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Kevin Koym
Aug 29, 2008, 11:24:43 PM8/29/08
to refresh...@googlegroups.com, Kevin Koym
Refresh,
I am supporting a friend in making a direction choice on frameworks. He is starting from a near-clean start... Questions... which of the following framework (or another) do you like the best for database project that will grow into the future that requires good object design, scalability, and needs to be easy for him and his team to learn?
I have quickly been looking at:
- Django (Python)
- Ruby on Rails
- Ruby and MERB
Other suggestions?
This programmer has just been waving his hands over recent years... so I am looking for some strong opinions. I want to have a good ORM (object to relational too) and a good templating system. I want the package to be non-Microsoft open source, with decent licensing (BSD or Apache style).
Your thoughts appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin
--
Kevin Koym
kevin...@enterpriseteaming.com
+1.512.698.9328 mobile
Enterprise Teaming, LLC
http://www.enterpriseteaming.com
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)
I am supporting a friend in making a direction choice on frameworks. He is starting from a near-clean start... Questions... which of the following framework (or another) do you like the best for database project that will grow into the future that requires good object design, scalability, and needs to be easy for him and his team to learn?
I have quickly been looking at:
- Django (Python)
- Ruby on Rails
- Ruby and MERB
Other suggestions?
This programmer has just been waving his hands over recent years... so I am looking for some strong opinions. I want to have a good ORM (object to relational too) and a good templating system. I want the package to be non-Microsoft open source, with decent licensing (BSD or Apache style).
Your thoughts appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin
--
Kevin Koym
kevin...@enterpriseteaming.com
+1.512.698.9328 mobile
Enterprise Teaming, LLC
http://www.enterpriseteaming.com
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)
Jon Loyens
Aug 30, 2008, 12:24:49 PM8/30/08
to Refresh Austin
Hi Kevin,
As you know I'm a big Django fan... Here's a link to the notes and
presentation I gave to refresh (including a short comparison to Ruby
on Rails):
http://www.refreshaustin.org/2008/august-meeting-writing-for-the-web-and-introduction-to-django/
Here's another link (which I've been meaning to post to the list
anyway) which is an interesting comparison where two proficient
programmers coded the same project on Rails and Django... compares
time spent and lines of code written, style, etc:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison
Jon Loyens
http://www.thinktiv.com
On Aug 29, 10:24 pm, "Kevin Koym" <kevin.k...@enterpriseteaming.com>
wrote:
> +1.512.698.9328 mobile
>
> Enterprise Teaming, LLChttp://www.enterpriseteaming.com
As you know I'm a big Django fan... Here's a link to the notes and
presentation I gave to refresh (including a short comparison to Ruby
on Rails):
http://www.refreshaustin.org/2008/august-meeting-writing-for-the-web-and-introduction-to-django/
Here's another link (which I've been meaning to post to the list
anyway) which is an interesting comparison where two proficient
programmers coded the same project on Rails and Django... compares
time spent and lines of code written, style, etc:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison
Jon Loyens
http://www.thinktiv.com
On Aug 29, 10:24 pm, "Kevin Koym" <kevin.k...@enterpriseteaming.com>
wrote:
> Refresh,
> I am supporting a friend in making a direction choice on frameworks. He is
> starting from a near-clean start... Questions... which of the following
> framework (or another) do you like the best for database project that will
> grow into the future that requires good object design, scalability, and
> needs to be easy for him and his team to learn?
>
> I have quickly been looking at:
>
> - Django (Python)
> - Ruby on Rails
> - Ruby and MERB
>
> Other suggestions?
> This programmer has just been waving his hands over recent years... so I am
> looking for some strong opinions. I want to have a good ORM (object to
> relational too) and a good templating system. I want the package to be
> non-Microsoft open source, with decent licensing (BSD or Apache style).
>
> Your thoughts appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
> --
> Kevin Koym
> kevin.k...@enterpriseteaming.com
> I am supporting a friend in making a direction choice on frameworks. He is
> starting from a near-clean start... Questions... which of the following
> framework (or another) do you like the best for database project that will
> grow into the future that requires good object design, scalability, and
> needs to be easy for him and his team to learn?
>
> I have quickly been looking at:
>
> - Django (Python)
> - Ruby on Rails
> - Ruby and MERB
>
> Other suggestions?
