Water Makers : Watt's in your boat ?

[Paul Allinson]

Starting a new thread on Watermakers and power consumption and reliability. Please share your thoughts with our community.
On "Grace" SFM-5021 we are going to install twin Spectra 340Z 24v units which produce 340 gpd.
These are very low lower consumers (24v x 9A = 216 W each) for a total of 0.56 KW.
The system is designed to be powered from any source (solar, engines, genset) and because we have two identical units we can canabilize one for another if needed.
We have good experience (7 years) with our little Spectra 150 on our previous cat and are hopeful this bodes well for the future.
What systems are others using?
Paul

[Paul Allinson]

Clarification - each Spectra 340Z produces 340 gpd for a total of 680 gpd or 16 watts/gallon.
Paul

[Randy Abernethy]

I have a mixed opinion on Spectra. Certainly do not trust their approved installers. The guy they used in ft Lauderdale drilled the wm intake right behind a head outlet! On the SF all outlets are on one side of the rudder and all inlets are one the other and clearly marked. Really basic stuff.

We had the main board burn up in the Gallapagos due to poor installation and design (high current wiring on a post with no nylock or double nut and mounted on top of the continuously vibrating pressure pump). It caused a small fire. They charged us their full price plus shipping for a replacement board (few days out of 1yr warranty ).

Doing it again I would get a really simple wm. Probably an ac one that fills the tank in a few hours.  would consider village marine little wonder. Off the shelf parts. If the spectra main board fries you may have to rewire the Hp pump to use it. 

We still have our spectra but it is a love hate relationship. When it works it is very cool, but it doesn't just work.

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[Paul Allinson]

Thanks Randy,

Great advice on water intake location !  Our WM's are amidships and are considering intakes between the hulls, are heads/holding tank discharges on outboard side of hulls?

What voltage is your Spectra?

Paul

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[G P]

Paul,

On the SF-44, intakes are outboard, discharges inboard, except for the sinks in the head

and kitchen as I remember. The sinks discharge outboard.

Last post got me to thinking about starters on the 44. There are some things to know

acquired the hard way.

On my boat, the port engine became hard to start. It had the longest cable run to the

helm. Might also have been the switch. I built a small auxiliary control panel on a 5 x 5

piece of thin plywood, and bolted it to the top of the engine. It had spare "start" & "stop"

buttons, and a relay to take most of the load off of the start switch. I can post the

schematic if anyone is interested. It did occasionally make working on the engine easier,

but the throttles were still at the helm, which limited it's usefulness.

About starters: There is a 12 VDC electric motor that is the large cylinder bolted to the

bellhouse. When powered, it engages a ring gear on the flywheel, spinning the engine

and (hopefully) starting it. You all probably know this.

Above the motor is a smaller cylinder. This houses a solenoid attached to a heavy duty

electrical contactor that provides power to the motor. When + 12 VDC is applied to the

solenoid coil, the contactor is activated. There are two large lugs on the solenoid, the

top lug is + 12 VDC from the battery fused at 150 Amps. The bottom lug is attached to

the starter motor. The solenoid contact is the smaller tab on the solenoid housing with

a smaller wire running to the wire harness to the helm and ultimately to the start

button / switch. This is easiest to see on the port engine.

1. If, for any reason, your starter fails to engage, try shorting the solenoid contact (the

smaller tab) to the battery + 12 VDC (top lug). You should use something like a

screwdriver you don't care much about. Be warned, if the starter is good, it will spin

the engine causing it to move on its mounts significantly and probably scaring you,

even if you are prepared. It may be difficult to maintain electrical contact with the

engine motion. There will also be some sparking, but it is low voltage and harmless.

All you are doing with this is what the start switch does anyway. Caveat: be very

careful to not short the + 12 VDC lug to ground in the movement. This will cause some

serious sparking and probably blow your 150 A fuse. You do have a spare now, don't you?

