FITZWILLIAM - the curious case of the 10th Earl's elder brother

[Shinjinee]

I remember reading about the 10th Earl proving his elder brother
George illegitimate (as he was born before his parents married
legally; IIRC they tried to marry as minors). This made the future
10th Earl heir before the death of his cousin, the childless and
divorced 9th Earl (called an alcoholic in some sources)

Lyster-Fitzwilliam marriage
--------------------------------------
Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
Lyster?


http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/Part_h8.htm

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.Alice Louisa Anson, d.14 Jan 1879; m.18 Mar
1865 Hon George Wentworth Fitzwilliam (3 May 1817-4 Mar 1874)

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.George Charles Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (2 Jan
1866-8 Dec 1935); m.Daisy Evelyn Lyster (d.25 Mar 1925)

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.[b.before m.] George James Charles
Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (1888-19__); m.1914 Lorna Beryl Morgan

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (1916-19__)

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, b.
1918

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.2.William Thomas George Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam, 10th Earl Fitzwilliam (28 May 1904-1980); m.3 Apr 1956
Joyce Elizabeth Mary Langdale

This sheds some light on the unfortunate George or Toby's fate; his
own mother, a former chorus girl, by now a snob, took her revenge on
her own elder son for marrying a governess, according to Montgomery-
Massingberd, based on Catherine Bailey's book BLACK DIAMONDS (see
below)

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/culture/books/article/111441/Black_Diamonds_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_English_Dynasty.html

[begin quote from review

The Earldom was then inherited by a cousin known as 'Bottle by
Bottle', before a court case over illegitimacy resulted in the title
passing not to another cousin, Toby (shamefully disowned by his
snobbish mother, herself a former chorus girl, for marrying a
governess), but to Toby's brother, Tom, the 10th and last Earl, who
died in 1979.

......[the author]... goes off on too many tangents, although her
researches into one tragic case of illegitimacy the spectre that
stalks the whole saga yields a scoop that breaks the heart and haunts
the memory.
[end quote from review]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/03/04/bobai03.xml
[Frances Wilson on Catherine Bailey book - begin quote]

Wentworth eventually became the subject of a court case between two
brothers, cousins of the Earls, the elder of whom had, as an adult,
been declared illegitimate by an irate mother who disliked his choice
of bride.

[end quote from review]

This author Catherine Bailey unfortunately had to rely on eye-witness
accounts and some speculation. According to her, the 10th Earl - who
benefitted from his elder brother's delegitimization circa 1952 -
destroyed nearly all family documents circa 1972. Makes one wonder,
doesn't it?

Does anyone have any further light to shed on this appalling mother
(Evelyn Lyster) and her unfortunate elder son's marriage? This
reminds me just a wee bit of Lady Dundonald's testimonies about her
several marriages in Scotland and England to the same man, Admiral
Lord Cochrane (later 10th Earl of Dundonald); apparently, the
legitimacy of her her own eldest son - the 11th Earl of Dundonald --
was questioned at the time of the succession.





10th Earl Fitzwilliam biological father of Hon Lady Hastings?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, the 10th Earl was apparently father of Joyce Langdale's yr
daughter Hon. Elizabeth Fitzalan-Howard, later the Hon Lady Hastings,
which is why he and his wife made her son Sir Philip Naylor-Leyland
heir to the estate. A nice fall-out for Lady Hastings and her
descendants... according to some other sources, the 10th Earl busily
destroyed family documents circa 1972 which might have shed some light
on his elder brother's illegitimacy and the curious Canadian birth of
the 7th Earl Fitzwilliam (considered to be a changeling by some of his
annoyed uncles and great-uncles).

For a picture of the 10th Earl, see
http://www.wentworthvillage.net/cgi-bin/ftree.pl?William%20Thomas%20George,2,

For a picture of the 9th Earl (1853-1952), a first cousin of the 7th
Earl (1872-1943) and both grandsons of the 6th Earl (d. 1902) see
http://www.wentworthvillage.net/cgi-bin/ftree.pl?Eric%20Spencer,2,

