Casualties in Iraq
Taylorcofan
The Human Cost of Occupation
Date Total In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2663
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2526
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2196
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1797
Since Election (1/31/05): 1227
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19945 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality September 7th, 2006
Page last updated 09/8/06 11:36 am
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
- Groucho
JazzyJ
Pooooourrrrrrriiiingg...
Our President is driving me to tears...
After all these years....
No weapons...
Of mass destruction...
No Iraq...
& 9/11 connection...
We're a doomed natioooooonn....
We'd always dreamed we'd elect the perfect Pres...
But he turned out to be like every other man...
Our Pres...
...Our Pres...
Raining...
Pouring...
There's nothing left for him here...
And we can't waaaaaaaait....
Til 2008!
Enough is enough is enough
We can't go on! We can't go on no more no
Enough is enough is enough
We want him out! We want him out that door right now
Enough is enough is enough
(Donna Summer & JazzyJ)
____________________________
James Younce (aka Jazzy-J)
"Dim All the lights sweet darlin', Cuz tonight it's all the way...
Turn up the old victrola, Gon' Dance the night away...
Love it don't come easy, No it seldom does...
When you find the perfect love, Let it fill you up, fill you up...
Dim all the lights!!!!!" - Donna Summer
Taylorcofan
everytime I see a new number on Casualities of War and think of all the
dreams of that person whose life was cut short.
It's a shame...it's raining it's pouring the .....poor boys are
dyin'...how much more cryin' must be done?
JazzyJ
Toot toot heeeeeeey beep beep....
Bad Bush...
Talkin about the sad Bush..yeah ...yeah...
Sad Bush... talking about baaaad bush...
See him in the white house at night... always scheming...
Talking to all kinds of strangers, if the price is right...
He can't score with Americans right...
And Laura won't go down......
Now you ask yourself...
Why we're at warrrrrrrrr.........
Like everybody else....
He wants all that oiiiiillllllllllllllll
Bad bad sad sad bush..
Bad Bush, Sad Bush, you're such a naughty naughty Bad Bush
Beep beep, uh huh...
Toot toot ahhhhh beep beep
Hahaha oh lawd, I had my coffee too late in the day today
____________________________
James Younce (aka Jazzy-J)
lebanonfan
and tries to one-up you!
JazzyJ
don't know lol
But a tribute to Lebanon & Bush...
Bush why do you drink?
Bush why do you snort coke?
Why won't you live by the laws that we wrote?
(he says)
Try and think it over...
Put yourself in my position...
United Nations leave me alone,
I'll do this shit on my own...
It's a family tradition
swampfoxygen
:-)
S O
2
Taylorcofan
At Least 62,006 Killed in Terror War
Bin Laden Trail Goes 'Stone Cold'
Investigation: The CIA's Secret Prisons
CIA Still Hiding 'Ghost' Captives
At a Secret Interrogation, Dispute Flared Over Tactics
US Death Count Excludes Bombs, Mortar Attacks
Army Official: Rumsfeld Forbade Talk of Postwar Plans
At Least 6 Killed in Iraq as Police Find 16 More Tortured Corpses
Senate Reports Say Saddam Rejected Cooperating With Terrorists
Iraq Parliament Delays Divisive Federal Debate, Maliki Delays Iran
Visit
Tortured Screams Ring Out as Iraqis Take Over Abu Ghraib
Syria Rejects EU Border Presence
Israeli Arab MP Warns Syria of Potential Attack
Hamas Sources: Prisoner Swap Negotiations at Dead End
UK Offers More Troops for Afghanistan if Allies Refuse
Afghan Governor Killed as NATO Claims to Kill 94 Taliban
Top UK Soldier Quits Over 'Grotesque' Afghan War
More Attacks Expected in Afghanistan: Karzai
sigh.........
Blackberry
rwhi...@elkcreek.net
the FOX Channel babel that we have today...But it is better for him to
open this dialogue on a national front than nobody...hope it has
resonance.
Taylorcofan
15 minutes ago
As of Monday, Sept. 11, 2006, at least 2,669 members of the U.S.
military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March
2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven
military civilians. At least 2,127 died as a result of hostile action,
according to the military's numbers.
The latest identifications reported by the military:
· Army Sgt. Luis A. Montes, 22, El Centro, Calif.; died Thursday at
Brooke Army Medical Center, San Antonio, of injuries suffered Sept. 1
in Abu Ghraib; assigned to the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry
Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood,
Texas.
· Marine Cpl. Johnathan L. Benson, 21, North Branch, Minn.; died
Saturday of injuries suffered June 17 in Anbar province; assigned to
the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine
Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a
continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave
national emergency.
- General Douglas MacArthur
___
swampfoxygen
to see a detailed breakdown of this new law and its particulars in
regards to the affect upon civil-liberties and true american freedom.
