John 16 and John 17
lory al_moakar
John 16
1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[ a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
The Disciples' Grief Will Turn to Joy
17Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" 18They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? 20I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."
29Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."
31"You believe at last!"[b ] Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
John 17
Jesus Prays for Himself
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 "I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Socrates Demetriades
If someone is interested,
I would really like to hear from you some thoughts /opinions for the line:
John 16:13 " He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he
hears "
some comments:
I really like the deep theological and sophisticate character of John's
book.
Chapters like the John 14 - John 16 are some of my favorites.
How John presents Father/Christ/Spirit is extremely interesting, and it
is also quite interesting to look at how the "trinity" dogma and the
"Christ's nature" dogma was developed based on lines like these. Of
course, the mystery between the lines was not only the source of
dogmatism, but also a source of misunderstandings and disagreements.
Best regards,
socrates
lory al_moakar wrote:
>
>
> John 16
>
> 1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will
> put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone
> who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will
> do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have
> told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I
> warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.
>
>
> The Work of the Holy Spirit
>
> 5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where
> are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with
> grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going
> away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I
> go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world
> of guilt^[ a
> <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=31#fen-NIV-26724a>]
> 31"You believe at last!"^[b
> <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=31#fen-NIV-26747b>]
> Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will
> be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I
> am not alone, for my Father is with me.
>
> 33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In
> this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the
> world."
>
>
>
> John 17
>
>
> Jesus Prays for Himself
>
> 1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father,
> the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
> 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give
> eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal
> life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
> whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing
> the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your
> presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
>
>
> Jesus Prays for His Disciples
>
> 6 "I have revealed you^[a
> <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&version=31#fen-NIV-26755a>]
> to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave
> them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that
> everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the
> words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty
> that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for
> them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me,
> for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.
> And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no
> longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy
> Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave
> me--so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I
> protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has
> been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would
> be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while
> I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my
> joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated
> them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
> 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you
> protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I
> am not of it. 17Sanctify^[b
> <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&version=31#fen-NIV-26766b>]
Shenoda Guirguis
First, I have a linguistic question: What does dogma means? And what does it mean when you say: the Trinity Dogma? Or Christ's nature dogma?
As for verse John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come"
The context of this verse is that: Jesus, after the last supper, is talking to His disciples, and telling them about what is going to happen. He told them that He will leave them, and go to The Father. But He ease their worries that He is departing them, by telling them that The Holy Spirit is coming. And to not let them get confused, or think that The Holy Spirit is another person who has different teachings, He tells them that The Holy Spirit speaks what is according to the Holy Trinity. He used the expression: what He hears, to tell them that He (The Son) will continue talking to them, through The Holy Spirit.
For me, it is clear announcement of The Holy Trinity to be One. That the Comforter will not give different teachings.
Does that make sense?
God bless,
+Sh
-----Original Message-----
From: PC...@googlegroups.com [mailto:PC...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Socrates Demetriades
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: [PCBS] Re: John 16 and John 17
Jose Baiocchi
I don't see that anyone answered your linguistic question, so I'm
sending an answer just in case:
Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas) is the established
belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of
organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed or
doubted. While in the context of religion the term is largely
descriptive, outside of religion its current usage tends to carry a
pejorative connotation -- referring to concepts as being "established"
only according to a particular point of view, and thus one of doubtful
foundation. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma]
You may also want to check:
- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm
Peace,
Jose