
be nice to not have to think about it.

I don't know if we've mentioned that the Opti comes with nice dual
halogen lights. I added good LED lights to my TF but again it is
convenient to have them integrated to use the bike's pack on the Opti
and not have another set of auxillary wires and another pack to
charge.

Unc

[Nimbuzz]

Another item on the E+ side is it comes with a sidestand.

On Feb 25, 7:30 pm, Bike_On <therowe...@verizon.net> wrote:

[Bike_On]

Optibike's Response:

http://blog2.optibike.com/

I think they believe their claim is more than marketing.

[Bike_On]

bill_von said on another post:

A related example is the front wheel. When I had the original
Tidalforce front wheel, it was almost like I didn't have a front
suspension. It rarely compressed, and the front wheel tended to hit
curbs very hard. Once I switched to a standard (light) front wheel
with a frame mounted battery, the front fork behaved much more like I
expect suspended front forks to behave, and it became much easier to
climb curbs and handle bumps/rough road while I was braking.

Why would anyone want to ride a TF/E+ at high speeds with a front
battery hub?

Advantage: Optibike.