What do we think of Sam Parnia's recent upbeat interviews regarding AWARE? See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CC_2yzqUVs

[michael duggan]

[michael duggan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CC_2yzqUVs

[no one]

shoot.  The video is down due to copyright infringement

[RabbitDawg]

Parnia has definitely had a shift in opinion. His book, Erasing Death was not what I thought it would be. He makes a strong case for the continuation of consciousness, and our collective ignorance of it.

The first half of the book makes the case in a subtle way by pointing out how long people can be "dead", yet still be revived. One spectacular example is the Titanic sinking. When the RMS Carpathia arrived at the scene about three hours after the Titanic completely sank, many of the victims could have been revived - if modern resuscitation techniques had been available. Because the water was 28 °F (−2 °C), their brain function should have been minimally impaired.
Using resuscitation as a model, he repeatedly begs the question,
"Where did the patient's consciousness go?"

Then he presents a case for the continuation of consciousness
using NDE's that is one of the best I've seen. Here's a link to an audio
interview with him on NPR's Fresh Air show:
http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172495667/resuscitation-experiences-and-erasing-death
(you may need to copy and paste, I'm not sure if this will show up as a hyperlink)

The fact that the interviewer (Terry Gross) isn't very sympathetic to him while he continues to push ahead makes Sam even more convincing to me.

[Michael Prescott]

I haven't heard the NPR interview yet, but I really liked the interview he did on Coast to Coast. Whatever happened with AWARE, Parnia has clearly been persuaded that consciousness continues after death. 

Pet peeve: "he repeatedly begs the question ..."

No, he asks (or poses) the question. Begging the question is a specific logical fallacy; it means assuming the conclusion that is under debate. 

I know it's a penny-ante thing, but somehow it bugs me. :-)

A good example of begging the question is Gerald Woerlee's argument that NDErs who perceive veridical details must have been using their five physical senses, since there is no other way to perceive the world. This of course assumes that there is no such thing as extrasensory perception, which is the very point at issue. (I don't think Woerlee is making the mistake deliberately; I think he just can't think outside the materialist paradigm, even to the extent of fully grasping his opponents' position.) 

[RabbitDawg]

Pet peeve: "he repeatedly begs the question ..."

No, he asks (or poses) the question. Begging the question is a specific logical fallacy; it means assuming the conclusion that is under debate.

  Thanks Michael, I've never been quite clear about that expression. I've seen it used in a lot of different contexts, so I assumed it meant what it sounded like - repeatedly begging for a question to be addressed. I could blame the public school system or the mainstream media, but nah...it's me.

  I want to say that Erasing Death makes the best, most convincing case for consciousness continuation that I've ever read, but I get that "best" glow after reading just about any good book. Still, Parnia's style and passion took me completely by surprise.
  Chris Carter's books present an excellent, elaborate set of arguments, yet Parnia seems to have a folksy "Dammit, I'm your Doctor! Wake up!" punch.

  I find it disheartening that Erasing Death isn't getting anything close to the attention Eben Alexander's Proof of Heaven got. His message would get into more hands if he would just collaborate with an experienced thriller/action/suspense novelist. You know, one who's written a lot of best selling e-books...

[Paul]

Hi rabbitdawg.

I read the review on amazon and it seemed like a book more about the process of death than survival. Did I misunderstand it?

[RabbitDawg]

  Good point Paul, Parnia never makes an outright claim of a firm belief in the continuation of consciousness. He can't. He's a medical professional, so he's restricted by our culture's idea of the scientific method. In our world, unless someone can post an evidential video on YouTube, or until a near-death experiencer brings back dirt samples, no one can make such a claim and expect to retain their professional credibility.
  Heck, with the current pseudo-skeptic control of academia, even a video with dirt samples would likely be unmercifully contested.

  I guess a better description of Erasing Death is to say that Parnia builds a case for the 'disappearance' and 'reappearance' of consciousness in ways that are undeniably inexplicable. He leaves the conclusion up to the reader. At the same time, his phrasing leaves little doubt in my mind that he personally believes in the persistent existence of awareness.

  At the end of the day, that's all any of us have. Personal predispositions, thoughts, and experiences that lead us to believe what we believe.