Row over 7th Earl's birth
------------------------------------

The 6th Earl, who died leaving several sons (but most had no surviving
issue or no issue). He had eight sons and four daughters (one died an
infant). Of the eight sons, four outlived him.
* The eldest son (Viscount Milton who died 1877) was father of the 7th
Earl (b. 1872);
* The second son Hon. William Henry FitzWilliam (1840-1920) was
married to Lady Mary Grace Louisa Butler, daughter of the 2nd Marquess
of Ormonde, but had only daughters (not listed in www.thepeerage.com);
he was heir presumptive to his nephew from 1902 to 1910.
* The fourth son Hon Sir William Charles FitzWilliam (1848-1925) a
royal courtier, was father of the 9th Earl who succeeded his first
cousin once removed in 1948.
http://www.wentworthvillage.net/cgi-bin/ftree.pl?William%20Thomas%20Spencer,2,
http://thepeerage.com/p1863.htm#i18622
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wentworth-FitzWilliam_(equerry)

6th Earl -> [1st son] Viscount Milton -> [only son] 7th Earl (d.
Why the birth of the future 7th Earl annoyed the family is because

a) there was some medical problem - epilepsy with his father Viscount
Milton (1839-1877)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wentworth-
FitzWilliam,_Viscount_Milton]
[http://thepeerage.com/p1863.htm]. He was therefore discouraged from
marrying. Nevetherless he secretly married Laura Theresa Beauclerk in
1867, and

b) his only son was born in 1872 in a distant and isolated Canadian
town without any reliable witnesses (i.e. considered reliable by the
angry uncles and great-uncles).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/03/18/bobai18.xml
{Lady Selina Hastings reviews Catherine Bailey's book]

But behind this façade of regal magnificence lies a wretchedly unhappy
history. Billy Fitzwilliam, the 7th Earl, born in 1872, was forced to
go to court to defeat nonsensical accusations by his uncles and aunts
that he was a changeling, substituted at birth for an unwanted baby
girl. His father, William, an epileptic, had been treated as a lunatic
and for a time shut up in an asylum; the family tried to prevent him
marrying, but he outwitted them, escaping with his wife to Canada,
where he made a reputation as an explorer.

Billy's son, Peter, born in 1910, also had a miserable youth, followed
by an unhappy marriage, though in his case the sad child developed
into a womanising buccaneer, a dashing leader of the fast set,
drinking at White's and hanging out on the Riviera with Aly Khan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/03/04/bobai03.xml
Bailey starts her unravelling of the family mysteries in 1902 with the
death of the 6th Earl, more or less the richest man in England.

Not the sort to put one at ease, a dinner guest found William
Fitzwilliam so unresponsive to her efforts at conversation that she
was driven to ask "which reflection of himself in his spoon he
preferred - the convex or concave". He named each of his eight sons
William and had the eldest, a weedy scrap of a thing, carted off to an
asylum after it was found he had epilepsy.

When the young William married, he in turn shipped his equally frail -
and heavily pregnant - wife off to the frozen wastes of Canada so that
she could give birth to the Wentworth heir in a specially chosen hut.
It was generally believed by the relatives back home that the
strapping baby boy who duly appeared, also called William, but known
as Billy, was a changeling, the son of a cash-strapped Canadian for
whom the desperate milord had exchanged his own new-born daughter. As
Billy's father did not live long enough to inherit the title himself,
the cuckoo took over the magnificent nest and became the 7th Earl.


http://www.countrylife.co.uk/culture/books/article/111441/Black_Diamonds_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_English_Dynasty.html

[begin quote from review
The book begins with the death of the 6th Earl Fitzwilliam in 1902.
His eldest son, Viscount Milton, an epileptic explorer, had been
exiled to the wilds of Canada, where his own son, Billy, was born in
1872. Billy's Aunt Alice (who was said to make 'the milk go sour just
by looking at it') claimed that he was a 'changeling', yet he
succeeded as the 7th Earl and presided over a golden age at Wentworth.
Unlike some colliery owners, 'Billy Fitzbilly' (as he was
affectionately known) was a model employer.

[end quote from review]


At Viscount Milton's death in 1877, his 5-year-old son became heir
apparent. He succeeded his grandfather in 1902 aged 30. Before that ,
he married the beautiful Lady Maud Dundas in 1896, and their only son
was born in 1910. This son, the 8th Earl Fitzwilliam (1910-1948) was
the father of Lady Juliet (b. 1935) [http://thepeerage.com/
p4580.htm#i45799], later 2nd wife of the 6th Marquess of Bristol 1960
to 1972, then of Somerset de Chair (by whom a surviving daughter
Helena, her 2nd dau and 3rd but only surv child), and then of
Christopher Tadgell. Her father is better known as the lover/ partner
of Kathleen Kennedy Cavendish, widowed Marchioness of Hartington, and
sister of John F. Kennedy, late President of the United States.

