Limited Space Question

[Ron Clark KW7IBE]

I have a question with a limited space apartment how hard would it be to do VHF/UHF SSB?

I am in a second-story apartment with attic access, I do have a GP-3 in the attic I use for FM VHF/UHF.  the only VHF SSB rig I have is my IC-706MKII, which I hardly hear anybody the few times I tuned in to a 2m SSB net. with the fun I have been having with FT-8 on HF,  I thought VHF might be fun too.

So question one is it posable and two should I get a more capable radio or go the transverter route, seems like the messy way to go.

For a more capable radio, I have been looking at the IC-9700. having better SSB and the ability to work satellites. I've been wanting to give that a go too.

any recommendations?

R

KW7IBE

[Ray W7GLF]

I see you are in Vancouver WA so your best bet is hearing stations in Portland.  On Tuesday night K0JJ runs the 144.240 net out of Portland.  There is nothing wrong with IC706MkIIG as a radio (I use one all of the time in my car on 2 meter SSB) however I expect it is not very good at doing satellites because you cannot listen on one band while transmitting on the other,.  I think you would also have to depend on a computer program to do Doppler correction on SSB since you can't hear yourself.

As far as hearing the stations on the net the fist thing I would recommend is to get a horizontally polarized antenna in the attic and make sure you can at least point it South..  Of course pointing North would also be nice.  Being in an attic will definitely attenuate reception but something like a 4 or 5 element 2 meter antenna mounted horizontally will make a big difference over the GP-3.

I know Arrow makes small 2 meter beam A146-4S as will as Diamond A144S5 .  I expect either one will work if they will fit in your attic.

[Ed Cole]

Ron,

If you can install a 2m antenna on the roof, that will make a big
difference on both Rx and Tx, especially if a yagi with rotator can be
installed. I guess routing coax and rotor cable might be an issue in an
apartment.

I bought an 7-element M2 yagi (2m7) a few years ago and that probably
would not be too large to put up. If you can handle a 10-element yagi
is will work even better.

If a yagi is not permitted then get one of the high-gain Diamond or
Comet dual-band base verticals (bigger is more gain). Using a VHF/UHF
diplexer one can run one coax to such a vertical (I do that with my
vertical).

I recently bought a IC-9700 and it does well using the internal preamp
on both 144 and 432, so an external preamp is not needed. The
IC-706MKII is an old radio and probably does not have a low NF preamp
making it difficult to receive. So if you can afford to get an IC-9700,
it will probably work much better (it runs 88w on 2m and 65w on 432).

I upgraded from an old FT-736R which is a fine radio (but not as
versatile for modes other than CW/SSB/FM). Also only 25w.

For satellite ops two yagi would be optimum (but would need an az-el
rotator for best sat use). Lesser choice would be the M2 Eggbeaters
which require no rotator (but two feedlines).

73, Ed - KL7UW
I work stations 70-miles away with the IC-9700 and a single 11-element
yagi at 45-foot.

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[Ed Cole]

Oh, forgot that 2m-SSB is horizontal down there, so the vertical
antennas would not be a choice. Also attic location is not as good at
the roof-top but may be your only option. Hopefully building is wood
and roof not metal.

A light weight rotator would give you better operation than fixed in one
direction (assuming there is room to rotate it).

GL Ed-KL7UW

On 11/14/2021 9:19 PM, Ron Clark KW7IBE wrote:

[Dave Fisher]

Another satellite antenna option would be the M2 Eggbeaters for VHF and UHF.

These work for satellites, are omnidirectional, and will also work for down here on land (terrestrial use they call it).

I’ve used them for satellites mounted above the roof and they do work.

I have a friend (N7EQF) who uses these mounted in his attic and they work for satellites there too.

The attic mount is a compromise as it would be better if they were on top the roof.

 

And of course Eggbeaters are a compromise as a pair of M2 Leo-Pack UHF/VHF yagis on a AZ/EL rotator works much better.

