I'm all up and running now...

[Suzi McMullen]

I'm very excited tonight.  Yesterday I was able to set up my first reef tank and the man at the store gave me enough water right out of his tanks that I won't have to worry too much about the cycling process.  I brought home about 15 pounds of live rock and these babies are loaded with creatures. 

 

Then tonight I set up my 2nd reef tank and he took all the water, rocks and creatures right out of his tanks.  I now have 4 saltwater fish including 2 nemo fish for my daughter.

 

I have 2 anemones in one of the tanks.  They are very cool. 

 

I even found the perfect filter for my 5 gallon tank so that the fish have more room to swim.  So far the water is still crystal clear in the fresh gallon tank and everyone seems so happy.  I'm forcing myself to be very stingy with the food so I don't cloud my water and dirty my tank.  The fish are very careful to feed fast and get all the food ate up quick.  I'm doing just a pinch twice per day. 

 

By the way, I'm in love with the Oceanic Bio-Cube.  I bought the 14 gallon and it's just the perfect size for my desktop next to my computer.  It's so nice looking and so EASY to set up.  The water movement is awesome.  The lights are perfect and it even has cool looking moonlights for overnight.  On top of that, the tank has separate ballasts for the 2 types of lights in case I want to add timers at some point and so that I can have the blue attinic lights come on 30 minutes before the white and stay on 30 minutes after.

 

Can we sent through pics on this forum?

 

Suzi

[NetMax]

re: pictures, sure, attach to the email, or attach link to a web page,
or send them to one of our moderators to post on our files pages.

NetMax

[Suzi McMullen]

Thanks. I'll get some good pics eventually. I'm learning how to get my
digital to behave on these water/glass shots.

Suzi

[Randy]

On Feb 8, 10:53 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:

> I'm very excited tonight.  Yesterday I was able to set up my first
> reef tank and the man at the store gave me enough water right out
> of his tanks that I won't have to worry too much about the cycling
> process.  I brought home about 15 pounds of live rock and these
> babies are loaded with creatures.  

The water won't help the cycle much. Better would have been
to get some of the substrate.

> Then tonight I set up my 2nd reef tank and he took all the
> water, rocks and creatures right out of his tanks.  I now have
> 4 saltwater fish including 2 nemo fish for my daughter.
>
> I have 2 anemones in one of the tanks.  They are very cool.  

You have a saltwater reef tank that has been set up for
one day and you have anemones in it? It typically takes up
to a year for a tank to become established enough to handle
an anemone, much less two of them.

--
Randy

[Suzi McMullen]

I guess we'll see. I'm rellying on the rock, filters and diligent water
changes. What do I know? All these people do is reef tanks and they've
been in business for a few years. I have no reason yet not to trust them.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "NetMax" <comput...@hotmail.com>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 9, 10:48 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> I guess we'll see.  I'm rellying on the rock, filters and diligent water
> changes.  What do I know?  All these people do is reef tanks and they've
> been in business for a few years.  I have no reason yet not to trust them.
>
> Suzi
>
>

I agree with Randy here......remember we are not in business to sell
you a reef tank so there is no financial motive in the advice we give
you.......

The Nems are definitely a no, no in a tank that immature. Additionally
two nems will be one too many unless your tank is massive which I
doubt if you only have 15Lbs of live rock in there. Water quality is a
very important factor along with lighting for anenomes - my larger
tank has been running for 10 months now and I still do not consider it
mature enough for anenomes.....I'm guessing you bought the anenomes
for the clown fish to host in. You didn't need to. Clown fish will
host in corals or indeed sometimes just don't bother. My tomato clowns
host in a leather coral - my percula clowns aren't fussed at all. I
strongly advise you to return them to the LFS. If they die they will
pollute your water and potentially kill off everything else that you
have.

You might get away with the tank you set up with all of the contents
just being transferred but keep a very close eye on it. Even cured
(mature) live rock can/will have a die off when you move it....so
unless you are extremely lucky there is likely to be a cycle.

I sincerely hope that test kits were included as part of the sales
pitch you got. You are going to need them.....I like the Salifert kits
if you can get them over there....You will need (as a minimum)

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
Phosphate
Alkalinity

You will also need a hydrometer or refractometer to measure the
salinity.

Not sure what your tank set ups are. It might help to post details
here.

There are a number of things that can help you have a successful reef
tank and these are probably the least expensive:-

1. Research, research, research. Ask questions and read books. A
couple of good ones are:-

Natural Reef Aquariums by John Tullock
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner

Get as much advice as you can. Don't just rely on the guy selling you
the stuff. A lot of LFS's can be very good but there are also those
just wanting your money

2. Patience. Setting up a successful reef tank takes time to get it
right. Rushing it will generally mean that you will hit problems. You
might be able to resolve them or it might end it tears. Far better to
minimise the problems in the first place.

Come back to us with the tank sizes, amount of live rock, equipment in
the tank -skimmer, powerhead(s), filter (if you have one) and your
test results.....and please consider returning the anenomes asap. If
you have any ammonia or nitrites then consider getting the LFS to hold
onto the clowns for you until the tank has cycled.
(BTW what are the other two fish?)

HTH and sorry if it is a dampner on your enthusiasm.......reef keeping
is a very satisfying (if expensive) branch of this hobby. We're only
trying to help you to get it right

Gill

[Mister Gardener]

Gill Passman wrote:

HTH and sorry if it is a dampner on your enthusiasm.......reef keeping
is a very satisfying (if expensive) branch of this hobby. We're only
trying to help you to get it right
  

I am absolutely stunned at the amount of bad advice and money driven sales we have seen here in just this past week. We're always suspicious of the big box stores, we encourage supporting the local fish sellers, but we hear of these nightmare stories coming from people working at the local fish sellers. It's becoming quite a challenge finding a Ma and Pa store where Ma and Pa know what they're doing and put the best interest of the fish first.

MG

[Suzi McMullen]

Gill,
I didn't exactly choose to buy the anemones. I bought a huge piece of
fully matured rock and they are on it. So I can't really return them and
even though I have read about how to coax them to move I certainly am not
going to try it. I'll watch them close and remove them promptly if they
die. I work out of the house so I can moniter things all day long.

As for tanks I have 2. For now I'm using 50/50 bulbs in the one with
the anemones until I can afford MH. The other tank is a 14 gallon biocube
so it came with 2 sets of lights on separate ballasts with the blue attinic
bulbs and the full spectrum bulbs. I know to turn on the blue lights 30
minutes before and leave them on 30 minutes after the other bulbs.

The first tank is a 10 gallon normal tank with a typical inexpensive
filter that does up to 20 gallons. I plan to add the protien skimmer and
meant to before now. I'm not getting all this stuff from this one shop.
I've only gotten the live rock, water, fish and food from him.

The fish are not in the same tank with the anemones. These are flower
anemones and I haven't found out yet what I can safely have with it since I
read they don't play nice with nemo fish. My plan is just to learn about
the chemical testing first. I don't plan to buy fish for that tank as I
will eventually concentrate on corals. He said he would test weekly for me
until I buy a kit and I've been looking at the big kits online that do
everything imaginable. I was looking at the master test kit. I have the
link saved someplace but don't remember the brand name of it.

As for measuring the salinity, I have been planning to just have him
mix the salt for me. He only charges 1 dollar per gallon and with such
small systems I don't think it would break me at all to do the weekly water
changes that way. But I imagine someday I'll get my own RO system and
hydrometer. I am just hoping to take this one piece at a time since the
learning curve is so high.

The bio-cube has the bio-balls in them along with the normal sponge and
separate filter.. What's the name of the purple stuff that grows on these
rock? These rocks are covered with a lot of the purple stuff on it
already. I don't have any substrate in the bio-cube and I have just some
normal gravel in the other tank because I thought I would be doing
freshwater until I suddenly changed my mind. I plan to add more live rock
to both systems and cycle them separately in a big bucket. I already have
all the equipment I need because of my grow room operation.

Last night I bought another 15 pounds of live rock for the bio-cube.
Am I confusing you enough yet? So I have a total of roughly 30 pounds of
live rock divided between 2 systems, 10 and 14 gallons and the anemones and
various snails, wormy things, and so many critters I can't begin to know
what they are.

The fish that I have are 2 nemo/clown fish and 2 I forget the kind.
They are not supposed to get more than 2 inches, are blue/green and look
like they glow if that helps. I believe he called them damsels.

I added a powerhead to the 10 gallon tank for extra water movement and
the water movement is already pretty high in the bio-cube. I figured I'd
just change the filters every couple of weeks at first and do the 25% water
changes each week. Beyond that it's all trial and error.

That's it so far. Of course both tanks are heated and so far they
seem to be staying stable at 78 degrees. Being home all day I'll be able to
see if anything changes. I plan to get back up heaters to have just in case
these go out. I have an extra filter that I was planning to use either for
back up or for a future tank. I could put that on the tank with the
anemones in it. Would more than one filter be a problem or a help?

Suzi

[Suzi McMullen]

This is definitely a small local store.  It's a father and son business.  I think they have been in business a couple of years but my husband swears they were in business before we moved to California and came back.  If he's right they have been in business for at least 6 years because we have been back almost 3 and were gone almost 3.

 

Suzi

----- Original Message -----

From: Mister Gardener

To: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:42 AM

Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Mister Gardener]

Suzi McMullen wrote:

This is definitely a small local store.  It's a father and son business.  I think they have been in business a couple of years but my husband swears they were in business before we moved to California and came back.  If he's right they have been in business for at least 6 years because we have been back almost 3 and were gone almost 3.

Keep doing your homework - read, read, read; I suspect you'll learn quickly which advice is solid and which needs to be ignored.
Dedicated hobbyists usually come out on top, it just pains me to see how many spooky detours they have to take when receiving bad information. Stick with us - we have a couple of members who have started from the very beginning with marine tanks and we've learned right along with them - Gill has posted, (blogged?), extensively on TFA from the first day she decided to take the plunge. Good reading.

MG

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 9, 11:56 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Gill,
>      I didn't exactly choose to buy the anemones.  I bought a huge piece of
> fully matured rock and they are on it.  So I can't really return them and
> even though I have read about how to coax them to move I certainly am not
> going to try it.  I'll watch them close and remove them promptly if they
> die.  I work out of the house so I can moniter things all day long.

Can you describe the anemones in more detail - the only flower
anemones I know of are the type you plant in the garden - lol.
Generally, but not always, the anemones that you get on live rock will
be aiptasia which are a nasty. Not that I'm saying yours our but it
would be good to get an ID on them from the onset. You might find this
link useful in identifying any hitch hikers you got on the live rock:-

http://www.xtalworld.com/Aquarium/hitchfaq.htm

>
>      As for tanks I have 2.  For now I'm using 50/50 bulbs in the one with
> the anemones until I can afford MH.  The other tank is a 14 gallon biocube
> so it came with 2 sets of lights on separate ballasts with the blue attinic
> bulbs and the full spectrum bulbs.  I know to turn on the blue lights 30
> minutes before and leave them on 30 minutes after the other bulbs.
>
>      The first tank is a 10 gallon normal tank with a typical inexpensive
> filter that does up to 20 gallons.  I plan to add the protien skimmer and
> meant to before now.  I'm not getting all this stuff from this one shop.
> I've only gotten the live rock, water, fish and food from him.

If I've got this right the tank with the "anenomes" is the 10 gall and
the tank with the fish is the 14Gall.......if that is the case in
terms of fish you should just be looking at the clown fish pair in a
tank that size.

As for filters - you do not want to be running a "conventional" filter
system in a reef tank. They become nitrate factories which is a big
no, no for corals etc. If, as I presume, you are wanting to use the
berlin method (or some form of it), you want Live Rock and a skimmer.
There are now some reasonably priced Nano skimmers on the market - you
wouldn't want anything more meaty on tanks your size. If you haven't
got a skimmer then you are looking at very frequent water changes.

