Knee repair

[Alex R]

 IMG_0389.HEIC

 IMG_0392.HEIC

 IMG_0396.MOV

Hello friends,

The middle knee on port side of my P40 seems to have detached from the hull. I'm going to have it glassed back, but wondering if anyone has encountered this problem and have you re engineered the knees at all? extended them further down the hull by adding glass? Thanks!

[Michael Moradzadeh]

Check in with Bill Schmidt on WindWitch

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/CACaswax0n4kRv%2Bq5sB4U49OdGgCwYpXpOX%2BNMduCR-0w%2BJdLQw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Scott Williams]

Hi Alex,

Sorry to hear about your bad knee. I have been through the knee rebuild myself two years ago so can help you with the process. Interestingly it was my port mid knee also that pulled from the hull. 

Regards, Scott

"Wayfarer"

[Keith York]

Mine 3.  Just starting the repair now.

Keith

"Papasierra"

[Waltskis]

We’ll, let’s make it 4.  

After a refit in Port Townsend Shipwrights Co op, including new standing rigging and chain plates, the knee movement emerged.  The movement doesn’t seem related to the new rig; the chain plates are securely mounted on the knees.  PTSC inspected the knee itself and found sound wood within the fiberglass encasement with no elongation of the original bolt holes.  The new chainplates were patterned after the old so all stresses are the same as original.  All new bolts were used and torqued securely.  

In my case, the deck “humps up” under the cap shrouds when lightly loaded from sailing (<9 degrees heel) at both both port and stbd knees. The chain plates are securely mounted to the knees.  Something has to be moving, and the knees are the only thing there. To complete the inspection, I’ll obviously need to remove the interior teak wall paneling which hides the joint in question.

I’d be grateful for more information from those of you who have gone through this, and the method/technique you used to re-secure the knees to the hull.  I’m only now just starting the work and can modify my approach to match the best means and methods.  

Walter Heins

P-40 Golden Eagle (1983)

[er...@yogapura.com]

Hey Walter,

My P40 had a similar issue with the same knee.

The repair involved modifying the chainplates on that knee by including an appendage for an extra through bolt (see below) which was affixed to a tie rod that was then through-bolted to the bulkhead below the pullman berth.

I’ve included a drawing of the re-designed chainplate as well as where the tie rod affixes to the bulkhead.

Happy to answer questions if it would help.

Good luck!

Eric

 

 

Eric Walrabenstein
Director, Yoga Pura

15440 N 7^th Street, Suite 1
Phoenix, AZ 85022

(602) 843-7872

 

 

 

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com <passpor...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Waltskis <walt...@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:47 AM
To: Passport Owners <passpor...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Passport] Knee repair

We’ll, let’s make it 4.  

After a refit in Port Townsend Shipwrights Co op, including new standing rigging and chain plates, the knee movement emerged.  The movement doesn’t seem related to the new rig; the chain plates are securely mounted on the knees.  PTSC inspected the knee itself and found sound wood within the fiberglass encasement with no elongation of the original bolt holes.  The new chainplates were patterned after the old so all stresses are the same as original.  All new bolts were used and torqued securely.  

 

In my case, the deck “humps up” under the cap shrouds when lightly loaded from sailing (<9 degrees heel) at both both port and stbd knees. The chain plates are securely mounted to the knees.  Something has to be moving, and the knees are the only thing there. To complete the inspection, I’ll obviously need to remove the interior teak wall paneling which hides the joint in question.

 

I’d be grateful for more information from those of you who have gone through this, and the method/technique you used to re-secure the knees to the hull.  I’m only now just starting the work and can modify my approach to match the best means and methods.  

 

Walter Heins

P-40 Golden Eagle (1983)

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 8:47:50 PM UTC-8 Keith York wrote:

Mine 3.  Just starting the repair now.

 

Keith

"Papasierra"

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7 Scott Williams wrote:

Hi Alex,

 

Sorry to hear about your bad knee. I have been through the knee rebuild myself two years ago so can help you with the process. Interestingly it was my port mid knee also that pulled from the hull. 

 

Regards, Scott

"Wayfarer"

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 11:17:52 PM UTC+8 Michael Moradzadeh wrote:

Check in with Bill Schmidt on WindWitch

 

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:42 AM Alex R <alexbu...@gmail.com> wrote:

 IMG_0389.HEIC

 IMG_0392.HEIC

 IMG_0396.MOV

Hello friends,

 

The middle knee on port side of my P40 seems to have detached from the hull. I'm going to have it glassed back, but wondering if anyone has encountered this problem and have you re engineered the knees at all? extended them further down the hull by adding glass? Thanks!

 

 

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/CACaswax0n4kRv%2Bq5sB4U49OdGgCwYpXpOX%2BNMduCR-0w%2BJdLQw%40mail.gmail.com.

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com

.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/56376fbf-ba78-4d9a-997d-005b7f786452n%40googlegroups.com.

[Matthew Davidson]

Walter

I saw your Passport 40 Golden Eagle on the hard at the PT Coop when we sailed up there last month.