[michael duggan]

Parnia continues his positive appraisal of AWARE in this Guardian interview. The Guardian usually takes a no-nonsense approach to such matters outside the reductionist tent: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/06/sam-parnia-resurrection-lazarus-effect

[Steve Echard Musgrave]

While I appreciate the NDE work it seems to me that other than the cases where PSi abilities are exhibited ,i.e. seeing what they can not see physically,(the shoe on the roof for instance),blind people seeing colors and such there are better proofs for survival. Stev3enson andhis associates reincarnation work ,the work of the best mediums are very had to dispute as evidence for a non pseudo skeptic.

Also, it is confusing about the cultural aspects of these experiences ,in one book I read tey are almost universal in content in anther they vary by culture. Tunnels of light I read are universal then I read they are not in India they are uncommon. I read that one argument is that children see the still living such as playmates in there NDEs, and in another source they say No,only  the dead and angel  or spiritual beings are seen by children. None of this diminishes my belief in the continuation of consciousness, but it seems culture and belief shape a ot of it. Both in regard to medium's report and NDEs

[Paul]

Thanks Rabbitdawg that's a much more helpful description than most of the reviews I have read.

[Paul]

@steve - I have difficulty seeing reincarnation per se as being evidence of survival sometimes as it often looks like a sequence of unconnected lives. I suppose it depends what model of reincarnation we're thinking of. If I come back as a completely different person with no lasting recall of who I am now, I find it hard to think of myself as having survived.

[Paul]

Interesting article Michael. Paranoia sounds very down-to-earth.

[Paul]

Lol I meant Parnia

[RabbitDawg]

  Steve, I've had the same discomfort with conflicts in NDE analysis myself, but here's my take:

  The tunnel experience is not as common as the media would have us think. Less than 20% of experiencers go through it, and when they do, no two tunnels are described exactly the same way. Since the tunnel is just a passageway, it would be represented as something the experiencer is familiar with. An African may travel through the neck of a gourd, a truck driver could go through a tailpipe, and an aborigine might experience a long cave.


  As far as NDEr's seeing living people, my understanding is that this mostly happens to children, and the apparition disappears early in the experience, once the child feels safe. The living entity is usually a trusted teacher or friend, and there are no reports of children seeing living parents. That would scare them.
  If you remember a couple of Christmases ago, 18 year old Ben Breedlove posted a video about his three near-death experiences, right before  died. In his last experience, he saw (living) rap star Kid Cudi.
  Now, if I saw a rap singer in my near-death experience, I would think I had gone the wrong way, but for Ben Breedlove, it was soothing and inspiring. It's notable that seeing this living person in his NDE didn't disrupt Breedlove's belief in the continuation of consciousness.
  Here's a link to his video (one of the most heart rending I've ever seen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmlTHfVaU9o

[RabbitDawg]

  If needed, here's the link to the second half of Ben Breedlove's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4LSEXsvRAI

[Steve Echard Musgrave]

Paul

Buddhists usually refer to reincarnation as rebirth, a more accurate terms since Buddhism is a process philosophy not a substance ontology. From moment ot moment in this life some patterns remain and some change. We are not who we were when we were a child., even on the cellular ,level. Our adult mind bears little resemblance to our young mind, and we can change in an instant from kind and attentive to wrathful and chaotic or vice versa. In some of the cases birthmarks matching the post mortem wounds of the alleged previous incarnation are seen. Some character traits and predilections as well as actual memory's. Seems ot me to be pretty substantial of a continuing process of self going though death to rebirth. IN Zen this is referred to as the unborn undying mind. If say a child of two named Joe Smith in Omaha caims suddenly that  when he was bit he had a big Hacienda with a pretty wife and was murders by being shot in the head. He gives his name as Manuel Torres Alvarez.but his nickname was Torroito (little bull). He does not speak Spanish but knows many Spanish words he was not taught.SO someone checks out the information in Mexico there was such as person, the house matches his description they take him to Mexico he is able to point out his relatives form strangers  this kind of eveidnce has been produced it is hard to say that it is anything other than what it appears to be a person reborn. T It dies not follow that all people are by ut it is excellent evidence for survival. .

[Matt Rouge]

SEM, I agree! Interesting case.

[Paul]

Hi Steve

Survival of what though? True I am not the same person I was at age 5 or even 5 years ago. Although in a very real sense of course I am. The example you cite is not the same to my eyes. Having no recollection (which most of us don't appear to) of past lives, does not read like survival to me. As far as I am conscious now, I have no awareness of any existence in the past. Therefore, from my perspective it does not exist. I am an individual. If I return with a different personality and no recollection of this life, then as far as I can see, I haven't survived.