>
>      The fish are not in the same tank with the anemones.  These are flower
> anemones and I haven't found out yet what I can safely have with it since I
> read they don't play nice with nemo fish.  My plan is just to learn about
> the chemical testing first.  I don't plan to buy fish for that tank as I
> will eventually concentrate on corals.  He said he would test weekly for me
> until I buy a kit and I've been looking at the big kits online that do
> everything imaginable.  I was looking at the master test kit.  I have the
> link saved someplace but don't remember the brand name of it.

Weekly, probably isn't frequently enough when the tank is cycling/
new.....once established you should get away with it. As you already
have fish then you should be testing daily.

>
>       As for measuring the salinity, I have been planning to just have him
> mix the salt for me.  He only charges 1 dollar per gallon and with such
> small systems I don't think it would break me at all to do the weekly water
> changes that way.  But I imagine someday I'll get my own RO system and
> hydrometer.  I am just hoping to take this one piece at a time since the
> learning curve is so high.
>

It is not just the salinity of the water that you are adding that is
important - it is the salinity of the water in your tank and IMO this
is far more important. This will change with evaporation and you will
need to be thinking of topping up the tank water with RO water at
least every other day if not on a daily basis. If you don't do the top
offs the salinity can rise to levels that will kill your
livestock......and I learnt that one by experience.....

Most reefers will recommend keeping your Sg at 1.026.....I tend to
keep mine at 1.025 at the moment as I don't have a ready available
supply of RO water (by this I mean I have to go to the LFS to buy it
rather than having my own RO unit). This is because I know if the top
up is delayed by a day it is unlikely that my Sg will rise to
hazardous levels.

>      The bio-cube has the bio-balls in them along with the normal sponge and
> separate filter..  What's the name of the purple stuff that grows on these
> rock?   These rocks are covered with a lot of the purple stuff on it
> already.  I don't have any substrate in the bio-cube and I have just some
> normal gravel in the other tank because I thought I would be doing
> freshwater until I suddenly changed my mind.  I plan to add more live rock
> to both systems and cycle them separately in a big bucket.  I already have
> all the equipment I need because of my grow room operation.
>

You want to remove the bio-balls and the sponge or you will have
problems with nitrates. Use the filter for your phosphate remover and
carbon - both of which you will almost certainly need. It sounds to me
as if you have sufficient live rock in the tanks at around 15Lbs per
tank - most work on the basis of 1 to 1 1/2 Lbs of Live Rock per
gallon. If you do add more then add it slowly into the tank and
monitor for ammonia/nitrite spikes.

The purple is coraline algae and generally a good thing.....I allow it
to grow on the back/sides of my tanks but keep the front glass clean -
a razor blade is the best way to remove it from the glass on the
front.

>       Last night I bought another 15 pounds of live rock for the bio-cube.
> Am I confusing you enough yet?  So I have a total of roughly 30 pounds of
> live rock divided between 2 systems, 10 and 14 gallons and the anemones and
> various snails, wormy things, and so many critters I can't begin to know
> what they are.
>
>       The fish that I have are 2 nemo/clown fish and 2 I forget the kind.
> They are not supposed to get more than 2 inches, are blue/green and look
> like they glow if that helps.  I believe he called them damsels.

Sounds like they are green chromis. These are indeed a member of the
damsel family but have a slightly better reputation in a reef tank.
They can be aggressive towards one another though so IMO best kept in
schools - I had 6 and they killed off one of them so I'm down to 5 -
but to keep this number you would need a larger tank. From talking to
other reefers the saying YMMV is very much true with these fish......I
would be tempted to move the chromis into the other tank and just keep
a pair of fish in each. Both species are reef safe so would not upset
your plans for corals.

>
>       I added a powerhead to the 10 gallon tank for extra water movement and
> the water movement is already pretty high in the bio-cube.  I figured I'd
> just change the filters every couple of weeks at first and do the 25% water
> changes each week.  Beyond that it's all trial and error.

You want to aim for a flow rate of at least 20 times per hour. Try and
get some surface movement as this will help dissipate CO2 and help
maintain your pH at a high enough level.

>
>       That's it so far.  Of course both tanks are heated and so far they
> seem to be staying stable at 78 degrees.  Being home all day I'll be able to
> see if anything changes.  I plan to get back up heaters to have just in case
> these go out.  I have an extra filter that I was planning to use either for
> back up or for a future tank.  I could put that on the tank with the
> anemones in it.  Would more than one filter be a problem or a help?

Any biological filtration is a hindrance IMO.....

Gill
>
> Suzi

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 9, 12:13 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

>
> Stick with us - we have a couple of members who have started from the
> very beginning with marine tanks and we've learned right along with them
> - Gill has posted, (blogged?), extensively on TFA from the first day she
> decided to take the plunge. Good reading.
>
> MG

Oh, dear - I guess it was very much like blogging when I first started
that 15 gall Nano......It's still running but very different to how it
started. I have begun to add corals back in there again after
discovering that even after removing them to make it FOWLR I still
ended up with Xenia and Star Polyps - LOL - it now has a rather nice
toadstool and I'm going to use it to grow on some mushroom frags when
I gather up the courage to get the knife to my main colony in the
bigger tank.

Its been a long time since I posted on the larger tank as
well......hmmmm....it's having its ups and downs - mainly due to a
faulty lighting unit and homicidal hermit crabs that keep killing my
turbo snails to try their shells out for size. Of course the death of
the turbos has led to a spread of hair algae and in a mad moment of
resolve (plus I'm fed up of plucking out hair algae) I invested in
some more hermits, an urchin and an emerald crab and of course more
phosphate remover......I'll be getting some more snails but not just
turbos as they just appeal so much to the hermits - they even murdered
a giant mexican turbo before realising that his shell was just way too
ambitious for them.....

Gill

[Mister Gardener]

Gill Passman wrote:

Oh, dear - I guess it was very much like blogging when I first started
that 15 gall Nano......

While I was reading your previous lengthy message I was thinking, my word hasn't our Gilly come a long way in her marine pursuits, and by the time I got to the end of your message I was thinking, my word, her messages are longer than my own. I must do something about that.

MG

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 9, 8:48 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

Oh dear again.....that post was 3 times in length before I did some
editing......I'm obviously going through another verbose
stage...... :-)

Gill (thinking maybe she needs to find something more to life than
posting prose on TFA - nah.....)

[Mister Gardener]

Gill Passman wrote:

Gill (thinking maybe she needs to find something more to life than
posting prose on TFA - nah.....)


  

Hey, countries are at war, people are fighting in the streets, and Amsterdam is closing down the red light district. Might as well stay close to home and post prose to TFA.

MG

[Suzi McMullen]

Thanks. That gives me plenty to ponder. I hadn't thought about topping off
with plain RO water. I'm going to get a table top variety very soon. In
the meantime, I'll have to go back to the LFS on Monday and get buckets of
RO with and without salt. I'll be looking for a skimmer and hydrometer too.
:)

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gill Passman" <gi...@taylorpassman.co.uk>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Randy]

On Feb 9, 6:18 am, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:48 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:

> You might get away with the tank you set up with all of the contents
> just being transferred but keep a very close eye on it. Even cured
> (mature) live rock can/will have a die off when you move it....so
> unless you are extremely lucky there is likely to be a cycle.
>
> I sincerely hope that test kits were included as part of the sales
> pitch you got. You are going to need them.....I like the Salifert kits
> if you can get them over there....You will need (as a minimum)
>
> Ammonia
> Nitrite
> Nitrate
> pH
> Phosphate
> Alkalinity

Calcium
Copper (If you use tapwater).

My local tapwater actually contains copper and copper
is a reef killer :(

> You will also need a hydrometer or refractometer to measure the
> salinity.

I ordered a refractometer tonight off Ebay, cost me 31 dollars
including shipping. With them that cheap, and the problems
associated with hydrometers (Especially Instant Ocean brand
hydrometers), the refractometer is the only way to go for me.

> 1. Research, research, research. Ask questions and read books. A
> couple of good ones are:-
>
> Natural Reef Aquariums by John Tullock
> The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner
>
> Get as much advice as you can. Don't just rely on the guy selling you
> the stuff. A lot of LFS's can be very good but there are also those
> just wanting your money

http://www.thereeftank.com/

That is my favorite SW hangout. A lot of people there that have a
lot more experience with SW than I could ever dream of having.
And, if they can handle some of the dumb questions I have asked
on there, they can handle anything :)

> 2. Patience. Setting up a successful reef tank takes time to get it
> right. Rushing it will generally mean that you will hit problems. You
> might be able to resolve them or it might end it tears. Far better to
> minimise the problems in the first place.

The #1 saying I see/hear about Reef Tanks:

Nothing comes fast on a Reef except failure.

> Come back to us with the tank sizes, amount of live rock, equipment in
> the tank -skimmer, powerhead(s), filter (if you have one) and your
> test results.....and please consider returning the anenomes asap. If
> you have any ammonia or nitrites then consider getting the LFS to hold
> onto the clowns for you until the tank has cycled.
> (BTW what are the other two fish?)

Agreed. If the LFS won't keep it (or better refund it), then it is
time
to find a new LFS. The one I use most here where I live has had
a live rock for me for almost a month now waiting on me to get
a SW tank established enough to put the rock in it without killing
the inverts on it.

--
Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 9, 6:42 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

100% agreed. And, I think the LFS is going to become a thing of the
past (at least in the US) with the advent of internet shopping. My LFS
is the one that told me I could get my refractometer online cheaper
than
he can order one, much less sell it to me.

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 9, 11:26 am, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:56 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Gill,
> >      I didn't exactly choose to buy the anemones.  I bought a huge piece of
> > fully matured rock and they are on it.  So I can't really return them and
> > even though I have read about how to coax them to move I certainly am not
> > going to try it.  I'll watch them close and remove them promptly if they
> > die.  I work out of the house so I can moniter things all day long.
>
> Can you describe the anemones in more detail - the only flower
> anemones I know of are the type you plant in the garden - lol.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=flower+anemone+Salt+water&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Enjoy :)

> As for filters - you do not want to be running a "conventional" filter
> system in a reef tank. They become nitrate factories which is a big
> no, no for corals etc. If, as I presume, you are wanting to use the
> berlin method (or some form of it), you want Live Rock and a skimmer.
> There are now some reasonably priced Nano skimmers on the market - you
> wouldn't want anything more meaty on tanks your size. If you haven't
> got a skimmer then you are looking at very frequent water changes.

I have to disagree about the skimmer. You can successfully run a
reef, mixed reef, or a fish only SW tank without a skimmer. When you
do it, you have to ramp up the water changes, decrease the time
between
them and decrease the time between changing the filters. The
main reason people use skimmers is because they are more cost
effective than the water changes are.

The 12G nano tank that I is an Instant Ocean 12G and it has a
Bio-Wheel filtration system in it that fits inside the tank but it
works no differently than a FW HOB filter.None of the nano tank
kits I looked at had skimmers in them.

So yes, you can run one without a skimmer as long as you
know what you have to do to not run a skimmer. But, it is more
cost effective to have one.

> >      The fish are not in the same tank with the anemones.  These are flower
> > anemones and I haven't found out yet what I can safely have with it since I
> > read they don't play nice with nemo fish.  My plan is just to learn about
> > the chemical testing first.  I don't plan to buy fish for that tank as I
> > will eventually concentrate on corals.  He said he would test weekly for me
> > until I buy a kit and I've been looking at the big kits online that do
> > everything imaginable.  I was looking at the master test kit.  I have the
> > link saved someplace but don't remember the brand name of it.

Most "Master Kits" sold in the USA are typically API brand kits. I
paid
about 30 dollars for mine.

> Weekly, probably isn't frequently enough when the tank is cycling/
> new.....once established you should get away with it. As you already
> have fish then you should be testing daily.

With everything she has in it, yes, daily testing but if the tank goes
through a true cycle (and not a mini-cycle) then most, if not all, if
the
livestock she has isn't going to survive it.

