Synthetic testosterone questions

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Richard

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Aug 9, 2006, 1:31:45 AM8/9/06
to Oxford Cycling
(1) Synthetic testosterone takes months to leave your bloodstream.
http://www.mbdetox.com/category28/default.html
(Q1) If so, why didn't Landis test positive before or after
stage 17?

(2) Testosterone has to be taken for a long period to get any benefit,
usually 10 weeks.
(Q1) Why would Landis take synthetic testosterone before or
during stage 17 if he could not benefit?
(Q2) If he was using a masking agent what would account for the
one test of 11/1?

(3) The detection time for synthetic testosterone is anywhere from 1
week to 3 months.
http://www.mbdetox.com/category28/default.html
(Q1) Shouldn't officials still be able to test samples taken
before and after stage 17 for synthetic testosterone?

(4) One method which seems ideal for cheating is a sublingual or buccal
tablet. This shows that T/E would return to below 6:1 within 4-6 hours
and below 4:1 within 12-16 hours.
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1280/F7
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1280
(Q1) Can follow up tests be done to detect a masking agent?

Jason

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Aug 9, 2006, 9:52:31 AM8/9/06
to Oxford Cycling
The journal you posted was an interesting read. (I'm not sure everyone
will be able to use the link though, as it might not be for the
'general public.') I hope that over the course of 10 years since it's
publishing, advances have been made. However, since the tests used to
suggest guilt are the same test discussed in the article, I have to
doubt it.

Since I use much of the equipment mentioned, and used for these tests,
I can say, on the level they test for, I'm glad it's not ME who has to
do the tests. Yes one may be able to test for such small quantities
accurately, but consistency is an issue. Also, much of the testing I
do at such small quantities (ppm or ppb -- the nanogram range), is
subject to how I interpret the data. A small change in choice by me
can cause a large difference in the result (just a guess, probably
20-40% difference). And the smaller the concentration of analyte, the
more subject it is to interpretation.

I'm not arguing for or against Landis with that information; I think if
there is a case to be made it won't be against science.

Richard

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Aug 9, 2006, 2:59:35 PM8/9/06
to Oxford Cycling
I've been trying to get my head wrapped around this for several days.
I want to believe Floyd, but his litany of excuses and theories only
make him look guilty. It reminds me of Tyler with his sob story about
an invisible twin. I never believed that pathetic tale. There are also
some uncomfortable similarities between the Landis and Hamilton sagas:
Bad hip/broken shoulder, Team Phonak twice, Jacobs being retained as
council by both, and a stream of denials. I'm also not buying the
tampering theories because "they" had seven years to nail Armstrong
that way. I don't know if the UCI takes samples from everyone before
an event as a control, but they should. There are just a lot of strange
things about this case on both sides. If Floyd is going to prove his
innocence, then he has to get the samples retested by a second lab.
His attorneys also need to address the leaks coming out of the UCI in
violation of their own rules.

Christian Leask

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Aug 9, 2006, 7:02:57 PM8/9/06
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i'll go out on a limb in a warm and fuzzy defense of floyd's litany of excuses. at first, when i heard about a beer or two or jack daniels getting thrown out there, i had two immediate reactions.

1) wow, this fella is fetching hard. this is even better than a vanishing twin theory. soon, cyclists will be citing peer pressure alone.

2) who on earth would go drinking in the middle of the tour, but at the same time, i've read many instances where racers did have champagne or wine at dinner celebrating a stage win that day. considering the calories burned and expended, i can't imagine one or two glasses knocking someone down too much.

outside of that however, look at who we are talking about it. floyd has never been a proven genius of any sort, has been known to mouth off at people in the peloton and walks to his own beat. as you saw from any one of his interviews, he is no media darling nor wordsmith. based on that, i think we have to take what he says somewhat lightly. i'm not exactly defending him, but i am willing to excuse some of his answers just based on the fact that he's not much of a politician and he probably couldn't have been any less prepared in life for the media onslaught.

Richard

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Aug 9, 2006, 9:24:45 PM8/9/06
to Oxford Cycling
Well, I can't argue with you on Floyd's ability do things his way. I
guess all these excuses we've been getting reminds me a little too much
of Richard Virenque just after the Festian Affair broke. I'm just glad
Floyd didn't break down on French TV in a sobbing fit while wearing a
pink polo shirt. I guess if the UCI handled this by the book Floyd
wouldn't have been so unprepared for the media storm. But, if Floyd did
take something then it didn't happen in a vacuum.

I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on this. I really like the
idea of the unlikely Mennonite kid winning the Tour de France. Heck,
what's better is Lemond winning the tour with shotgun pellets lodged in
his heart, Armstrong winning seven times after surviving cancer, and
Landis winning with a dead hip. If the French press doesn't stop
bitching we'll start sending our healthy folks over to race.

Jason

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Aug 9, 2006, 11:24:23 PM8/9/06
to Oxford Cycling
Regarding the alcohol defense he's using (although I didn't hear it in
the Leno interrogation last night). I remember specifically that le
Tour posted as one of their news bulletins which happen by the minute
while the tour is happening that the day before Floyd had traded a
yellow jersey for a 6 pack of beer with a fan on the side of the road.
That's right, traded a yellow jersey for a six pack. I can't remember
what stage that was, so it might not be necessarily relevant to the
failed test stage, but it potentially shows disconcern for drinking
during a race.

That said, based on the above link posted by Richard, the effects of
ethanol on T/E are limited to 8 hours after finishing consumption, and
even at that, the highest effect was a resulting T/E of 6:1 (not nearly
11:1 as Floyd tested).

Regarding Floyd's public demeanor... :) ... he's certianly not capable
with the media like someone we've become accustomed to for the last 7
years. I suppose that's neither here nor there. Let's just say that I
want to believe him, but watching his interview on Leno did not go far
to help that...

Now I'm going to go ride with my vanishing twin...

Ian Jones

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Aug 10, 2006, 8:52:41 AM8/10/06
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"Lemond winning the tour with shotgun pellets lodged in his heart,
Armstrong winning seven times after surviving cancer, and Landis winning
with a dead hip"

we've got one more damaged cyclist to go through, I predict Saul Raisin
to be 2007 TdF champ.

-----Original Message-----
From: Oxford...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Oxford...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 8:25 PM
To: Oxford Cycling
Subject: [OxfordCycling:543] Re: Synthetic testosterone questions


Well, I can't argue with you on Floyd's ability do things his way. I
guess all these excuses we've been getting reminds me a little too much
of Richard Virenque just after the Festian Affair broke. I'm just glad
Floyd didn't break down on French TV in a sobbing fit while wearing a
pink polo shirt. I guess if the UCI handled this by the book Floyd
wouldn't have been so unprepared for the media storm. But, if Floyd did
take something then it didn't happen in a vacuum.

I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on this. I really like the
idea of the unlikely Mennonite kid winning the Tour de France. Heck,

what's better is . If the French press doesn't stop bitching we'll start


sending our healthy folks over to race.


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Steve Valliant

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Aug 10, 2006, 9:57:58 AM8/10/06
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i sprained my ankle last week. what are my chances?

Ian Jones

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Aug 10, 2006, 10:05:07 AM8/10/06
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since you have an L in your name, i'd say your chances are pretty good. Better apply to Phonak, they seem to have great accident recovery programs...

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