2. When tightening the + 12 VDC nut on the lug, it is possible to turn the lug if you

over torque the nut. I don't know what this does internally to the solenoid (didn't

take it apart to see), but too much rotation and the contactor ceases to work. Mine

did.

I suggest drawing a vertical line on the end of the + 12 VDC lug with a black magic

marker. Now, when tightening the nut, if the line goes off - vertical, you are over

torquing the nut and risk destroying the contactor that starts the motor.

In an emergency, you could try shorting the two large lugs, but you will get

significant sparks and significant destruction to the tool you use.

Hope this helps,

Pete

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From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Allinson <mr.paul....@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:34 AM
To: saintf...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Saint Francis OG] Water Makers : Watt's in your boat ?

 

[Paul Allinson]

Thanks Pete,

We will be using the Yanmar JH series Common Rail engines now required by EPA.

They utilize Yanmar's electronic engine management system so quite a bit different from previous models. They're pretty new and only time will tell how how reliable they are.

There's a lot to be said for the straight forward mechanical systems to be sure :-(

I'm planning on carry a spare EVC "black box" controller.

Paul 

Sent from my iPad

[G P]

Paul,

I had my Yanmar 3-GM30 F engines re-built a few seasons ago. They had around

10K hours on them at the time, hardly adolescence for a Yanmar diesel. It was my

mistake, but it cost me a rod bearing. So repair was a necessity, not a luxury.

At the time I was offered to upgrade to the newer diesels, the $$ were not a

significant factor versus a re-build. I opted to re-build. The reason I chose to

re-build was, as you state, a lot more technology in the new engines. I was also

warned they were much more picky about fuel. Things like control cables,

exhaust, etc. had been moved on the newer engines, probably necessitating a

re-build of the helm as well. Finally, the 3-GM30 is very precisely matched to

the SD-20 saildrive. There is little over-engineering of the system. So even a

slightly more powerful engine risks over-driving the SD-20. I didn't want that.

Remember this if you re-prop. You cannot just slap any old prop that fits on and

hope for the best. You can overdrive the saildrive with too large a prop as well

and it will cause problems. On my boat, when I bought her, after a half day of

running on the engines, the saildrives would start to whine, getting progressively

louder the longer you ran them. I replaced the saildrives too when I had the engines

rebuilt. I had the props cut to the specs in the SD-20 manual at the Lauderdale prop

shop. Never had another problem with the engine - saildrive system after I got it

all put back together.

That all having been said, I drive a VW Jetta diesel. I don't think I would have

any problem going to sea with the German diesel technology. Love that little car.

Pete

---

From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Allinson <mr.paul....@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:20 PM

[Paul Allinson]

Hi Pete,

I think you made the best move - the new technology is going to be a challenge I think.

We also opted for shaft drives, which I've had good experience with.

We're tackling quite few new systems, I'll be asking for advice and experience as we go and in return promise to share the good, bad and ugly with the group.

Cheers

Paul

Sent from my iPad

[G P]

Paul,

Just a quick thought for you. My VW Jetta requires low sulfur diesel fuel.

What do your new-tech Yanmars require for fuel? If it is low sulfur,

what is the availability of that fuel in the areas you intend to take the

boat?

The old-tech Yanmars didn't care. Probably would burn pure sulfur

in a pinch. Your new-tech engines may be more picky.

Just a thought...

Pete

---

From: saintf...@googlegroups.com <saintf...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Allinson <mr.paul....@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 6:09 PM

[Paul Allinson]

Hi Pete,

The new Yanmars will tolerate highs have sulfur 0.5 but prefer 0.15%.

Due to NA regs the diesel sold over here is ultra low sulfur 0.05%. (See attached spec sheet).

So it's not an engine limit it's the EP again.

Water is a big deal - we're putting on twin Racors and will also have a tank polishing/recirculation system.

