Question about grinding a new blade

[Steven Devijver]

I've ordered a brand new bench plane:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0034BCTRE

I'm a bit confused about grinding. The website says this about grinding:

Most new irons will have a 25 degree primary bevel and will be ready for honing. (link)

If my blade has the correct bevel, does this mean I will never have to grind it? Is correct honing sufficient to keep the blade sharp? Or do I need to grind each time before honing?

Thanks

[Ant Buz]

Steven,

Before I retired, www.anthonybuzak.com, I would take a blade that I ground to 25 degrees, then hone it. As a result of honing you will end up with very sharp edge but you could still see the hollow grind from the grinding wheel. After several honings that hollow grind will disappear and you will have to grind it again if you want that hollow grind effect. Unless you plane & hone a great deal grinding won't have to be done very often.

That's just how I did it......many others will have other opinions.

Tony

Anthony Buzak

56 Dexter St.
Tonawanda, NY 14150
716-693-1749

ant...@gmail.com

www.anthonybuzak.com

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[Paul Melanson]

You only grind the blade, when it's damage or when you want to change the bevel. Regular honing will keep sharp.

Envoyé de mon Playbook
Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook

---

From: "Steven Devijver" <sdev...@gmail.com>
To: "sharpen...@googlegroups.com" <sharpen...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 7 February, 2014 11:17 AM
Subject: [Sharpening-jig] Question about grinding a new blade

[Anthony Carrico]

On 02/07/2014 03:21 AM, Steven Devijver wrote:
> I've ordered a brand new bench plane:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0034BCTRE

Haven't heard of it, be prepared to fiddle with it a little to get it
working.

> I'm a bit confused about grinding. The website says this about grinding:
>
> Most new irons will have a 25 degree primary bevel and will be ready
> for honing. (link

> <http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sharpen.html#Gr>)

>
>
> If my blade has the correct bevel, does this mean I will never have to
> grind it? Is correct honing sufficient to keep the blade sharp? Or do I
> need to grind each time before honing?

Depends on the condition of the blade, like if it gets chipped or
something. Also you can't just keep taking material of the tip without
eventually grinding back further due to simple geometry. Sometimes,
often even, the material at the tip of a new blade chips easily since it
is too hard, but don't worry most blades are fine once you get through
that material as you sharpen a few times.

I don't mean to hijack this list, but I've actually given up on jigs and
just do it free hand, I "grind" a little on india stones each time
before honing on paper. It is so quick and easy, I don't have to make a
new jig for everything, or worry about the jig slipping off 90 degrees.
I do have a couple of triangles cut to various angles, to calibrate my
brain when necessary. I like bevel up planes and keep one at a low angle
and one at a high angle.

After trying a bunch of methods, I find the method demonstrated by Paul
Sellers (search youtube) works best for me. He grinds freehand, and
creates a convex bevel. Easy to do but hard to describe. Essentially it
is the analog equivalent to the digital microbevel. So quick and easy! I
like it. Sorry Brent!

--
Anthony Carrico

[Anthony Carrico]

On 02/07/2014 03:21 AM, Steven Devijver wrote:

> I've ordered a brand new bench plane:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0034BCTRE
>
> I'm a bit confused about grinding. The website says this about grinding:
>
> Most new irons will have a 25 degree primary bevel and will be ready
> for honing. (link

> <http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sharpen.html#Gr>)

>
>
> If my blade has the correct bevel, does this mean I will never have to
> grind it? Is correct honing sufficient to keep the blade sharp? Or do I
> need to grind each time before honing?

I guess didn't really answer the question. Here is the "simple geometry":

If you just hone a microbevel(s) at the tip, then the microbevel will
get wider and wider and wider until it will take too much work to hone.
At this point grinding the "macro" bevel will reduce the "micro"
bevel(s) and make it easy to hone again.

It is a matter of reducing the area you will have to hone. Clear?

--
Anthony Carrico

[Brent Beach]

Hi

I replied to Steven off list. Below is my reply

Hi Steven

I have not seen that brand of plane before.

When I saw your question about when to grind, when to hone, I thought to
myself - surely my pages make that perfectly clear!

Then I went and had a look and sure enough, they do not. Some things I
do naturally that I never explicitly put into the web pages.

I have updated 3 web pages - there are links from some to others now -
explaining in more detail how to decide when to hone and when to grind.
Try the link you included below. If it is still not clear, let me know.

Brent

On 2014-02-07 00:21, Steven Devijver wrote:
> I've ordered a brand new bench plane:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0034BCTRE
>
> I'm a bit confused about grinding. The website says this about grinding:
>
> Most new irons will have a 25 degree primary bevel and will be ready
> for honing. (link

> <http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sharpen.html#Gr>)

>
>
> If my blade has the correct bevel, does this mean I will never have to
> grind it? Is correct honing sufficient to keep the blade sharp? Or do I
> need to grind each time before honing?
>
> Thanks
>

> --
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

[Brent Beach]

Hi Anthony

On 2014-02-07 07:44, Anthony Carrico wrote:
> After trying a bunch of methods, I find the method demonstrated by Paul
> Sellers (search youtube) works best for me. He grinds freehand, and
> creates a convex bevel. Easy to do but hard to describe. Essentially it
> is the analog equivalent to the digital microbevel. So quick and easy! I
> like it. Sorry Brent!

I am not going to get into a discussion of Paul Sellers and sharpening,
beyond saying that I not imagine anything worse than what he suggests
for plane irons.

Then I saw his saw sharpening video. An absolute horror.

I sent a couple of emails to the oldtools list explaining why I thought
his techniques were wrong-headed and I am not going to go into it again.

Anthony, did you build a jig like that discussed in my pages? Did you
get the 3M papers, ... ?

Did you really find you could not quickly put an excellent edge on a
plane iron?

Brent

[Anthony Carrico]

On 02/07/2014 01:17 PM, Brent Beach wrote:
> Anthony, did you build a jig like that discussed in my pages? Did you
> get the 3M papers, ... ?

Yes I did. Thank you. I have your recommended paper and supplies. I
built a few jigs for various tools to your specs, and I used your exact
method for some time:
YOUR METHOD WORKS GREAT
I know what sharp is from your pages, so I really don't want to
criticize your work!

But, the truth is that after I tried Paul's convex method my sharpening
jigs got so dusty that the shelf space was reclaimed. I still use india
stones for grinding, and 15u, 5u, 1u or 0.3u paper for honing, (not a
strop).

For me personally, it is more enjoyable to walk to the stones with any
blade in my hand and just sharpen. I can have the blade back on the wood
in the time it would take me to align the blade in a jig, and I get
wonderful results. What could possibly be horrible about that???

I think the magic here is that you have a surprising amount of control
when you roll the blade the way Paul does. On many blades, it is
difficult to hold a constant angle freehand, but it is easy to approach
the desired angle and stop when you get there. This also makes it easy
to change the angle a bit if desired. The result is you get the benefits
of microbevels, with the joy of a freehand method. Note that you don't
have to do the whole bevel with every grit, you can just focus on the
tip when honing. It is fun, and it works.

There are three methods: hollow grind (concave), micro bevel (linear
facets), and Paul's (convex). I've tried all three, and the convex
method clicked with me, it is fastest, easiest, and I get the best
results. Again, sorry to hijack the thread. Brent, your work is great, a
real service to the community, but I suspect you may have commented on
the convex method without giving it a try first
(http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=230945).

Too many words here. I am an engineer, so Brent's methods appeal to me.
On the other hand, Paul's method is dynamic, so it isn't as easy to
describe, but it is easy to feel what is going on. I tried it, and that
was the last time I touched my jigs.

--
Anthony Carrico

[Joe O]

This is an interesting discussion in that it all depends on what your priorities are.

I think that Brent represents a number of woodworkers who actually enjoy the sharpening process, and get a great deal of

pleasure from getting the sharpest edge possible while still being practical for woodworking and resharpening.

I think Anthony and Paul represent those who see sharpening as necessary, but who want to get back to planing wood as quickly as possible with a a serviceable edge.

For those in this camp. Paul's method may be fine; if you want the sharpest, consistent edge practical, there is no question in my mind that the

physics and geometry support Brent's methods.

What's your priority?

Joe O

[Anthony Carrico]

On 02/09/2014 10:38 AM, Joe O wrote:
> This is an interesting discussion in that it all depends on what your
> priorities are.
> I think that Brent represents a number of woodworkers who actually enjoy
> the sharpening process, and get a great deal of
> pleasure from getting the sharpest edge possible while still being
> practical for woodworking and resharpening.

Yes. Plus, Brent has gone the extra step of documenting what he has
discovered. I've learned a lot from his work.

> I think Anthony and Paul represent those who see sharpening as necessary,
> but who want to get back to planing wood as quickly as possible with
> a serviceable edge.

> For those in this camp. Paul's method may be fine; if you want the
> sharpest, consistent edge practical, there is no question in my mind
> that the
> physics and geometry support Brent's methods.

This is true; people have different goals, so it probably isn't worth
bickering about. All the same, I am really baffled by the strong
negative reaction in terms of physics and geometry.

The first objection is consistency, and I concede this point. Certainly
you will get more consistency from accurate jigs than freehand. However,
I'm not convinced that being slightly off your target angle is a big
deal: it is a somewhat arbitrary value anyway, and you can come pretty
close by keeping a reference triangle handy.

Myth: Convex bevel is bad geometry.
Reality: A microbevel is just an approximation of a convex bevel, so in
terms of geometry, why is convex bad if microbevel is good?

Myth: Convex bevel means the angle increases each sharpening.
Reality: Grinding a few swipes each time on a coarse stone prevents
this. Any sharpening system that focuses on the tip will eventually have
to grind off the rest of the bevel at some point.

Myth: Carbide is busted out by the process.
Reality: Nothing prevents you from avoiding the tip when grinding on
coarse stones, you actually have a lot of control when rocking on the
convex bevel.

The other objections that I've seen (which abrasives to use, the use of
a back bevel, etc.) are orthogonal to the issue.

I'll just sum up by saying that rocking on the bevel seems to be a
clever way to achieve the most of the benefits of microbevels in a
freehand method. I'm confused by the strong negative reactions out there
to a system that seems to work quiet well.

And once again: I really appreciate that people like Brent and Paul take
time to document their methods online.

--
Anthony Carrico