Interested in becomeing a Thelemite.
Rusty
Here's my question.
What does becomeing a Thelemite intell? What would I be infor?
Also what is the point of the E.C.G. and the Gnostic Mass?
Love is the Law. Love under Will.
Robert Oswald
EricCa...@gmail.com
Thelema -- which is nothing more than the statements with which you
started and ended your post. What you'd be in for is nothing more than
what you choose to do with it. "Thou hast no right but to do thy Will;
do this and no others shall say Nay."
For succint info, check out http://oto-usa.org/faq.html#q_thelema
As for the E.C.G. & the Gnostic Mass, I have not yet attended one, so I
can only refer you to the "official" line:
Regarding the "churchiness" of the Gnostic Mass, I just found the
following in Liber LXI Vel Causae (v.23), and it pretty much takes care
of the issue:
"Or should the ritual speak in terms (however vague) which seem to
imply Egyptian, Taoist, Buddhist, Indian, Persian, Greek, Judaic,
Christian, or Moslem philosophy, let him reflect that this is a defect
of language; the literary limitation and not the spiritual prejudice
of the man P."
netineti
I used to go to Gnostic Mass once or twice a week. It's a wonderful
thing to see.
93 93/93
netineti
The E.G.C. is a "religious" group within the O.T.O.
The Gnostic Mass is a celabration of the Tree of Life.
93 93/93
2TPOrb
found the quote at an opportune time. I was not raised Christian, and I
had recently told someone that I never got into Satanism becuase it
was, basically, too Christian. Then my girlfriend went to a Gnostic
MAss, and told me how comfortable she was because it reminded her of
all the things she enjoyed about church (e.g., the ceremony, incense,
etc.) when she was growing up Catholic. That weirded me out a little
bit....
neti...@onewest.net
> I'm planning on attending my first in a couple of weeks.
The tomb is Malkuth
The alter is Kether
The reading of the saints is to invoke male sexual energy and balance the
priestess on the alter (usually naked) playing the role of Nuit at that
point of the mass. Some mass teams choose to include female saints as
well at this point since "the law is for all."
I actually
> found the quote at an opportune time.
I was not raised Christian, and I
> had recently told someone that I never got into Satanism becuase it
> was, basically, too Christian.
discovering man's true nature and have nothing to do with xtianity
what-so-ever.
Then my girlfriend went to a Gnostic
> MAss, and told me how comfortable she was because it reminded her of
> all the things she enjoyed about church (e.g., the ceremony, incense,
> etc.) when she was growing up Catholic. That weirded me out a little
> bit....
>
their first time because it was "too churchy." Some folks who dig it are
atheists and some are not.
2TPOrb
'Regarding the "churchiness" of the Gnostic Mass, I just found the
following in Liber LXI Vel Causae (v.23), and it pretty much takes care
of the issue:
'"Or should the ritual speak in terms (however vague) which seem to
imply Egyptian, Taoist, Buddhist, Indian, Persian, Greek, Judaic,
Christian, or Moslem philosophy, let him reflect that this is a defect
of language; the literary limitation and not the spiritual prejudice of
the man P."'
~~~~~~~~~
As for Satanism & Christianity, I should note that I stumbled across it
in the early '70s, when LaVey was it's only public proponent. Even at
11yrs old, it struck me as being almost completely a reaction or
rebellion against Chistianity, and therefore held no interest for me.
I know it has grown & evolved philosophically since then, but it still
works out - for me - to an overly reactionary system (i.e., it derives
too much of it's identity by comparing &/or contrasting itself with
"old-world" religious paths), rather than the self-sustaining path of
Thelema.
neti...@onewest.net
> The quote from Liber LXI Vel Causae in my original post to this thread:
>
> 'Regarding the "churchiness" of the Gnostic Mass, I just found the
> following in Liber LXI Vel Causae (v.23), and it pretty much takes care
> of the issue:
>
> '"Or should the ritual speak in terms (however vague) which seem to
> imply Egyptian, Taoist, Buddhist, Indian, Persian, Greek, Judaic,
> Christian, or Moslem philosophy, let him reflect that this is a defect
> of language; the literary limitation and not the spiritual prejudice of
> the man P."'
distaste for anything churchy. Some students (usually young) even draw
strength from their distaste and, in my eyes, this can be a very positive
stage to pass through.
> As for Satanism & Christianity, I should note that I stumbled across it
> in the early '70s, when LaVey was it's only public proponent. Even at
> 11yrs old, it struck me as being almost completely a reaction or
> rebellion against Chistianity, and therefore held no interest for me.
>
> I know it has grown & evolved philosophically since then, but it still
> works out - for me - to an overly reactionary system (i.e., it derives
> too much of it's identity by comparing &/or contrasting itself with
> "old-world" religious paths), rather than the self-sustaining path of
> Thelema.
>
involved with Thelema and a few both Thelema and Free Masonry. This very
well could be for the reasons you sited above.
93 93/93
2TPOrb
That's why I was enthusiastic about the quote. As it is, I won't really
know 'til Sunday, when I attend my first Gnostic Mass.
The Satanists I've come to know in the past year are not particularly
involved with Thelema.... Not with conscious intent, anyway! They do,
of course, promote an ideology that closely parallels Liber OZ. They
just don't necessarily embrace Liber AL, which is what can be
considered to be a distinguishing characteristic of the Thelemite.