 

Here is a document I assembled from participant conversations on the “Passport 40 Sailing Owners Group” Facebook Page. There are a bunch of fixes and reference “PDF files” saved at the top of the FB Page for owners to read up on how others have been dealing with this particular issue. There are many helpful reference files saved for other common “repeat P40 issues” as well.

 

It seems all of the older P40’s and P42’s are at (or near) the Original Knee maturity threshold. There have been a great many owners now experiencing the same problem you are facing. I know of at least 5 other owners going through this process in the last year or two.

 

We plan on replacing all 6ea of ours on Wildflower this winter as a pro-active maneuver to get ahead of this issue and avoid bigger consequences in the future.

 

Attached is the File saved on the Facebook Group.  

 

Matthew A Davidson - President 

ANTEC CORPORATION 

Box 1609, North Bend, WA 98045

Mat...@AntecCorporation.com

C: 206-660-1311, O: 425-888-9090

 

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com <passpor...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Waltskis
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2023 11:48 AM
To: Passport Owners <Passpor...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Passport] Knee repair

 

We’ll, let’s make it 4.  

After a refit in Port Townsend Shipwrights Co op, including new standing rigging and chain plates, the knee movement emerged.  The movement doesn’t seem related to the new rig; the chain plates are securely mounted on the knees.  PTSC inspected the knee itself and found sound wood within the fiberglass encasement with no elongation of the original bolt holes.  The new chainplates were patterned after the old so all stresses are the same as original.  All new bolts were used and torqued securely.  

 

In my case, the deck “humps up” under the cap shrouds when lightly loaded from sailing (<9 degrees heel) at both both port and stbd knees. The chain plates are securely mounted to the knees.  Something has to be moving, and the knees are the only thing there. To complete the inspection, I’ll obviously need to remove the interior teak wall paneling which hides the joint in question.

 

I’d be grateful for more information from those of you who have gone through this, and the method/technique you used to re-secure the knees to the hull.  I’m only now just starting the work and can modify my approach to match the best means and methods.  

 

Walter Heins

P-40 Golden Eagle (1983)

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 8:47:50 PM UTC-8 Keith York wrote:

Mine 3.  Just starting the repair now.

 

Keith

"Papasierra"

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7 Scott Williams wrote:

Hi Alex,

 

Sorry to hear about your bad knee. I have been through the knee rebuild myself two years ago so can help you with the process. Interestingly it was my port mid knee also that pulled from the hull. 

 

Regards, Scott

"Wayfarer"

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 11:17:52 PM UTC+8 Michael Moradzadeh wrote:

Check in with Bill Schmidt on WindWitch

 

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:42 AM Alex R <alexbu...@gmail.com> wrote:

 IMG_0389.HEIC

 IMG_0392.HEIC

 IMG_0396.MOV

Hello friends,

 

The middle knee on port side of my P40 seems to have detached from the hull. I'm going to have it glassed back, but wondering if anyone has encountered this problem and have you re engineered the knees at all? extended them further down the hull by adding glass? Thanks!

 

 

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/CACaswax0n4kRv%2Bq5sB4U49OdGgCwYpXpOX%2BNMduCR-0w%2BJdLQw%40mail.gmail.com.

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/PassportOwners/1CVY8qF-rMA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/56376fbf-ba78-4d9a-997d-005b7f786452n%40googlegroups.com.

[John Baudendistel]

Hi there.  

You all should correct the below mis-information.  The P42 is a Stan Huntingford design, not a Bob Perry design.  The P42 does NOT have Knees.  I owned one for 25 years so I would know.  

The P42 Chainplates are "encapsulated into the hull" for those who want to know. 

John Baudendistel.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/MW4PR10MB586370B7F7AE60FFEB479C75D039A%40MW4PR10MB5863.namprd10.prod.outlook.com.

--

Thanks, 

John Baudendistel

jo...@ets247.com

[Marty McOmber]

Hi all,

As a helpful data point involvong the folks experiencing the port knee issue, do you all have the Pullman birth?

As I understand it, that knee needed to be shortened to accommodate the berth. 

I have the P40 V berth and am wondering if there are an any particularly vulnerable knees for my configuration. 

Thanks!

Oh and I pass right by Golden Eagle on your way out of Boat Haven at Port Townsend in late June. Small Passport world!

 Best,

Marty McOmber 

On Jul 19, 2023, at 12:58 PM, Matthew Davidson <mat...@anteccorporation.com> wrote:



<~WRD0000.jpg>

 IMG_0389.HEIC

<~WRD0000.jpg>

 IMG_0392.HEIC

<~WRD0000.jpg>

 IMG_0396.MOV

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/MW4PR10MB586370B7F7AE60FFEB479C75D039A%40MW4PR10MB5863.namprd10.prod.outlook.com.

<P40 Knee Replacement Notes and Findings for Reference.pdf>

[Waltskis]

Thank you Eric and Matthew for your helpful replies.  At least now I have something for ideas and suggestions.  It indeed is a challenge but one I think can be surmounted.  Since the amidships bulkhead is adjacent to the knee, and since some have utilized the bulkhead in their solution, can you tell me the composition and thickness of the bulkhead?  

