Saddle Sore / Bib Rash Advice

[Dave Rich]

I figured I would break this into it's own thread. 

Ive been suffering for years now in my long distance ( greater than 300k ) races and rando rides. I thought originally it was saddle sores or what people call saddle sores but after a ton of reading, I realize there are many different problems that can happen in those regions. 

I do not seem to get the typical in-grown hair / damaged follicle that is traditionally associated with "saddle sores". 

I get horrible rashes or what I assume is a rash. It's more like carpet burn, and bad. I usually finish most of my races slightly bleeding and unable to put any weight on my saddle. I have been through at least $1500-2000 in bibs, saddles, bike fits and nothing really seems to fix it. At this point, Im loathing my next race because..... ta dum! unbearable pain, which leads to knee / leg pain, foot hot spots and numb hands all from trying to literally save my ass so that I can finish. 

Im also tired of charging out and being ultra competitive only to come limping in, licking my wounds, being passed up. I cannot tell you how many races that even when podiuming, Ive finished with average heart rates of 125-130... hardly even putting effort down because i simply CANNOT sit down. Ever stood up for 5 miles at a time? I have. it sucks. bad. 

I have tried all kinds of chamois creams and while the lidocaine with advil in the latest one i use helps the most, I still hit the point where nothing short of just getting off of the bike helps. 

Im starting to consider chammy-less riding as many of my friends have turned to. Something, somehow, is rubbing me to pieces and no matter how much research or useless doctor visits, I cannot find an answer and Im getting desperate. 

Im also considering a heavy zinc-oxide base layer on the sit bones and surrounding areas and then chamois cream on top of that. Ive read to run this setup for 6-8 hrs, clean it all off, reapply. While I can see this ruining my perfectly calculated 8-10minute stops, if it saves my rear end, it might be worth it. 

I had two races I did where I finished and got home in front of a mirror to find a perfect rash in the form of the cutout in my saddle (since swapped to something else), bleeding and scabbing over. 

So my fellow randos.... im all ears. hit me with your best rando knowledge. otherwise.... Im probably done. 

[jer...@aol.com]

Hi Dave,

If your shorts are well padded with a good chamois, I would suspect that you probably haven't found the right saddle yet.  I like the Selle Anatomica.  Many randos like Rivet saddles.  Which saddles have you tried?

Jerry Austin

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[Dan Driscoll]

I’ve got a big box of saddles that have not worked for me, and happy to loan them out if you’d like to try one or more, in the box are quite a few Rivet Saddles that did not work out. 

Many Randos have gone to Infinity seats, with good luck, there have been in-depth posts about them on the Randonneurs google group, and Infinity is a RUSA Advertiser, which is a plus, I think there is a way to barrow one and test it out though an Infinity ambassador. 

DanD 

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[Joshua Haley]

How sweaty are you? The salt crystals can act like sandpaper which happened to me at the last PBP(diaper rash, not saddle sores). Washing up down.there can help that issue.

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[Richard Stum]

For years I had a similar problem. My saddle sores were also not the infected hair follicle type, but rather, due to abrasion due to the shape and width of the saddle. I have tried DOZENS of them (including both types of Infinity), some with cut outs and some not. My latest fav is a Brooks Team Pro (for general use) which I did my own cut out or slot. 

I have tried the "top of the line" bibs or shorts from Pearl Izumi, Craft and others. But lately, the trend is to put tons of padding under the sit bones, but next to nothing further forward, under my parts, which is problematic for aerobar users like me. For a 24-hour race I did last November, and despite being on a narrow TT saddle, the Black Bibs bib with their Ultimate chamois was the cat's meow. That chamois was much better than the others I used earlier in the year for 400 or 600Ks. 

Regards,

Rando Richard in the Mountains of Central Utah

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[mitch hull]

I too have a tender tush, though I don't put on the kind of miles y'all do.

I give this stuff more attention than anyone I know but hopefully you might glean a bit from this post that could help. 

I'm riding a Berthoud saddle that i had to cut out (it was before they offered those).  Took maybe 500 miles of shorter rides (under 30 miles) before i could tolerate it.

All this said, of course this whole subject is extremely individual and an long-running experiment of one.

I've gone to two saddle-area lubes.

1.  Rubbing into the chamois, especially the edges  where its sewn to the outer bib:

https://www.jamarklabs.com/sportwax-2-5-oz-twist-up-stick/

This stuff ain't cheap, and I once weighed the stick before and after applying and calculated a cost of $1 per use.

I've since gone to filling push-up tubes similar to the Sportwax one with a homemade concoction of refined beeswax and Vaseline.  Costs less than 10% of the commercial stuff

2. Applying Lantiseptic to the chafed areas of my skin.  I use a cheapo sandwich plastic bag to apply it and keep the sticky stuff off my hands.