> This programmer has just been waving his hands over recent years... so I am
> looking for some strong opinions. I want to have a good ORM (object to
> relational too) and a good templating system. I want the package to be
> non-Microsoft open source, with decent licensing (BSD or Apache style).
>
> Your thoughts appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
> --
> Kevin Koym
> +1.512.698.9328 mobile
>
> Enterprise Teaming, LLChttp://www.enterpriseteaming.com
Y A
Sep 1, 2008, 12:09:47 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
Check out Zend Framework: framework.zend.com
Very mature PHP framework that is nice in its openess and scalability, huge development core, open-source and backed by Zend.
I would rule out Rails if you are looking on scaling from the issues I heard they were having performance wise.
Of course there Struts in Java, python seems able to scale well too.
Yoed
Very mature PHP framework that is nice in its openess and scalability, huge development core, open-source and backed by Zend.
I would rule out Rails if you are looking on scaling from the issues I heard they were having performance wise.
Of course there Struts in Java, python seems able to scale well too.
Yoed
David Humphreys
Sep 1, 2008, 12:42:46 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
Where are you getting your information about scaling with Rails? Everything I've heard and seen suggests that it scales as well as any other scripting language framework.
Jon Lebkowsky
Sep 1, 2008, 1:19:07 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
Rails had a reputation for being hard to scale, but as it matures I think it's improved. The Rails experts on the list can probably speak to that at length.
Kevin, an accomplished developer in our network swears by the PHP framework, Symfony. Just another to check out: http://www.symfony-project.org/
We've also done some projects with ModX, which is php-based and characterized as a "content management framework."
~ Jon
Kevin, an accomplished developer in our network swears by the PHP framework, Symfony. Just another to check out: http://www.symfony-project.org/
We've also done some projects with ModX, which is php-based and characterized as a "content management framework."
~ Jon
--
Jon Lebkowsky
512 762-6547
AIM, Skype: jonlzebub
Twitter: jonl
Company: http://socialwebstrategies.com
Blog: http://weblogsky.com
Jon Lebkowsky
512 762-6547
AIM, Skype: jonlzebub
Twitter: jonl
Company: http://socialwebstrategies.com
Blog: http://weblogsky.com
David Humphreys
Sep 1, 2008, 1:27:36 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
I think your coder might be right with his hand-waving.
Both Rails and Django are robust, well-supported frameworks that have
a lot of smart people working with them, pushing them, and improving
them every day. For about 95% of your use cases, they're probably
going to come up roughly square. (To your points, both have solid ORM
and templating systems. They both have similar built-in templating
systems with a choice to use others.) The question is: which language
do you want to use? If you're a project manager or designer, you
probably don't care -- unless you have a lot of experience with a
system. And then it boils down to what coders you're going to have
access to, and what they want to use.
Personally, I like Ruby as a programming language -- it's a great
language with a lot of excellent OOP features -- but I've worked with
Django enough to see the beauty there, too.
My advice would be to let the coding team use which framework they're
most excited about using. You'll likely get a better product, simply
because they'll be interested in putting in the extra time.
If you're not sure you're going to have this production team for, say,
the next 9 months, it might make sense to go with Django, simply
because there are more PHP coders in the world right now.
MERB is less mature, but looks quite promising. I would consider using
that if your developers were very excited about using it, and could
explain why they wanted to use it. ("It's cool and new," isn't enough.
"It's thread-safe and has the same great ORM that Rails does, " might
be.)
Right now, choosing between Django and Rails is a lot like choosing
your carpenter based on the brand of tools they use. ("But TruValue
nails don't scale!") Hire good developers, and let the decision for that
rest in the hands of the people who have to make your site go.
--
David Humphreys
da...@dbhumphreys.com
http://dbhumphreys.com
St. Joe's Choir
http://www.myspace.com/stjoeschoir
http://stjoeschoir.com
Mark Stephan
Sep 1, 2008, 5:49:05 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
You said, " it might make sense to go with Django, simply because there are more PHP coders in the world right now." Django is in Python, not Php. Are you then saying there are more Python developers in the world than Ruby?
Austin, Texas
Just wanted to give a correction there. :-)
----------
Managing Partner / Founder
Austin, Texas
Austin Office: +01-512-961-6059
Email: mste...@calcedon.com
IM: markestephan (Skype)
IM: markes...@yahoo.com (MSN/YAHOO)
IM: markestephan (AIM)
IM: markes...@gmail.com (Gtalk)
IM: 63071782 (ICQ)
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David Humphreys
Sep 1, 2008, 8:14:58 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com, Refresh...@googlegroups.com
Right, right. Brain freeze.