Paul

Sent from my iPad

[d...@thetwocaptains.com]

Paul:  I will throw my 2 cents in.  Our SF 44, Tackless Too ( formerly Obelix) came with a large Village Marine double membrane system with a 1 1/2 hp high pressure pump ( system was produced by another name but still VM)  Big draw back was running required 2 Honda 2000i s to get it started, as I do not have internal generator.  No way would the inverter , 2800 Xantrex, ever get it going.  I switched out the hp pump for a Cruise RO 1 hp pump, (VM does not offer one).  It will start and run on either 1 Honda 2000i or the inverter with  batteries up and one engine running.  Could still be a bit of a problem with the inverter as it is a modified sine wave  and most AC motors don't like that,. However, the motor starts, voltage,  amp draw (10 to10.5 ac) and temps remain good, so for the moment, I am staying with it. Output is between 32 and 42 gph depending on the water temp and salinity with maximum running pressure of 800 psi. I should also say here, because it is a manual system, that I have to make sure I do not push too much water through the  membranes or damage will occur.  Max. of 10% over  the RATED output, (mine are 38 inch) which would hold true  for any size membrane configuration. So there are times in in Florida and that I have to run at less than 800 psi.  I have also added a cross over line so that now the starboard tank can be filled direct.   This has to be done with a second two way valve so that at no time is the fresh water feed line ever "blocked".  This works well as Pete, the previous owner, had installed the membranes very high in the port forward bow locker, so the gravity flow, although long, still has a "negative " head pressure.( Line feeds very low into the starboard deck feed hose)

That being said, I am pretty much a die hard Spectra guy as I was a roving Tech Rep for them  for many years while we were in Mexico and the South Pacific.  Installation and education were ( and still are) the most important part of any water maker!  My biggest problem with Spectra is their costs but they are great water makers.  We started with the 180 c in 1998 (one 40 inch membrane and one 12 volt feed pump) and a year later I added the second feed pump, which in today's models is the Cape Horn.  7 or 13 gph depending on one or  two feed pumps, solar, engine or generator powered.  A word of caution here:  They call them 12 volt systems, but they need high 12v if not 13v to preform well and get maximum life out of the motors.  Mine was a manual system and I found very little to go wrong with it.  The new systems are mostly computerized and I have several friends that are very happy with their long term experience.  Keeping the voltage up (good clean connections), clean pre filters and constant production or regular flushing will help all makes and models  serve you well. (regardless of who built them!)

Don Wilson

[Paul Allinson]

Hi Don,
Many thanks for sharing, it's good to know you where a roving Tech Rep for Spectra. Maureen and I met a lady cruiser who was also a Spectra Rep in the Sea of Cortez a few years ago and she inspected our setup and didn't like the orientation of the Clark pump. Next day she came over and repiped it for us :-)
Since then I've had a good 7 years experience with my little 150 gpd unit and only had to change a conductivity probe and filters in all that time.
The dilemma I faced with new boat was do I go for a high capacity A/C powered pump which means running the genset or find another way.
We found the 340Z system which runs on 24v and 9 amps and decided to buy two instead of a larger 700 gpd AC powered unit.
Our boat will have significant solar power (1.8kw of which I'm expecting about 1kw to be useful).
We also have two high capacity alternators (24v / 110A) (5 KW total ) which feed a high capacity LiFePo 24v battery bank.
The goal is to make sufficient water from solar or while running the engines.
We will have genset backup but hoping not to need it.
The boat is in the build stage so I won't know how it turns out until 1Q17.
Again thanks for sharing - hopefully others will add to the thread so that we can cross-connect folks with similar interests, systems and needs.
Paul

[Ian Clarke]

Hi all, the water maker we have is an EchoTec 260-DML 12 volt, produces 13 Gal per hour at about 38 Amps. It is not as efficient as the Spectra units but it made an easy change over from the 110volt system I had. I already had the pre filters, pressure vessel, and feed pump from the existing 110volt system. It was relatively easy and much less expensive to just take out the 110volt CAT high pressure pump and replace it with the EchoTec unit.
Pros and cons of 12 volt and 110volt systems.
The 110volt AC system on Zoom was wired directly to the Genset, not via the inverter which meant we had to run the Genset to make water. This was one of the main reasons that I changed to the 12volt unit. The 12 volt unit is good for redundancy of power generation sources, as we had Solar, standard engine alternators, hydro generator, 200amp high output alternator, and Genset.
However the 12 volt system may not be the most efficient on fuel. Without a fuel flow meter I cannot accurately calculate it. If we were not sailing, or motoring then there is no power from alternators or hydro generator so you need to run the Genset to charge the batteries. The Genset I think is the least efficient on fuel to charge batteries. The output of the Vectron inverter battery charger is 90 Amps. It can be up to 120amps, but when following the instructions in the manual I could not get the dip switch settings and sequence to change it from the 90 amp default. If I ran the port engine where the hight output alternator was fitted It would charge at 180amps which would quickly bring the batteries from50% to say 65%. Trying to get higher levels of charge just wastes fuel because the battery I take slows right down. If we were not sailing or motoring and just using the Genset to charge the batteries, I would have to run the Genset for 3-4 hours. With the 110volt system 3-4 hours would almost fill the port hull tank, but with the 12 volt system 3-4 hours would not put a lot in the batteries because the generstor driven battery charger was only putting out 90 amps and the water maker was taking 38 of those. In 3-4 hours we would only make about 50 gallons of water a lot short of filling the port tank from empty.
Does anyone have any experience setting the output of the Victron Energy battery charger to output its max 120 amp rating. On the trip across the Pacific I wrote to Victron Energy support and did not even get a response. Now that I am in Australia I will contact a local supplier and see if I can get a better response.
Reliability of the EchoTec water maker so far is 100%.
Regards Ian

[Paul Allinson]

Hi Ian,
If your inverter/charger is the 12/3000/120 it looks like option #2 (50A supply 100% charge) should give you max charging from your genset.
Johannes Boonstra at Victron Holland is the ace Vitron guru who answers tech questions from around the world.
If your Oz tech can't help try emailing him at the address below.
jboo...@victronenergy.com
good luck
Paul

[Paul Allinson]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:24:37 AM UTC-7, Paul Allinson wrote:

Hi Ian,
If your inverter/charger is the 12/3000/120 it looks like option #2 (50A supply 100% charge) should give you max charging from your genset.

Johannes Boonstra at Victron Holland is the ace Victron guru who answers tech questions from around the world.

If your Oz tech can't help try emailing him at the address below.
jboo...@victronenergy.com
good luck
Paul

PS: Ian I added a page from the Victron manual showing bit switch settings (some versions didn't have the full set).

I also noticed that Victron de-rate the capacity by 25% when air temp is above 25C  (if so that would be 2250W Inv and 90A charging) - could that be a factor ?

[Ian Clarke]

Hello Paul, thanks for the suggestion and referral regarding the DIP switch settings.
Ian

[Soggy Paws]

Hi Paul, here's a completely different perspective... those Spectra watermakers are really nice units but they are pricey, and all that fancy electronics so you can "push a button and make water" eventually fails.  

We've come from the other end of price range by using a $350 bronze car wash pump, belted to one of our Yanmars, driving 2 20-gph membranes.  All the valving and testing is done manually, using pretty simple off-the-shelf products.  We assembled one on our last boat that made 40gph when we were running the engine, for about $1000.  My husband, Dave, made a presentation up on how it was done.  It's online at http://svsoggypaws.com/presentations.htm.  We used our homemade system for 8 years coming across the Pacific on our CSY 44, and it worked great.  Now installing the same kind of system on our (new to us) SF 44

Rich at Cruise RO Water sells a kit with all the primary pieces parts, including membranes and tubes, if you don't want to spend days hunting all over the internet for the parts.

The benefit of the DIY approach, besides low cost, is that you know intimately how your watermaker works, so servicing it is simple, and you KNOW where to buy service parts for it.

Watermakers are not rocket science... you are just pumping water through a VERY fine filter.  It gets a little more complicated when you add boost pumps, prefilters, and back flushing, but it's still just pumps and plumbing.

Using an engine driven system means you don't need to care too much about how efficient a pump it is, so you don't need a fancy spendy Clark pump.

I am sure your dual Spectra system is going to be fabulous, but for us the cost would represent a year or two's cruising budget!!

Sherry

[David Reeves]

Ahoy Soggy Paws!  Hi Sherry and Dave!

Your approach to watermakers is definitely the way I would go if I were in the market for a watermaker again.  Would love to hear how you accomplish belting to the small yanmar.  I have a larger 150amp small case alternator that we almost always run at half output (or less) that seems to be too much for the little yanmar.  Having run a 200 amp alternator at full load off a 56hp yanmar with no problems, it seems the smaller engines present a challenge.

We have used a spectra 380 (15gph dual pump 12v system) since 2002, moved to ZING in 2005.  Clearly the proprietary parts and their cost are an issue.  Availability and shipping time are a problem too.  We've come up with some alternative sources for commonly replaced parts and we have quite a stock too.  Our unit has no Spectra electronics.  Clearly most problems we've seen with other Spectra systems have been with the electronics.  Anyone with a Spectra should certainly know or learn how to disconnect the electronics and run the unit manually.  Of course that is much easier when you install manual valves.  Clearly the electronics cannot survive long in the salt water environment beside the watermaker.  I've heard that some of the electronics is now being encapsulated in epoxy which should help.  Electronics can certainly make many tasks much easier but extraordinary efforts must be made to protect it.  Our biggest issue has not been testing the salt content or the pressure...these only need to be checked when the unit is started and every hour or so...our issue is continually checking that we don't overflow our tanks.

I've often thought that with two spectra systems I could at least keep one working.  In all seriousness we've had pretty good luck overall.  I like the idea of 24v.  One of the most difficult problems for us was finding an intake location that didn't suck air when we were sailing faster.  Pretty much anywhere works at anchor.  I installed my unit in the bow forward of the tub but if I were doing it again I would put it aft where the intake is now and at least a little closer to the batteries for shorter wiring runs.  I'd also like to get the discharge away from the inside hatch because we have to close it to keep salt water from blowing in.  I definitely like the discharge on the inside of the hulls because it creates a nasty little hull stain.

We used to run the watermaker only when the engine(s) or generator were running.  Now that we run it from solar only, we run it whenever we have a sunny day and clean water...almost every day in the Bahamas.

Fair Winds,

Dave

ZING SF43

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[G P]

Dave,

Regarding the 30 HP Yanmar, there is a limit to the power one can take from

the front of the engine. I don't happen to remember what it is, but you can

check the manual for the actual number. This gets into the bearing design on

the engine, and the fact that there is not unlimited power available without

shortening the life of the engine.

I suspect you may be pushing the engine's limit on power. Alternators in the

range you are running are not usually single belt driven either.

I learned of this when I saw "Good Golly Miss Molly", a SF 44 that had been

retrofitted with a SCUBA tank charging system on the starboard Yanmar. I never

ran those engines, but I think that boat was really pushing the limit on

available power. It had both a big alternator and the dive compressor hung off

the little starboard Yanmar.

Pete

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Subject: Re: [Saint Francis OG] Re: Water Makers : Watt's in your boat ?

 

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[Paul Allinson]

Hi Sherry,

Thanks for sharing your DIY solution it sounds great.

Sharing each other's solutions to challenges is really helpful and I hope we can continue to build our group knowledge by sharing our learnings on other topics.

Paul

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