Some hams have used the yagi choice, with just an AZimuth type rotator and Elevation fixed at 15 degrees, on their balcony.

They are limited to Just what they can see out there balconies.

 

A budget option for Yagi’s is to build your own.

Google this call – “WA5VJB Cheap Yagi’s” for many easy and cheap designs (yes cheap, less than $10 for a completed yagi)

Here is a quick link   http://www.fredspinner.com/W0FMS/CheapYagi/vjbcy.html

 

The ICOM IC-9700 is a great radio for satellite use.

I use mine with SatPC32 for radio doppler control.

I also use the rotator controller from CSN Technologies.

 

Dave  KG0D

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[Lonney]

If you want a simple horizontal antenna to build in an afternoon out of scrap / hardware store items take a look at https://lonneys-notebook.blogspot.com/2021/04/2m-horizontal-dipole-stack.html

Two dipole stacked (some extra gain, and suppresses the higher angle lobes), bi-directional, 75 ohm coax meets half way between the dipoles, you see 44 J0 ohms, perfect for 50 ohm coax to radio.

I use one of these for short time while I still had my IC-7100, difference between other horizontal stations and my GP-15 was S1 to S9+.

Lonney

K1LH

On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 10:19:51 PM UTC-8 Ron Clark KW7IBE wrote:

[Steve Sutfin]

Another possibility:  https://elkantennas.com/product/dual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna/

73, Steve K7DNA

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[Mike Lewis]

As a CCR challenged station here are some ideas for you. 

 

I use the Elk dual band in my attic pointed at Snoqualmie pass.   It is near the attic end wall so only has to pass through dry wood siding and the occasional 2x4 as there is no plywood layer there.   It works quite well.   It is broad enough to include a range of mountains and peaks to work the bounce.  I have no direct path to Mt Rainier or points south to West so I have to leverage the bounce.  

 

Adding a preamp next to the antenna and a power amp (remote if there is power) helps make up for the lack of raw metal in the air and permits running smaller coax you may have to use to get into the attic.  I have a 1” PVC pipe in my wall (fortunately) near my radios so I pulled some runs of LMR240 from my shack in the basement to the attic.  The 1^st part of my HF long wire, a 6M wire dipole, and the Elk dual band LPDA live in the attic. 

 

Later on I mounted a 144-1296 LPDA (about 5ft long) hanging under my deck, also typically pointed to Snoqualmie pass.  On 1296 I hung stacked 3ft loop yagis also pointed to the Pass.  With no rotator I would run outside and manually turn the antennas as needed, mostly to Mt Baker to my NE.  This is not convenient so I pointed one of the loop yagis at Mt Baker, the other at Snoqualmie Pass and was able to work most everyone.   You can so the same with 2 short VHF antennas. 

 

Because I had limited vertical space a 144-1296 LPDA paired up with a high power version 5-band transverter from Q5 gets me on all VHF bands to 1296.   The transverter is located near the antenna, only a ¼” coax for 28Mhz IF and a band control cable go outside the shack to is.

 

Today I still have the attic antennas in use for secondary radios.  I now use large amps and preamps near the antennas and the same LPDA and loop yagis on a ground mounted rotator with 10ft mast next to my deck, positioned just out of view to all except one neighbor who is never there.  I still have limited horizontal and vertical space to hide this contraption to keep it out of view but running 500W it cannot live in the attic for RF safety reasons and to rotate it.

 

 

Mike

K7MDL  EL87sm & CN88sf

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pnwvhfs/2FFD2AE4-B5EA-4CEB-AB5A-6CCFD2A52CB8%40mind.net.

[Rick Begeman]

"I know Arrow makes a small 2 meter beam A146-4S as well as Diamond A144S5 .  I expect either one will work if they will fit in your attic."

I have a pair of these cheap small 4 element beams to increase gain. You need just a piece of 75Ω to make a matching harness.

Todays attics. most seem to have trusses which makes placing an antenna tough. You will be  assembling the antenna in place. Not a job to be done on a warm day!

