Lord AB Smith

[colinp]

With the death of Lord Christopher Thynne I began to wonder how many younger sons of dukes and marquesses there were and whether the number of them was reducing.  The courtesy title "Lord firstname surname" is always going to be rarer than "Lady firstname surname" given that the courtesy title of Lady is given to daughters of earls as well and of course is used by wives and widows of younger sons of dukes and marquesses.  Also I suspected that the younger sons of dukes and marquesses are getting fewer with smaller families becoming the norm. 

My research indicates that there are 99 younger sons of dukes and marquesses including those granted that status by letters patent or royal warrant and those you choose not to use the title ie bearing courtesy title Lord firstname surname and therefore excluding those created peers.  As I suspected the age range is weighted to the older generations as the first column of figures in the following table shows -

Birthdates

1920’s       2            

1930’s       3

1940’s       11

1950’s       25

1960’s       17

1970’s       15

1980’s       5                      +2             7

1990’s       14                    +4             18  

2000’s        5                     +2              7

2010’s        2                     +3               5

TOTAL       99                    +11           110

The second column adds those living persons who may reasonably expect to become Lords on the death of the current duke or marquess either because they are grandsons of the current holder and their father does not enjoy the courtesy title of a marquess or because they are the nephews or cousins of the current holder and their father is the heir presumptive but is either untitled or only the bearer of a courtesy title. 

The full listing is below  - the column 2 additions are shown in italics in square brackets.  Any corrections/additions please let me know!

DUKES

ABERCORN (Hamilton) (3) – son Lord Nicholas b 1979; grandson Lord Claud b 2007; brother Lord Claud b 1939

ARGYLL (Campbell) (2) – son Lord Rory b 2006; uncle Lord Colin b 1946

ATHOLL (Murray) (2) – son Lord David b 1986; brother Lord Craig b 1963

BEAUFORT (Somerset) (3) – sons Lord Edward b 1958, Lord John b 1964; grandson Lord Alexander b 1995

BEDFORD (Russell) (4) – brothers Lord Robin b 1963, Lord James b 1975; uncle Lord Rudolf b 1944; half-uncle Lord Francis b 1950

BUCCLEUCH (Montagu Douglas Scott) (3) – son Lord Charles b 1987; brothers Lord William b 1957, Lord Damian b 1969

DEVONSHIRE (Cavendish) (0) – NONE

FIFE (Carnegie) (2) – sons Lord George b 1991, Lord Hugh b 1993

GLOUCESTER (Windsor) (0) – NONE

GRAFTON (Fitzroy) (1) – uncle Lord Charles b 1957

HAMILTON (Douglas-Hamilton) (5) – sons Lord William b 2014, Lord Basil b 2016; brother Lord John b 1979; uncles Lord Patrick b 1950, Lord David b 1952 (other uncle James granted life peerage Lord Selkirk of Douglas)

KENT (Windsor) (2) – son Lord Nicholas b 1970; cousin Lord Frederick b 1979 (by terms of 1917 Letters Patent)

LEINSTER (Fitzgerald) (0) – NONE

MANCHESTER (Montagu) (1) – brother Lord Kimble b 1964

MARLBOROUGH (Spencer-Churchill) (2) – son Lord Caspar b 2008; half-brother Lord Edward b 1974

MONTROSE (Graham) (3) – son Lord Ronald b 1975; half-brothers Lord Donald b 1956, Lord Calum b 1958

NORFOLK (Fitzalan Howard) (4) – sons Lord Thomas b 1992, Lord Philip b 1996; brother Lord Gerald b 1962;  uncle Lord Mark b 1934 (raised to rank of Duke’s son by Royal Warrant 1975)

NORTHUMBERLAND (Percy) (2) – son Lord Max b 1990; brother Lord James b 1965

RICHMOND (Gordon Lennox) (0) [+2] – NONE [Hon William b 1996 and Hon Frederick b 2000 sons of Earl of March likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

ROXBURGHE (Innes Kerr) (3) – sons Lord Edward b 1984, Lord George b 1996; brother Lord Robin b 1959

RUTLAND (Manners) (3) – son Lord Hugo b 2003; brother Lord Edward b 1965; uncle Lord Roger b 1925

ST ALBANS (Manners) (2) – half-brothers Lord Peter b 1948, Lord John b 1950

SOMERSET (Seymour) (2) – son Lord Charles b 1992; brother Lord Francis b 1956

SUTHERLAND (Egerton) (1) – son Lord Henry b 1977

WELLINGTON (Wellesley) (4) – son Lord Frederick b 1992; brothers Lord Richard b 1949, Lord John b 1954, Lord James b 1964