> >       As for measuring the salinity, I have been planning to just have him
> > mix the salt for me.  He only charges 1 dollar per gallon and with such
> > small systems I don't think it would break me at all to do the weekly water
> > changes that way.  But I imagine someday I'll get my own RO system and
> > hydrometer.  I am just hoping to take this one piece at a time since the
> > learning curve is so high.
>
> It is not just the salinity of the water that you are adding that is
> important - it is the salinity of the water in your tank and IMO this
> is far more important. This will change with evaporation and you will
> need to be thinking of topping up the tank water with RO water at
> least every other day if not on a daily basis. If you don't do the top
> offs the salinity can rise to levels that will kill your
> livestock......and I learnt that one by experience.....

Oops :( Sorry you learned that the hard way. And yes, you are
correct that the tank should be topped of at least every other
day but preferably daily to prevent the salinity swings. What
also happens with salinity swings are PH swings and the PH
swings are just as deadly (if not more so) than the salinity
swings are.

> Most reefers will recommend keeping your Sg at 1.026.....I tend to
> keep mine at 1.025 at the moment as I don't have a ready available
> supply of RO water (by this I mean I have to go to the LFS to buy it
> rather than having my own RO unit). This is because I know if the top
> up is delayed by a day it is unlikely that my Sg will rise to
> hazardous levels.

Do you have a refractometer or a hydrometer? If a hydro, what brand?
The Instant Ocean brand hydrometers are off by as much as .006
even when brand new :( I learned that one last night but fortunately
it wasn't disastrous.

> The purple is coraline algae and generally a good thing.....I allow it
> to grow on the back/sides of my tanks but keep the front glass clean -
> a razor blade is the best way to remove it from the glass on the
> front.

No. Please don't use a razor blade. Most are covered with a very
thin coat(either oil or silicon) to keep them from sticking to the
paper wrapper they come in or either oil to keep the bulk packs
from sticking together.
Invest in an algea scraper. One of the magnetic ones.

> >       Last night I bought another 15 pounds of live rock for the bio-cube.
> > Am I confusing you enough yet?  So I have a total of roughly 30 pounds of
> > live rock divided between 2 systems, 10 and 14 gallons and the anemones and
> > various snails, wormy things, and so many critters I can't begin to know
> > what they are.

With that much live rock in those two tanks, ditch the bio-balls
completely.
Your bio-balls will compete with your LR and you will end up with a
tank
crash from it.

> >       The fish that I have are 2 nemo/clown fish and 2 I forget the kind.
> > They are not supposed to get more than 2 inches, are blue/green and look
> > like they glow if that helps.  I believe he called them damsels.
>
> Sounds like they are green chromis. These are indeed a member of the
> damsel family but have a slightly better reputation in a reef tank.
> They can be aggressive towards one another though so IMO best kept in
> schools - I had 6 and they killed off one of them so I'm down to 5 -
> but to keep this number you would need a larger tank. From talking to
> other reefers the saying YMMV is very much true with these fish......I
> would be tempted to move the chromis into the other tank and just keep
> a pair of fish in each. Both species are reef safe so would not upset
> your plans for corals.

Most chromis, and especially Blue Damsels, are extremely agressive
after having been in the tank long enough to claim a spot in the tank.
And yes, the YMMV is very applicable with them.

> >       I added a powerhead to the 10 gallon tank for extra water movement and
> > the water movement is already pretty high in the bio-cube.  I figured I'd
> > just change the filters every couple of weeks at first and do the 25% water
> > changes each week.  Beyond that it's all trial and error.
>
> You want to aim for a flow rate of at least 20 times per hour. Try and
> get some surface movement as this will help dissipate CO2 and help
> maintain your pH at a high enough level.

Note about flow rate in a tank. There are two distinct flowrates in a
tank (whether it is SW or FW):

1) Flowrate through the filtration system. Whether it be a wet/dry,
a sump, an HOB, a canister filter or what kind of filtration system.
You don't ever want to exceed the flowrate capacity of the filter
system. If you have a skimmer in a sump, then you don't want
the flowrate through the sump to be any more than the flow rate
that your skimmer can handle. If you exceed it, then you are
just wasting waterflow and not letting the skimmer do it's job.
You are just pumping detritus in a big circle without giving the
filtration system a chance to work.

2) Flowrate in the tank itself. The tank flowrate is total flow
through
the tank itself. It includes the flowrate through the filter system
but it also includes powerheads and closed loop systems.

Many people get the two confused.

> >       That's it so far.  Of course both tanks are heated and so far they
> > seem to be staying stable at 78 degrees.  Being home all day I'll be able to
> > see if anything changes.  I plan to get back up heaters to have just in case
> > these go out.  I have an extra filter that I was planning to use either for
> > back up or for a future tank.  I could put that on the tank with the
> > anemones in it.  Would more than one filter be a problem or a help?
>
> Any biological filtration is a hindrance IMO.....

You think biological filtration in a Reef Tank is a hindrance?
Live Rock is biological filtration.
Wet/Dry systems are biological filtration.
Sumps/Refugiums are biological filtration.
Bacterialogical filtration is biological filtration.

You can run a Reef Tank without mechanical or chemical filtration.
You will *not* run a Reef Tank without biological filtration.

Biological filtration is your best friend in a Reef Tank.

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 10, 7:36 am, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=flower+anemone+Salt+water&um=...
>
> Enjoy :)

Thanks :-) Never seen them in the UK

>
> I have to disagree about the skimmer. You can successfully run a
> reef, mixed reef, or a fish only SW tank without a skimmer. When you
> do it, you have to ramp up the water changes, decrease the time
> between
> them and decrease the time between changing the filters. The
> main reason people use skimmers is because they are more cost
> effective than the water changes are.

You can successfully run a marine tank without a skimmer IF you know
what you are doing and have the experience to do so. Altum, and I
believe Marco, on this group have both successfully done so in the
past but both of these people are very experienced fishkeepers. I
would not recommend that a newbie to the hobby should attempt it
unless they have a very clear understanding of the chemistry
involved.

I don't run skimmers because of the cost effectiveness - I run them as
they are an integral part of using the Berlin System of filtration
according to every book, article and experienced reef keeper I've read/
spoken to.

>
> The 12G nano tank that I is an Instant Ocean 12G and it has a
> Bio-Wheel filtration system in it that fits inside the tank but it
> works no differently than a FW HOB filter.None of the nano tank
> kits I looked at had skimmers in them.

They do now. When I set up my Nano 18 months ago skimmers for a tank
that small were very difficult to come by - I did find one though and
a great PITA it is. The industry has moved on though to meet the
increasing demand for Nano tanks. In the UK almost all of the big
manufacturers have now added Nano skimmers to their ranges.

>
> So yes, you can run one without a skimmer as long as you
> know what you have to do to not run a skimmer. But, it is more
> cost effective to have one.
>

Not disagreeing but would not recommend anyone new to marine attempts
it now that the skimmers are readily available. I wonder how many
failures there are compared to successes in attempting it.

> Most "Master Kits" sold in the USA are typically API brand kits. I
> paid
> about 30 dollars for mine.

Test kits are a small price to pay IMO for protecting the well being
of your livestock/pets - especially when you consider the cost of
replacing everything if you get a wipeout that could have been
detected if you were running tests....

>
>
> With everything she has in it, yes, daily testing but if the tank goes
> through a true cycle (and not a mini-cycle) then most, if not all, if
> the
> livestock she has isn't going to survive it.
>

I know, but I wasn't going to put it quite that bluntly until Suzi
gave us some test results.....occassionally (very occassionally) I've
heard of people getting away with it. I hope that Suzi will be one of
them. Daily testing will give her the opportunity to reacte and
correct the situation which will lessen the risk to the livestock - at
least it will give her a chance to get them out the tank and back to
the LFS until the tank has cycled.

>
> Oops :( Sorry you learned that the hard way. And yes, you are
> correct that the tank should be topped of at least every other
> day but preferably daily to prevent the salinity swings. What
> also happens with salinity swings are PH swings and the PH
> swings are just as deadly (if not more so) than the salinity
> swings are.

I was on holiday and hadn't left strict instructions to the fish
sitters on top offs. It was my Nano tank which of course being a
smaller volume of water deteriated quicker than a larger tank
would.......the fish were OK but I lost some corals and inverts
(shrimps, urchins) - others I managed to move over successfully to the
larger tank while I corrected the water in the Nano. Suprisingly some
xenia and stars emerged again once the water was good....

>
> > Most reefers will recommend keeping your Sg at 1.026.....I tend to
> > keep mine at 1.025 at the moment as I don't have a ready available
> > supply of RO water (by this I mean I have to go to the LFS to buy it
> > rather than having my own RO unit). This is because I know if the top
> > up is delayed by a day it is unlikely that my Sg will rise to
> > hazardous levels.
>
> Do you have a refractometer or a hydrometer? If a hydro, what brand?
> The Instant Ocean brand hydrometers are off by as much as .006
> even when brand new :( I learned that one last night but fortunately
> it wasn't disastrous.

I'm currently using a Red Sea Hydrometer which is driving me
nuts.....a refractometer is on its way next week now I've had my tax
rebate......the problem with hydrometers is not only do they stick and
need a great deal of rinsing to get them to work but the results can
also differ depending on the temperature of the water. There are ways
of working out the exact Sg based on the temperature but these are
quite complicated - for a beginner who cannot splash out on a
refractometer right away they give a reasonable guide - stability
really being the key initially rather than total accuracy of readings.

>
> No. Please don't use a razor blade. Most are covered with a very
> thin coat(either oil or silicon) to keep them from sticking to the
> paper wrapper they come in or either oil to keep the bulk packs
> from sticking together.
> Invest in an algea scraper. One of the magnetic ones.
>

Ah, here I think something got lost in the translation between UK and
US American. I'm using the term "razor blade" generically as it would
be understood in the UK. My magnetic algae scraper has "razor blades"
- others I know of use the DIY tool which is basically a "razor blade"
mounted with a handle.....usually used for scraping off paint or
cleaning ceramic hobs etc.

>
> Most chromis, and especially Blue Damsels, are extremely agressive
> after having been in the tank long enough to claim a spot in the tank.
> And yes, the YMMV is very applicable with them.

My understanding is that the Blue/Green chromis are the best of the
lot.....I don't think I would consider any of the other damsels in my
tank - however I can imagine that keeping some in a species tank would
be quite spectacular if kept in large enough numbers to stop them
killing one another....

>
>
> Note about flow rate in a tank. There are two distinct flowrates in a
> tank (whether it is SW or FW):

I disagree.....flow rate is flow rate......the actual rate of flow
appropriate will depend on the application....therefore the pump needs
to be suited to the job in hand...

>
> > >       That's it so far.  Of course both tanks are heated and so far they
> > > seem to be staying stable at 78 degrees.  Being home all day I'll be able to
> > > see if anything changes.  I plan to get back up heaters to have just in case
> > > these go out.  I have an extra filter that I was planning to use either for
> > > back up or for a future tank.  I could put that on the tank with the
> > > anemones in it.  Would more than one filter be a problem or a help?


>
> > Any biological filtration is a hindrance IMO.....
>
> You think biological filtration in a Reef Tank is a hindrance?
> Live Rock is biological filtration.
> Wet/Dry systems are biological filtration.
> Sumps/Refugiums are biological filtration.
> Bacterialogical filtration is biological filtration.
>
> You can run a Reef Tank without mechanical or chemical filtration.
> You will *not* run a Reef Tank without biological filtration.
>
> Biological filtration is your best friend in a Reef Tank.

Used the wrong terminology, although in the context used I think it
pretty obvious what I meant, especially when biological filtration as
understood in the freshwater world is using filters, cannisters,
sponges, floss, bio-balls etc which is something that you would not
want to use in a reef tank.

"Biological" filtration in a reef tank with Live Rock (and sand) is
done by the bacteria and creatures within it. Clean up crew also play
a major part in maintaining the balance and eco-system.......The
process is then taken one step further in the nitrogen cycle by
Nitrogen eventually being released whereas in a FW tank this remains
in the water as Nitrates. You are trying to create a natural balance
without the mechanical intervention that is used in the freshwater
environment....