--

RickB  503 314 7222

[cwfinge...@gmail.com]

Ron,

I lived in an apartment for a year before moving into a new house. I used a Larsen duo band 2/70 mobile mag mount antenna on a large iron frying pan. I was on the third floor. No need to get into the attic. I either set it up near the window or on the balcony. I ran 50 watts 2 meter SSB and was able to make many QSOs . Be aware you might cause some QRM on stereos, TVs or other electronics in near by apartments. 

Bill N7EU

Central Point OR

On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 10:19:51 PM UTC-8 Ron Clark KW7IBE wrote:

[Ed Cole]

Mike and all:

Since I assume Ron has a short coax run to the attic, LMR-240 might
suffice if making an access hole is a problem (But he already has a coax
(unknown type) to his GP3).

I suggested in a direct e-mail considering the use of a coax switch unit
in the attic to gain access to several VHF.UHF antennas with only the
addition of the control wire.

A good friend (and satellite operator) KL7XJ runs an Elk antenna on
144/432 on his tower to work 70-miles up north. He does not get quite
as good result as i get with my KLM-11 yagi (KLM-22c using only
11-elements).

On satellite he has x-yagi's on 144/432 mounted on a Yaesu az-el rotator
but also has a pair of the M2 Eggbeaters (which require no tracking). I
gather they work well on the sat's.

If Ron chooses to get an IC-9700, my experience is the internal preamp
is very close to using a mast-mount preamp (I have both). I have
50-foot run of LDF4-50 connected to 30-foot of LMR-600 on the tower,
then 20-foot of LMR-400 around the rotator to the KLM11. That is 1.35
dB line loss from the antenna to the IC-9700 so definitely raises
effective NF (to est 0.7+1.35=2.05 dB).

Yet that hears almost as well as using a 0.18 dBNF preamp at the base of
the tower with 0.9 dB line loss. In fact I usually do not run the
remote preamp since the IC-9700 hears so well. My point is if Ron gets
an IC-9700 ext preamps or amps will not be needed (in my experience).
Running less than 50-foot of LMR-240 will not add significant loss to
compromise the radio's NF or sensitivity (but probably a concern using
an IC706).

I previously used a venerable old FT-736R (which is known for
exceptional receiver). I don't miss it using the IC-9700.

If not doing mw ops or eme with the IC-9700, the unmodified radio works
fine. But do upgrade freq stability if considering running eme with it.
I bought the Bodnar adapter and a PLL board to use ext 10-MHz, but
have yet to install them. I will not use the IC-9700 on eme as I have a
K3 +DEMI transverters and super-low NF preamps for that.

73, Ed - KL7UW
QRV on 6m-eme with 2LFA 7-elem yagis+1000w
2m-eme array under re-construction

On 11/15/2021 9:43 AM, Mike Lewis wrote:
> As a CCR challenged station here are some ideas for you.
>
> I use the Elk dual band in my attic pointed at Snoqualmie pass.   It is
> near the attic end wall so only has to pass through dry wood siding and
> the occasional 2x4 as there is no plywood layer there.   It works quite
> well.   It is broad enough to include a range of mountains and peaks to
> work the bounce.  I have no direct path to Mt Rainier or points south to
> West so I have to leverage the bounce.
>
> Adding a preamp next to the antenna and a power amp (remote if there is
> power) helps make up for the lack of raw metal in the air and permits
> running smaller coax you may have to use to get into the attic.  I have
> a 1” PVC pipe in my wall (fortunately) near my radios so I pulled some