S O
2
Taylorcofan
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2673
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2536
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2206
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1807
Since Election (1/31/05): 1237
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19945 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality September 14th, 2006
Page last updated 09/14/06 1:44 pm EDT
If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in
nation-building missions, we're going to have a serious problem
coming down the road.
- George W. Bush
daisy
died before this war. Because of better body armor and better
doctoring capabilities in the field, lives are being saved. Their
quality of life may not be the best, but they are alive. How high
would the casuality count be if this wasn't happening. It just might
shock most of the people in this country how many lives that would have
been lost in this war.
Taylorcofan
of Saddam Hussein in Paradise Square on April 9, 2003, media
organizations and human rights groups were complaining that no one was
keeping track of the number of people killed in the war that started a
month before. Some observers believe that measuring the bloodshed on
both sides of the conflict is a useful way to measure the progress of
the war. Civilian Iraq deaths: 43,145 to 47,921
That's a belief not shared by U.S. or British military officials. Gen.
Tommy Franks, the top officer in the U.S. Central Command for the wars
in Iraq and Afghanistan, summed up the American military's attitude
when he told reporters during the Afghan campaign, "We don't do body
counts." But the U.S. military, like the British, does count its own
dead and wounded, even if it has tried to limit the public's awareness
of those numbers by preventing the media from covering military
funerals or the coffins returning from Iraq.
Rulers who want to unleash war know very well that they must procure or
invent a first victim.
- Elias Canetti
Taylorcofan
military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003,
according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven
according to the military's numbers.
The AP count is five more than the Defense Department's tally, last
updated Friday at 10 a.m. EDT
Taylorcofan
It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks
and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood...War is hell.
- General William Tecumseh Sherman
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2683
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2546
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2216
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1817
Since Election (1/31/05): 1247
Detainee Waterboard Technician
situation. Sure feels like we're on a double-time march to hell, while
Bush keeps telling us it's gonna snow and to bring jackets.
S O
2
Taylorcofan
War is organized murder and torture against our brothers.
- Alfred Adler
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2684
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2547
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2217
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1818
Since Election (1/31/05): 1248
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19945 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality September 16th, 2006
Page last updated 09/18/06 6:22 pm EDT
Taylorcofan
destruction.
- Bernard M. Baruch
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Date Total In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2689
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2552
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2222
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1823
Since Election (1/31/05): 1253
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19945 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality September 18th, 2006
Taylorcofan
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon on Friday released the names of three
soldiers killed in a suicide car bombing in Baghdad on Sept. 14,
including a female soldier who initially was listed as missing because
so few remains could be found. The recovered remains of Sgt. Jennifer
M. Hartman, 21, of New Ringgold, Pa., were flown back to the United
States earlier this week for positive identification. She was assigned
to the 4th Support Battalion, 1st Brigade, 4th Infantry Division, based
at Fort Hood, Texas.
Also killed in the attack were Sgt. Aaron A. Smith, 31, of Killeen,
Texas, of the 4th Battalion, 27th Field Artillery Regiment, 2nd
Brigade, 1st Armored Division, based at Baumholder, Germany; and Cpl.
Marcus A. Cain, 20, of Crowley, La. He was assigned to the 4th Support
Battalion, 1st Brigade, 4th Infantry Division.
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2694 2191
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2557 2092
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2227 1884
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1828 1559
Since Election (1/31/05): 1258 1074
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19945 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality September 21s
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.
- Thomas Alva Edison
Taylorcofan
explain to us what the exit strategy is.
- George W. Bush
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Date Total In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2737
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2600
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2270
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1871
Since Election (1/31/05): 1301
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 4th, 2006
Page last updated 10/6/06 11:17 am EDT
US Military Deaths by Month
Taylorcofan
explain to us what the exit strategy is.
- George W. Bush
By The Associated Press
1 hour, 37 minutes ago
As of Monday, Oct. 9, 2006, at least 2,748 members of the U.S. military
have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according
to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven military
civilians. At least 2,176 died as a result of hostile action, according
to the military's numbers. The AP count is 19 more than the Defense
Department's tally, last updated Friday at 10 a.m. EDT
As of Sunday, Oct. 8, 2006, at least 279 members of the U.S. military
have died in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan as a result of the
U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001, according to the Defense
Department. The Defense Department last updated its figures on
Thursday, Oct. 5, 2006.
Taylorcofan
explain to us what the exit strategy is.
- George W. Bush
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2751
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2614
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2284
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1885
Since Election (1/31/05): 1315
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 9th, 2006
Taylorcofan
truthful, and virtuous.
- Frederick Douglass
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2754
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2617
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2287
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1888
Since Election (1/31/05): 1318
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 11th, 2006
Frugalrock
http://www.americanfamilytraditions.com/war_casualties.htm
WWI 53,402 USA deaths
WWII 291,557 USA deaths
Korean War 33,741 USA deaths
Vietnam War 47,424 USA deaths
Not to minimize the US servicepeople who have died but I wonder what
the media of today would have done in these wars of the past?
FR
Frugalrock
difference between Iraq and WWII? Did you mean that?
FR
lebanonfan
number of lives saved now as opposed to WWII.
Taylorcofan
wars. This thread is to keep at least me mindful of the needless and
mindless, deaths and injury to our U.S. military.
If I had been comparing U.S. deaths in Iraq vs Vietnam, I could not be
really comparing "apples to apples." With addition of Kevlar vests,
and other equipment, as well as greater medical resources it is a good
assumption that the majority of U.S. injuries in Iraq would have been
U.S. deaths.
Search for the truth is the noblest occupation of man; its publication
is a duty.
- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael
Frugalrock
today in our military fighting in the best military in the world but we
lost 291,000 men and women in WWII. I wonder where the uproar was in
the popular media then? Answer: there was very little and a bunch of
support. Perspective is important.
FR
lebanonfan
astounding changes in medicine and technology as well as communications
over the years. They all have to be considered.
As for support, America has not been enlisted to share the sacrifice as
they were in the second world war. People had "victory gardens" back
then. There was rationing. Iron fencing around Marion County was taken
up and recycled in support of our troops then. 300 women stood in line
in Loretto to buy nylon hose -- in very short supply due to the war.
Trains pulled through our little towns carrying soldiers, and people
would gather to cheer them on. Women went to work outside the home in
numbers unheard of before then - someone had to keep the country going
while all the men were fighting. War then was personal and touched
every household in an intimate way. It's different now.
Foxtrot
Vietnam classified exclusively as Killed in Action? The reason I ask is
the official http://thewall-usa.com/ Vietnam web site reports 58,178
lost their lives. Similarly, in World War II approximately 440,000
Americans lost their lives overseas while serving our country. These
numbers include both hostile and non-hostile deaths. When people report
American war deaths, they are categorized and reported many different
ways. Thanks in advance for clarification.
Taylorcofan
For "once I agree with you" perspective is very important.
daisy
especially of treating the wounded in the field, that many of the high
number of wounded would be deaths in other wars. While you are looking
at the statistics of the number of wounded you have to realize that
these are not minor wounds. These soldiers are severely wounded.
Visit the VA nursing home section at the VA Hospital on Leestown Road
in Lexington. It will open your eyes and also break your heart.
rwhi...@elkcreek.net
Damn Frugal...I coulda sworn there were at least 55,000 dead in
Vietnam....some say 58000...are you suffering from some revisionism???
Foxtrot
Taylorcofan
military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March
2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven
military civilians.
Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to
Frugalrock
found them. Fox, I respect your opinion more than most on this subject
as a veteran. I don't care what others say, that gives you first seat
at the table of discussions IMO. My post, and I would like your
opinion, is to the perspective of deaths in war action. I do not want
to and am not intending to minimize the loss of life in IRAQ but
compared to the number of servicepeople in WWII just for example the
scale is off the charts. We lost so many servicepeople back then. I
can't imagine the popular media of today and the reaction to the losses
on Dday alone. Those stories of young men of Point Du hoc and heroism
are just amazing. The media of today would never stand for the
tremendous loss of life before they would have called for surrender and
pack it in.
FR
Taylorcofan
There have been 2,757 U.S. military deaths since the March 2003
U.S.-led invasion. The U.S. death rate and overall toll still remain
far lower than in the Vietnam War, when 58,000 U.S. troops were killed.
The Pentagon said 20,895 U.S. troops have been wounded in combat, many
maimed by grievous blast wounds from insurgent roadside bombs, the
leading cause of American casualties. At least 6,000 others have
suffered wounds in accidents and other noncombat situations.
Frugalrock
2,000 soldiers were lost in a couple DAYS of battle in one mission.
FR
Taylorcofan
I can't imagine the response by liberals back in WWII when more than
2,000 soldiers were lost in a couple DAYS of battle in one mission
What do right wing, conservatives think of the death toll and injuries
for U.S. troops as well as Iraqi's in Mr. Bushs war of choice?...I'd be
curious to know.
Frugalrock
soldier in battle is courageous and heroic. They are the best of the
best in the world. They always have been and always will be unmatched
in the work they do. I think many conservatives are very aware of the
scope and respect greatly the efforts of the WWII generation. The
stories of the heroic efforts of soldiers on Dday are just amazing and
when faced with incredible odds they overcame and succeeded. I think
the fact that many servicepeople want to finish the mission and win
(what that means is a big question) is admirable and speaks volumes of
their commitment.
What in the world would have been the reaction here after the intial
battles post Dday? I can only imagine the reports.