I'd say there are more Django developers than Rails developers in the US, but that's a guess.
You said, " it might make sense to go with Django, simply because there are more PHP coders in the world right now." Django is in Python, not Php. Are you then saying there are more Python developers in the world than Ruby?Just wanted to give a correction there. :-)
----------Managing Partner / Founder
<Calcedon logo sig.jpg>
[ More Info ]
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Refresh-Austin
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l>
Jon Loyens
Sep 1, 2008, 8:35:41 PM9/1/08
to Refresh Austin
Just going on an informal, in-my-head, survey of Refresh Austin
meetings and activity on the Rails and Django google groups, I'd say
there's a lot more Rails developers than Django developers. Probably
a 3 Django to 7 Rails devs ratio, I'd guess. Django has caught on
more slowly but I could see a lot more people migrating to it as it
reaches "flavor of the month" status (thanks to Google getting behind
it with AppEngine, etc...) and moves towards it's 1.0 release.
Now if you talk about Python vs. Ruby devs in the US, you might be
right... probably more pure Python people (or people who have done
Python in schools since it's a popular teaching language here).
Honestly, I kind of like the fact that the Django community is a
little smaller. It's open to new-comers but you can recognize and
clearly discriminate who knows what they're talking about and who
doesn't. It's still big enough though that when you post a bug it gets
fixed quickly (I posted a Django bug this weekend and it was fixed and
in the svn trunk within 24 hrs).
wrt. the scaling issues people are referring to with Rails... I don't
necessarily buy it. I think it's somewhat bad press due to the issues
that Twitter has had (which is far and away the most popular Rails
site going). That said, Python based frameworks like django are a
little easier to deploy in a scalable way due to the good support in
the LAMP stack with mod_python, wsgi, etc... With Rails apps you get
mongrel clusters etc. At the end of the day though, if someone writes
a crappy app and then deploys it in a crappy way, it ain't gonna scale
no matter what.
Jon.
On Sep 1, 7:14 pm, David Humphreys <dbhumphr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, right. Brain freeze.
>
> I'd say there are more Django developers than Rails developers in the
> US, but that's a guess.
>
> David Humphreys
> d...@dbhumphreys.com
> Brevity by iPhone.
>
> > IM: markestephan (Skype)
> > IM: markestep...@yahoo.com (MSN/YAHOO)
> > IM: markestephan (AIM)
> > IM: markestep...@gmail.com (Gtalk)
> >> d...@dbhumphreys.com
meetings and activity on the Rails and Django google groups, I'd say
there's a lot more Rails developers than Django developers. Probably
a 3 Django to 7 Rails devs ratio, I'd guess. Django has caught on
more slowly but I could see a lot more people migrating to it as it
reaches "flavor of the month" status (thanks to Google getting behind
it with AppEngine, etc...) and moves towards it's 1.0 release.
Now if you talk about Python vs. Ruby devs in the US, you might be
right... probably more pure Python people (or people who have done
Python in schools since it's a popular teaching language here).
Honestly, I kind of like the fact that the Django community is a
little smaller. It's open to new-comers but you can recognize and
clearly discriminate who knows what they're talking about and who
doesn't. It's still big enough though that when you post a bug it gets
fixed quickly (I posted a Django bug this weekend and it was fixed and
in the svn trunk within 24 hrs).
wrt. the scaling issues people are referring to with Rails... I don't
necessarily buy it. I think it's somewhat bad press due to the issues
that Twitter has had (which is far and away the most popular Rails
site going). That said, Python based frameworks like django are a
little easier to deploy in a scalable way due to the good support in
the LAMP stack with mod_python, wsgi, etc... With Rails apps you get
mongrel clusters etc. At the end of the day though, if someone writes
a crappy app and then deploys it in a crappy way, it ain't gonna scale
no matter what.
Jon.
On Sep 1, 7:14 pm, David Humphreys <dbhumphr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, right. Brain freeze.
>
> I'd say there are more Django developers than Rails developers in the
> US, but that's a guess.
>
> David Humphreys
> Brevity by iPhone.
>
> On Sep 1, 2008, at 4:49 PM, Mark Stephan <mstep...@calcedon.com> wrote:
>
> > You said, " it might make sense to go with Django, simply because
> > there are more PHP coders in the world right now." Django is in
> > Python, not Php. Are you then saying there are more Python
> > developers in the world than Ruby?