> runs of LMR240 from my shack in the basement to the attic.  The 1^st

> part of my HF long wire, a 6M wire dipole, and the Elk dual band LPDA
> live in the attic.
>
> Later on I mounted a 144-1296 LPDA (about 5ft long) hanging under my
> deck, also typically pointed to Snoqualmie pass.  On 1296 I hung stacked
> 3ft loop yagis also pointed to the Pass.  With no rotator I would run
> outside and manually turn the antennas as needed, mostly to Mt Baker to
> my NE.  This is not convenient so I pointed one of the loop yagis at Mt
> Baker, the other at Snoqualmie Pass and was able to work most everyone.
>   You can so the same with 2 short VHF antennas.
>
> Because I had limited vertical space a 144-1296 LPDA paired up with a
> high power version 5-band transverter from Q5 gets me on all VHF bands
> to 1296.   The transverter is located near the antenna, only a ¼” coax
> for 28Mhz IF and a band control cable go outside the shack to is.
>
> Today I still have the attic antennas in use for secondary radios.  I
> now use large amps and preamps near the antennas and the same LPDA and
> loop yagis on a ground mounted rotator with 10ft mast next to my deck,
> positioned just out of view to all except one neighbor who is never
> there.  I still have limited horizontal and vertical space to hide this
> contraption to keep it out of view but running 500W it cannot live in
> the attic for RF safety reasons and to rotate it.
>
> Mike
>
> K7MDL  EL87sm & CN88sf
>

> *From:* pnw...@googlegroups.com <pnw...@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf
> Of *Steve Sutfin
> *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2021 11:42
> *To:* roncl...@gmail.com
> *Cc:* PNWVHFS <pnw...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [PNWVHFS] Limited Space Question
>
> Another possibility:
> https://elkantennas.com/product/dual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna/
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Felkantennas.com%2Fproduct%2Fdual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5176abc297f849094bab08d9a856ca5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637725913056613816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qLE8b6YLHotTzHhaQuPB%2FsTnuX69qN5Fj0PhGwXn%2BGI%3D&reserved=0>

>
> 73, Steve K7DNA
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2021, at 10:19 PM, Ron Clark KW7IBE <roncl...@gmail.com

> <mailto:roncl...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I have a question with a limited space apartment how hard would it
> be to do VHF/UHF SSB?
>
> I am in a second-story apartment with attic access, I do have a GP-3
> in the attic I use for FM VHF/UHF.  the only VHF SSB rig I have is
> my IC-706MKII, which I hardly hear anybody the few times I tuned in
> to a 2m SSB net. with the fun I have been having with FT-8 on HF,  I
> thought VHF might be fun too.
>
> So question one is it posable and two should I get a more capable
> radio or go the transverter route, seems like the messy way to go.
>
> For a more capable radio, I have been looking at the IC-9700. having
> better SSB and the ability to work satellites. I've been wanting to
> give that a go too.
>
> any recommendations?
>
> R
>
> KW7IBE
>
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[Ron Clark]

Wow, thanks for all the info. Satellites seem quite do able and ssb there a good shot of things working. 

I am luck to have the attic access in my rooms closet, I just put the coax between the cover and the opening.. being just a peice of sheetrock it seemed lite enough not to punch the coax. On the GP-3 i am running 50ft of LMR400 i wished it was just 5ft longer. Any more anntenas I all going to be 75ft maybe 100ft depending on the location I set everything up at.

Looks like I been convinced of getting a IC-9700, and if I want to do 220 I'll get a transverter and use the ic-7300. If the build is anything like the 7300 I'll be pretty happy with it besides the drift that I might have to fix if its a real problem.  I had only one problem with the 7300 and I think I got some rf inside. It got all strange while I trying out different conferences on my ah-4. It all a sudden had high swr on all band even into a dummy load. I could not do anything till the next weekend so it sat off and unplugged for a week. The its been fine since.

Any recommendations on a remote anntena switch?

After I posted this thread last night I came across satellite APRS, I had no idea that existed and I been using APRS for years. I did know about the ISS just not sats. I really want to see if I can pick up that satellite now.

R 

KW7IBE 

CN85

[Lonney]

Put CM / current chokes on the coax and control cable leading away from AH-4, maybe an extra set at radio end. 3/4" Mix 31 snap-ons are good, you can get 8 turns of RG-8X through them, two each on both coax and control cable is a good start. Follow the link I posted above, and search for AH-4 to see an example.