Gill

[Suzi McMullen]

Thanks for all this great info. I'm running out to HyVee today to get some
of the RO water since the LFS isn't open til tomorrow.

I could run up to a place I know is open and get the test kits and the
hydrometer. Any suggestions on a name brand I can trust?

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy" <onedu...@comcast.net>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 1:36 AM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Suzi McMullen]

Ok, here's another dumb question. If you don't have live rock, or inverts
in your tank, what are you using to cycle the tank?

If you have fish in there to cycle it, couldn't I set up a temporary tank to
put the live rock in and cure it the way I keep reading about? I'm
specifically talking about 30 gallon bucket, salt water mix, heater, power
heads to move the water and 50 percent water changes every few days. And
daily testing of course.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy" <onedu...@comcast.net>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:46 AM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 10, 6:46 am, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Calcium
> Copper (If you use tapwater).

Calcium when she starts keeping corals - although it does not hurt
before but hopefully the saltwater mix she is getting from her LFS
should not have overly high calcium levels. If you want to be pedantic
you really should add Magnesium rather than copper......Magnesium
levels play a greater role in the stability of the reef.....

Noone, setting up a reef tank should even consider using tap water -
not just because of the copper but also because of all the other
metals and impurities that will be deadly to the reef......If you were
using tapwater then IMO you would want to test for more than just
copper and in reality by the time you've paid out for all those test
kits it would be more cost effective to have bought your own RO unit

>
> My local tapwater actually contains copper and copper
> is a reef killer :(

Almost all domestic pipework in the UK is copper (and I would guess it
is the same all over) - another reason not to even consider using
tapwater in a reef tank

>
> > You will also need a hydrometer or refractometer to measure the
> > salinity.
>
> I ordered a refractometer tonight off Ebay, cost me 31 dollars
> including shipping. With them that cheap, and the problems
> associated with hydrometers (Especially Instant Ocean brand
> hydrometers), the refractometer is the only way to go for me.

I am inclined to agree with you here. My hydrometer drives me nuts and
then of course there is the added complication of making allowances
for water temperature.

>
> > 1. Research, research, research. Ask questions and read books. A
> > couple of good ones are:-
>
> > Natural Reef Aquariums by John Tullock
> > The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner
>
> > Get as much advice as you can. Don't just rely on the guy selling you
> > the stuff. A lot of LFS's can be very good but there are also those
> > just wanting your money
>
> http://www.thereeftank.com/
>
> That is my favorite SW hangout. A lot of people there that have a
> lot more experience with SW than I could ever dream of having.
> And, if they can handle some of the dumb questions I have asked
> on there, they can handle anything :)
>

Agreed on using the more specialist reef forums. I use a UK based one.
They also have the benefit of being able to get bargains from other
members in terms of 2nd hand kit, frags, live rock etc etc

> > 2. Patience. Setting up a successful reef tank takes time to get it
> > right. Rushing it will generally mean that you will hit problems. You
> > might be able to resolve them or it might end it tears. Far better to
> > minimise the problems in the first place.
>
> The #1 saying I see/hear about Reef Tanks:
>
> Nothing comes fast on a Reef except failure.
>

LOL - I've got one for you in return

The only stupid thing about a stupid question is not asking it.....

> Agreed. If the LFS won't keep it (or better refund it), then it is
> time
> to find a new LFS. The one I use most here where I live has had
> a live rock for me for almost a month now waiting on me to get
> a SW tank established enough to put the rock in it without killing
> the inverts on it.

OK - agreed that if an LFS won't keep fish, wrongly sold IMO, until
the tank is ready it's time to find a new LFS - mine will keep
livestock until a tank is ready - indeed one place I go has been
holding some cleaner shrimps for me since November - the reason I
haven't got them yet is his place is a bit out of the way and
additionally I know it won't just be the shrimps I come home with so
need to save some pennies before going there.

Curious as to why the LFS is holding Live Rock for you unless he is
curing it for you.....what stage is your tank at? Once the water is
in, the parameters are correct and you are sure the equipment is
working then you should be able to add to the Live Rock and start the
cycle.....unless of course you are adding more in which case having
the LFS holding onto additional rock makes some sort of sense.

Gill

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 10, 12:04 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> If you have fish in there to cycle it, couldn't I set up a temporary tank to
> put the live rock in and cure it the way I keep reading about?  I'm
> specifically talking about 30 gallon bucket, salt water mix, heater, power
> heads to move the water and 50 percent water changes every few days.  And
> daily testing of course.
>
> Suzi
>
>

You could do this, yes....but if you did you would have to provide
some sort of filtration system for the fish in the tank. Basically you
would be setting up a marine fish only tank and then adding in Live
Rock at a later date.....because you wouldn't be using the Berlin
Method you will get nitrates......I suppose what I might consider in
your position, if you have a spare tank, is leave the main tank to
cycle with the Live Rock and then add the fish back into it once the
cycle is complete rather than doing it the other way round - pretty
much the equivalent of returning the fish to the LFS but you just keep
them at home instead....If the Live Rock that you bought is pretty
much cured already this could be achieved within days - I think my
350L cycled in a week whereas the Nano took 3 weeks....

Gill

[Suzi McMullen]

Would the 14 gallon bio cube be big enough to cycle all the rock? I could
move the fish over to the 10 gallon tank which does have a filter on it
while I'm trying to sort through all of this. I could then put all the rock
into the bio-cube while waiting for both tanks to get the right readings.

I'm going to buy a better test today and see if this other (more distant but
open LFS) can get me some saltwater mixed today in order to do daily
changes. I have 3 6 gallon buckets to use for the transportation. The
other LFS is only a few blocks away.

I'm still very confused about the filtration issue..

The bio-cube is sold with the correct lights for keeping corals. It comes
with the bio-balls, sponge and the filter. So I just fished out the
bio-balls this morning since that's what I keep getting told to do. But I
should also take out the filter too? The live rock will really keep the
whole tank in balance once the tank has cycled?

Suzi

[Gill Passman]

On Feb 10, 12:35 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Would the 14 gallon bio cube be big enough to cycle all the rock?  I could
> move the fish over to the 10 gallon tank which does have a filter on it
> while I'm trying to sort through all of this.  I could then put all the rock
> into the bio-cube while waiting for both tanks to get the right readings.
>

The best bet is still to return the fish to the LFS - putting them in
the other tank would really be a last resort. Personally I think you
have had some very bad advice from your LFS who appears to be looking
at getting the short term buck from you rather than your long term
business and customer loyalty.

I also think you are probably taking on too much by trying to set up
two tanks at once - with experience it could be done but the learning
curve especially when starting up is so steep that I think most would
struggle to cope. In my honest opinion you would be best off just
setting up the Bio-cube for now - once cycled you could keep your
clownfish in there but in terms of bio-load probably not the chromis
as well. With all the other inverts you can add (these are low loads
on the tank if appropriate ones are purchased) and the corals you will
end up with a really nice tank that will almost certainly give you a
taste for setting up more.

The key is really not to rush anything and to research everything
before jumping in - impulse purchases and reefing really don't go too
well together. That being said I'll bet that there is not one
experienced reefer who can say that they've not made mistakes - that
is how we all learn.

> I'm going to buy a better test today and see if this other (more distant but
> open LFS) can get me some saltwater mixed today in order to do daily
> changes.  I have 3 6 gallon buckets to use for the transportation.  The
> other LFS is only a few blocks away.
>
> I'm still very confused about the filtration issue..

You really do need to get some books :-) You are trying to set up a
tank using the Berlin method - this is done with Live Rock/Sand and a
Protein Skimmer. A freshwater type filtration system basically only
goes as far as converting the nasties to Nitrates which can be lethal
to corals/inverts etc and not too good for some marine fish either.
When using the Berlin Method your nitrogen cycle goes one step further
and the nitrates get converted to nitrogen......BTW this is a very
simplistic explanation. You can find a better one here:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=505

It would probably also be worth registering with the site (it is free)
- not only will you get a lot of good marine info but also freshwater
stuff.

>
> The bio-cube is sold with the correct lights for keeping corals.  It comes
> with the bio-balls, sponge and the filter.  So I just fished out the
> bio-balls this morning since that's what I keep getting told to do.  But I
> should also take out the filter too?  The live rock will really keep the
> whole tank in balance once the tank has cycled?
>
> Suzi

Run the filter empty or use it to run phosphate remover and/or carbon.
Don't leave the carbon in too long as that can also become a nitrate
factory - I forgot I'd put some in a filter in the Nano and couldn't
understand why I was getting nitrate readings - I caught it before it
became a problem because of regular testing - but just to let you know
it can be easily done.

The Live Rock IS your filtration system.....if that helps.....I know
in the freshwater world we talk about tanks cycling once fish are
added - in a reef tank it is the Live Rock that cycles the tank. Think
of it like doing a fishless cycle......You buy the rock, there is some
die off of the creatures in the rock, the bacteria and other creatures
in the rock perform the tasks that your filter media does in your
freshwater tank. A reef tank is cycled with the rock rather than
fish.....once you get zero ammonia/nitrite (and preferably zero
nitrates) from your tests the tank can be classed as cycled and you
can slowly start adding livestock. Generally people will add clean up
crew before fish and corals but not always (by clean up crew I mean
snails, hermit crabs etc). Everytime you add something keep an eye on
the water quality and make sure everything is zero again before adding
the next thing - much the same way as you should do with a freshwater
tank. If, you are very lucky, and get Live Rock that is fully cured
and get little or no die off while transporting it home, then your
tank can cycle very quickly and indeed you may not get any ammonia/
nitrite readings at all.

Gill

[Randy]

On Feb 9, 9:03 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks.  That gives me plenty to ponder.  I hadn't thought about topping off
> with plain RO water.  I'm going to get a table top variety very soon.  In
> the meantime, I'll have to go back to the LFS on Monday and get buckets of
> RO with and without salt.  I'll be looking for a skimmer and hydrometer too.
> :)

Instead of a hydrometer, ask and seriously consider a refractometer.
They are simple to use (you put a drop of water on it, look through
a window). The one I ordered was 31 dollars including shipping. It
will
pay for itself in 6 months with accuracy and not having to replace it.

[Suzi McMullen]

A drop of water and look through a window. Is it electric and sort of like
testing blood sugar or something? I'll look into it for sure. I just need
to pay my mortgage and a few other things LOL! This thing started out to be
one 5 gallon freshwater tank. Now I have no idea what I've spent but it's
way too much and probably rivals my mortgage this month.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy" <onedu...@comcast.net>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[NetMax]

There are many types of refractometers (for measuring salt, sugar,
alcohol etc) some with a light and battery, some with a digital
display, but essentially they all use the effect of light reflecting
through water. The higher the concentration of what you're measuring
(ie: salt), the greater the angle of reflection, so the light moves up
a gradient scaled in the measurement units (so no batteries are
required).

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Salinity-Refractometer-4-Aquarium-Pond-Hydrometer_W0QQitemZ320214937766QQihZ011QQcategoryZ20755QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or http://tinyurl.com/ywvc2t

hth
NetMax

> pay for itself in 6 months with accuracy and not having to replace it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Randy]

On Feb 10, 6:57 am, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 7:36 am, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=flower+anemone+Salt+water&um=...
>
> > Enjoy :)
>
> Thanks :-) Never seen them in the UK

Welcome. I have never seen a live one here, I searched for it on
Google
and went to the images to find out what they were myself.

> > I have to disagree about the skimmer. You can successfully run a
> > reef, mixed reef, or a fish only SW tank without a skimmer. When you
> > do it, you have to ramp up the water changes, decrease the time
> > between
> > them and decrease the time between changing the filters. The
> > main reason people use skimmers is because they are more cost
> > effective than the water changes are.
>
> You can successfully run a marine tank without a skimmer IF you know
> what you are doing and have the experience to do so.

There is no "IF" in there. You don't have to understand the
chemistry going on to run a skimmer-less system anymore
than you have to understand the chemisty going on in a
skimmer. And that is using the term "chemistry" in a
general sense.

How many people using a skimmer can actually tell you
how it works, why it works, or even what it is actually doing
other than "cleaning the water"? Not many.

How many people understand the chemistry at work during
a cycle? You don't have to understand the chemistry at all.

> Altum, and I believe Marco, on this group have both successfully
> done so in the past but both of these people are very experienced
> fishkeepers. I would not recommend that a newbie to the hobby
> should attempt it unless they have a very clear understanding of
> the chemistry involved.

That is plain wrong. You do NOT have to "understand the chemistry"
involved at all. You need to understand the maintenance routine
associated with a particular set up. And, you can be successful
without knowing the chemistry if you understand the maintenance
routine. Too many people are successful without skimmers to make
me believe otherwise. Simpy peruse the Nano section on TRT
(www.thereeftank.com) to see how many don't have skimmers.

> I don't run skimmers because of the cost effectiveness - I run them as
> they are an integral part of using the Berlin System of filtration
> according to every book, article and experienced reef keeper I've read/
> spoken to.

That statement reads as if the only reason you use it is because of
something you read, without understanding *why* you use it. The
entire concept of a skimmer is that is a cheaper alternative to
accomplish the same goal - clean water. And, the alternatives
to a skimmer are more expensive and it comes down to an
economical decision.

> > The 12G nano tank that I is an Instant Ocean 12G and it has a
> > Bio-Wheel filtration system in it that fits inside the tank but it
> > works no differently than a FW HOB filter.None of the nano tank
> > kits I looked at had skimmers in them.
>
> They do now. When I set up my Nano 18 months ago skimmers for a tank
> that small were very difficult to come by - I did find one though and
> a great PITA it is. The industry has moved on though to meet the
> increasing demand for Nano tanks. In the UK almost all of the big
> manufacturers have now added Nano skimmers to their ranges.

BioCube - no skimmer
Eclipse - no skimmer
Aquapod - no skimmer

What nano system sells, out of the box, with an included skimmer?
All three of those I listed I looked at today. None of them have a
skimmer in it. They use a HOB type filtration system and filter pads
to remove DOC's.

Can you get Nano-skimmers? Absolutely. But, they don't come in
the "kits" that are for sale. At least not in the southeastern US.

> > So yes, you can run one without a skimmer as long as you
> > know what you have to do to not run a skimmer. But, it is more
> > cost effective to have one.
>
> Not disagreeing but would not recommend anyone new to marine attempts
> it now that the skimmers are readily available. I wonder how many
> failures there are compared to successes in attempting it.

I wouldn't recommend it either. But, to simply say "you can't do it
without a skimmer" is just plain wrong.

> > Most "Master Kits" sold in the USA are typically API brand kits. I
> > paid
> > about 30 dollars for mine.
>
> Test kits are a small price to pay IMO for protecting the well being
> of your livestock/pets - especially when you consider the cost of
> replacing everything if you get a wipeout that could have been
> detected if you were running tests....

Absolutely :)

> > With everything she has in it, yes, daily testing but if the tank goes
> > through a true cycle (and not a mini-cycle) then most, if not all, if
> > the
> > livestock she has isn't going to survive it.
>
> I know, but I wasn't going to put it quite that bluntly until Suzi
> gave us some test results.....occassionally (very occassionally) I've
> heard of people getting away with it. I hope that Suzi will be one of
> them. Daily testing will give her the opportunity to reacte and
> correct the situation which will lessen the risk to the livestock - at
> least it will give her a chance to get them out the tank and back to
> the LFS until the tank has cycled.

Agreed. It is a flaw I have where I am brutally honest sometimes.
Sometimes, *too* honest and blunt about things.

> > Oops :( Sorry you learned that the hard way. And yes, you are
> > correct that the tank should be topped of at least every other
> > day but preferably daily to prevent the salinity swings. What
> > also happens with salinity swings are PH swings and the PH
> > swings are just as deadly (if not more so) than the salinity
> > swings are.
>
> I was on holiday and hadn't left strict instructions to the fish
> sitters on top offs. It was my Nano tank which of course being a
> smaller volume of water deteriated quicker than a larger tank
> would.......the fish were OK but I lost some corals and inverts
> (shrimps, urchins) - others I managed to move over successfully to the
> larger tank while I corrected the water in the Nano. Suprisingly some
> xenia and stars emerged again once the water was good....

Glad the xenia, stars and fish survived it. Sorry to here about the
ones
that didn't.

> > > Most reefers will recommend keeping your Sg at 1.026.....I tend to
> > > keep mine at 1.025 at the moment as I don't have a ready available
> > > supply of RO water (by this I mean I have to go to the LFS to buy it
> > > rather than having my own RO unit). This is because I know if the top
> > > up is delayed by a day it is unlikely that my Sg will rise to
> > > hazardous levels.
>
> > Do you have a refractometer or a hydrometer? If a hydro, what brand?
> > The Instant Ocean brand hydrometers are off by as much as .006
> > even when brand new :( I learned that one last night but fortunately
> > it wasn't disastrous.
>
> I'm currently using a Red Sea Hydrometer which is driving me
> nuts.....a refractometer is on its way next week now I've had my tax
> rebate......the problem with hydrometers is not only do they stick and
> need a great deal of rinsing to get them to work but the results can
> also differ depending on the temperature of the water. There are ways
> of working out the exact Sg based on the temperature but these are
> quite complicated - for a beginner who cannot splash out on a
> refractometer right away they give a reasonable guide - stability
> really being the key initially rather than total accuracy of readings.

Yes, they do give a guess at it which is better than nothing. And, the
accuracy of Hydrometers ranges from brand to brand. IO (Instant Ocean)
brands being the worst.

Also, if you drop a hydrometer it will screw up the readings. If using
a
Hydrometer, you can always take it to an LFS to see how far off it is
from a refractometer reading. Knowing how far off it is, then you can
know
what to actually read on the scale to have it where you want it.

Some hydrometers (again, most notably IO brand) will become
more unreliable just with age. Not sure why though. I think it has
to do with how it reads the reading. And, because they are calibrated
against NaCl water instead of true SW.

> > No. Please don't use a razor blade. Most are covered with a very
> > thin coat(either oil or silicon) to keep them from sticking to the
> > paper wrapper they come in or either oil to keep the bulk packs
> > from sticking together.
> > Invest in an algea scraper. One of the magnetic ones.
>
> Ah, here I think something got lost in the translation between UK and
> US American. I'm using the term "razor blade" generically as it would
> be understood in the UK. My magnetic algae scraper has "razor blades"
> - others I know of use the DIY tool which is basically a "razor blade"
> mounted with a handle.....usually used for scraping off paint or
> cleaning ceramic hobs etc.

Whew! I was having visions of razor blades like the ones you would use
to shave with or in a box-cutter.

Another DIY solution I have seen is for curved tanks is to take an old
credit card, boil it until it becomes soft, bend it to the shape of
the tank,
dip it in cold water to "set" the plastic.

> > Most chromis, and especially Blue Damsels, are extremely agressive
> > after having been in the tank long enough to claim a spot in the tank.
> > And yes, the YMMV is very applicable with them.
>
> My understanding is that the Blue/Green chromis are the best of the
> lot.....I don't think I would consider any of the other damsels in my
> tank - however I can imagine that keeping some in a species tank would
> be quite spectacular if kept in large enough numbers to stop them
> killing one another....

I only know of one person that has successfully kept a school of green
chromis. Most of the people I have talked to have had bad results with
trying to keep more than one. They will pick on the smallest fish in
the
school until they kill it and then repeat the process until there is
only
one left. It made me scratch my head and truly wonder how they breed
if they just want to kill each other. I have some more reading to do
about them (I like Blue Damsels) but the large numbers are just more
picking on the smallest and killing it quicker. I think the secret to
them
is going to be to keep a tank large enough to allow them to be able
to
evade and hide from one another to keep them from killing each other.

> > Note about flow rate in a tank. There are two distinct flowrates in a
> > tank (whether it is SW or FW):
>
> I disagree.....flow rate is flow rate......the actual rate of flow
> appropriate will depend on the application....therefore the pump needs
> to be suited to the job in hand...

No, they are two distinct things. And, it is even true in a FW tank.

The difference is in how fast the water is moving through the
filtration
system itself. If the water is moving too fast, then the bacteria
doesn't
have time to do it's job before the water moves on. You end up just
circulating cruddy water and not filtering it. Slow the water down and
use other means (powerheads, CLS, etc..) to increase the flowrate in
the tank itself, and your filtration system will have time to do it's
job.

> > > >       That's it so far.  Of course both tanks are heated and so far they
> > > > seem to be staying stable at 78 degrees.  Being home all day I'll be able to
> > > > see if anything changes.  I plan to get back up heaters to have just in case
> > > > these go out.  I have an extra filter that I was planning to use either for
> > > > back up or for a future tank.  I could put that on the tank with the
> > > > anemones in it.  Would more than one filter be a problem or a help?
>
> > > Any biological filtration is a hindrance IMO.....
>
> > You think biological filtration in a Reef Tank is a hindrance?
> > Live Rock is biological filtration.
> > Wet/Dry systems are biological filtration.
> > Sumps/Refugiums are biological filtration.
> > Bacterialogical filtration is biological filtration.
>
> > You can run a Reef Tank without mechanical or chemical filtration.
> > You will *not* run a Reef Tank without biological filtration.
>
> > Biological filtration is your best friend in a Reef Tank.
>
> Used the wrong terminology, although in the context used I think it
> pretty obvious what I meant, especially when biological filtration as
> understood in the freshwater world is using filters, cannisters,
> sponges, floss, bio-balls etc which is something that you would not
> want to use in a reef tank.

Nothing wrong with using filters, cannisters, sponges, floss and bio
balls in a reef tank. The only one in that list that is detrimental is
bio balls but that is only if you have LR in the tank. Use fake rocks
and you can use bio balls with it. If you use LR and Bio-balls
together
then they will compete with one another for nutrients and be counter
productive.

> "Biological" filtration in a reef tank with Live Rock (and sand) is
> done by the bacteria and creatures within it. Clean up crew also play
> a major part in maintaining the balance and eco-system.......The
> process is then taken one step further in the nitrogen cycle by
> Nitrogen eventually being released whereas in a FW tank this remains
> in the water as Nitrates. You are trying to create a natural balance
> without the mechanical intervention that is used in the freshwater
> environment....

Only if you depend on mechanical filtration in a freshwater tank.
The only filtration in my 90 gallon tank, at the moment, is 100%
biological filtration. No chemical and no mechanical filtration.

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 10, 7:04 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ok, here's another dumb question.  If you don't have live rock, or inverts
> in your tank, what are you using to cycle the tank?

You can use bottled ammonia as long as you make sure it is clean
ammonia. No perfume additives. You can also use dead fish. All you
need is something to produce ammonia to start the Nitrogen cycle.
Even dead plants will start one.

> If you have fish in there to cycle it, couldn't I set up a temporary tank to
> put the live rock in and cure it the way I keep reading about?  I'm
> specifically talking about 30 gallon bucket, salt water mix, heater, power
> heads to move the water and 50 percent water changes every few days.  And
> daily testing of course.

If you can get the anemones off of the rock. But, if your rocks came
from
an established tank at the LFS, they are already cured. Now cooking
rocks
is something entirely different. And no, cooking rock isn't putting it
in the
oven and turning it on :)

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 10, 7:15 am, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 6:46 am, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Calcium
> > Copper (If you use tapwater).
>
> Calcium when she starts keeping corals - although it does not hurt
> before but hopefully the saltwater mix she is getting from her LFS
> should not have overly high calcium levels. If you want to be pedantic
> you really should add Magnesium rather than copper......Magnesium
> levels play a greater role in the stability of the reef.....

Calcium is a PH buffer and knowing how much Ca is in the water will
help you avoid PH swings. And, saltwater salt mix doesn't have the
levels
of Ca needed to support the buffering ability. Nor is it limited to
the
keeping of corals.