And, by the way, there has been a lot of water intrusion at the cap shroud knees.  Once it started moving the intrusion got worse.  That can’t have been good for the plywood core in the construction of these structures.  

I’ll follow up as I get further into this.

To answer Marty’s question, yes, Golden Eagle has the Pullman berth layout.  

Walter Heins

P-40 Golden Eagle

[jmpullara]

Should add that still to be done is cosmetic trim work around backing plates visible in main cabin. More photos 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2023, at 10:52 PM, jmpullara <jmpu...@yahoo.com> wrote:

FWIW I have a Pullman version (1984 hull #50) and I’m almost certain that port and starboard knees are identical in size.

I preemptively reinforced mid knees using teak members milled to fit, then bonded with epoxy between knee and bulkhead. Then through bolting. Knees had already been rebuilt using G10 to replace soggy plywood cores followed by reglassing.

<image0.jpeg>

<image1.jpeg>

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2023, at 4:46 PM, Waltskis <walt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you Eric and Matthew for your helpful replies.  At least now I have something for ideas and suggestions.  It indeed is a challenge but one I think can be surmounted.  Since the amidships bulkhead is adjacent to the knee, and since some have utilized the bulkhead in their solution, can you tell me the composition and thickness of the bulkhead?  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/ca576ab8-0136-483d-b939-80a424ea799dn%40googlegroups.com.

[cmcri...@yahoo.com]

Hello everyone,

I'm Tim Ennis, I purchased "Yaringa"  a 1985 P40 ,Pullman birth, June 2022 and spent the last year upgrading for off grid sailing. June 2023 I fininshed and planned a 3 week shakedown trip with 2 buddy boats. A week before leaving I finally got a rigger to tune the rig, ( rigging Survey suggested tune rigging) my rigger told me the rigging was 0 to 3% ( very loose) he set it to 12% ( wow, big difference) never made any noise and leeward shrouds were never " loose" under sail. I was surprised, the rigging, mast step (replaced  2020) and chain plates (replaced 2016). Did not expect to hear the rigging was that loose. I left Ventura Cal. for Catalina (11 hour sail, winds 8 to 12 knots, beam to starboard 1/4 most of the day, saw 17 knots for the last hour and a half on starboard 1/4, swell 3 to 6 feet ), Got a mooring in Emerald Bay, everythig was fine, one thing I really love about this boat is how quite it is, it doesn't pop and crackle inside. The next day we took off in the morning in the dingy for the day, when I returned that evening the boat was crackling and popping inside. I found a crack in in the mid ship bulkhead on the port side , Inside the forward cabinet. After further inspection the port side center chain plate knee has pulled away from the hull at the bottom. The tension from the rigging used the knee as a pry bar lifting up on the port deck, cracking the bulkhead, I've loosen the rigging enough to allow the crack to close up and to allow everything to settle back. I'm working with a rigger and boat yard now at the planning stage. I would really appreciate information on how other passport 40 owners made they're repairs. 

Thank you for your help, Tim

[Waltskis]

For the good of the order, I created a video of my cap shroud chainplate knee repair.  Note that both port and starboard knees were repaired but the video shows just the port side.  My 1983 P-40 has the Pullman berth interior.  You may see my video by opening this link: 

 

https://clipchamp.com/watch/3emY1QebnKB

(Copy and paste into your browser)

I initially noticed the structural failure when the deck "humped up" about 1/8" - 1/4" under load from the cap shroud.  Yikes!  That meant that the deck was holding down the chainplate.   After removing the interior paneling and digging out the hull liner, I found the knee delaminated from the hull; that is, the tabbing had failed.  

The structural repair theory hinges on the force vector of the chainplate under load.  The vector is nearly vertical despite the (diagonal) shape of the chainplate.  This creates a moment that pulls the knee away from the hull. 

The repair method was to repair and enhance the tabbing and add a strut to connect the knee to the amidship bulkhead.  To fail, the strut would have to rake its four bolts through the bulkhead, an unlikely thing to happen in 3/4" plywood.  IMHO, it is now stronger than the original.

Prior to designing and effecting this repair, I benefitted from a few other P-40 owners who shared photos of their repairs.  By hybridizing their ideas I came up with a repair and enhancement that allows the original interior finishes to be reinstalled.  (The interior paneling was destroyed in removing it, but I can replace it in kind).  I also feel better about having more than just tabbing to hold down the chainplate.  

The project, both knees, took me 6 days of dirty hell.  I did it alone, with handyman skills and hand tools.  The strut was 18" long and ripped to fit  the groove between the knee and bulkhead.  One must chamfer at least one edge of the strut so it can fit down deep in the groove.  If I were to do it again, I probably would lengthen the strut by 4" - 6", but the longer it is the harder it is to install.   

Best of luck to anyone doing this.  It was a one-off and it worked well, so I guess it has promise for the professional and DIYer alike.

Contact me if you want to chat more about this project.  

Walter Heins

s/v Golden Eagle, P-40