Harmonic implications of the dhromos
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mene...@aol.com
Apr 14, 2008, 3:32:40 PM4/14/08
to Rebe...@googlegroups.com
Tony Tambouras,
I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the application of Western triadic harmony to Rebetika. Everything you say regarding the complications and pitfalls are true. It is fascinating to listen to Greek musicians who are immersed in the monophonic modal view of the dhromoi struggle to hear harmonically/vertically rather that strictly melodically/horizontally. Like you I grew up in Western music and came to Greek music as a performer in my teens. I have played with many musicians, and have observed that quite a few, particularly the new crop of synth players, are highly skilled melodically but struggle to hear the harmonic implications of the dhromoi. I don't fault them. It clearly shows the melodic priority of the music. Given all the harmonic possibilities implied by the dhromoi--what ethnomusicologists called latent harmony--applying chords to these pieces becomes a contextually-driven aesthetic decision with no strict rules on correctness. A fascinating topic for analysis, don't you think? Let's do a paper!
As for Minore tou Deke, I hear it slightly differently than you do. At approximately 1:57 Halikias presents e as a tonal center implying a dominant chord--A, but Michaliadhis plays a subdominant G minor. Halikias adjusts in response and moves up to g as a tonal center. When Halikias introduces c as a tonal center at 2:17 Michaliadhis does indeed go to a correctly played F chord, first position, but has trouble playing it beginning on the second arpeggio as he includes a Bb in the chord, presumably with his pinky, a common error with guitarists inexperienced in playing the F major chord. Later he seems to struggle with the same misplayed F chord, not, apparently, because he is uncertain about using it but rather, to my ears, because he has difficulty playing it correctly. Also I don't detect him playing either an A7 chord or a diminished chord anywhere in the tune. I only hear Dm, Gm and A. And I agree with you that his playing is for the most part very sensitive to Halikias' melody.
Best wishes,
Michael G. Kaloyanides
University of New Haven
I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the application of Western triadic harmony to Rebetika. Everything you say regarding the complications and pitfalls are true. It is fascinating to listen to Greek musicians who are immersed in the monophonic modal view of the dhromoi struggle to hear harmonically/vertically rather that strictly melodically/horizontally. Like you I grew up in Western music and came to Greek music as a performer in my teens. I have played with many musicians, and have observed that quite a few, particularly the new crop of synth players, are highly skilled melodically but struggle to hear the harmonic implications of the dhromoi. I don't fault them. It clearly shows the melodic priority of the music. Given all the harmonic possibilities implied by the dhromoi--what ethnomusicologists called latent harmony--applying chords to these pieces becomes a contextually-driven aesthetic decision with no strict rules on correctness. A fascinating topic for analysis, don't you think? Let's do a paper!
As for Minore tou Deke, I hear it slightly differently than you do. At approximately 1:57 Halikias presents e as a tonal center implying a dominant chord--A, but Michaliadhis plays a subdominant G minor. Halikias adjusts in response and moves up to g as a tonal center. When Halikias introduces c as a tonal center at 2:17 Michaliadhis does indeed go to a correctly played F chord, first position, but has trouble playing it beginning on the second arpeggio as he includes a Bb in the chord, presumably with his pinky, a common error with guitarists inexperienced in playing the F major chord. Later he seems to struggle with the same misplayed F chord, not, apparently, because he is uncertain about using it but rather, to my ears, because he has difficulty playing it correctly. Also I don't detect him playing either an A7 chord or a diminished chord anywhere in the tune. I only hear Dm, Gm and A. And I agree with you that his playing is for the most part very sensitive to Halikias' melody.
Best wishes,
Michael G. Kaloyanides
University of New Haven
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Nikos A. Politis
Apr 14, 2008, 5:15:18 PM4/14/08
to Rebetika
I 'd like to know what Tony Tamboura's analysis is like!
> I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the application of Western triadic harmony to Rebetika. Everything you say regarding the complications and pitfalls are true. It is fascinating to listen to Greek musicians who are immersed in the monophonic modal view of the dhromoi struggle to hear harmonically/vertically rather that strictly melodically/horizontally. Like you? I grew up in Western music and came to Greek music as a performer in my teens.? I have played with many musicians, and have observed that quite a few, particularly the new crop of synth players, are highly skilled melodically but struggle to hear the harmonic implications of the? dhromoi. I don't fault them. It clearly shows the melodic priority of the music. Given all the? harmonic possibilities implied? by? the? dhromoi--what ethnomusicologists called latent harmony--applying chords? to? these pieces becomes a contextually-driven aesthetic decision with no strict rules on correctness. A fascinating topic for analysis, don't you think? Let's do a paper!