I wasn't being pedantic. I was adding to your list with two that I
thought
should be an addition. The Copper was stipulated as being necessary
only if you used tapwater and water conditioner. I am actually running
an experiment right now to see how well a skimmer will handle the
DOC's
from treated tapwater.

> Noone, setting up a reef tank should even consider using tap water -
> not just because of the copper but also because of all the other
> metals and impurities that will be deadly to the reef......If you were
> using tapwater then IMO you would want to test for more than just
> copper and in reality by the time you've paid out for all those test
> kits it would be more cost effective to have bought your own RO unit

Yes, indeed. And good advice.

> > My local tapwater actually contains copper and copper
> > is a reef killer :(
>
> Almost all domestic pipework in the UK is copper (and I would guess it
> is the same all over) - another reason not to even consider using
> tapwater in a reef tank

Most waterpipes in US homes is copper. You see a lot of PVC being
used in the south. Most municipal water supplies here are slowly
being converted to PVC mains because of cost, upkeep and maintenance.

> > > You will also need a hydrometer or refractometer to measure the
> > > salinity.
>
> > I ordered a refractometer tonight off Ebay, cost me 31 dollars
> > including shipping. With them that cheap, and the problems
> > associated with hydrometers (Especially Instant Ocean brand
> > hydrometers), the refractometer is the only way to go for me.
>
> I am inclined to agree with you here. My hydrometer drives me nuts and
> then of course there is the added complication of making allowances
> for water temperature.

:)

> > > 1. Research, research, research. Ask questions and read books. A
> > > couple of good ones are:-
>
> > > Natural Reef Aquariums by John Tullock
> > > The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner
>
> > > Get as much advice as you can. Don't just rely on the guy selling you
> > > the stuff. A lot of LFS's can be very good but there are also those
> > > just wanting your money
>
> >http://www.thereeftank.com/
>
> > That is my favorite SW hangout. A lot of people there that have a
> > lot more experience with SW than I could ever dream of having.
> > And, if they can handle some of the dumb questions I have asked
> > on there, they can handle anything :)
>
> Agreed on using the more specialist reef forums. I use a UK based one.
> They also have the benefit of being able to get bargains from other
> members in terms of 2nd hand kit, frags, live rock etc etc

TRT also has a FW section. Not very bust, most of the site is geared
towards SW discussions. And it is divided up so that different parts
of the hobby can be discussed seperately. I like it. TRT has sponsors
and clubs that do the discounts for members and the club meetings
that I have been too so far have turned into impromptu frag swaps.

> > > 2. Patience. Setting up a successful reef tank takes time to get it
> > > right. Rushing it will generally mean that you will hit problems. You
> > > might be able to resolve them or it might end it tears. Far better to
> > > minimise the problems in the first place.
>
> > The #1 saying I see/hear about Reef Tanks:
>
> > Nothing comes fast on a Reef except failure.
>
> LOL - I've got one for you in return
>
> The only stupid thing about a stupid question is not asking it.....

"The only dumb/stupid question is the one you didn't ask".

Yes, I like it. I have seen it in several forms and it is always true.
You won't know if you don't ask :)

> > Agreed. If the LFS won't keep it (or better refund it), then it is
> > time
> > to find a new LFS. The one I use most here where I live has had
> > a live rock for me for almost a month now waiting on me to get
> > a SW tank established enough to put the rock in it without killing
> > the inverts on it.
>
> OK - agreed that if an LFS won't keep fish, wrongly sold IMO, until
> the tank is ready it's time to find a new LFS - mine will keep
> livestock until a tank is ready - indeed one place I go has been
> holding some cleaner shrimps for me since November - the reason I
> haven't got them yet is his place is a bit out of the way and
> additionally I know it won't just be the shrimps I come home with so
> need to save some pennies before going there.

I have a rock at my LFS that he has been keeping for almost a month
now waiting on my 12G to get ready for it. It has sponges,
featherdusters
and some other "critters" on it. I fell for the "I want it NOW"
mentality.
I talked to him about this thread today and asked him what he thought
I would do if I asked him to keep something I bought from him until
I was ready. We both agreed that we weren't sure what I would do, but
we were both certain that one of the things I would do is spend my
pennies somewhere else.

> Curious as to why the LFS is holding Live Rock for you unless he is
> curing it for you.....what stage is your tank at? Once the water is
> in, the parameters are correct and you are sure the equipment is
> working then you should be able to add to the Live Rock and start the
> cycle.....unless of course you are adding more in which case having
> the LFS holding onto additional rock makes some sort of sense.

I bought it without a SW tank setup for it. I saw it and wanted the
critters on it. But, I didn't want someone else to buy it before I was
ready. So, I bought it with the condition being that he kept it until
I was ready for it. I did get a killer offer on it today though. What
I
get under the offer:

1 frag of each critter on the rock (4 total).
1 frag from another rock in the LFS.
My money back.

So basically, I am getting 5 free frags for buying a LR without
a SW tank setup at all. Made me want to buy every rock in
his store :)

The main reason I didn't want to cycle the tank with it though
was I am not totally sure (he isn't either) if the critters on it
would survive the cycle process or not.

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 10, 7:35 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Would the 14 gallon bio cube be big enough to cycle all the rock?  I could
> move the fish over to the 10 gallon tank which does have a filter on it
> while I'm trying to sort through all of this.  I could then put all the rock
> into the bio-cube while waiting for both tanks to get the right readings.

You would be in a better position to know where the 14G will
physically
hold the rocks or not. Different rocks have different density so that
a
pound of Florida Live Rock isn't the same physical size as a pound of
Fiji Live Rock.

As for cycling, you are going to have to cycle both tanks. Whether
you put rocks in one and fish in the other or mix them. Either way,
it is going to have to be cycled. But, you don't cycle the rock
itself,
you are cycling the tank to get the Nitrogen cycle established.

> I'm going to buy a better test today and see if this other (more distant but
> open LFS) can get me some saltwater mixed today in order to do daily
> changes.  I have 3 6 gallon buckets to use for the transportation.  The
> other LFS is only a few blocks away.

Try to get some substrate (gravel, sand, crushed coral) out of one of
the display tanks in the LFS where you shop. It will already have
some of the bacteria on it that will help speed up your cycling
process.

And, take a water sample to the LFS with you. Simply hand them
the water and ask them to test it and tell you what you need to do
to get it where you need it to be.

> I'm still very confused about the filtration issue..
>
> The bio-cube is sold with the correct lights for keeping corals.  It comes
> with the bio-balls, sponge and the filter.  So I just fished out the
> bio-balls this morning since that's what I keep getting told to do.  But I
> should also take out the filter too?  The live rock will really keep the
> whole tank in balance once the tank has cycled?

No, don't take the filter out. And yes, the LR will keep the tank
filtered
after it is cycled.

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 10, 9:03 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Salinity-Refractometer-4-Aquarium-Pond-Hydrom...
>
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/ywvc2t

That is the exact auction where I bought mine :) Should be here this
week.
Several people around where I live have bought that one and said it
was
pretty good without any problems with it.

[Randy]

And that, above, is why I still hate Google Groups.

Randy

[Gill Passman]

Well, you can add another to your list. I've had my 5 green chromis for at
least 9 months. They did kill one of their number (originally I had six) but
that was a long time ago. They usually school together.....The one that died
was not the smallest fish but was pretty much in the middle - interestingly
enough he was never really accepted into the school and spent his short life
very much as a loner, only joining the school at feed time. I obviously
don't know for sure that it was the other chromis that finished him off but
at the time there were very few other fish in the tank as possible
candidates. Polished off, he definitely was though - his poor body was
battered and bruised.....Now, I've written this, of course, "sod's law" will
dictate that all 5 of them will turn on one another in one great chromis
brawl....

I know/have heard of a lot of people who have schools of chromis but equally
I have heard of a lot of people who have the experiences that you describe
and have ended up with just one left. It would be a very interesting
research project to find out why this happens as they are most certainly a
schooling fish. My best guess is that it is because of the confines of an
aquarium. The same problems with aggression can apply to other species as
well - very few people can successfully keep tangs together.....although I
have a regal and a yellow in my tank - it was hairy to start with but they
have settled for now at least....I think Greg on this group has three yellow
tangs in his tank together. Other people, with large tanks can keep even
more together and mixed tang species. But in the majority of cases I've
heard about trying this will result in the death of one of the fish.

With Mbunas there is a general guideline to overstock to dissipate
aggression - the theory being there that violent behaviour is shared amongst
the lower fish in the hierarchy. Other people will buy 5 of a certain
species of fish - the theory here being that the bullying will be spread out
- if only 3 are purchased there is a higher chance of one of them being
picked on by the other two.....these are all theories of course and not
written in stone but practices carried out by a lot of fish keepers.

The key I guess is to research your fish before adding them into a tank
whatever type of fish they are (fresh or saltwater). And not only consider
their interaction with their own species but also how they will relate to
the tankmates that we force them to share a home with...

Gill

-----Original Message-----
From: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: 11 February 2008 02:29
To: The Freshwater Aquarium
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

I only know of one person that has successfully kept a school of green
chromis. Most of the people I have talked to have had bad results with
trying to keep more than one. They will pick on the smallest fish in
the
school until they kill it and then repeat the process until there is
only
one left. It made me scratch my head and truly wonder how they breed
if they just want to kill each other. I have some more reading to do
about them (I like Blue Damsels) but the large numbers are just more
picking on the smallest and killing it quicker. I think the secret to
them
is going to be to keep a tank large enough to allow them to be able
to
evade and hide from one another to keep them from killing each other.

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1270 - Release Date: 10/02/2008
12:21

[Mister Gardener]

Randy wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:04 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
  

Ok, here's another dumb question.  If you don't have live rock, or inverts
in your tank, what are you using to cycle the tank?
    

You can use bottled ammonia as long as you make sure it is clean
ammonia. 

Pee works very well too. Did that with the last tank I cycled. I presently have so many tanks and running sponge filters that I don't think I'll ever have to cycle from the beginning again. But if I do, I'll rely on my totally organic totally free pee.

MG

[NetMax]

Sorry to disappoint you, but by the definition of 'organic', I don't
think your pee would qualify. While there's many country and
organization-specific variations in the definition and categories, I
think the gist of it would be that you'd have to be on a 100%
certified organic diet for about a year before you could claim your
pee was organic (just in case you're thinking of adding this as a new
exclusive product available from Angelfish Gardens ;~)

NetMax

On Feb 11, 6:07 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

[Mister Gardener]

NetMax wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, but by the definition of 'organic', I don't
think your pee would qualify. 

Sigh. There goes the Diet Pepsi Max.

MG

[Altum]

You don't need a refractometer for a reef. They're nice for sure, but
a simple hydrometer will do the trick. I'm a little confused as to
why you're doing salt if money is an issue. Watersprite and guppies
are SO much cheaper.

--Altum

[Altum]

On Feb 10, 6:50 pm, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 7:15 am, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 6:46 am, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Calcium
> > > Copper (If you use tapwater).
>
> > Calcium when she starts keeping corals - although it does not hurt
> > before but hopefully the saltwater mix she is getting from her LFS
> > should not have overly high calcium levels. If you want to be pedantic
> > you really should add Magnesium rather than copper......Magnesium
> > levels play a greater role in the stability of the reef.....
>
> Calcium is a PH buffer and knowing how much Ca is in the water will
> help you avoid PH swings. And, saltwater salt mix doesn't have the
> levels
> of Ca needed to support the buffering ability. Nor is it limited to
> the
> keeping of corals.

No, calcium is NOT a pH buffer. It is a salt. Reef tanks are
carbonate-buffered, and the ALKALINITY of the water helps prevent pH
swings. High calcium is important for hard corals and coralline
algae.