If feeding balanced antennas with AH-4 (I do this with mine), use a 1:1 ATU current balun between AH-4 and balanced line as preferred to force balance. Balun designs make the best.

Otherwise you'll get CM currents back to the rig, and the 7300 (I have one, its my main rig) will not like it much, plus you then have RF in the shack (bad), possible RFI (bad) , more noise getting into your antenna etc via the cables (also bad).

Lonney

K1LH

[Ed Cole]

Ron,

Well I went first to my DXEngineering catalog and got immediate sticker
shock plus apparently the only application for remote antenna switching
is for HF (duh).

So I did a little more searching (on-line) and came up with a 4 antenna
switch which is good up to 250-MHz:
https://communicationlg.com/boutique/en/ameritron/rcs-8v-hf-vhf-uhf-remote-antenna-switch-p1509/

But costs $413.89.

I could design a VHF-only multi-antenna switch box for a lot less using
pcb relays and a 1 uH choke to improve isolation (trick I learned from
W6PQL in his 80w 2m linear amp).

A pcb would have to be designed and made using ExpressPCB. I could have
three boards made for about $60/each. Control board would be a simple
dc rotary switch providing 12vdc to the proper relay. Relays and chokes
and RF panel connectors and a case would be needed. A wile guess that
would end up in the $150 range for parts&shipping.

Probably better idea is to search for a multi-port coax relay on e-bay.
A lot have sma connectors but some have N female connectors. Almost
none with UHF connectors. These usually require 26 to 28vdc but will
work with 20 to 24v. A search of e-bay will reveal the costs ($40-$80
range). Freq range is typically over 1,000 MHz and will handle 100w.

here is one for $19.95 with sma connectors:
Teledyne Microwave CS-38S14-1B Antenna RF Switch 4 Pos 20-30V - Sold by
W5SWL on e-bay.

You would need four sma to UHF jumpers or sma/BNC adapters might fit.
W5SWL sells coax connectors and adapters. If you buy the relay contact
him on e-bay telling him you need sma adapters (five of them) and he may
have them with no extra shipping cost. I buy most of my coax connectors
from him.

73, Ed - KL7UW

> <mailto:pnw...@googlegroups.com> <pnw...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:pnw...@googlegroups.com>> *On Behalf

> > Of *Steve Sutfin
> > *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2021 11:42

> > *To:* roncl...@gmail.com <mailto:roncl...@gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* PNWVHFS <pnw...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:pnw...@googlegroups.com>>

> > *Subject:* Re: [PNWVHFS] Limited Space Question
> >
> > Another possibility:
> >
> https://elkantennas.com/product/dual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna/

> <https://elkantennas.com/product/dual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna/>
>
> >
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> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Felkantennas.com%2Fproduct%2Fdual-band-2m440l5-log-periodic-antenna%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5176abc297f849094bab08d9a856ca5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637725913056613816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qLE8b6YLHotTzHhaQuPB%2FsTnuX69qN5Fj0PhGwXn%2BGI%3D&reserved=0>>
> >
> > 73, Steve K7DNA
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Nov 14, 2021, at 10:19 PM, Ron Clark KW7IBE
> <roncl...@gmail.com <mailto:roncl...@gmail.com>

> >     <mailto:roncl...@gmail.com <mailto:roncl...@gmail.com>>>

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[VA7OTC John D Erskine]

On 2021-11-14 22:19, Ron Clark KW7IBE wrote:
> I have a question with a limited space apartment how hard would it be
> to do VHF/UHF SSB?
>
> I am in a second-story apartment with attic access, I do have a GP-3
> in the attic I use for FM VHF/UHF. the only VHF SSB rig I have is my
> IC-706MKII, which I hardly hear anybody the few times I tuned in to a
> 2m SSB net. with the fun I have been having with FT-8 on HF, I
> thought VHF might be fun too.

Hullo Ron,

I feel your pain. I'm on the top/4th floor of a '70s building. No attic,
however I have an East facing balcony, which somewhat favours working
those of the gang on Puget Snd.