The 7th and 8th Earl were apparently responsible landowners, but the
Labour government post 1945 all but destroyed the estate by coal-
mining within feet of the house Wentworth Woodhouse. [An aunt Lady
Mabel Smith, a Labour politician, managed to save the house itsel].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Mabel_Fitzwilliam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wentworth_Woodhouse

A book by Catherine Bailey "Black Diamonds: The Rise and Fall of a
Great English Dynasty" details the fall of the Fitzwilliam dynasty
and the destruction of the estate post 1945
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/product/0670915424
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/culture/books/article/111441/Black_Diamonds_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_English_Dynasty.html



If I may say so, the 6th Earl sounds like a bit of a egomaniac. And
the family clearly disintegrates after the 1860s; few of his sons and
collateral lines married, and even fewer fathered living sons. The
last branch's elder son was delegitimized by his own mother (and
father, I believe); unfortunately, he was the only line to produce
sons after 1910 (the birth of the 8th Earl).


Shinjinee

[Shinjinee]

Sorry, the 9th Earl lived 1883 to 1953. His marriage lasted 1912 to
1917.
http://thepeerage.com/p3386.htm#i33858

Shinjinee

[Shinjinee]

I seem to be replying to myself, but I found an article from the 1951
Times:

On Nov 2, 11:16 am, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I remember reading about the 10th Earl proving his elder brother
> George illegitimate (as he was born before his parents married
> legally; IIRC they tried to marry as minors). This made the future
> 10th Earl heir before the death of his cousin, the childless and
> divorced 9th Earl (called an alcoholic in some sources)
>
> Lyster-Fitzwilliam marriage
> --------------------------------------
> Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
> about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
> Lyster?
>

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,820663,00.html


[beginning of article]

Queen Victoria had strong views about almost everything—especially
actresses. She once said: "Any gentleman wishing to become an officer
in my Household troops will not be eligible if he marries a woman on
the stage." George Charles Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, a 20-year-old
militia officer who wanted a commission in The Blues, thus hesitated
to wed pretty Actress Eva Raines.

In 1886 George and Eva got married in Scotland without benefit of
clergy, "by mutual exchange [of vows] and consent." Such a marriage
was valid under Scots law. Two years later, just to make sure, George
and Eva were married again in a quiet ceremony in London. Seven months
before, Eva had given birth to a son. By this time George was an
officer in The Blues. The regiment heard about the second wedding, and
bounced him.

Last week Eva's firstborn, George James Charles Wentworth-Fitzwilliam,
63, known as Toby, appeared before Justice Pilcher in London's High
Court to claim that his birth was legitimate. Toby asked to be legally
recognized as the elder brother of Eva's second son, Captain William
Thomas George Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, 46, known as Tom. Tom is
recognized as the present heir to the ancient earldom of Fitzwilliam,
its $2,000,000 estate and the largest private mansion (365 rooms) in
England. Why had Toby waited so long? Neither he nor Tom had a chance
for succession until two years ago when the eighth earl was killed in
an air crash. The ninth earl is 67 and childless, and Toby (if
legitimate) is his lawful heir. This week, as their lawyers droned on,
Toby and Tom came to court almost identically dressed in bowler hats,
stiff collars, maroon ties. Each denied any animosity toward the
other; it was just a family matter that the law should clarify.

[end of article]

Apparently Eva Raines was the stage name of Daisy Evelyn Lyster. The
Scots marriage on 28 Dec 1886 was apparently considered invalid,
because
a) the parties were not normally resident in Scotland, and
b) the groom, at least, was a minor (b 2 Jan 1866), and thus just
under 21.

It is a pity that he did not marry his actress again in London once he
came of age before his elder son Toby was born.

I read somewhere else that the father's estate was settled shortly
before his death on his yr son Tom (then about 30). If gossip is
correct, Tom had already begun an adulterous affair with the future
Viscountess Fitzalan of Derwent, and she had given birth to his
daughter. (She later divorced her husband, and Tom married her making
her eventually Countess Fitzwilliam), Tom's daughter was recognized
officially as his stepdaughter, although later in the 1990s she
obliquely accepted her true paternity. (Her son inherited the
Fitzwilliam estates from his maternal grandmother Countess
Fitzwilliam).

Why did Toby and Tom wait so long, or rather, why did Toby wait so
long?