And that raises an interesting question; what DOES define a Thelemite
AS a Thelemite?
2TPOrb
Bible on the Altar.
I do know quite a number of Thelemic Masons; even Lon DuQuette is
active in a Masonic Lodge in California. I'm master of the local
Scottish Rite Lodge of Perfection, which happens to have the oldest
surviving Scottish Rite charter still in continuous operation. But,
even there, there's serious antagonism to anything remotely
"philosophical" or esoteric, despite the Supreme Council's official
recognition that esotericism may well be a good way to recoup
membership losses as the "old guard" dies off.
neti...@onewest.net
> active in a Masonic Lodge in California. I'm master of the local
> Scottish Rite Lodge of Perfection, which happens to have the oldest
> surviving Scottish Rite charter still in continuous operation. But,
> even there, there's serious antagonism to anything remotely
> "philosophical" or esoteric, despite the Supreme Council's official
> recognition that esotericism may well be a good way to recoup
> membership losses as the "old guard" dies off.
>
>
anything esoteric?
2TPOrb
that reason. Fortunately, Masonry isn't quite as "dead" as many on
other Hermetic paths may believe. But esotericism no longer has the
"mainstream" status it once had in Freemasonry. The Baby-boomer TV
generation of suburban shallowness took that aspect of the Fraternity
and hid it in the attic, so as not to disturb the neighbors -- or the
members. But it IS being dragged out of the dust, thanks to the
internet, alot of positive AND negative media attention, and a number
of good Masonic writers & esotericists who have been able to rise above
the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" sensationalism that just got a new burst
of energy from the "DaVinci Code".
neti...@onewest.net
> internet, alot of positive AND negative media attention, and a number
> of good Masonic writers & esotericists who have been able to rise above
> the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" sensationalism that just got a new burst
> of energy from the "DaVinci Code".
>
positive and negative?
2TPOrb
up apparently.
Anyway, I was thinking of the various movies that have come out in
recent years. Two negative movies, both based on Alan Moore
comics/graphic novels are "From Hell" & "League of Extraordinary
Gentlemenn". The last is particularly weird, because at least two of
the heros - Alan Quartermain & Tom Sawyer - are the creations of
Freemasons H. Rider Haggard & Samuel Clemens.
The positive - if fanciful - movie is, of course, "National Treasure".
Another issue is the news coverage - and various reactions to that
coverage - of the "Masonic" shooting in Patchogue last year. The
shooter just got sentenced a few days ago to 5 years, suspended, for
criminally negligent homicide. That was a very weird situation. I knew
everyone involved, especially the victim, William James. I had just
conferred the 14° of the Scottish Rite on him a few weeks before he was
killed.
neti...@onewest.net
> recent years. Two negative movies, both based on Alan Moore
> comics/graphic novels are "From Hell" & "League of Extraordinary
> Gentlemenn". The last is particularly weird, because at least two of
> the heros - Alan Quartermain & Tom Sawyer - are the creations of
> Freemasons H. Rider Haggard & Samuel Clemens.
>
it is mysterious and has heavy occult themes. This is good for attracting
some youthful types.
Moses
interested in the esoteric than the older guys. Was the esoteric stuff
more important in the older days, say the 20s?
Mike Noxaura
Actually <poking head out> i'm a satanist and a thelemite. I found
laveys philosophy too rigid and dark by itself, but then i had been
into Old Uncle Al and Liber AL for 10 years by that time.
Most serious satanists <note i do not capitalize the word> are in fact
into thelema or at least grounded in it.
I come from 11 generations of Masons and have already been invited to
join the local lodge, but i am actually waiting as i do not feel mature
enough to procede.
Now as to what a thelemite defines as a thelemite...i go with the
earlier sanctioned definition. Acceptance of at least the principal of
the message of mater therion and libers Oz and Al would be my criteria.
One cannot remain unchanged in the face of the internal arguments that
those documents create.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Juliette Williams
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
>
> Now as to what a thelemite defines as a thelemite...i go with the
> earlier sanctioned definition. Acceptance of at least the principal of
> the message of mater therion and libers Oz and Al would be my criteria.
> One cannot remain unchanged in the face of the internal arguments that
> those documents create.
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
40. Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close
into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the
Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of
the Law.
Nothing about calling oneself a Thelemite. I consider Liber AL a Holy
Book, but do not call myself a Thelemite. (Love that you called him
Mater Therion. :P Think he might have loved that, honestly! ha)
Love is the law, love under will.
Mike Noxaura
proclivities though erm...well you know what i mean by that.
i hate calling myself anything, but with all the bullhuckey floating
out there, one does have to take a stand somewhere, IMHO, of course.
2TPOrb
process of trying to put names on what I do becomes a form of the
"annihilation of opposites" that is a key to "Love" in Crowley's
writings.
E.g.; I am a Jewish Odinist and a Messianic Thelemite!
Mike Noxaura
Wow...
now that's interesting. You have totellmemoreon that one.
The other one is the same here...
Frankly? i don't know the very first whit about Odinism or asatru.
Opposites don't just annihalate though, they become more than thier
root, speaking scientifically to be specific.
That's what we're after in the Great Work, to be as the Native State or
Prime Material, only More.
Neat to meet you all, btw.
Mike Noxaura
HM RCOS
"Where a sense of humor always comes first"