I carry extra Lantiseptic and sandwich bags in my bag in case, but only need it when I forget to put it on before the ride.

I was able to give a fellow rider who was complaining of soreness some and it fixed it for her for the rest of her ride.

To clean the shorts I have to rub in liquid laundry soap before machine washing on gentle cycle with an extra rinse.

This leaves some residue on the Berthoud saddle but I wipe it off afterwards and the saddle hasn't overly softened up.  Also have to put down a towel in the car seat when driving home after a ride.

So its all kind of a pain, but not on my butt!

All this said, of course this whole subject is extremely individual and an long-running experiment of one.

Good luck and let us know how you solve it.

Mitch Hull

Battle Creek MI

RUSA 12202

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[Dave Rich]

I really appreciate all of this feedback and Im taking it all to heart, that I promise. 

It looks like Im going to be experimenting with several methods and variables here but I think a good place to start is 
- zinc oxide layer
- chamois cream on that
- clean every 8hrs and reapply
- wash bibs with Hibiclens or something as powerful

I also found out my coach doesnt ride with a chamois and he's done over half of Tour Divide, Arkansas High Country Full Loop and numerous other long distance off road races, all on tights with mtb shorts over those. 

As soon as I stop peeling down there like a bad sunburn, ill start experimenting. 

Here's to hoping

- David

[Dave Rich]

Jerry, 

I have tried Brooks Cambium C15, was ok, but I would get bleeding rashes in the shape of the cutout.
I have tried a Prologo Gravel saddle but that one absolutely killed me. 
I tried a specialized Power saddle, killed me. 

Im currently on a WTB Pure Ti and it is the lesser of all of the evils. I can make it 200-250 miles now before the rash starts and the pain sets in. 

All of these were bought in the right size for my sit bone spacing that I have had measured at shops and verified at home using the cardboard method.   

Richard, I have noticed the same. Lots of high end bibs now touting 10-13mm of chamois thickness. Im not sure that this would help my situation because it seems that the thicker the pad, the more moisture locking and bacteria catching it would do. aka, the deeper the swamp. I will check out those bibs though, thank you. 

[Toddk]

Perhaps the best saddle solution......

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[Pam Wright]

Therrrrrrre you are Toddie!!

Pamela Wright

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[Tom Rodgers]

Shorts, saddles, and crotch issues are very individual and variable. Whatever I'm going to say here is based on my own body type, riding style, and experience coaching and fitting hundreds of triathletes and cyclists. That does not necessarily mean it will apply to you, but my advice will be different from the typical randonneur and ultracyclist in this group.

I'm going to respond from a different perspective: an ultradistance triathlete specializing in races like Ironman (30+), Ultraman (2.5 times Ironman distance) who also did solo RAAM, 12-36 hour races, and rodecomparable or higher training miles to most randonneurs preparing for PBP. I probably averaged over 260+ miles/week for Ironman training and maybe 500 miles/week for RAAM. I don't attempt this distance any more due to aging and a lot of reasons, but NOT due to saddle sores. These miles were 80-90% in the aero position, and I was one of the best time-trial/triathlon aero bike fitters in the world (trained by John Cobb, who pretty much invented the science with Greg Lemond and Lance Armstrong), and I frequently had the top bike split in my age group in Ironmans, and won a national championship in the time for 50+ in 2011. I also coached hundreds of triathletes and cyclists mostly in the Ironman (180km bike) and longer distances, including a female world champion in Kona. I won the 6- and 12-hour races at the Texas Time Trials several times.

That being said, I did have problems with saddle sores but never race- or ride-ending ones. Usually I had the kind that were really an aggravated pimple, but these could become abscessed, as did one on my testicle that had to be surgically drained by a urologist. I'm going to agree with most previous responses that the cause is probably NOT primarily the riding shorts (but these do have a big effect), but rather the riding position.

The first thing to remember is that your riding position, power output and stress on your crotch will change over time. I put out about 170 watts FTP for one hour now compared to 330 watts at my peak at age 51. That means a lot more weight on the saddle every pedal stroke, because your legs are not lifting your pelvis up as much. My aero position has also become much conservative with time, though I still ride in aero position 50% of the time in the Texas wind, just higher up and on a more conservative endurance bike, not my time-trial/racing bike all the time like I did 15 years ago. Hence the change in saddles.

As a friend and student of John Cobb and  a dealer of his Cobb saddles, I was on those a long time, even after he sold his company. I rode for a number of years on his Delta P saddle (which was called the Plus 2 when I rode it), both for time trials, triathlons, and all the randonneuring brevets, both on my ultradistance bike in aero and on my faster time trial bike in the aero position. This worked well for about age 47-59 (before that, just standard San Marco tri saddle with padded nose, not a split saddle). I did have saddle sores occasionally, depending on the season, and the worst times were spring and fall, when the bike volume was high, but temperatures will still low enough for sweat not to evaporate. Swimming more in the summer in chlorinated water (a disinfectant), and riding in high heat up to 110F, made my sweat have so much salt content and evaporate quickly enough that the bacteria that causes saddle sores did not grow as much. Winter was also relatively sore-free, due to cold temperatures, low sweat rates, and reduced volumes.