--Altum

[Suzi McMullen]

Money isn't an issue. But in the last couple of weeks I've bought 3 tanks,
3 filters, 3 heaters, at least 150 dollars worth of live rock, tons of tests
(wasted money on the strip kind), better tests, plants for the fresh water,
clear marbles for the fresh water tanks, fish, food, a good book about salt
water, fish and corals, another book about SW fish, a thermometer,
saltwater, and many little incidentals. I haven't added up the cost. But
it's a huge bundle. So while I'm far from poor, I'll be poor for the next
few weeks.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Altum" <Pt.a...@gmail.com>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:09 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

>

[denizen]

On Feb 11, 2:31 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Money isn't an issue.  But in the last couple of weeks I've bought 3 tanks,
> 3 filters, 3 heaters, at least 150 dollars worth of live rock, tons of tests
> (wasted money on the strip kind), better tests, plants for the fresh water,
> clear marbles for the fresh water tanks, fish, food, a good book about salt
> water, fish and corals, another book about SW fish, a thermometer,
> saltwater, and many little incidentals.  I haven't added up the cost.  But
> it's a huge bundle.  So while I'm far from poor, I'll be poor for the next
> few weeks.
>

My FW setup cost about $800 Canadian, including home-made stand,
canopy and lighting, books, a load of plants etc. Got the substrate
for free in a gravel pit and also collected slate from some outcrops I
knew about. So even fresh water aquaria aren't cheap; however the main
ongoing cost has been electricity for the lights.
d.

[Suzi McMullen]

Well my electricity bill is already quite high. I have about 30-40 lights
set up in the basement ranging from flourescents to MH including some HPS.
I have too many pumps to count in my grow room. I also run a heater in
there in the winter and air conditioner in the summer and fans and air
purification system all year long.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "denizen" <deni...@yahoo.ca>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Altum]

Your gardening setup sounds really nice. Do you get homegrown veggies
all winter?

--Altum

[Suzi McMullen]

We are eating tomatoes, not as many as I thought I would get but they taste
to die for. We are eating cucumbers. I don't really eat cucumbers much buy
my family has been in heaven and assure me they are much better than the
store. We have been eating lettuce and as with the tomatoes it doesn't grow
as fast as I'd like to see it. We cook with fresh herbs and can barely keep
up with the rate of growth. I have banana plants that should give us
bananas next November. I have an orange tree and I'm not holding my breath
as to when we will see actual fruit. We are growing asparagus and I've
managed to cut about 6 months so far off their maturation and I think I'll
be able to fake them out and cut another 6 months off of the time before we
can eat them soon. Normally it takes 3 years from seed or 2 years from
buying 1 year old plants. I have calculated I can get mature spears in
about 15-18 months. We don't have a lot because it was an experiment. But
now that I know how to fake them into thinking they have gone through the
winter when they haven't, I just planted 70 new seeds today and will
continue to plant them successively and try to find space for them. Someday
I vision a basement full of bananas, asparagus, veggies of all types etc.

I'm also growing flowers for my husband that normally take 2 seasons to
bloom. We have already gotten blooms on some of those that haven't even
gone through any sort of winter or dormancy and should not have bloomed yet.
I have a lot of experiments going on. I grow broccoli plants just for the
leaves. They take forever to actually head so instead of waiting for that I
harvest the leaves for my bunny and he in turn gives me bunny droppings to
use in my all natural compost tea formula. Let's see... I experimented with
spinach and decided that I don't have nearly enough space for that. We have
peppers planted and just starting to get peppers.

I started the entire project last April and added systems one at a time. We
ate a lot of broccoli leaves last year just like Collard greens because I
got tired of watiting for heads. It's not an efficient use of the grow room
space. I've not had the impressive yields I might have had if I used
commercial nutrients.. I've been experimenting at making my own because the
commercial stuff is OUTRAGEOUSLY priced. Someday I'll get it all right. In
the meantime it's a great way to jumpstart the outdoor season.

My grow room is about 12 or 13 feet wide by 22 feet long. I'm always
fighting space constraints. I forgot, I'm also experimenting with growing
sweet potatoes in hydroponic units which is not being done by anyone. I
don't know if it will work though.

Suzi

[NetMax]

Very cool. Speaking of nutrient units... freshwater aquariums! Seems
like a natural fit to a hydroponic system ;~)

NetMax

[Randy]

On Feb 11, 2:09 pm, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You don't need a refractometer for a reef.  

No, you don't have to have one. But, it makes life a whole
lot simpler in the end.

> They're nice for sure, but a simple hydrometer will do the trick.  

As long as you keep it calibrated so that it doesn't get out of whack.
And so you know how far off it is. And, that you get a good quality
one. But then, you have spent enough on a good hydrometer that
a refractometer isn't that much more expensive and a lot more
accurate.

I checked a hydrometer today and it was 15 dollars. The refractometer
I ordered cost me 31 dollars, shipped to my door. How can you justify
a hydrometer over a refractometer when the cost is as low as they
are now?

Randy

[Randy]

On Feb 11, 2:14 pm, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, calcium is NOT a pH buffer. It is a salt.

Ca2 is *not* a salt.

It can become part of a salt when mixed with other elements
but it is not a salt. As for a pH buffer, I won't have that
argument.

[Gayle]

Suzi, would you send me a salad please??   -------Original Message-------

From: NetMax Date: 2/11/2008 6:34:37 PM To: The Freshwater Aquarium Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

-- No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1271 - Release Date: 2/11/2008 8:16 AM   .

[Suzi McMullen]

Absolutely. I have 3 Aerogardens in the room my freshwater tank is in.
I've already started putting water in there from the tank. We'll see how it
goes. I have peppers, petunias, asparagus and snowpeas in the units.

I have 6 of the aerogardens throughout the house and growroom. I love them!

Suzi
----- Original Message -----
From: "NetMax" <comput...@hotmail.com>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Gayle]

What is an aerogarden??   -------Original Message-------

[Suzi McMullen]

www.aerogarden.com

 

they are the coolest things ever and I am investing into the company as much as I can, both from the consumer end and the stockholder end.

[Gayle]

Thanks!!

[NetMax]

If Altum told me my left hand had 6 fingers, I'd probably look down
and count before disagreeing ;~)

On the other hand, when I win an argument with Altum, I actually have
something to write on my calender : )

Dot yer i's & cross yer t's, I'm putting on my asbestos flak jacket
just to be on the safe side ;~)

NetMax (jus k/d'g)

[NetMax]

My limited experience with a saltwater hydrometer was not very
satisfactory, but perhaps it was a cheap one. My battery-acid
hydrometer works well, for battery acid ;~)

I do use a digital refractometer regularly, and it's a very nice
measurement unit. I haven't any experience with the unpowered
refractometer as was shown in the link, but they've been around a long
time as a standard. Maybe Randy can post a review after he's had a
chance to get some experience with his.

I have a test engineering background, so of course I'll pick the
better (and more expensive) tester, so take my comments with a grain
of salt (and not a splash of battery acid ;~)

NetMax

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

That's awesome suzi! Sounds like paradise in your basement! Good luck
all and later!

[Altum]

*chuckle* I wouldn't recommend it, although seeing you attempt to
solve Henderson-Hasselbach with Ca++ as one of the ions would be
highly amusing.

--Altum

[Mister Gardener]

Suzi McMullen wrote:

www.aerogarden.com

 

Hmm. A bit pricey for my checkbook. I think I'll keep my greens and petunias under shoplights.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

NetMax wrote:

If Altum told me my left hand had 6 fingers, I'd probably look down
and count before disagreeing ;~)

I would double check my figures with a calculator just to be sure.

MG

[NetMax]

OK Altum, I've been using the Coralife Deep Six hydrometer for a few
weeks now, and I have to revise my opinion. It's much easier to use
than the hydrometers of old. I can't imagine a refractometer being
much easier to use.

NetMax

On Feb 11, 9:32 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My limited experience with a saltwater hydrometer was not very
> satisfactory, but perhaps it was a cheap one.  My battery-acid
> hydrometer works well, for battery acid ;~)
>

> I do use a digitalrefractometerregularly, and it's a very nice
> measurement unit.  I haven't any experience with the unpoweredrefractometeras was shown in the link, but they've been around a long

> time as a standard.  Maybe Randy can post a review after he's had a
> chance to get some experience with his.
>
> I have a test engineering background, so of course I'll pick the
> better (and more expensive) tester, so take my comments with a grain
> of salt (and not a splash of battery acid ;~)
>
> NetMax
>
> On Feb 11, 8:09 pm, Randy <onedummh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 2:09 pm, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > > You don't need arefractometerfor a reef.  

>
> > No, you don't have to have one. But, it makes life a whole
> > lot simpler in the end.
>
> > > They're nice for sure, but a simple hydrometer will do the trick.  
>
> > As long as you keep it calibrated so that it doesn't get out of whack.
> > And so you know how far off it is. And, that you get a good quality
> > one. But then, you have spent enough on a good hydrometer that

> > arefractometerisn't that much more expensive and a lot more

> > accurate.
>
> > I checked a hydrometer today and it was 15 dollars. Therefractometer
> > I ordered cost me 31 dollars, shipped to my door. How can you justify

> > a hydrometer over arefractometerwhen the cost is as low as they
> > are now?
>
> > Randy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Altum]

On Mar 4, 12:17 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> OK Altum, I've been using the Coralife Deep Six hydrometer for a few
> weeks now, and I have to revise my opinion. It's much easier to use
> than the hydrometers of old. I can't imagine a refractometer being
> much easier to use.

Glad it's working out for you!

--Altum

[Greg Wade]

A refractometer takes into account the water temp. Your hydrometer doesn't. Once your refractometer is calibrated, you rarely have to adjust it. Your hydrometer ... not so much. As for ease of use ... a drop of water on the glass and look through the eyelet vs. dip and read and try to adjust for temp.

The main reason people use a hydrometer is the $10 cost vs. the $40 - $100 (or more) for the refractometer.

Aren't you glad you asked?

GW

[Suzi McMullen]

My hydrometer does take temperature into consideration.  I have a small window of green at the right temp for reading the salinity results.  It's floating and glass and so long as the thermometer reads the right temperature, then there is also only a small window of acceptable salinity range.  Maybe it's not accurate to the last inth.  But I'll bet it serves me well for a long time.  I've been reading reef central the last few weeks and of course here too.  I have had it up to my eyeballs with the advice I see given to newbies.  I think I'm just about done with EVERYONE.  My fish are fine, I haven't killed them all like was so direly predicted and I feel I've worked much harder than I needed to.  Last night I saw someone else begin the treatment process for ich and all the stuff those people on reef central were putting him through.  UGH!

 

I think I'm about ready to just go back to my LFS.  He said it doesn't have to be the rocket science people try and make it.  I think I believe him.

 

Suzi

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg Wade

To: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:03 PM

Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[NetMax]

LOL on information overload *oops, said in the nicest way*. You
tackled a couple of ambitious projects, so you would have been
inundated with a *lot* of information. As you said in an earlier
post, you were going to listen to all the advice and make your
decisions as you go along, for what best fits your application.
That's the best anyone can do, and if the fish are alright, then your
picking, and the advice you're picking from, are working for you.
That's great to hear, especially with all the efforts that went into
helping you out.

Without actually being there looking at the setup, testing the water
and watching what you're doing, complete advice will always have to
include unknowns, and because of it, will appear more complicated than
neccesary (and the less research that was done, the worse this is).
I've often wished I could just turn off the computer and go over to
the person's house - saves everyone a lot of time & trouble - typing,
guessing, re-reading old posts to figure out some history and pieceing
all the events together. It's not rocket science, maybe more like a
recipe, but it can sure take a lot of time & patience to help people
find *their* recipe, the one that works with their setup. Being the
recipient of the advice can be as frustrating, especially for unusual
setups or circumstances.

Suzi, I'm not convinced that you're out of the woods yet, but I think
you're getting a better feel for the sequence and timing of events,
and their uniqueness with particular setups. Don't let your guard
down until absolutely certain that the tanks have stabilized and your
procedures have settled into a routine.