FR
Taylorcofan
families did then. I know my father (a Democrat) fought in "Normandy
and the Battle of the Bulge" and was a patriot, a hero and a I can only
imagine what he would think of this unprovoked invasion of Iraq and
what he would have thought of a man like George Bush, as their
Commander in Chief.
I think many of us feel like my father would have.....and that's why
there's so much anger. We never thought the elected leaders of our
country would have stooped to the depths they have to put our military
in harms way on a whim, "State of Denial" People have basically not
changed but when the ethics of those who lead in our government do.....
they lose support of their people.
Kevin
There were liberals back in WWII so you don't have to imagine. There
were far MORE liberals then than now. And as I understand it, (I am not
quite that old) the war was popular. The majority of citizens supported
the war effort. If you have any evidence of any liberals who did not
support the war effort in WW II, I would be interested in seeing it.
Oh there were exceptions like the right wing conservative, Henry Ford,
who at least at one point sympathized with Hitler.
But where is the shared sacrifice in this war. Where is the sense that
this is an American war effort? And if you believe that the Iraq war is
killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, throwing Iraq into civil war
and creating more terrorists, does it make any sense for anyone to
continue to support the daily carnage.
Now you might believe that the war is saving lives, making the US safe
from terrorists and creating a unified Iraq but you would have to
ignore the facts to hold that belief. But if you did, then you should
support the war. If you don't hold those beliefs, then you ought to
support the ending of the killing.
Frugalrock
Reread the post. I said liberals of today. I don't there is anyway with
the type of 24/7 around the clock reporting and on the scene reports
that with the carnage of Dday there would not be outrage from liberals
questioning the validity of any mission with that kind of loss of life.
2000 soldiers in a one day on one mission. Not to diminish the deaths
of our servicepeople today lost in this war but these are the best
fighters in the world.
Amazing story today of sacrifice by a Navy Seal.
Sadaam and his henchman destroyed countless thousands of his own people
(as have many other dictators in the world who the world community
should support in their downfall also). The world is a better place
with these type of people in Hell with Hitler, Stalin and the like. I
am not for capital punishment but it is very hard to argue with not
allowing his people to bury him while alive as his henchmen were
instructed to kill innocent people in Iraq, we learned this week in
testimony.
FR
Taylorcofan
Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan,
King Abdulla of Saudi Arabia
Hu Jintao, China
Saparmurat Niyazov, Turkmenistan
Seyed Ali Khamane'i, Iran
Teodoro Obiang Nguema, Equatorial Guinea.
Fidel Castro,
Muammar Qaddafi,
Kim Jong-Il,
Robert Mugabe,
Sudan's Omar al-Bashir,
Shwe of Myanmar,
These are some dictators the world knows of and some of the world's
worse..There's genocide in the Darfur but....Saddam was daddy's revenge
nothing more.....in my humble opinion
Frugalrock
will suffer forever for the despicable lives they have lived and the
people who were tortured and killed under their reign as dictators.
FR
Taylorcofan
a war of lies arrive.
Foxtrot
pack it in.
FR
-----> I'll try and respond to your request and I'll try to be brief.
***** First of all, anyone who has ever experienced war detests it in
the worst way. My deceased highly decorated Dad who fought under
General Patton in the Battle of the Bulge put it best when he said,
"All wars are fought for many different good or bad reasons but when
Pearl Harbor was attacked killing over 2000 people, the all gloves come
off and that was total justification to kill as many Germans, Italians,
Japanese and all their allies as possible." I remember commenting to
him that the Germans and Italians didn't directly attack us." His
response, "who gives a damn, they are allies of the Japanese and all
our enemies deserve the same bullet."
Therefore, when 9-11 occurred on our own soil it was time to "GO." I'm
just sorry our President and Congress delayed action by going to the
United Nations given their track record. Once the element of surprise
on foreign soil is lost, then the aggressor (being us) will lose many
more lives..
When war was declared I immediately thought about those in uniform who
would inevitably die. War is NEVER popular, but once our troops hit the
ground on foreign soil it doesn't matter what those in favor or
disfavor think, say or do. We now have a job to do so let's get it
done. Contrary to what most people think there are many more failures
in war than successes. Prior to Vietnam the American public heard more
about the latter from the media than the former. Today, it is exactly
the opposite which is unfortunate.
When I see current casualty statistics published I am amazed there
aren't more. There are far more deaths on our own highways than in the
theatre of this war. Again, we now have a job to do and that is to kill
as many terrorists as possible and keep civilian causalities to a
minimum. We are doing a great job at that compared to past wars so that
is a huge positive. War is not a popularity contest so decisions can't
me made my opinion polls. We have an exit strategy and that is we don't
come home until the job gets done (same as Korea). We are still in
Korea as we should be and the same exists today for our troops in the
mid east, regardless of the hardships. We learned our lesson in Vietnam
when our politician's caved in because of public outcry. We can never,
never, never let that happen again. We owe it to 300 million US
citizens and certainly to those who lost their lives in previous war.