At the time of his birth and later, he was apparently accepted as
legitimate. The Plantagenet Roll [http://books.google.co.in/books?
id=0aUD4NqGYqAC&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=%22George+Charles+Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam%22&source=bl&ots=6Kk-s6y6oo&sig=bm0Tp6-DyFAoB1TxuoLU5JzNe-
U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result] lists him as b 19 May
1888 to parents who married 28 December 1866. If that is correct,
either de Ruvigny made a mistake (assuming legitimation by subsequent
marriage), or he was initially listed under the scions of Fitzwilliam
E. I would love to know which one is true.

In 1948, the 8th Earl was trying to divorce his long-estranged wife,
the mother of his only child, a girl. He would probably remarry and
father more children. His death in 1948 leaving only a daughter,
meant that the next earl, Eric (b. 1883), was unlikely to marry - he
was already divorced without issue, and apparently addicted to the
bottle. He was also about 65 at his succession. Thus, the next heir
presumptive became a matter of concern. The father's decision to
leave his elder son out of the entail (his wife the horrible Evelyn
had died in 1925) probably meant that the elder son Toby was already
regarded as illegitimate or that he had been cut out because of his
marriage to a governess. [Ironic, given that his mother was a showgirl
or actress].

Again, I would love to know what happened between 1935 and 1951.

Shinjinee

[marquess]

An excellent post, as you say one would dearly like to know what
happened to those children? Sad that so illustrious an earldom has
come to an end when it might not otherwise have done. Phonetically
Fitz William has such an air to it.

[Shinjinee]

OK, a followup to the Times article

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857160,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

Monday April 2, 1952

Died. Eric Spencer Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, the ninth Earl Fitzwilliam,
68, whose title and £1,000,000 ($2,800,000) fortune were the plums
last year in one of England's costliest court actions; of heart
disease; in Oakham, England. The childless peer's second cousin, Capt.
W.T.G.W. ("Tom") Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, became next in line when Tom's
older brother, George J. ("Toby") Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, failed to
prove that his dashing Royal Horse Guards father was properly married
to his actress mother before Toby was born.

and a book
http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/hammon/55320.shtml
1951 Clandestine Victorian Romance of George Charles Wentworth
Fitzwilliam
. "approximately 10x14, from our extensive vintage paper collection,
in mylar with stiff backing"; ADV005762; 5147; These are unbound pages
from a journal. Image can be supplied if desired.. very good .

Hmm.. wish I had ILL access!

Shinjinee

[Shinjinee]

Toby was one time secretary of Cowdray Hunt, and had a memorial put up
to him, but this had been vandalized and destroyed by 1999
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=8_mVEXUwRgcC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=%22Toby+Wentworth-Fitzwilliam%22&source=web&ots=BcWlFy4YKf&sig=O0JvbPDhIHt6M4-AHEY57XgJKzE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA80,M1

On Nov 2, 11:16 am, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Lyster-Fitzwilliam marriage
> --------------------------------------
> Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
> about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
> Lyster?
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/Part_h8.htm
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.Alice Louisa Anson, d.14 Jan 1879; m.18 Mar
> 1865 Hon George Wentworth Fitzwilliam (3 May 1817-4 Mar 1874)
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.George Charles Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (2 Jan
> 1866-8 Dec 1935); m.Daisy Evelyn Lyster (d.25 Mar 1925)
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.[b.before m.] George James Charles
> Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (1888-19__); m.1914 Lorna Beryl Morgan
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
> Fitzwilliam (1916-19__)
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, b.
> 1918
>

Source
The South Downs Way: Eastbourne to Winchester
By Kev Reynolds
Published by Cicerone Press Limited, 2004
ISBN 1852844299, 9781852844295
160 pages
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=8_mVEXUwRgcC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=%22Toby+Wentworth-Fitzwilliam%22&source=web&ots=BcWlFy4YKf&sig=O0JvbPDhIHt6M4-AHEY57XgJKzE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA78,M1

Shinjinee

[Michael Rhodes]

On 2 Nov, 06:16, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
> about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
> Lyster?
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/Part_h8.htm
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.Alice Louisa Anson, d.14 Jan 1879; m.18 Mar
> 1865 Hon George Wentworth Fitzwilliam (3 May 1817-4 Mar 1874)
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.George Charles Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (2 Jan
> 1866-8 Dec 1935); m.Daisy Evelyn Lyster (d.25 Mar 1925)
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.[b.before m.] George James Charles
> Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (1888-19__); m.1914 Lorna Beryl Morgan
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
> Fitzwilliam (1916-19__)

Richard John Godric Wentworth Fitzwilliam born at Daventry,
3 Feb 1916; married with 1 son and 1 dau; died at London Camberwell,
Oct 1987, aged 71

>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, b.
> 1918

Rosemary was born London St George's Hanover Sq, 24 Apr 1918;
married Mr Bruce Goff, a Lloyd's underwriter.