> I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the application of Western triadic harmony to Rebetika. Everything you say regarding the complications and pitfalls are true. It is fascinating to listen to Greek musicians who are immersed in the monophonic modal view of the dhromoi struggle to hear harmonically/vertically rather that strictly melodically/horizontally. Like you? I grew up in Western music and came to Greek music as a performer in my teens.? I have played with many musicians, and have observed that quite a few, particularly the new crop of synth players, are highly skilled melodically but struggle to hear the harmonic implications of the? dhromoi. I don't fault them. It clearly shows the melodic priority of the music. Given all the? harmonic possibilities implied? by? the? dhromoi--what ethnomusicologists called latent harmony--applying chords? to? these pieces becomes a contextually-driven aesthetic decision with no strict rules on correctness. A fascinating topic for analysis, don't you think? Let's do a paper!
tambouras
Apr 14, 2008, 7:02:56 PM4/14/08
to Rebetika
Menelaos has started a new thread which actually responds to what I
wrote on Sunday as a lengthy reply to Kamkar's question about
harmonising Mavra Matia Mavra Frydhia, in a very recent thread.
I do thank you Michael for sharpening my ears as to the chords
actually played on the Minore - I quite agree that there's no seventh
or diminished, although such harmonies perhaps result from the
combined instruments now and then? I agree that the guitarist does
sometimes play a correct F chord, although as a guitarist I don't
quite get your point about the F chord and the pinky and the B flat -
Halikias' guitarist seems only to use the first four strings for the F
chord, which shouldn't have been technically demanding.
When the guitarist plays a G minor to Halikias' E, what is created
between the instruments is the notes of a G minor chord with an added
6th, instead of the A major chord that would be the simplest, but
perhaps not the best, response. Whether it's just because I've
listened to this 'mistake' for 33 years or not, I now find the G minor
a very musical solution; the end result is that it seems more to
anticipate than to force the movement of the bouzouki from E to G. By
maintaining a G minor environment for a longer period, rather than
responding with a more rapid sequence of harmonies, the guitar harmony
supports the sense of tranquillity which envelops the taxim.
> > University of New Haven- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
wrote on Sunday as a lengthy reply to Kamkar's question about
harmonising Mavra Matia Mavra Frydhia, in a very recent thread.
I do thank you Michael for sharpening my ears as to the chords
actually played on the Minore - I quite agree that there's no seventh
or diminished, although such harmonies perhaps result from the
combined instruments now and then? I agree that the guitarist does
sometimes play a correct F chord, although as a guitarist I don't
quite get your point about the F chord and the pinky and the B flat -
Halikias' guitarist seems only to use the first four strings for the F
chord, which shouldn't have been technically demanding.
When the guitarist plays a G minor to Halikias' E, what is created
between the instruments is the notes of a G minor chord with an added
6th, instead of the A major chord that would be the simplest, but
perhaps not the best, response. Whether it's just because I've
listened to this 'mistake' for 33 years or not, I now find the G minor
a very musical solution; the end result is that it seems more to
anticipate than to force the movement of the bouzouki from E to G. By
maintaining a G minor environment for a longer period, rather than
responding with a more rapid sequence of harmonies, the guitar harmony
supports the sense of tranquillity which envelops the taxim.
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Nikos A. Politis
Apr 15, 2008, 4:32:06 PM4/15/08
to Rebetika
Well, I had missed all this conversation (after all, the forum
structure of google is not the best...).
Excellent approach by all three of you, Tony, Dave and Michael. If we
could find the time, we should also examine all preceding Smyrnaiiko
minore recordings to see whether Chalikias arrives to his modulations
in his own right or by listening carefully to the "teachers". But
modulation from D to E is very common, even with later Markos'
recordings I very often have to switch from a D tonic center to E (or
vice versa). Same applies for G, of course. But it is interesting
that, after the long Chalikias taxim, the melody then turns to
nihavent, forgetting the G in favour of G sharp. This has already
been announced very clearly during the taxim, when introducing a
phrase beginning with A / Gsharp that leads us into nihavent,
something that almost all interpreters of Smyrnaiiko minore have also
favoured.