Our country is well worth defending and if we don't, who will? It is
far better to fight on their soil than mine. Therefore, those who
scream in protest will just have to scream because I have no time to
listen to their rhetoric, insults, or whatever else they have to say.
If you notice, in most cases those who scream the loudest offer no
solutions. Let me ask you this. How many of those who support the war
that you know get into name calling, display hatred, throw out insults,
etc....? I am entitled to my opinion just as much as the next guy who
totally opposes me. Those who oppose the war aren't going to change my
mind any more than I am going to change theirs.
Frugalrock
your service to our country. Thanks to you and all the other service
personnel for their service to the greatest country in the world.
FR
Kevin
Frugal wrote:
> The media of today would never stand for the
> tremendous loss of life before they would have called for surrender and
>
> pack it in.
The media shamelessly gave Bush a free ride when he claim WMD in Iraq
with faulty information. The media is far more righ-wing than it is
left wing
>
> FR
> -----> I'll try and respond to your request and I'll try to be brief.
> ***** First of all, anyone who has ever experienced war detests it in
> the worst way.
And the vast majority of the Bush neo-cons never went to war. Bush I
followed the advice of Powell and his military. Bush II ignored
Powell's advice.
Foxtrot wrote:
> Therefore, when 9-11 occurred on our own soil it was time to "GO." I'm
> just sorry our President and Congress delayed action by going to the
> United Nations given their track record.
That is where you get sloppy with your statements as the Bush
administration would want you to be. No one opposed the Afghan war
because that regime was related to the 9/11 attack. Iraq had NOTHING to
do with 9/11 and the overwhelming evidence is that Sadaam had no
connection with bin-Laden. So did you say that 9/11 had something to do
with Iraq? No you did not. But you put 9/11 out there and time to go to
war out there and leave it for the reader to associate the two when
there is no evidence of any association.
Foxtrot wrote
>Again, we now have a job to do and that is to kill
> as many terrorists as possible and keep civilian causalities to a
> minimum.
Our job is NOT to kill as many terrorists as possible or enemy
combantants or insurgents or however you want to describe the people we
are killing. Our job is to make our protect our national security. The
intelligence community (not the left wing) has said that our presence
in Iraq has made the world more unsafe for American interests. So why
continue on a path that is making us more unsafe and is against our
national interests other than because you want to be macho.
Fox wrote
> We have an exit strategy and that is we don't
> come home until the job gets done.
And if you define our job as killing as many terrorists as possible,
then we will never come home because our presence creates more and more
terrorists and we will never get ahead of the killing vs. creating
terrorist curve. Now if the job is to make the US safer and our
presence in Iraq makes us more UNsafe, then the strategy should be that
we get out of Iraq.
> We learned our lesson in Vietnam
> when our politician's caved in because of public outcry. We can never,
> never, never let that happen again.
And it was a right wing Republican who eventually evacuated Vietnam
(and I would say belatedly) so are you calling Nixon the cut and run
president and the liberal Johnson the war president?
The lesson we should have learned in Vietnam is that "Communists" and
now "terrorists" are not monoliths but are more basically nationalists.
What were we trying to do in Vietnam? We had this misimpression that
Communism was on the march and that if Vietnam fell to the communists,
then Thailand, Cambodia, and the rest of Southeast Asia would also fall
to Communism and before long we would lose Japan and Korea etc. So
what happened. Vietnam went communist and now we trade with that
country and the killing of millions has stopped.
And after all, although public opinion polls should not be used to
micromanage policy, the democratic process that we have put into play
MUST govern our overall policies. Otherwise we will become a military
government as it relates to foreign policy.
>
> Our country is well worth defending and if we don't, who will? It is
> far better to fight on their soil than mine.
NO ONE disagrees with that statement. But there are lots of us who
disagree with the association that is being made that fighting in Iraq
is in defense of our country. Iraq never was involved in 9/11. Iraq
never threatened our country. And Iraq was never going to fight on our
soil.
>Therefore, those who
> scream in protest will just have to scream because I have no time to
> listen to their rhetoric, insults, or whatever else they have to say.
> If you notice, in most cases those who scream the loudest offer no
> solutions. Let me ask you this. How many of those who support the war
> that you know get into name calling, display hatred, throw out insults,
> etc....?
The goals of all Americans are the same. We want a free and safe
country. To label me "soft on terrorism" or a "cut and run" Democrat
because I believe that we are weakening our country with a senseless
war in Iraq is the highest of insults because it touches the most
important of our values. To imply that I don't support the brave people
who are fighting Bush's war because I don't support the war is the
tactic of the Bush administration and the right wing . So if someone
insults me and calls me stupid and tells me that all my sense has
leaked out of my bald head is pretty petty. It is far more an insult to
say that my protest of this war is not patriotic and shows that I don't
support our form of government. Bush's use of the bravery of these
soldiers as a political tool to win an election is obscene.