>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.2.William Thomas George Wentworth-
> Fitzwilliam, 10th Earl Fitzwilliam (28 May 1904-1980); m.3 Apr 1956
> Joyce Elizabeth Mary Langdale

The 10th Earl died at Wentworth Woodhouse 21 Sept 1979, not 1980.


I'm now on the scent of Toby Fitzwilliam's grandchildren!!!

[Michael Rhodes]

On 3 Nov, 01:50, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 2 Nov, 06:16, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
> > about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
> > Lyster?

> Rosemary was born London St George's Hanover Sq, 24 Apr 1918;
> married Mr Bruce Goff, a Lloyd's underwriter.

Rosemary Goff died at Chichester, Sussex, in March, 1997.

[Shinjinee]

Thanks, Michael!

Shinjinee

On Nov 3, 6:50 am, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Richard John Godric Wentworth Fitzwilliam born at Daventry,
> 3 Feb 1916; married with 1 son and 1 dau; died at London Camberwell,
> Oct 1987, aged 71
>
>
>
> > 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, b.
> > 1918
>
> Rosemary was born London St George's Hanover Sq, 24 Apr 1918;
> married Mr Bruce Goff, a Lloyd's underwriter.

>

> The 10th Earl died at Wentworth Woodhouse 21 Sept 1979, not 1980.
>
> I'm now on the scent of Toby Fitzwilliam's grandchildren!!!

Thanks for the date update. I got the names and dates off www.thepeerage.com
and Paul Theroff's extended Gotha files (descendants of Henry VII
IIRC).

Shinjinee

[Shinjinee]

On Nov 3, 6:50 am, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>

> I'm now on the scent of Toby Fitzwilliam's grandchildren!!!

Also, Toby's date of death and dates for his wife would be great, if
any one can find these.

Thanks in advance
Shinjinee

[Michael Rhodes]

> Also, Toby's date of death and dates for his wife would be great, if
> any one can find these.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Shinjinee

Toby Fitzwilliam, of Egdean, Pulborough, Sussex, died Jan-Mar 1955.

[Michael Rhodes]

On 3 Nov, 18:28, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

Lorna Beryl W. Fitzwilliam (nee Morgan) (wife of Toby, the would-be
10th Earl Fitzwilliam) was born at Barton R,
Oct-Dec 1886; married in 1914; died at Midhurst, Jul-Sept 1960, aged
74.

[Michael Rhodes]

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (1916-1987) m at Midhurst, Jul-Sep 1940,
Joan Ellery


===

[Michael Rhodes]

Some further additions to Theroff:-

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam,
b. 24 Apr 1918, died Chichester, Mar 1997; married (i) at
Chanctonbury, Jan-Mar 1941,
George C.G. Dyer; married (ii) at Westminster, London Jul-Sept 1946,
Bruce P.R. Goff
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.1.Michael G.G. Dyer, born Surrey Apr-Jun
1942
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.2.Anne S. Goff, born Westminster, Jul-
Sep 1947

==

More to follow!!


--













> ===

[Michael Rhodes]

Theroff update:-

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (1916-1987) m. 1940 Joan, former wife (widow?) of
__Ellery, and
dau of __Scorror.
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.1.Robin Michael Godric Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (b London 1944- )
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.2.(a daughter) Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (b Maidstone 1946- )



==

[Shinjinee]

On Nov 5, 4:32 am, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Theroff update:-
>
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.Richard John Godric Wentworth-
> Fitzwilliam (1916-1987) m. 1940 Joan, former wife (widow?) of
> __Ellery, and
> dau of __Scorror.
> 6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.1.Robin Michael Godric Wentworth-
> Fitzwilliam (b London 1944-  )

Still with us:
http://www.creditgate.com/directorsearch/directors_WE_3.aspx
ROBIN WENTWORTH-FITZWILLIAM
Hemel Hempstead, Northern Home Counties, HP27 0

and

ROBIN MICHAEL GODRIC WENTWORTH-FITZWILLIAM
AYLESBURY
BUCKINGHAMSHIRE
HP27 0

Former company director.