WESTMINSTER (Grosvenor) (0) – NONE

MARQUESSES

ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR (Gordon) (2) [+1]– sons Lord Sam b 1985, Lord Charles b 1990 [Hon Johnny b 2014 son of Earl of Haddo likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

ABERGAVENNY (Nevill) (0) – NONE

AILESBURY (Brudenell-Bruce) (1) – half-brother Lord Charles b 1951

AILSA (Kennedy) (0) – NONE

ANGLESEY (Paget) (1) – brother Lord Rupert b 1957

BATH (Thynn(e) (0)[+1] – NONE [Hon Henry b 2016 son of Viscount Weymouth likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

BRISTOL (Hervey) (0) – NONE

BUTE (Crichton-Stuart) (1) – brother Lord Anthony b 1961

CAMDEN (Pratt) (0) – NONE

CHOLMONDELEY (Cholmondeley) (1) – son Lord Oliver b 2009

CONYNGHAM (Conyngham) (2) [+1] – brothers Lord Simon b 1953, Lord Frederick b 1959; [Hon Caspar b 2012 son of Lord Mount Charles likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

DONEGALL (Chichester) (0) – NONE

DOWNSHIRE (Hill) (1) – brother Lord Anthony b 1961

ELY (Tottenham) (3)[+1] – adopted son Lord Andrew b 1973; brothers Lord Timothy b 1948, Lord Richard b 1954 [John D Tottenham b 1981 son of Lord Timothy likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

EXETER (Cecil) (0) – NONE

HEADFORT (Taylour) (1) – son Lord Henry b 1991

HERTFORD (Seymour) (1) – son Lord Edward b 1995

HUNTLEY (Gordon) (0) – NONE

LANSDOWNE (Petty-Fitzmaurice) (2) – son Lord William b 1973; brother Lord Robert b 1947

LINLITHGOW (Hope) (2) [+1] – sons Lord Alexander b 1971, Lord Robert b 1984 [Hon Victor b 2001 son of Viscount Aithrie likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

LONDONDERRY (Vane-Tempest-Stewart) (1) – brother Lord Reginald b 1977

LOTHIAN (Kerr) (2) [+3] – brother Lord Ralph; uncle Lord John b 1927 (raised to rank of Marquess’s son by Royal Warrant 1941) [Frederic JMR Kerr b 1989, Francis AMG Kerr b 1991 and Hugh ATJ Kerr b 1999 sons of Lord Ralph likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

MILFORD HAVEN (Mountbatten) (1) – brother Lord Ivar b 1963

NORMANBY (Phipps) (2) – son Lord Thomas b 1997; brother Lord Justin b 1958

NORTHAMPTON (Compton) (0) – NONE

QUEENSBERRY (Douglas) (2) – son Lord Torquil b 1978; half-brother Lord Gawain b 1961

READING (Rufus Isaacs) (2) – brothers Lord Antony b 1943, Lord Alexander b 1957

SALISBURY (Gascoyne Cecil) (4) – son Lord James b 1973; brothers Lord Charles b 1949, Lord Valentine b 1952, Lord Michael b 1960

SLIGO (Browne) (0) – NONE

TOWNSHEND (Townshend) (1) – half-brother Lord John b 1962

TWEEDDALE (Hay) (3) [+1] – brother (Lord) Alistair b 1955; half-brothers Lord Hamish b 1959, Lord Andrew b 1959 [Rory EH Hay b 1993 son of Lord Andrew likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

WATERFORD (Beresford) (4) – son Lord Marcus b 1990; brothers Lord Charles b 1960, Lord James b 1965; uncle Lord Patrick b 1934

WINCHESTER (Paulet) (2) – son Lord Richard b 1971; brother Lord Timothy b 1944  (raised to rank of Marquess’s son by Royal Warrant 1970)

ZETLAND ((Dundas) (3) – son Lord James b 1967; brothers Lord David b 1945, Lord Richard b 1951

[pyvery]

St Albans Beauclerk  does the current Duke not have three halfbrothers lord James

Abercorn..the Duke's brother is known as lord Anthony.

Wellington..Ld Douro's second son is surely a Lord ,born in late 2014.

[pyvery]

Wellinton..the Duke's grandson is Lord Alfred

St Albans...lord James b 1949

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:44:36 PM UTC, colinp wrote:

[marquess]

An excellent list! Doesn't Aberdeen have some sons of the previous marquis but one, who were adopted and bear the title 'Lord'? Lord Andrew and Lord James,  listed in the 2008 edition but not the 2011. Adopted children of the 4th marquis. 

[colinp]

Thank you Pyvery and Marquess - your comments are noted.  The adopted sons of the 4th Marquess of Aberdeen were born in 1950 and 1953. 