Fox wrote
>I am entitled to my opinion just as much as the next guy who
> totally opposes me. Those who oppose the war aren't going to change my
> mind any more than I am going to change theirs.
Fox - my opinions and your opinions when based upon agreed facts
probably differ far less than many people can imagine. If you agreed
that leaving Iraq would made the US more safe, then I would assume that
you would favor leaving even if you had favored the invasion initially.
I cannot imagine that you would favor the continued killing and maiming
of American soldiers (as well as Iraqis) if that killing just makes us
more unsafe.
And I favored the attack on Afghanistan and favored tracking down
bin-Laden. I also favored the infusion of capital into Afghanistan so
it could be a beacon for what America can do on behalf of countries
that support us. We said we were going to do that. But we have not and
Afghanistan has become a symbol of empty promises made by an American
president who left Afghanistan because of a short attention span -
shouldn't we label him the "cut and run" president who cut away from
Afghanistan when the hard work came up and ran into Iraq when he
mistakenly thought he would have an easy time of it?
Taylorcofan
other war to date in other wars they died. The cost of maintaining
their health care and paying their disabilty payments will go into
billions of tax dollars a year. It is quite simple to understand and I
can't understand what could prevent anyone from realizing the massive
debt at home this illegal invasion has foisted upon America, except
arguing for the same of it.
Frugalrock
less than a $billion? More people than the innoocent Iraqis under
Hussein around the world are being killed by their dictators. We should
be helping them also. The UN certainly is not interested in taking
action. And nuts in NKorea continue to starve his people slowly into
the stoneage. Should we stand around while hundreds of thousands of
people slowly die and have no hope for a life similar to what we enjoy
in the US? Are we selfish to believe we are the only people in the
world can have a high living standard?
FR
Kevin
A very good point and I dont know the answer. Some of the answers are
pretty easy to come up with. Should we spend the money. as Gates
Foundation is doing, to save people from malaria? Sure. Should we spend
the money to prevent and save people from HIV and AIDS - sure.
Then we come up against competing interests and those answers are not
so easy. Suppose that driving 55 mph saves lives? Should we reduce the
speed limit to 55mph? Suppose 40 mph saves even more lives. Should we
reduce the speed limit to 40 mph? So we settle on 55 or 65 or 70 with
the idea that people should drive safely but also be able to get to
their destination in a reasonable time.
The much harder ones are those that suppose the we need to start a war
to save people. The first question becomes whether a country's
sovereignity is waived when it unreasonably kills people. And who
determines that? Do we leave it to the UN or can the US arbitrarily
decide? Sudan seems to be an easy one. Sudan, in my opinion, has waived
its sovereignity by killing the people in Darfur and we should
intervene.
But far more people were killed by Stalin and Mao but we did not
intervene there. There was no moral reason not to but a political one.
If we invade China to cause a regime change, then what happens next?
And the Bush view used to be that it was not in the US interest to have
regime change. That seems to have changed, at least as applied to
Iraq.
And on a personal level, what should we do. Should we take up arms and
travel to Darfur and try to protect the refugees? Should we volunteer
for a year in Africa to fight malaria if our efforts might save ten
lives, a hundrend lives, a thousand lives? These are real difficult
questions to answer. Clearly, we would volunteer locally if our efforts
would save one life.
So on a personal basis and on a national basis, these questions do not
come supplied with an easy answer.
Frugalrock
WWII 291,557 USA deaths
Korean War 33,741 USA deaths
FR
Taylorcofan
for...what has your last post to do with Casualties in Iraq. Just
curious
http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Frugalrock
these losses of life are as high as any conflict. The losses are awful
but small in comparison to other wars. In fact, some wars of the past
had more losses in one day than the loss of life in Iraq.
FR
Taylorcofan
it. And like I and others have said to you because of advances in
medicine we will not have the numbers we've seen in other wars...Do you
get that FR? Just wondering because you keep arguing numbers that
can't be compared "apples to apples" ....get it? I also believe that
the "very few" people who read our posts are able to get my
meaning....but do you?...naaah..
http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
We Americans have no commission from God to police the world.
- Benjamin Harrison
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2758
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2621
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2291
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1892
Since Election (1/31/05): 1322
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 14th, 2006
Frugalrock
perspective of the loss of life in war. I will give updates when you
post yours. Balance is important.
You have a viewpoint of war and others have a very different
perspective.
FR
daisy
physically and mentally wounded that should concern us citizens. Where
in others wars the loss of lives was more in number, the wounded count
was down comparatively. Anyone unable to comprehend the toll of the
wounded on our society, visit your nearest VA hospital and talk not
only to the Iraqi veterans but to their families.