Shinjinee

[Shinjinee]

I found one possible grandson (I hope)

Michael Wentworth-Fitzwilliam PMP
IS Program Manager Direct Marketing at Philip Morris International
Geneva Area, Switzerland

Is he the same as Michael Charles Godric Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, of
London?


Robin Michael Godrick Wentworth-Fitzwilliam is now living in
Buckinghamshire. Not sure if an R. Fitzwilliam also mentioned with
him on another page is his wife, his sister, or his daughter?


I have omitted any further details I found, since these are people who
have chosen not to appear (or have not appeared) in any publicly
available reference works on the peerage.

I would assume however that Robin is the same Robin born 1944 (the
names fit), and that Michael Charles Godrick Wentworth-Fitzwilliam of
UK and Michael Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, of Philip Morris (now living in
Switzerland), are one and the same and Robin's son.

So we have direct male-line descendants - a grandson b 1944 and a
great-grandson - of Toby Wentworth-Fitzwilliam living today. Judging
from Michael's dates, he was born circa 1970/1971.

Shinjinee


On Nov 5, 4:32 am, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

[Michael Rhodes]

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.1.Robin Michael Godric Wentworth-
Fitzwilliam (b London 1944- ) married at Worthing Jul-Sep 1967,
Ann Weller/Waller?
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.1.1.1.Diana Wentworth-Fitzwilliam,
born at Amersham, Apr-Jun 1971

==

[Michael Rhodes]

On 5 Nov, 01:53, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Robin Michael Godrick Wentworth-Fitzwilliam is now living in
> Buckinghamshire.  

He married Claire L. Gillett, in Windsor & Maidenhead
in Jun 1998. I can't see any children.


==

[Michael Rhodes]

On 5 Nov, 02:30, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

No. It was Michael Charles Godric Wentworth-Fitzwilliam who wed
Claire Gillett.



Sheesh....I'm fitzwilliamed out and not concentrating properly -
the US elections are occupying my attention at 2.33am








>
> ==

[Michael Rhodes]

Daily Telegraph 5 Mar 1997: "GOFF._Rosemary Anne, suddenly on
Saturday, March 1, 1997, wife of the late Bruce Goff, MC, formerly
Dyer (nee Wentworth-Fitzwilliam), beloved mother of Michael, Annie and
Becca, adored grandmother and great-grandmother. ..Funeral on March 8,
at St Bartholemew's, Egdean, near Fittleworth, West Sussex....."



==

[Michael Rhodes]

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.Rosemary Ann Wentworth-Fitzwilliam,
b. 24 Apr 1918, died Chichester, Mar 1997; married (i) at
Chanctonbury, Jan-Mar 1941, George C.G. Dyer; married
(ii) at Westminster, London Jul-Sept 1946, Bruce P.R. Goff
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.1.Michael G.G. Dyer, born Surrey Apr-Jun
1942
6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.2.Anne S. Goff, born Westminster, Jul-
Sep 1947

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.3.Rebecca R.Goff, Born Westminster, Jul-
Sep 1957.

==

[Michael Rhodes]

6.2.2.1.3.1.7.8.2.6.7.2.1.1.2.3.Rebecca R.Goff, Born Westminster, Jul-

Sep 1957,
married at Chichester, Apr 1988, Charles D. Barker-Wyatt ????

==

[Michael Rhodes]

On 2 Nov, 06:16, Shinjinee <ssen_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Whatever happened to poor George aka Toby, and his children? And what
> about the curious marriage of his parents - George and (Daisy) Evelyn
> Lyster?

It's interesting that the 1951 court case was far from acrimonious.
Eric, the 9th Earl,
in a statement to the Press said he didn't care which of the brothers
succeeded
him - both were jolly decent fellows. The brothers themselves always
arrived at
court together and left together - dressed alike with matching bowler
hats -
insisting that it was by no means a _battle_. They simply wanted
closure.
Toby revealed to the court how he'd written to Debrett's and Burke's
at sometime
during the 1930s to inform them that he did not think that he was
legitimate and
asked to be removed from the publications.

When Eric, the 9th Earl, died in 1952 he bequeathed his personal
wealth (not the
Fitzwilliam Trust Fund monies) to Toby and to Toby's son.


==