[marquess]

It would be of interest to know in the past which marquess or duke had the most sons who bore the courtesy title lord? In addition who was the first younger son of a marquess to be accorded the appellation? The earliest that I can recall is Lord Leonard Gray of the Dorset marquisate in the late 1400's. I believe that he might have subsequently been made a viscount. On the subject of number of sons from the past if I recall correctly the 1st duke of Northumberland (Dudley creation) had six surviving sons, Lord Robert being the most famous.

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 11:44:36 PM UTC+7, colinp wrote:

[pyvery]

I think that there is now a Lord Rafe Fitzroy b 2017 to be added to Grafton as son

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:44:36 PM UTC, colinp wrote:

[bx...@yahoo.com]

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says Lord Rafe was born on March 16, 2017.

Brooke

[www.maltagenealogy.com]

Surely Adopted are not permitted to style ?

I believe we spoke about transgender, same sex marriages/spouses, illegitimate prior to parents marriage.

Is it not updated under the Spanish peerage now for above ?

[colinp]

Yes, adopted children of peers bear styles and courtesy proper to younger children titles pursuant to Royal Warrant dated 30th April 2004.  Legitimated children also bear courtesy titles by Earl Marshal's Warrant dated 3rd June 1970.

On Saturday, 25 February 2017 16:44:36 UTC, colinp wrote:

[www.maltagenealogy.com]

Thanks Colinp.

[pyvery]

Lord Roger Manners has died

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:44:36 PM UTC, colinp wrote:

[colinp]

I've updated and corrected the list in the light of the comments above and recent changes (and also corrected some terrible maths)

The stats list is as follows-

Birthdates

1930’s       3

1940’s       11

1950’s       27

1960’s       18

1970’s       15

1980’s       5                      +2             7

1990’s       15                    +3            18  

2000’s        6                     +1              7

2010’s        3                     +4               7

TOTAL       103                   +10           113

The listing is below as at 1 August 2019.  The only comment I would make is that as the Duke of Wellington's heir is still styled as Earl of Mornington, his second son Alfred remains an Hon but he is a prospective Lord

DUKES

ABERCORN (Hamilton) (3) – son Lord Nicholas b 1979; grandson Lord Claud b 2007; brother Lord Anthony (Claud) b 1939

ARGYLL (Campbell) (2) – son Lord Rory b 2006; uncle Lord Colin b 1946

ATHOLL (Murray) (2) – son Lord David b 1986; brother Lord Craig b 1963

BEAUFORT (Somerset) (3) – son Lord Alexander b 1995; brothers Lord Edward b 1958, Lord John b 1964;

BEDFORD (Russell) (4) – brothers Lord Robin b 1963, Lord James b 1975; uncle Lord Rudolf b 1944; half-uncle Lord Francis b 1950

BUCCLEUCH (Montagu Douglas Scott) (3) – son Lord Charles b 1987; brothers Lord William b 1957, Lord Damian b 1969

DEVONSHIRE (Cavendish) (0) – NONE

FIFE (Carnegie) (2) – sons Lord George b 1991, Lord Hugh b 1993

GLOUCESTER (Windsor) (0) – NONE

GRAFTON (Fitzroy) (2) – son Lord Rafe b 2017; uncle Lord Charles b 1957

HAMILTON (Douglas-Hamilton) (5) – sons Lord William b 2014, Lord Basil b 2016; brother Lord John b 1979; uncles Lord Patrick b 1950, Lord David b 1952 (other uncle James granted life peerage Lord Selkirk of Douglas)

KENT (Windsor) (2) – son Lord Nicholas b 1970; cousin Lord Frederick b 1979 (by terms of 1917 Letters Patent)

LEINSTER (Fitzgerald) (0) – NONE

MANCHESTER (Montagu) (1) – brother Lord Kimble b 1964

MARLBOROUGH (Spencer-Churchill) (2) – son Lord Caspar b 2008; half-brother Lord Edward b 1974

MONTROSE (Graham) (3) – son Lord Ronald b 1975; half-brothers Lord Donald b 1956, Lord Calum b 1958

NORFOLK (Fitzalan Howard) (4) – sons Lord Thomas b 1992, Lord Philip b 1996; brother Lord Gerald b 1962;  uncle Lord Mark b 1934 (raised to rank of Duke’s son by Royal Warrant 1975)

NORTHUMBERLAND (Percy) (2) – son Lord Max b 1990; brother Lord James b 1965

RICHMOND (Gordon Lennox) (2) – sons Lord William b 1996 and Lord Frederick b 2000

ROXBURGHE (Innes Kerr) (3) – sons Lord Edward b 1984, Lord George b 1996; brother Lord Robin b 1959