The results of war - the physically and mentally wounded - affect not
only the soldier but their families. It is very hard for a child to
grow up in a house where there is a combat veteran who is severely
wounded either physically and/or mentally. We will as a society feel
the affects of this war for many years to come.
Taylorcofan
One in every three soldiers are coming back wounded either mentally or
physically and ..ofcourse we know because of our medical advancements
many who would have been among the dead in these other wars ...with the
same injuries.....are now coming home. Some will be confined to
nursing homes for the remainder of their lives, while others will be
left without limbs, sight or the mental capabilities to cope, or be
able to provide for themselves and/or their families. The will have a
lifetime of suffering.
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0401/chart.iraq.fatalities/content.4.html
With the specter of the Vietnam quagmire hanging over them, Bush and
Rumsfeld can only talk about a "successful" war by emphasizing the
relatively low number of Americans killed in Iraq, and hiding the
extraordinarily high number of wounded. But for those who had
sacrificed their lives and limbs to preemptively protect the U.S.
against Saddam Hussein's nonexistent weapons of mass destruction,
Bush's war has been a complete failure.
Frugalrock
Sadaam are that he is no longer around?
As a society we should do everthing we can to support veterans, widows,
orphans, the mentally and physically handicapped to all our abilities.
The deserve all our support.
The ablebodied can take care of themselves.
FR
Taylorcofan
Frugalrock wrote:
> Wonder how thankful the people who would have been slaughtered by
> Sadaam are that he is no longer around?
>
gone, go leave.
We're killed hundreds of thousands ourselves, and maimed other
thousands....We're destroying their entire country...I don't believe
they think we're their "liberators" The United States' top military
commander has admitted that Iraqis want US and other foreign troops to
leave the country. The Iraqis who hated Saddam hate the Americans more
Anti-American graffiti is common on the walls of every Iraqi city, you
find pro-Saddam graffiti, calling for jihad against the Americans.
Every morning formerly empty walls are painted with `Long live Saddam!'
and graffiti praising the former leader and calling for his return.
So Frug....I am not sure you can call that thankful....
Frugalrock
similar to those in Iraq who dislike Pres Bush as much as you do.
But the majority of Americans will make that decision to start a new
direction in a few weeks. I don't think they will change paths with the
House and Senate. Right now probably the House but we will see if the
Dems screw up this opportunity for divided govt.
It is very selfish to assume that no one in the world is allowed to
have the hope for a high standard of living as we enjoy in the US
today. Capitalism works whenever tried and left alone to succeed.
FR
lebanonfan
election...
Frugalrock
You never agreed to the bet. Are you in or out of our wager?
FR
lebanonfan
November 7th.
Frugalrock
FR
Frugalrock
WWII 291,557 USA deaths
Korean War 33,741 USA deaths
FR
Kevin
Frugalrock wrote:
> Wonder how thankful the people who would have been slaughtered by
> Sadaam are that he is no longer around?
>
Those who would have been slaughtered are very thankful. But AVERAGE
Iraqis were better off with Sadaam than they are now. That does not
speak to the goodness of Sadaam but to the devastation that is going on
now.
Frugalrock
blessings of capitalism? We should be the only ones who have high
standards of living in a free enterprise world? That is pretty selfish
of us to say we can succeed but you must live under a dictator. Are the
NKoreans better under their dictator now as the slowly starve to death
and have no promise of a prosperous life under the current regime? Come
on Kevin. What type of world view is that?
FR
lebanonfan
the arial map of Korea showing North Korea dark (no electricity) and
the South all lit up?
I am just wondering why the entire border of North Korea was lit. What
was that all about? An enhancement so we'd recognize the borders or
what?
Taylorcofan
Should we attack every country which has a dictator?...If now why?
Frugalrock
validity of govts which do not allow capitalism to flourish for their
people. The UN has no ability whatsoever to be the motivating factor
behind this expansion. The organization is inept. So we and other
countries should be leaders in the process. I does not mean to attack
them it means to allow capitalism to be introduced. China loves the
benefits of allowing their people to taste this new economy. Their
economy is booming because of capitalism albeit under the operation of
the govt.
TCF , I made a huge assumtion there. You do believe that capitalism is
the best form of economic model for commerce, don't you? Sometimes
liberals suprise me.
FR
cville1
former dictatorship. They were brainwashed into believing that. Did
any of you watch the National Geographic Explorer show where the host,
Lisa Ling, went undercover into North Korea with a team of eye doctors
who were performing cataract surgery on the North Korean people? Well,
the poor people were only "allowed" to have the surgery after they had
had the cataracts for years and were practically blind. Then instead
of thanking the surgeons they thanked their dictator and praised him
for their "good fortune". Also, the only decorations allowed in their
houses were pictures of him or of his father, their previous leader.