While a 2m 1/2 wave vert. and a discone are on the balcony all the time
I've also put out an Arrow antenna on an old photo tripod from time to
time, sometimes several nights or weeks in a row, usually favouring the
chosen band with horizontal polarisation. (SOTA chasing is vert. Natch.)

The other thing I do is get out -- from the apartment. I operate
portable from the car, or go as a Rover. That way I can put up much
better antennas on a drive-on supported mast.

2m choice jumps from 3 small el. to 9 el; 70cm from 7 small el. to 19
el., with significantly longer booms.

They're also clear of the balcony RF alcove issues, and I often have
full or at any rate fuller horizons.

Portable/mobile I can more readily put _something_ on 6m (FM or SSB)
than at home. 2m and 70cm are in play. 1.25m / 220 MHz is FM on a 1/4
wave whip at the moment, however a Transverter Store . . . transverter
is now on the shelf, close to trial. Antenna bits are on the floor. So
far that's my VHF+ range.

If I had an attic and couldn't fit in a rotating, horz. Yagi I might try
one in the best direction, or if other stns. have good signals, a
halo/horizontal loop. At least one will have appropriate pol. for
SSB/CW/data and an omni signal.

It was pointed out during an on-line presentation last spring that for a
small, directional, multiband antenna for just a couple of ham bands
there was little to be gained with a log periodic. Yes there is lots of
bandwidth, like a discone, however less gain, esp. for price if
commercial, than tuned, resonant antennas, even a two band one. I'm
simply repeating what I heard and what got me thinking away from a LPA
myself.

Re homebrew antennas I found a fab presentation from one of the Club
conferences on the site. Lessee, ah, here:

http://www.pnwvhfs.org/conference/2016/pdf/Rick-KK7B-VHF-Antenna-Design.pdf

Those 222 MHz antenna bits on the floor are for the one as described in
there.

> So question one is it posable and two should I get a more capable
> radio or go the transverter route, seems like the messy way to go.

We've seen useful comparative reports. I'm happy to read them, glad you
asked. I'm chugging on with my FT-857D at the moment, however am
considering a change. A reality check possibly worth visiting is -- this
won't be our last radio purchase. <grin> Use, or get something, or use
both, or or . . .

> For a more capable radio, I have been looking at the IC-9700. having
> better SSB and the ability to work satellites. I've been wanting to
> give that a go too.
> any recommendations?
>
> R
> KW7IBE

I saw word there is/was a Q5 multiband transverter on offer, which got
me thinking. It appears pretty nice as with one IF rig one has multimode
access to 6m, 2m, 1.25m, 70cm, 33cm, and 23cm with 25 W out.

"Work satellites" offers some options. I'm just starting to play, and
it'll be FM until I get antennas for the purpose and some other
understanding worked out. I'm chewing through predictive "tracking"
software choices at the moment (3x on the box as of yesterday), and
noting what I can work from home, how the passes work, etc.

All the best, from the Great Wet North(west) (fortunate to be high and
dry, and powered.)

73, John
--
J. D. Erskine
VA7OTC VA7RCN
CN88hk
Victoria, BC

[Josh Logan]

I modified an Ameritron RCS-8V Remote Ant Switch, https://mfjenterprises.com/products/rcs-8v to use an ESP32 as a WiFi controller for computer based control of the coax switch.

The coax module was not modified, but I put a 4 relay board on the end of the control wires.  One position is not available, but I could always add a 5th relay if needed.

This was mostly because I did not have a control cable that could go from one end of the house to the other, but this idea may be helpful for other setups.

I use a simple web page to turn the relays on and off, but more software control could be implemented.

73, KD7HGL

Josh

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[Ron Clark]

I am glad I was not the only one with sticker shock at the prices at DX Engineering,  because that's the first place I went. Ill into those eBay switches, and see if I can find a data sheet on them.

Thanks for the more info

R

KW7IBE,  73