Unless of course there is some "über me" which incorporates the incarnate "me" and remembers my experiences and connections with others of course. If have read quite a bit on the subject of reincarnation and it doesn't resonate with me at all. That doesn't meant it isn't a fact of course.

[Steve Echard Musgrave]

Matt you might find this interesting

http://icteesside.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0001head/page.cfm?objectid=11540818&method=full

 

 

Paul survival of consciousness itself. That the mind is not the brain. This is a very old argument in Indian philosophy the Atman(soul)of the Vedas and Upanishads versus  Anatman no soul process philosophy of Buddhism.

"same person I was at age 5 or even 5 years ago. Although in a very real sense of course I am"  I Understand what your saying but to me that person has only the same name. Every cell in his body is no longer in me every idea he had then has been modified or changed by experience. Memory that is no to reliable for me I probably remember things I did not do, and do not remember things I did.." I feel interconnected with everything that is nothing is lost its all still there in universal Mind. .I do not know if all beings are  reborn or continued in another life as I said before .However, some of these cases provide the most difficult evidence for people to refute. I would to pay much attention to books written on reincarnation they are mostly plain nonsense. Stevenson and others like him provide a clear pattern for us of possibly why and who return for what reason.They remember their past life have the same personality that would seem to meet you criteria for self? On the other hand these cases are almost always ones of people who met a sudden or violent end to their life while young I did not believe in mediums' and an afterlife plane of existence for a long time until evidence changed my mind. So now I can accept that the mind is liable to manifest itself in many realms of existence.One thing I have learned is that the cosmos does not care what I like, or want much less want I think, it does what it does and it is me that has to adapt, so I try to be open and learn.

[Paul]

Hi Steve

Yes I get that survival has nothing to do with the physical body. I am not my body, that isn't the point I was making. In short, continuation of life without continuity of memory isn't survival IMHO.

I guess it depends what model of reincarnation one proposes. A cycle of reincarnation with no continuity of memory between incarnations seems pointless to me. Talk of 'aspects' of a person incarnating are difficult for me to grasp.

Of course what I think about the matter doesn't affect what really happens I am not sure why you mention it.

Many of the cases of reincarnation I have read about are equally explainable by spirit obsession however i agree for some that is not the most parsimonious explanation.

Hopefully we will all find out the truth of the matter in the end (unless of course we simply have endless reincarnation in which case we may find out but won't remember the answer lol).

[no one]

Paul, I think that there is a continuity of memory at the level of the subconscious. It's just that most of us, most of the time, are so distracted with the ego level of thinking that we don't pay much attention to what's happening just under the surface.

 

I know some people have offered that we are *supposed* to forget - which, if true, would support your position - but I think this is wrong. If anything, I think we are supposed to be more in touch with our deeper senses, thoughts and feelings. If we were, then this life would be more of a continuation of the previous ones.

 

It isn't important that we remember specific details, names and places, etc. What is needed is for us to remember general situations, choices, outcomes of choices, archetypes and their relation to us - the patterns.

[Paul]

It's important for me to remember people, places, names etc :) - speak for yourself!

[Art]

Don't get me started on reincarnation..... We've gone round and round about it on the near-death.com message board. Let's just say that I'm not a fan of reincarnation.   I

"I suspect that it is a time-based misreading of "interconnection". Also, when people say they felt that "I" had all these past lives, I think the I is not the I they think it is, but the I of interconnection, the I of universal presence incarnating in myraid forms everywhere. Because there are no absolute boundaries to this "I" it seems in an nde as if it is THEY personally." - Marineboy

[Bruce Siegel]

"when people say they felt that "I" had all these past lives, I think the I is not the I they think it is, but the I of interconnection, the I of universal presence incarnating in myraid forms everywhere. Because there are no absolute boundaries to this "I" it seems in an nde as if it is THEY personally."

I think this is pretty much true. But it's also true that Bruce Siegel has a more intimate connection with some of those "myriad forms" than with others.

It's not unlike my relationship with the 2-year-old Bruce Siegel. Is that "me"?

Yes and no. I don't remember a thing about being two years old, yet I do have a special connection or relationship with that human being. It's quite a different connection than I have with the 2-year-old Michael Prescott, for example, though at an even deeper "level," I'm identical with that person too.

As with all metaphysical truths, language can't express these relationships accurately, so arguments arise as to whether reincarnation is real. But the answer is perfectly clear: Yes! No!

[michael duggan]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/04/consciousness-after-death/all/

[Matt Rouge]

SEM, the Richter case is indeed amazing. Thanks for sharing that!