NetMax

On Mar 5, 4:59 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> My hydrometer does take temperature into consideration.  I have a small window of green at the right temp for reading the salinity results.  It's floating and glass and so long as the thermometer reads the right temperature, then there is also only a small window of acceptable salinity range.  Maybe it's not accurate to the last inth.  But I'll bet it serves me well for a long time.  I've been reading reef central the last few weeks and of course here too.  I have had it up to my eyeballs with the advice I see given to newbies.  I think I'm just about done with EVERYONE.  My fish are fine, I haven't killed them all like was so direly predicted and I feel I've worked much harder than I needed to.  Last night I saw someone else begin the treatment process for ich and all the stuff those people on reef central were putting him through.  UGH!
>
> I think I'm about ready to just go back to my LFS.  He said it doesn't have to be the rocket science people try and make it.  I think I believe him.
>
> Suzi
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Greg Wade
>   To: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:03 PM
>   Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...
>
>   A refractometer takes into account the water temp. Your hydrometer doesn't. Once your refractometer is calibrated, you rarely have to adjust it. Your hydrometer ... not so much. As for ease of use ... a drop of water on the glass and look through the eyelet vs. dip and read and try to adjust for temp.
>
>   The main reason people use a hydrometer is the $10 cost vs. the $40 - $100 (or more) for the refractometer.
>
>   Aren't you glad you asked?
>
>   GW
>

>     > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Altum]

Glad to hear your fish are doing well. People probably made dire
predictions because crypto is such an obnoxious disease.

If you have an LFS that's good and you like their advice, you're very,
very lucky. A lot of people on boards have only a local PetCo and
can't get any advice at all.

As for fishkeeping being hard, a lot of us really like to learn the
science behind the hobby. I don't think it's particularly
complicated, but I have a lot of scientific training. I guess it
would be hard or at least tedious if you're not fond of science.
There are some people who don't worry learning how tanks work and do
fine...for a while. The problem is that when a tank goes downhill,
without the science it's very difficult to understand what happened
and how to fix it.

--Altum

On Mar 5, 1:59 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> My hydrometer does take temperature into consideration. I have a small window of green at the right temp for reading the salinity results. It's floating and glass and so long as the thermometer reads the right temperature, then there is also only a small window of acceptable salinity range. Maybe it's not accurate to the last inth. But I'll bet it serves me well for a long time. I've been reading reef central the last few weeks and of course here too. I have had it up to my eyeballs with the advice I see given to newbies. I think I'm just about done with EVERYONE. My fish are fine, I haven't killed them all like was so direly predicted and I feel I've worked much harder than I needed to. Last night I saw someone else begin the treatment process for ich and all the stuff those people on reef central were putting him through. UGH!
>
> I think I'm about ready to just go back to my LFS. He said it doesn't have to be the rocket science people try and make it. I think I believe him.
>
> Suzi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Greg Wade
> To: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:03 PM
> Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...
>
> A refractometer takes into account the water temp. Your hydrometer doesn't. Once your refractometer is calibrated, you rarely have to adjust it. Your hydrometer ... not so much. As for ease of use ... a drop of water on the glass and look through the eyelet vs. dip and read and try to adjust for temp.
>
> The main reason people use a hydrometer is the $10 cost vs. the $40 - $100 (or more) for the refractometer.
>
> Aren't you glad you asked?
>
> GW
>

[Eduardo Starling]

On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Altum <Pt.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]

>
> As for fishkeeping being hard, a lot of us really like to learn the
> science behind the hobby. I don't think it's particularly
> complicated, but I have a lot of scientific training. I guess it
> would be hard or at least tedious if you're not fond of science.
> There are some people who don't worry learning how tanks work and do
> fine...for a while. The problem is that when a tank goes downhill,
> without the science it's very difficult to understand what happened
> and how to fix it.

Precisely. That's what happened with me. I always loved the 'biology' part of
the hobby, but never gave much attention to the 'chemical' part. When I came
back to the hobby (about 7 years ago), I had to learn a lot of things from
scratch: feeding, filtering, breeding, everything; because when I abandoned
the hobby everyone had UGF on their tanks, and when I came back UGF
seemed to be the hell on Earth on brazilian forums. Even not liking
chemistry very much, I've been reading and learning, for the love of the hobby

Eduardo

[Suzi McMullen]

NO actually people made these dire predictions because I bought the fish too
soon. And yes, I do understand now that it would have been so much better
to wait. BUT, I had people tell me that ALL my fish would die and not
survive the cycle. The cycling has not been any of the cause of the fish
deaths I've had so far. The ich came later and by what all the many crazy
differing opinions seem to indicate, no one truly understands the
disease/parasite/virus as much as anyone would like. If I had known in the
beginning what I know now, I would have started with like one fish at a time
and just waited to see how they did. I would have bought the hospital tank
and quarantined them before putting them in the display tank. But, the fact
that I didn't hasn't been as big of a deal as I thought it would be.

I do feel bad for the fish that have been lost. I especially feel bad for
the tetras I accidentally killed. I had no idea they were so easily lost
while re-arranging inside the tank.

At least, my water if finally in good shape. I'm still struggling with the
hospital tank. But now that my RO/DI system is in place I'll get that tank
in line.

Suzi
----- Original Message -----

From: "Altum" <Pt.a...@gmail.com>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>

[denizen]

On Mar 5, 1:23 pm, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> NO actually people made these dire predictions because I bought the fish too
> soon. And yes, I do understand now that it would have been so much better
> to wait. BUT, I had people tell me that ALL my fish would die and not
> survive the cycle. The cycling has not been any of the cause of the fish

> deaths I've had so far. The ich came later ...

I'm very glad that your aquariums are doing better, congratulations.

However the cycling was likely the root cause of any problems.
Physical stress from cycling or other bad water quality issues weakens
fish, and then they may get visible parasites etc. That's from FW
experience only. Believe my Baensch Aquarium Atlas says something
like "filter care = water quality = healthy fish...". Bottom line is,
that FW aquarium keeping is mostly about maintaining stable, healthy
water conditions. Then comes food, compatible tank mates etc.
d.

[Altum]

On Mar 5, 10:23 am, "Suzi McMullen" <smcmul...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> NO actually people made these dire predictions because I bought the fish too
> soon. And yes, I do understand now that it would have been so much better
> to wait. BUT, I had people tell me that ALL my fish would die and not
> survive the cycle. The cycling has not been any of the cause of the fish
> deaths I've had so far. The ich came later and by what all the many crazy
> differing opinions seem to indicate, no one truly understands the
> disease/parasite/virus as much as anyone would like.

I think part of why you are getting bad advice on boards is because
your language is imprecise and people can't determine your level of
understanding. For example, you keep calling saltwater white spot
disease ich and you have just referred to it as a virus. I suspect
you've done enough reading to know that "ich" is short for
Ichthyophthirius multifilis, a purely freshwater parasite, and that
Cryptocaryon is not a virus, but a saltwater protozoan. Problem is,
when you write like that people on boards cannot be sure you
understand the difference. Then they spend a lot of time backtracking
and telling you things you already know. (Me included!)

I disagree that nobody understands Cryptocaryon. It is a reasonably
well-studied saltwater protozoan parasite and we know its lifecycle
and lots of ways to kill it. The problems come in because things that
kill crypto also kill inverts, and even fish. Nobody has done a
systematic study as to which regimens work best for which of the
hundreds of fish that can be infected with crypto and how to apply
them. That's what leads to all the differing opinions. The truth is
probably that treating crypto varies with the strain, tank
inhabitants, and tank conditions and will be different for every
single hobbyist.

If I had known in the
> beginning what I know now, I would have started with like one fish at a time
> and just waited to see how they did. I would have bought the hospital tank
> and quarantined them before putting them in the display tank. But, the fact
> that I didn't hasn't been as big of a deal as I thought it would be.

The hardest part of this hobby is the cycle, and beginners with the
least knowledge and their very first tanks have the hardest time with
it. Everyone is eager to fill the tank with colorful fish. I got
lucky because a friend with aquarium experience coached me through the
cycle on my 29g freshwater tank. I ran that stupid tank with only
five black-skirt tetras for a month. I was testing the water every
couple of days in the hopes that the cycle was done and I could add
more fish! LOL!

> I do feel bad for the fish that have been lost. I especially feel bad for
> the tetras I accidentally killed. I had no idea they were so easily lost
> while re-arranging inside the tank.

That was an odd one, and sad. I always feel bad when I lose fish.

> At least, my water if finally in good shape. I'm still struggling with the
> hospital tank. But now that my RO/DI system is in place I'll get that tank
> in line.

Glad things are looking up.

--Altum

[Atom Weaver]

On Mar 5, 12:54 pm, "Eduardo Starling" <edu7...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Even not liking
> chemistry very much,

blasPHEEEE-MER!!! ;-)

> I've been reading and learning, for the love of the hobby
>

Good for you. The Molecular Light and Truth are now within your
grasp.

DaveZ
Atom Weaver
...has a titrimetric wet bench setup in the basement for monitoring
aquarium water quality via ASTM methods.

[Donna Camp]

I think you've inhaled too many chemicals in your lab....

How many days are you brave enough to be away from your tanks?????

Donna

----- Original Message -----
From: "Atom Weaver" <atomw...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: I'm all up and running now...

[Greg Wade]

I can't be away from my tanks for more than 2 days. The last fish feeder we got had a party with several friends over. They accidentally left a camera complete with pics of them rolling a joint on the kitchen counter. At least there is a 10 cent bottle/can deposit here in Michigan. I made $20 on the empties. Now if only that covered the cost of replacing the fish that someone killed thinking the fish liked to drink alcohol, too. We lost about 40 mollies and a dozen other fish between the two 75G FW tanks. They left the reef tank alone or I would have filed suit.

Once I can get 3 reliable automatic feeders and an auto-top-off system in place for the reef tank, I think we can take off for a whole week.

GW.

[Mister Gardener]

Donna Camp wrote:

I think you've inhaled too many chemicals in your lab....

I agree. I make it a rule to inhale nothing stronger that Melafix.

MG

[NetMax]

In my pre-reef days, 2 weeks, now, 3 days : (

Obviously something I'll have to work on, unless DaveZ brings his ASTM-
method titrimetric wet bench setup over occasionally while I'm
away ;~)

Reminds me, I'm house-sitting next week. They have an indoor pond
with about 40 Koi, big suckers. I'm going to take some measurements.
I think some of them are over 3 feet long, big enough to feed a family
of 8 with leftovers, but the big ones all have names, so they would be
missed ;~)

NetMax

> > Donna- Hide quoted text -

[Altum]

That's quite a horror story! I suddenly want automatic feeders.

--Altum

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

I recommend that if anyone gets any auto feeders they try to get one
with the most innovations like rena's "high tech" (I used quotes
because they really aren't much better than some in the past BUT out
of what's currently available they are most universally preferable)
one and the nutrafins (I don't know if the rena's are any better
(except the rena's look bigger and if true can last longer between
fillings) But the nutrafins I think need a little pellets mixed in
with the food to keep the food from sticking together and turning into
one object as opposed to powder and not getting out of the feeder -
rena's heat generator MIGHT prevent that type of clogging so might be
better) are pretty good. The rena's heat MIGHT really help make the
feeder much more reliable. Except for exquisite gear work the
rondomatic aren't necessarily the most wanted - I use them but that's
because I don't mind the racket my air pumps I use with the
rondomatics make. I use air pumps and bungee cords / etc. to make the
rondomatics continuously vibrate to make the rondomatics 100% reliable
so the trays actually drop through all the way as opposed to sticking
in the level position and food not getting delivered, again - if you
want quiet you'll have to use a different auto feeder. If you need an
auto feeder that will feed a lot of food to the fish (a aquarium full
of cichlids for example) buy a good pond automatic feeder. The rena
automatic feeders look good because they provide heat to prevent
clogging AND have a mixing bar (the nutrafins have a mixing bar too I
think but the nutrafins don't provide heat I guess (netmax?) AND have
an extra large food drum so it should last a lot longer between
fillings. I use rondomatics on all three of my aquariums and I have
retired my old Penn Plax daily double auto feeder after it looked like
it stopped turning like a clock. I use an additional nutramatic on my
turtle tank for a little extra and they are o.k. But have a small food
drum and require pellets mixed in with the crushed flake to prevent
clogging. Good luck all and later!