About five years ago, as bike power and volume decreased, I started to get more saddle sores in specific areas due to the split V-shaped Cobb saddle. I was putting out less power, sitting up more often, and therefore putting more pressure on that spot between testicle and thigh. Aero position tends to distribute about 10-20% more weight forward, and reduced power also increased the rear weight. My body weight stayed about the same: I'm a big, power rider (185 pounds), like Cancellara in his best days, but could still climb and run well enough. I looked more like a football linebacker or fullback than an endurance athlete. Now I still weigh the same, but with a lot less muscle mass and strength, hence less power and speed.

So switched to the Adamo ISM 3.1 saddle around 2018-19, which has a small u-shaped cutout, but not the sharply sloping v-shaped padded cut out of the Cobb saddle. This flatter, more rounded split saddle eliminated the pressure points and the area-specific sores (ride in crease between testicle and thigh). They still augmented riding in aero position, but also worked well for long periods of only sitting up position, which happened sometimes for six months straight after two shoulder surgeries and heart surgery in the past two years. I've only been able to ride in aero again for the last two months. You won't see any randonneurs with these, but you'll see them everywhere at Ironman. If you know the history of aero positioning and saddles like I do, you'll know that John Cobb originally designed THAT saddle as well, but broke off from that partner and started  his own. Some of his employees went with Adamo as well. Nowadays, the two saddles don't look as much alike anymore. Adamo and ISM also have seemed to split now, so that performance saddles are now just ISM at:

https://ismseat.com/performance-narrow/pn-3-1/

Constant politics and business shifts with saddles: Butts and crotches are big business, if you did not already know :-)

Now about the crotch specifically and sports lubricants. I know there's been a lot of talked about not using cycling creme at all, going completely dry, or using things like baby powder only. This has been popular at times, especially in the days of leather cycling pads (which I used to love) and hard leather saddles. I don't think it's optimal with modern pads and saddles, though. The technology has just come too far now to ignore. I have tried every kind of crotch lube, including the expensive Assos Chamois Creme (a pro cyclist favorite), which I used for about ten years all the time, and still do occasionally. It is usually best spread on the saddle itself, not the crotch. But I don't use it as much anymore, even though it feels great, especially at first. I does not have sufficient antibacterial to prevent the kind of sores (and possible infections) that I can get.

So I went back to an old favorite, Sports Slick, which I'd used for decades for both cycling as a general lubricant for marathons on Ironmans on my chest, around arm pits for wetsuits, etc. It DOES have excellent antibacterial properties. It's also hard to get, only through the manufacturer now. I can't find it from amazon or other dealers any more. It's rather expensive but worth it to me. My wife uses it, too. I have at times, during bad saddle sore periods, used BOTH the chamois creme on the bike short pad AND sports slick on my crotch. Slippery, but helpful when desperate. It might work for you since you are desperate and a friction-related problem. If I were your coach, I'd recommend trying that combination first.

http://www.sportslick.com/

The last five years I've been happy with the Adamo saddle and the sports slick. That being said, due to changes in age, racing and lifestyle, I don't do 300km+ rides anymore and did my last FULL Ironman in 2022, mostly due to marathon running issues. Right now, I'm training for 30-mile hikes in high altitude in Tibet at 15-18,000 feet in May 2025. So is my wife. I am back up to 4-6 hour long rides after shoulder surgery, and still seem relatively fast compared to LSR folks, but definitely not like a was in my competitive racing days. I still do half-marathon and may do half-Ironman again.

I have always loved the Pearl Izumi top of the line shorts, both bib and short, for over 25 years--the pad has changed a lot over that time, for the better in general. I have also used Sugoi a lot because that's the house brand for Ironman logo shorts, which I have a lot of. And of course, I've ridden a lot with tri shorts and skin suits with minimal pad. These are not as comfortable on the bike, but have never caused saddle sores anymore than regular bike shorts. Other sponsor's shorts I have tried, but never purchases of my own volition. Generally speaking the more expensive brands like Assos and Pearl Izumi are better, but sometimes there second-tier model is also good for shorter rides.

Of course, this email was too long, but try the sports slick and ISM saddle and see. Whatever you do, only buy bike components with a 30-day trial period with full return privileges, which I always do. I've probably returnedover $25,000 worth of gear for a refund in my career. You don't know until you ride it for a 100 miles or more.

Regards,

Tom Rodgers

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