>
> > Just wanted to give a correction there. :-)
>
> > ----------
>
> > Managing Partner / Founder
>
> > <Calcedon logo sig.jpg>
>
> > Austin, Texas
>
> > Http://www.calcedon.com
>
> > Austin Office: +01-512-961-6059
>
> > Email: mstep...@calcedon.com
> On Sep 1, 2008, at 4:49 PM, Mark Stephan <mstep...@calcedon.com> wrote:
>
> > You said, " it might make sense to go with Django, simply because
> > there are more PHP coders in the world right now." Django is in
> > Python, not Php. Are you then saying there are more Python
> > developers in the world than Ruby?
>
> > Just wanted to give a correction there. :-)
>
> > ----------
>
> > Managing Partner / Founder
>
> > <Calcedon logo sig.jpg>
>
> > Austin, Texas
>
> > Http://www.calcedon.com
>
> > Austin Office: +01-512-961-6059
>
>
> > IM: markestephan (Skype)
> > IM: markestep...@yahoo.com (MSN/YAHOO)
> > IM: markestephan (AIM)
> > IM: markestep...@gmail.com (Gtalk)
Kevin Koym
Sep 1, 2008, 9:56:00 PM9/1/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
thanks to all for the thoughtful discussion. i appreciate the insight.
Kevin
Kevin
Y A
Sep 2, 2008, 1:33:56 PM9/2/08
to Refresh...@googlegroups.com
Initally I recall the main issue was with the lighthttp and that rails could not run (or was very hard to configure to run) on apache.
This might have been corrected.
But a search on google on "rails performance" hints that this may still indeed be a large factor in addition to the underlying performance of the language itself:
http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/Framework+Performance
http://litespeedtech.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=2114
http://antoniocangiano.com/2007/02/10/top-10-ruby-on-rails-performance-tips/
These might offer you more clear insight into any issues as they might pertain to you. I just know this was an issue. It makes sense to me - the easier and freer a syntax of a language, the cost will come from performance. In addition anytime you add a large framework you decrease speed especially if it is not a compiled language.
It all boils down to, I guess, performance vs. convenience.
Yoed
This might have been corrected.
But a search on google on "rails performance" hints that this may still indeed be a large factor in addition to the underlying performance of the language itself:
http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/Framework+Performance
http://litespeedtech.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=2114
http://antoniocangiano.com/2007/02/10/top-10-ruby-on-rails-performance-tips/
These might offer you more clear insight into any issues as they might pertain to you. I just know this was an issue. It makes sense to me - the easier and freer a syntax of a language, the cost will come from performance. In addition anytime you add a large framework you decrease speed especially if it is not a compiled language.
It all boils down to, I guess, performance vs. convenience.
Yoed
On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Humphreys <dbhum...@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrew Dupont
Sep 3, 2008, 8:38:05 PM9/3/08
to Refresh Austin
Rails is harder to scale than, say, Django or PHP. Somewhat harder.
But not enough to make it a non-starter, and definitely not enough for
you to worry about it until you get popular.
In other news, I'd say there are definitely more Rails developers than
Django developers, but there are definitely more Python developers
than Ruby developers (if you don't count anyone who uses either one
exclusively for its web framework). This means that Python is more
mature than Ruby in many ways (better standard library, better Unicode
support, more performant).
That said, people who choose between Ruby and Python typically
consider which one "feels" better. I use Ruby because it fits my head
and Python doesn't. For others it's the exact opposite.
So my advice to Kevin, Kevin's friend, and anyone else would be to try
them both out, see which of the two languages you like better, and
make your decision accordingly.
Cheers,
Andrew
On Sep 2, 12:33 pm, "Y A" <yoeda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Initally I recall the main issue was with the lighthttp and that rails could
> not run (or was very hard to configure to run) on apache.
> This might have been corrected.
> But a search on google on "rails performance" hints that this may still
> indeed be a large factor in addition to the underlying performance of the
> language itself:
>
> http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/Framework+Performancehttp://litespeedtech.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=2114http://antoniocangiano.com/2007/02/10/top-10-ruby-on-rails-performanc...
> > Brevity by iPhone.
> >>http://www.refreshaustin.org/2008/august-meeting-writing-for-the-web-...
> >> > Enterprise Teaming, LLChttp:// <http://www.enterpriseteaming.com>
> >>www.enterpriseteaming.com
But not enough to make it a non-starter, and definitely not enough for
you to worry about it until you get popular.
In other news, I'd say there are definitely more Rails developers than
Django developers, but there are definitely more Python developers
than Ruby developers (if you don't count anyone who uses either one
exclusively for its web framework). This means that Python is more
mature than Ruby in many ways (better standard library, better Unicode
support, more performant).
That said, people who choose between Ruby and Python typically
consider which one "feels" better. I use Ruby because it fits my head
and Python doesn't. For others it's the exact opposite.
So my advice to Kevin, Kevin's friend, and anyone else would be to try
them both out, see which of the two languages you like better, and
make your decision accordingly.
Cheers,
Andrew
On Sep 2, 12:33 pm, "Y A" <yoeda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Initally I recall the main issue was with the lighthttp and that rails could
> not run (or was very hard to configure to run) on apache.
> This might have been corrected.
> But a search on google on "rails performance" hints that this may still
> indeed be a large factor in addition to the underlying performance of the
> language itself:
>
>
> These might offer you more clear insight into any issues as they might
> pertain to you. I just know this was an issue. It makes sense to me - the
> easier and freer a syntax of a language, the cost will come from
> performance. In addition anytime you add a large framework you decrease
> speed especially if it is not a compiled language.
>
> It all boils down to, I guess, performance vs. convenience.
>
> Yoed
>
> These might offer you more clear insight into any issues as they might
> pertain to you. I just know this was an issue. It makes sense to me - the
> easier and freer a syntax of a language, the cost will come from
> performance. In addition anytime you add a large framework you decrease
> speed especially if it is not a compiled language.
>
> It all boils down to, I guess, performance vs. convenience.
>
> Yoed
>
> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Humphreys <dbhumphr...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Where are you getting your information about scaling with Rails? Everything
> > I've heard and seen suggests that it scales as well as any other scripting
> > language framework.
>
> > David Humphreysd...@dbhumphreys.com
>
> > Where are you getting your information about scaling with Rails? Everything
> > I've heard and seen suggests that it scales as well as any other scripting
> > language framework.
>
> > Brevity by iPhone.
>
> > On Sep 1, 2008, at 11:09 AM, "Y A" <yoeda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Check out Zend Framework: framework.zend.com
> > Very mature PHP framework that is nice in its openess and scalability, huge
> > development core, open-source and backed by Zend.
> > I would rule out Rails if you are looking on scaling from the issues I
> > heard they were having performance wise.
>
> > Of course there Struts in Java, python seems able to scale well too.
>
> > Yoed
>
> > On Sep 1, 2008, at 11:09 AM, "Y A" <yoeda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Check out Zend Framework: framework.zend.com
> > Very mature PHP framework that is nice in its openess and scalability, huge
> > development core, open-source and backed by Zend.
> > I would rule out Rails if you are looking on scaling from the issues I
> > heard they were having performance wise.
>
> > Of course there Struts in Java, python seems able to scale well too.
>
> > Yoed
>
> > On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Jon Loyens < <jonloy...@gmail.com>
> > jonloy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi Kevin,
>
> >> As you know I'm a big Django fan... Here's a link to the notes and
> >> presentation I gave to refresh (including a short comparison to Ruby
> >> on Rails):
>
> >> <http://www.refreshaustin.org/2008/august-meeting-writing-for-the-web-...>
> > jonloy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi Kevin,
>
> >> As you know I'm a big Django fan... Here's a link to the notes and
> >> presentation I gave to refresh (including a short comparison to Ruby
> >> on Rails):
>
> >>http://www.refreshaustin.org/2008/august-meeting-writing-for-the-web-...
>
> >> Here's another link (which I've been meaning to post to the list
> >> anyway) which is an interesting comparison where two proficient
> >> programmers coded the same project on Rails and Django... compares
> >> time spent and lines of code written, style, etc:
>
> >> <http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison>
> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison
>
> >> Jon Loyens
> >> <http://www.thinktiv.com>http://www.thinktiv.com
> >> Here's another link (which I've been meaning to post to the list
> >> anyway) which is an interesting comparison where two proficient
> >> programmers coded the same project on Rails and Django... compares
> >> time spent and lines of code written, style, etc:
>
> >> <http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison>
> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/121814/RailsDjango-Comparison
>
> >> Jon Loyens
> >>www.enterpriseteaming.com
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