Question of Precedence

[Windemere]

I've heard that the daughter of a Peer who marries a Commoner retains the title of her birth, but the daughter of a Peer who marries another Peer relinquishes her birth title and acquires the title that accompanies her husband's peerage. Is that correct ?

And so, if theoretically the daughter of a Duke marries a Commoner, does she retain the precedence of a Duke's daughter. And if the daughter of a Duke marries an Earl, does she automatically become a Countess ?  If this is so, does the daughter married to a Commoner have a higher precedence than her sister married to an Earl ?  Thanks for any information that's available.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

The 3 sisters of the present Duke of Westminster, Lady Tamara, Lady Edwina and Lady Viola Grosvenor, all married commoners.  They have all retained their courtesy titles.  The only difference is that their surname is now their married surname-- Van Cutsem, Snow and Roberts, respectively.

To take it a step further, Princess Alexandra of Kent, the daughter of a royal duke, retained her title as well, even though she married a commoner (second son of an Earl).  Her title is HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy, as her husband was given a knighthood.

Brooke

[S. S.]

The daughters of a duke are born with the precedence of a marchioness. The younger sons of dukes rank only as earls.

Similarly, the younger sons of a marquess are born with the precedence of a viscount, but daughters are born with that of a countess.

The younger sons of an earl are born with the precedence of a baron, but daughters are born with that of a viscountess and so on and so forth.

This is why an earl’s daughters are styled as Lady, while their brothers, except the eldest son, are styled as the Honorable.

The eldest son of course outranks both in each step of the peerage in fact they are accorded precedence one step down from their own parentage. 

Eldest sons of duke ranks as a marquess, eldest son of a marquess as an earl, eldest son of an earl as a viscount, eldest son of a viscount as a baron and the eldest son of a baron above that of knights (thus the Hon ABC son of the Baron XYZ ranks higher than a knight of the garter!). 

Wikipedia's list on precedence for England and Wales will illustrate how women are ranked one after another: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_precedence_in_England_and_Wales#Ladies

The probable reason Valentine Heywood gives in his British Titles is that sons succeeded to land in seniority provided there was no issue from elder brothers, but since daughters’ claims were co-equal they all ranked as heirs and thus daughters were accorded the precedence of an eldest son.

 

Suppose the Duke of London has 3 daughters, viz. Lady A, Lady B and Lady C.

Lady A marries the Earl of X.

Lady B marries the Viscount Y.

Lady C marries a commoner named John Smith who has no peerage.

 

Out of these three women, Lady C ranks as the highest after marriage since her precedence is higher than her husband's and retains her. The other two actually drop down in precedence since the women now derive precedence from their husbands. Similarly if Lady C remained unmarried while her two sisters married the two aforementioned peers, she would still outrank them. 

 To answer your other questions, the precedence the lady derives from her father is retained even during marriage, depending on who she married, she either elevates or is demoted  as illsutrated above.

If Lady A who married the Earl of X divorced her husband, she can no longer have the precedence that comes with a countess and would thus revert back to that as the daughter of a duke, their birthright precedence does not change (as far as I am aware). 

 The excerpt from Heywood will probably answer all your questions.

S.S.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

As for a daughter of a Duke marrying an Earl, we have a recent case that's close enough.

Lady Violet Manners, the daughter of the current Duke of Rutland married Viscount Garnock, the son and heir of the Earl of Lindsay.  Since her marriage, she has been styled Viscountess Garnock, and will become the Countess of Lindsay when her husband succeeds to the Earldom.

Again, taking it one step further, Princess Margaret was the daughter of a King.  When she married the Earl of Snowdon, she became, HRH The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon.

Brooke