And an advise to Tony, as a lute player: if you switch to politiko
laouto (ADAD) you will not be able to play triadic chords, even if you
wanted to. So the problem with dissonance will never come up!
Instead, you would be inclined to apply bass lines, as Dave already
suggests!
structure of google is not the best...).
Excellent approach by all three of you, Tony, Dave and Michael. If we
could find the time, we should also examine all preceding Smyrnaiiko
minore recordings to see whether Chalikias arrives to his modulations
in his own right or by listening carefully to the "teachers". But
modulation from D to E is very common, even with later Markos'
recordings I very often have to switch from a D tonic center to E (or
vice versa). Same applies for G, of course. But it is interesting
that, after the long Chalikias taxim, the melody then turns to
nihavent, forgetting the G in favour of G sharp. This has already
been announced very clearly during the taxim, when introducing a
phrase beginning with A / Gsharp that leads us into nihavent,
something that almost all interpreters of Smyrnaiiko minore have also
favoured.
And an advise to Tony, as a lute player: if you switch to politiko
laouto (ADAD) you will not be able to play triadic chords, even if you
wanted to. So the problem with dissonance will never come up!
Instead, you would be inclined to apply bass lines, as Dave already
suggests!
mene...@aol.com
Apr 15, 2008, 8:40:26 PM4/15/08
to Rebe...@googlegroups.com
Dear Tambouras,
Your interpretation of Michaliadhis's Gm chord being played to Halikias's e as their choice could of course be right on. They may have played together often enough that Michaliadhis recognized the motif that Halikias was playing and knew it was anticipatory to establishing g as a tonal center. We don't have either of them to ask! And I sense we have both played with musicians many times whose "moves" we could anticipate and prepare for. It's what makes ensemble playing so dynamic and exciting. But I think it could be equally valid that Halikias was responding to Michaliadhis's choice of chord in structuring his phrase. Both ways work for me and are true to the tradition. Bravo!
Michael Kaloyanides
University of New Haven
Your interpretation of Michaliadhis's Gm chord being played to Halikias's e as their choice could of course be right on. They may have played together often enough that Michaliadhis recognized the motif that Halikias was playing and knew it was anticipatory to establishing g as a tonal center. We don't have either of them to ask! And I sense we have both played with musicians many times whose "moves" we could anticipate and prepare for. It's what makes ensemble playing so dynamic and exciting. But I think it could be equally valid that Halikias was responding to Michaliadhis's choice of chord in structuring his phrase. Both ways work for me and are true to the tradition. Bravo!
Michael Kaloyanides
University of New Haven
tambouras
Apr 19, 2008, 9:32:55 AM4/19/08
to Rebetika
Excuse me folks - as this thread is in reality a continuation of the
Mavra Matia thread started by Kamkar, I'm taking the liberty of
pasting in Mr Narghile's excellent comment on how the guitar is used,
here, so that my response to it lands in the relevant thread:
Mr Narghile said:
"Another aspect of Rebetika guitar back up is not so much "which"
chord, but "how much" chord. In other words, how much of the triad is
audible....the chord can obviously be strummed in a full, strong
manner. Or it can be brushed so lightly that it is barely audible. Or
it can be dampened with the palm of the picking hand or by altering
pressure with the fingering hand. Or the chord can be broken up by
interspersed bass runs that either echo the melody or lead from chord
to chord. Or just a couple of notes from the chord are heard. There
are plenty of examples of all of these techniques. I've heard it said
that the strumming of the chord should not really be audible but a
random sample of early Markos recordings provides many examples where
the chord is strummed in a loudly and clearly. Alternately, if we
listen to any of the Peristeris-Skarvelis recordings (with singers
like Kavouras, Roukounas, Kazimatis) the guitar's bass runs are
constantly weaving in and out of the melody, the chords can be still
be heard in places but are de-emphasized. It's interesting to note
though, in all these cases the guitar is really providing a bass line,
much like the role of the oud would.... "
I really agree with this Dave, but would like to add the following
thoughts:
1) When we hear loud full chords on Markos songs, isn't it usually
just one chord, which is thus functioning as a drone which also
happens to include the third of the triad, and not just tonic and
fifth which is more usual in drone contexts?
2) When the guitarist plays what we can call a bass line in rebetika
and related musics, I think we should make the distinction between
this kind of bass line, and the kind of bass line played in music
within the Western tradition. In the non-Western music context the
bass notes, to my mind, though determined by the 'modal harmony'
implied by the melody, are in fact primarily rhythmic in function, but
as they have to have a pitch, this pitch is chosen on the basis of the
implied harmony.
On the other hand, the Western harmonic tradition as we know it today
descends directly from the innovations developed by 'classical'
musicians and theorists in late 16th century Italy, in reaction to the
complexity of renaissance polyphony which made it difficult to hear
the words. Striving to achieve an imagined ideal of how ancient Greek
drama was performed to musical accompaniment, where the clarity of the
lyrics was seen as a major priority, Florentine musicians developed
the idea of music based on two equivalent components, a solo melody,
and a non-interfering but supportive bass line. The next step in this
structure is a choice of harmony, using the bass note and the melody
as two of several possible notes sounding together, so that the melody
proceeds, on the undulating 'floor' of the bass line, and within the
embrace of a harmonic progression, without which the melody would seem
naked and emptier of content.
So - the reason for the ideal of guitar playing Dave so elegantly
expressed, is that the harmonies aren't meant to be noticed as such -
they are there to enable a rhythmic support, using instruments which
happen to lend themselves to chordal playing and thus contribute a
welcome richness of sonority to the music.
Mavra Matia thread started by Kamkar, I'm taking the liberty of
pasting in Mr Narghile's excellent comment on how the guitar is used,
here, so that my response to it lands in the relevant thread:
Mr Narghile said:
"Another aspect of Rebetika guitar back up is not so much "which"
chord, but "how much" chord. In other words, how much of the triad is
audible....the chord can obviously be strummed in a full, strong
manner. Or it can be brushed so lightly that it is barely audible. Or
it can be dampened with the palm of the picking hand or by altering
pressure with the fingering hand. Or the chord can be broken up by
interspersed bass runs that either echo the melody or lead from chord
to chord. Or just a couple of notes from the chord are heard. There
are plenty of examples of all of these techniques. I've heard it said
that the strumming of the chord should not really be audible but a
random sample of early Markos recordings provides many examples where
the chord is strummed in a loudly and clearly. Alternately, if we
listen to any of the Peristeris-Skarvelis recordings (with singers
like Kavouras, Roukounas, Kazimatis) the guitar's bass runs are
constantly weaving in and out of the melody, the chords can be still
be heard in places but are de-emphasized. It's interesting to note
though, in all these cases the guitar is really providing a bass line,
much like the role of the oud would.... "
I really agree with this Dave, but would like to add the following
thoughts:
1) When we hear loud full chords on Markos songs, isn't it usually
just one chord, which is thus functioning as a drone which also
happens to include the third of the triad, and not just tonic and
fifth which is more usual in drone contexts?
2) When the guitarist plays what we can call a bass line in rebetika
and related musics, I think we should make the distinction between
this kind of bass line, and the kind of bass line played in music
within the Western tradition. In the non-Western music context the
bass notes, to my mind, though determined by the 'modal harmony'
implied by the melody, are in fact primarily rhythmic in function, but
as they have to have a pitch, this pitch is chosen on the basis of the
implied harmony.
On the other hand, the Western harmonic tradition as we know it today
descends directly from the innovations developed by 'classical'
musicians and theorists in late 16th century Italy, in reaction to the
complexity of renaissance polyphony which made it difficult to hear
the words. Striving to achieve an imagined ideal of how ancient Greek
drama was performed to musical accompaniment, where the clarity of the
lyrics was seen as a major priority, Florentine musicians developed
the idea of music based on two equivalent components, a solo melody,
and a non-interfering but supportive bass line. The next step in this
structure is a choice of harmony, using the bass note and the melody
as two of several possible notes sounding together, so that the melody
proceeds, on the undulating 'floor' of the bass line, and within the
embrace of a harmonic progression, without which the melody would seem
naked and emptier of content.
So - the reason for the ideal of guitar playing Dave so elegantly
expressed, is that the harmonies aren't meant to be noticed as such -
they are there to enable a rhythmic support, using instruments which
happen to lend themselves to chordal playing and thus contribute a
welcome richness of sonority to the music.
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