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Ian Clarke

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Jul 29, 2016, 10:27:45 PM7/29/16
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Hello all,
I would like to introduce my wife Andria and myself Ian to the group.
We have had our St Francis 50 since Oct 2012, and I am sure like all of you we love our 2009 St Francis 50 called "Zoom".
We have just completed a voyage from the Cheasapeake Bay in the USA to Queensland Australia by joining together the World Cruising Club Caribbean 1500 and ARC World cruises.
The boat of course performed exceptionally well. Several of the crew commented on how comfortable and safe they felt, even in heavier weather.
I perform all the maintenance and servicing on the boat myself and would consider myself pretty familiar with most of the systems on the boat.
I would be happy to contribute in any way I can to other members of the group.

Regards Ian Clarke

Randy Abernethy

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Jul 30, 2016, 1:32:56 PM7/30/16
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Thanks for checking in Ian! Great to hear about Zoom's travels and great to have your experience added to the resource pool.


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Paul Allinson

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Jul 30, 2016, 11:25:47 PM7/30/16
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Hi Ian,
Congrats on your transpacific - we have been following the fleet's progresss - our friends on Two Fish (Antares) participated.
We have recently sold our Antares 44 and are building SF-50 hull #21 "Grace" due to be splashed Dec/Jan.
We would like to participate in an active ownership dialog between SF-50 owners and appreciate your willingness to share .
I believe that Ren on Guinevere (hull #18) and Steve on AlyOsha (hull #17) and Fred/Chris on Sea Jay (hull #22) may be interested too.
Best regards
Paul and Maureen
"SV-Grace"

Steve Butz

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Aug 4, 2016, 2:43:42 AM8/4/16
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Ian,

Great to see this email and would love to participate with other Saint Francis 50 owners in a google group of some sort.

Our SF 50, Alyosha, is currently docked in Lisbon, Portugal after crossing the Atlantic this past summer. I am planning to head back to South Africa with the boat by the end of this year. (Lisbon-Canaries-Cape Verde-Fernando de Noronha-Capetown-Port Elizabeth)

We absolutely love the boat and admire the performance. (was particularly happy with how she performed in 20+ foot waves directly on the beam with a 5 second period!- no fun for crew)

I have struggled with only one piece of equipment- the watermaker- as I can't seem to get enough power to get the second pump going (I have successfully used the watermaker less than 20% of the time I have tried). 

I am very interested to hear from other SF 50 owners about their heavy weather tactics.

Steve Butz
s/v Alyosha

Paul Allinson

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Aug 5, 2016, 7:17:08 PM8/5/16
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Steve,
What type of watermaker do you have and what is the nature of your problem?
Paul

G P

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Aug 5, 2016, 9:58:39 PM8/5/16
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Steve,

I would suggest that Don Wilson, on Tackless II has a lot of knowledge

about watermakers. You might try sending him an email with the particulars

of your situation.

Pete




From: 'Paul Allinson' via Saint Francis Owners Group <saintf...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 6:17 PM
To: Saint Francis Owners Group
Subject: [Saint Francis OG] Re: New Member
 
Steve,
What type of watermaker do you have and what is the nature of your problem?
Paul

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Paul Allinson

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Aug 12, 2016, 11:46:23 AM8/12/16
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Hi. Steve,
I believe you may have a high amp draw problem on start-up.
Your watermaker draws 90A on initial start-up, the "EZ start" brings this down to 55A which may still be too high for your Inverter to handle.
Normal operating draw is 30A which is right at the limit of many inverters (do you have the Victron 3000 ?).
Have you tried starting the unit while your genset is on to provide the start-up power you need ?
I have sent you a pm with a few other questions to help troubleshooting effort.
Paul

Steve Butz

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Aug 12, 2016, 12:40:24 PM8/12/16
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Paul,

Thanks,

Yes, I have tried with my genset running (and everything else off!) and again only seem to be able to get it running a very small fraction of the time. (Which is actually frustrating, because it is making troubleshooting so much harder.)

I am gathering the answers for your pm

Steve
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G P

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Aug 12, 2016, 11:23:25 PM8/12/16
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Steve,


I am inferring some things from your two emails. You have an inverter that will draw

90 amps of +12 VDC when you start your watermaker. Make the math easy, 100 amps

at 12 VDC is 1200 watts. I had 2 inverters, my backup was 1500 watts, and should

have handled your case, but little else. My main 2500 watt Heart would not have

broken a sweat.


Still, 90 Amps is a lot to pipe around at 12 Volts, and needs some mighty hefty cable.

Check all the connections, that they are clean and bright.


Watch your battery volts when you attempt startup. Does it hold above 12 VDC, or

does it dip?


Finally, check into a marina for one night. Hook up to shore power. Now try starting your

watermaker using shore power. If it reliably starts fine, you have a problem getting

sufficient 120 VAC. On the other hand, if the problem persists, you have another problem.

Perhaps in high pressure pump. They need lube oil you know. How is your lube level?

At least, in the second case, you know you do not have a power generation problem.


Pete





From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Butz <st...@superstarfoundation.org>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 11:40 AM
To: saintf...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Saint Francis OG] Re: New Member
 
Paul,

Thanks,

Yes, I have tried with my genset running (and everything else off!) and again only seem to be able to get it running a very small fraction of the time. (Which is actually frustrating, because it is making troubleshooting so much harder.)

I am gathering the answers for your pm

Steve
> On Aug 12, 2016, at 4:46 PM, 'Paul Allinson' via Saint Francis Owners Group <saintf...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Hi. Steve,
> I believe you may have a high amp draw problem on start-up.
> Your watermaker draws 90A on initial start-up, the "EZ start" brings this down to 55A which may still be too high for your Inverter to handle.
> Normal operating draw is 30A which is right at the limit of many inverters (do you have the Victron 3000 ?).
> Have you tried starting the unit while your genset is on to provide the start-up power you need ?
> I have sent you a pm with a few other questions to help troubleshooting effort.
> Paul
>
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Paul Allinson

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Aug 12, 2016, 11:50:16 PM8/12/16
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Hi Pete,
I believe the Aqua Whisper DX, a 700 gpd unit is a 110v not 12v unit. The operating power consumption is 30A at 110v  would therefore be 3300 watts in normal operation - but would consume 90A (9000W) without EZ start and 53A (5800W) with EZ for 30 seconds when the secondary Hp motor powers up. Big power consumer.
I agree that checking supply cable and connection integrity is a good first step. 
Paul
   

Sent from my iPad

G P

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Aug 13, 2016, 11:13:42 AM8/13/16
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Paul,


Thanks for setting me straight. I couldn't imagine needing 90 A at 110 VAC. Residential

circuits are usually wired and "Breakered" at 15 A which is 1650 Watts. Even 220 I believe

is set up for 30 A or 6600 Watts. I am not sure how one would go about getting nearly

10 KW in a residence, let alone a boat. One could run a radio station on that kind

of power.


I guess another good step would be to ask, "Did it ever work". If the answer is yes, then

what changed? If the answer is no, a conversation with the installer would be in order.


I am sure one could find a 10 KW inverter, but big $$. The batteries to supply 10 KW @

12 VDC would need to supply... 834 Amps, with wiring sized to match. That is some big

big cable. A 10 KW genset would be much easier. Have you considered a home standby?


From these discussions, I believe the problem will likely be found in the way power is

provided, not in the watermaker itself.


Pete




From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Allinson <mr.paul....@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:50 PM

Paul Allinson

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Aug 13, 2016, 12:56:10 PM8/13/16
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Hi Pete,
I also was surprised to see the normal power consumption at 30A/110v from the Aqua Whisper website which as I mentioned is at the top end of the Victron 3000 inverter/charger which I think is fitted to the SF-50.
The start-up load of 90A with EZ start and 50A with EZ is very short-lived (think seconds) and because Steve's boat works on shore power (likely a 30A 110v supply) we can assume that his pathway and breaker system can tolerate the very short lived higher draw.
What is surprising is the fact that he can't consistently start the unit when running a 6KW genset which is nearly twice the capacity of a single 30A shore power cord.
I'm hopeful that he will find a loose connection somewhere in the power supply or HP pump starting control circuit. Cable sizing for this kind of draw (30A at 110v) is 8-10 gage. 
However, for those folks wanting to use a big power consumer like this while having redundancy (loss of genset) at sea, a potential solution is buying a second Victron 3000 and wiring it in parallel, this would allow the water maker to be operated while running the engines. A high output Balmar or Mastervolt alternator on each engine would also be helpful in this kind of situation.
The 4x200A 12v batteries would be rapidly depleted so running on batteries alone is not an option with these high draw rates.
Cheers
Paul

Sent from my iPad

G P

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Aug 13, 2016, 1:38:21 PM8/13/16
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Paul,


Sounds like you are on top of this. I would still like to know, did it work at one time and

quit, or has this always been a problem.


Pete




From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Allinson <mr.paul....@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:56 AM

d...@thetwocaptains.com

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Aug 13, 2016, 5:59:37 PM8/13/16
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 1:38:21 PM UTC-4, pete wrote:

Paul,


Sounds like you are on top of this. I would still like to know, did it work at one time and

quit, or has this always been a problem.


Pete

Steve:  Don Wilson here, from Tackless Too, St Francis 44.  I have been following the thread on your water maker dilemma.  Don't know much about the Aqua Whisper DX except what I read on their website. It does seem like it will need everything your 3000 watt inverter has to start the hp motor.  Should not be a problem on the generator but obviously, it is.  Beside the other suggestions from the guys, I would only add to make sure the system is "open" before you try to start.  My system is manual and I turn the pressure up after the motor is running.  Assume yours is automatic, but if you can manual over ride the pressure for the start, and all your connections and wires are good, then it should start.  Then you will  know it is a controller problem and not a power issue.  Second, this is my first "reply" on this forum and it might not even go where it is supposed to!  If so, sorry!
 
 

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Paul Allinson

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Aug 13, 2016, 9:26:10 PM8/13/16
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Hi. Forum admins,
Suggest we turn this thread into "Watermakers" so that others can add learnings.
Not sure how to do that - do others agree?
Paul


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Steve Butz

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Aug 14, 2016, 2:52:46 AM8/14/16
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Paul,

Yes, I agree (also not sure how to change the thread name...)

The suggestions have been very helpful and I am learning a ton with every response.

Thanks to all for the help.

(I am going to have to troubleshoot the issue in more depth towards the end of this month when wife and kids are back in the states...)

Steve

Ian Clarke

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Aug 14, 2016, 9:18:34 AM8/14/16
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Hi Steve, Ian Clarke from Zoom here. I have just got to my email and found your request for help. The others have given good feedback and ideas.
I did not see an answer to the question regarding did it ever work reliably.
I had a 110volt AC water maker on Zoom. It was a home built system by the previous owner using a "CAT" pump powered by 1.5HP (I think) 110V AC motor and worked well. Not sure of its rated output but would fill the port tank in 3-4 hours. It was wired(powered) directly from the genset, I.e. Not via the inverter. It would only run if the genset was running. It would not run from shore power.
I agree with the others running your unit with the power drain it has would be maxing out the standard Victron Energy 3000Watt inverter.

As the others have suggested, check all connections. Use a multimeter to check for voltage drops across connections, or a heat sensing device for any hot connections or cables. Check the water maker brine outlet is "open" so the HP pump has no restriction on startup. You should have no product water being produced, i.e. All water is going out the Brine outlet.
Another thought. On Zoom the 110V Aircon units are wired in such as way that they only run when 110Volt AC is available either via shore power or Genset. They do not run from the inverter.
If your water maker has never worked reliably from new, I would be asking the installer ( maybe it was you) how it is wired to its 110v source.
I have not checked the website of the Watermaker, but the others have and if it is drawing 30 Amps at 110v from your Victron 3000 inverter then I think that is too much for the inverter and you risk damage to it, but the fuzes should protect you.

Another thing to try is beg borrow or steal a clip on AMP meter and see how much the water maker is drawing. Maybe it's motor windings are faulty and it is drawing too much current and not doing any real work.

On Zoom to avoid having to be dependent on the genset for water I swapped out the 110v unit for a 12Volt unit. I put in an EchoTec unit, it only produces 13 gallons per hour which is a lot less than what I had before. However it did keep 5 people in fresh water from the USA to Australia. We did not shower every day however.
Please let us know how you get on solving this problem.
Regards Ian

Royce Reid

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Aug 15, 2016, 1:49:24 PM8/15/16
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hi steve , sorry slow getting back to you , been surfing in El Salvador with no connection. 


as for the water maker you do not have a water maker problem , you have sa power supply problem
the lack of output would indicate that the pump motor is turning too slowly , this could be low volts or more probable you are giving it 50 htz as opposed to 60htz
the generator can be adjusted if this is the problem
also i hope you are not running it through the invertor, only the very best invertors can supply a clean sine wave output and control the hertz good enough to run the pump
if any doubt just run a temporary power cable from the output of the generator to the ez start direct
then start it and check your voltages on and off load , it should be an easy fix. 😉

cheers




Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 4:40 PM
To: saintf...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Saint Francis OG] Re: New Member
 
Paul,

Thanks,

Yes, I have tried with my genset running (and everything else off!) and again only seem to be able to get it running a very small fraction of the time. (Which is actually frustrating, because it is making troubleshooting so much harder.)

I am gathering the answers for your pm

Steve
> On Aug 12, 2016, at 4:46 PM, 'Paul Allinson' via Saint Francis Owners Group <saintf...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Hi. Steve,
> I believe you may have a high amp draw problem on start-up.
> Your watermaker draws 90A on initial start-up, the "EZ start" brings this down to 55A which may still be too high for your Inverter to handle.
> Normal operating draw is 30A which is right at the limit of many inverters (do you have the Victron 3000 ?).
> Have you tried starting the unit while your genset is on to provide the start-up power you need ?
> I have sent you a pm with a few other questions to help troubleshooting effort.
> Paul
>
> --
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Royce Reid

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Sep 13, 2016, 11:43:23 AM9/13/16
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did you get it to work and if yes what was it?


R





From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Royce Reid <royc...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 5:49 PM
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