These people are also brainwashed by their leader so to say they are
happier that way is wrong. That is the only way they know. So no, we
should not attack every country that has a dictator; but when these
countries threaten world peace then they should be held accountable for
their actions whatever that may mean. The whole international
community is concerned, not just the United States.
Frugalrock
FR
Foxtrot
Since war began (3/19/03): 2758
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2621
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2291
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1892
Since Election (1/31/05): 1322
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 14th, 2006
Think about this. Any average concerned citizen and certainly 99% of
active duty military troops would be only concerned with two of the
above statistics - Killed and wounded.....All the Mission accomplished,
Since Capture of Saddam, Since Handover, etc...is anti President Bush
and purely for political agenda purposes. Any troop would see all thru
this and certainly not be pleased but this is a free country.
Kevin
The average Iraqi does not enjoy any promise of a prosperous life now.
Right now, they cannot walk the streets of Baghdad without getting shot
or beheaded. Shias and Sunnis are being killed on the basis of their
religious sect and for no other reason. It cannot be doubted that more
people are getting killed now than were getting killed before the
invasion. The streets of Baghdad were safer for most people than they
are now.
And so if given the choice of dying or living under the constraints of
a brutal dictator, most people prefer life.
And after all, we are willing in this country to give up our
constitutional rights when someone suggests that it MIGHT help keep us
safe. An Iraqi has much more reason to give up lots of rights to stay
alive.
We can talk about democracy but without a foundation, you cannot impose
democracy without creating a power vacuum. It was tried in Germany and
we ended up with Hitler. It was tried in Russia and we ended up with
Lenin and then Stalin. We have tried it in Iraq and we are going to end
up with a civil war and after that, we will end up with a dictator or
some kind. That is political reality and we can choose to understand it
or we can ignore the reality but the reality will occur.
I am not pessimistic but I am realistic.
lebanonfan
currently in power. Not only that, your glass is...hmmm....!yep!...half
empty. How dare you.
Taylorcofan
The chief qualification of a mass leader has become unending
infallibility; he can never admit an error.
- Hannah Arendt
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Date Total In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2763
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2626
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2297
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1897
Since Election (1/31/05): 1327
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 20468 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality October 15th, 2006
Frugalrock
Foxtrot
are distorted. This must be intentional on her part or just totally
unaware. Note: The above American causalities in Iraq contain both
hostile and non hostile deaths. A more accurate comparison would be
440,000 American WW2 troops (hostile & nonhostile) deaths to 2763 in
Iraq which is a highly significant difference.
Again, her daily updates are solely for political propaganda. If she
truly cared about our deaths she wouldn't include all the other data
(i.e.. Mission Accomplished, Capture of Saddam, Since Handover & Since
Election). Be advised, I have absolutely no problem with publishing
numbers for all those that have died and received wounds for this war
effort. In fact, I believe it should be easily retrievable for public
viewing.
What is appalling is using the military deaths of our loves ones to
push her political agenda. I say this because she creates numerous ANTI
President Bush threads each day in conjunction with other closely
related topics. She isn't fooling anyone. Just a couple days ago
another member complained that 3 created threads in just a matter of a
couple hours by saying, "Enough is enough, we get your point." It is
obvious she is obsessed and a very troubled lady. For her own sake, I
hope she gets help.
Frugalrock
liberals here are very consistent in their glass half empty world view.
In fact, if you reread most of the liberal posts from RW, SF, TCF etc
and think they are not glass half empty, I will buy you a very tall
glass of BP's magic elixir.
FR
Foxtrot
the 1/2 empty glass scenario, no pun intended......You were reporting a
FACT regarding those who actually died in combat. In contrast, TCF has
all along combined hostile and non hostile to inflate the numbers for
Iraq. Also, I've read liberal newspaper articles that had the numbers
so distorted it would make one think we are losing troops left and
right in Iraq. By comparison, the death rate in Iraq is insignificant
compared to all other U.S. wars. Wouldn't you agree?
Since the beginning of this war extremist liberals will write or say
anything to articulate their warped point of view. Their insecure
contingent are such small numbers perhaps, this is their only recourse
they have in hopes to gain converts. Some even resort to being
untruthful and certainly will take important issues out of context.
These are the same people that call our President and leaders of
friendly nations liars, murderers, and anything else they can
fabricate. Boy, do they have nerve.
I've reduced my postings because I just don't want to dignify their
negative unpatriotic views any more by responding. What difference does
it make anyway? Hey, conservatives show up at the polls on election day
and most liberals stay home so Howard Dean and Jesse Jackson can
complain that Republicans kept the Democrats away. They just keep on
scraping the bottom of the barrel but in doing so, they continue to
make us look good.
Taylorcofan
The chief qualification of a mass leader has become unending
infallibility; he can never admit an error.
- Hannah Arendt
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Date Total In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2766
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 2629
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2300
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1900
Since Election (1/31/05): 1330