RUTLAND (Manners) (2) – son Lord Hugo b 2003; brother Lord Edward b 1965;

ST ALBANS (Beauclerk) (3) – half-brothers Lord Peter b 1948, Lord James b 1949, Lord John b 1950

SOMERSET (Seymour) (2) – son Lord Charles b 1992; brother Lord Francis b 1956

SUTHERLAND (Egerton) (1) – son Lord Henry b 1977

WELLINGTON (Wellesley) (4) [+1] – son Lord Frederick b 1992; brothers Lord Richard b 1949, Lord John b 1954, Lord James b 1964 [grandson Hon Alfred b 2014 likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

WESTMINSTER (Grosvenor) (0) – NONE

MARQUESSES

ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR (Gordon) (4) [+1]– sons Lord Sam b 1985, Lord Charles b 1990; adopted sons of 4th Marquess Lord Andrew b 1950, Lord James b 1953 [Hon Johnny b 2014 son of Earl of Haddo likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

ABERGAVENNY (Nevill) (0) – NONE

AILESBURY (Brudenell-Bruce) (1) – half-brother Lord Charles b 1951

AILSA (Kennedy) (0) – NONE

ANGLESEY (Paget) (1) – brother Lord Rupert b 1957

BATH (Thynn(e) (0)[+1] – NONE [Hon Henry b 2016 son of Viscount Weymouth likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

BRISTOL (Hervey) (0) – NONE

BUTE (Crichton-Stuart) (1) – brother Lord Anthony b 1961

CAMDEN (Pratt) (0) – NONE

CHOLMONDELEY (Cholmondeley) (1) – son Lord Oliver b 2009

CONYNGHAM (Conyngham) (2) [+1] – brothers Lord Simon b 1953, Lord Frederick b 1959; [Hon Caspar b 2012 son of Lord Mount Charles likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

DONEGALL (Chichester) (0) – NONE

DOWNSHIRE (Hill) (1) – brother Lord Anthony b 1961

ELY (Tottenham) (3)[+1] – adopted son Lord Andrew b 1973; brothers Lord Timothy b 1948, Lord Richard b 1954 [John D Tottenham b 1981 son of Lord Timothy likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

EXETER (Cecil) (0) – NONE

HEADFORT (Taylour) (1) – son Lord Henry b 1991

HERTFORD (Seymour) (1) – son Lord Edward b 1995

HUNTLEY (Gordon) (0) – NONE

LANSDOWNE (Petty-Fitzmaurice) (2) – son Lord William b 1973; brother Lord Robert b 1947

LINLITHGOW (Hope) (2) [+1] – sons Lord Alexander b 1971, Lord Robert b 1984 [Hon Victor b 2001 son of Viscount Aithrie likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

LONDONDERRY (Vane-Tempest-Stewart) (1) – brother Lord Reginald b 1977

LOTHIAN (Kerr) (1) [+3] – brother Lord Ralph b 1957; [Frederic JMR Kerr b 1989, Francis AMG Kerr b 1991 and Hugh ATJ Kerr b 1999 sons of Lord Ralph likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

MILFORD HAVEN (Mountbatten) (1) – brother Lord Ivar b 1963

NORMANBY (Phipps) (2) – son Lord Thomas b 1997; brother Lord Justin b 1958

NORTHAMPTON (Compton) (0) – NONE

QUEENSBERRY (Douglas) (2) – son Lord Torquil b 1978; half-brother Lord Gawain b 1961

READING (Rufus Isaacs) (2) – brothers Lord Antony b 1943, Lord Alexander b 1957

SALISBURY (Gascoyne Cecil) (4) – son Lord James b 1973; brothers Lord Charles b 1949, Lord Valentine b 1952, Lord Michael b 1960

SLIGO (Browne) (0) – NONE

TOWNSHEND (Townshend) (1) – half-brother Lord John b 1962

TWEEDDALE (Hay) (3) [+1] – brother (Lord) Alistair b 1955; half-brothers Lord Andrew b 1959, Lord Hamish b 1959 [Rory EH Hay b 1993 son of Lord Andrew likely to bear courtesy title of Lord]

WATERFORD (Beresford) (4) – son Lord Marcus b 1990; brothers Lord Charles b 1960, Lord James b 1965; uncle Lord Patrick b 1934

WINCHESTER (Paulet) (2) – son Lord Richard b 1971; brother Lord Timothy b 1944  (raised to rank of Marquess’s son by Royal Warrant 1970)

ZETLAND ((Dundas) (3) – son Lord James b 1967; brothers Lord David b 1945, Lord Richard b 1951

On Saturday, 25 February 2017 16:44:36 UTC, colinp wrote: