2. Bertrand Russell, in the History of Western Philosophy says that
when an
intelligent man expresses a view which seems to us obviously absurd, we should not attempt to prove that it is somehow true, but we should try to understand how it ever came to seem true at that bygone days of history and psychology. But the chauvinist of all faiths, claim to know the Absolute Truth on the basis of Holy testament.
Pl. forgive me for raising these questions but I have worked on for some years.
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Ancient Greek philosophers were trying to understand ‘Natural World’, ‘Natural Order’, ‘Natural Processes’, ‘Basic Element(s) that are basis of entire cosmos’, ‘What are the causal processes that account for the variations (changes) of things that occur’, ‘Origin of Cosmos’ and so on. We can find two philosophical lines of thoughts in ancient Greek philosophers:i. Philosophy that mainly focus on Physical Order of Cosmosii. Philosophy that reflects on Moral Order of Cosmos
what is the real meaning of “Good” that is often used in the philosophy of Plato and why it is called “Good”.
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Dear Dr. Shanta,Thanks for these good questions.Let me start, I hope not impolitely, by questioning your introductory remarks. You write:Ancient Greek philosophers were trying to understand ‘Natural World’, ‘Natural Order’, ‘Natural Processes’, ‘Basic Element(s) that are basis of entire cosmos’, ‘What are the causal processes that account for the variations (changes) of things that occur’, ‘Origin of Cosmos’ and so on. We can find two philosophical lines of thoughts in ancient Greek philosophers:i. Philosophy that mainly focus on Physical Order of Cosmosii. Philosophy that reflects on Moral Order of CosmosThis is a very common way of sketching early Greek philosophy, but I think it’s misleading. It’s true that early Greek thinkers seem “mainly” to focus on a physical order of the cosmos. But there are always moral elements or suggestions in their thinking, as when Thales speaks of “soul” and Anaximander speaks of the infinite “controlling” the cosmos and of the opposites “paying penalty and retribution to each other.” In Pythagoras, Heraclitus, and Parmenides, moral and “physical” issues are much more manifestly intertwined and inseparable.Thus when historians speak of the early Greek “natural philosophers” as anticipating our natural sciences, they are oversimplifying.There is indeed a famous passage in which Plato has Socrates say that he turned away from speculation about the cosmos to thinking about ethics. And perhaps for a while he did. But Plato very quickly rejoined the two topics to each other, because he saw that Socrates’s concern about truth in ethics required an account of truth in general, which would have to apply to nature as well as to human affairs.Plato then gives an explicit argument to show that reality as such is ultimately determined by the Good, and thus by (among other things) moral considerations, so that (if we assume that the “physical” is supposed to be “real”) your (I) and (II) are inseparable from each other.So that you appropriately ask:what is the real meaning of “Good” that is often used in the philosophy of Plato and why it is called “Good”.What is the “Good”? Ah, that is the question alright! Plato mentions two popular theories of the Good: that it is pleasure, and that it is knowledge. (505c) He (through Socrates) comments that everyone admits that there are bad pleasures; and as for knowledge, its advocates go on to specify the important knowledge as knowledge of the good, so “knowledge” as such can’t be the good.Here Plato has Socrates make one of his well-known disavowals of knowledge: “I’m afraid that I won’t be up to it…” (506d)! But he does not, like a skeptic, abandon the topic! Rather, his famous similes of the Sun, the Line, and the Cave are meant to suggest how we go about thinking about what is real in general and what the Good really is. Having finally left the Cave (of familiar theories of the real or the Good as “pleasure” or “knowledge” or whatever) behind him, the former cave-dweller will “be able to see the sun” (516b). Then he will have the answer to your question, “what is the real meaning of the Good”!Plato concludes that “the power to learn is present in everyone’s soul,” but what’s needed is to “turn the whole soul until it is able to study that which is and the brightest thing that is, namely, the one we call the good” (518c). How to “turn” the soul in this way is the issue that the whole Republic addresses.So we shouldn’t expect Plato to give us a cut-and-dried answer to your question, “what is the real meaning of Good?” He has had Socrates tell us that he doesn’t possess a cut-and-dried answer. The common answers (pleasure, knowledge) have been shown to be inadequate, and Plato has nothing so simple to offer in their place.What he does offer us is a description of the whole process whereby we necessarily seek the Good. We criticize and “turn away” from common answers, and continue to explore the issue. And in the process we explore the whole of reality—including animals, plants, mathematics (510)—so as to determine what aspect of it makes it truly real.But your second question, “Why is it called ‘Good,’” does have a simple, cut-and-dried answer. The Good is what everyone wants for themselves. “Nobody is satisfied to acquire things that are merely believed to be good … but everyone wants the things that really are good and disdains mere belief” about this subject (505d). This is why reality, and knowledge of reality, are so important for us. We may or may not care to know what the distance of the sun is from the earth. But everyone wants to know what’s really good, so as to be able to go after that, and not after some illusion.And Plato’s broader point, as I said in previous emails, is that seeking knowledge of what’s really good is what distinguishes a “unified” and self-governing soul from a scattered soul which is governed by influences originating outside it. So that the pursuit of the Good (pursuit of knowledge of it, and thus of it) enables us to be more fully ourselves than we can otherwise be—and thus more real, as ourselves, than we would otherwise be. This is where the Good and the Real turn out to be intimately connected to each other. The Real order of the cosmos is moral as well as physical. The two are ultimately inseparable.And this pursuit of the Good (and thus of Reality) takes us beyond not only our pre-existing opinions but also beyond what we call “ego” and Plato calls thumos. Because opinions and ego merely distract us from whatever Reality and the really Good may be.Plato tells us that the part of the soul that seeks the Good is “more divine” (518e), and that the Good is “superior” even to being “in rank and power” (509b). So he invites us to see what he has described as a search not only for what’s really good (for us) but for the divine as such. Indeed, the two will be the same.
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Not only the bodies of Human beings are animated by immaterial souls but also the body of each and every living entity (8,400,000 species) is animated by immaterial soul [Ref: Brahma Vaivarta Purana].
As you mentioned in your email that,
Soul within the humans could be perceived by existence of the Ego ( Self the "I" within every human being ), innate knowledge of the Creator…..
The Soul can’t be perceived by the existence of the Ego. The Soul is atomic in size and can be properly understood only when we can realize its real origin and purpose of existence.The soul is full of knowledge, or full always with consciousness [Ref. katha-Upanisad 1.2.18]. Therefore consciousness is the symptom of the existence of soul.
This is also confirmed in the Katha-Upanisad (1.2.20) that there are two kinds of souls-namely the minute particle soul (anu-atma) and the Supersoul (the vibhu-atma). “Both the Supersoul [Paramātmā] and the atomic soul [ jīvātmā] are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul.”
You also mention in your email that,
“Once the book of innate moral law is opened (this could be done by only original, genuine & philanthropist philosophers) the basic & fundamental principle of this book is that humans should live peacefully & justice should prevail in all human societies”.
Moral and justice is the main focus of Western Philosophy and Religious system. ‘Moral and Justice’ are necessary for the Peaceful Human Societies but only this cannot help us to realize absolute knowledge and true purpose of human life.
Do we see the God (the Creator) only as Judge of our good and bad deeds? Shall we also not develop love for Him? Because God (the Creator) also loves all His creation and all the souls. How we can also develop that love for God that is also important. A book cannot awaken that love for God in us. We need someone who has real devotion (love) for God and from Him we can get that consciousness of love.
Just reading and self-understanding of a book can’t help us to understand the exact subject-matter of that book. If many people read a book then all of them will get different understanding about that book. Then how one can know the proper meaning and real essence of that book. For this purpose, we need a genuine authority (real Guru) who can personally guide us.
As Dr. Shanta has mentioned in his reply (dated 16.04.2017) to Shri Dhirendra Sharma,
“No one can claim himself/herself a neurosurgeon by a mere reading of different books on neuroscience. By serving under the guidance of an expert neurosurgeon there is a possibility that one can also become a neurosurgeon. Similarly, by a mere reading of certain scriptures no one should claim that he/she has realized the real internal meaning of the truth. There is a proper process of learning and a sincere seeker of truth follows that process properly. In the verse 4.34 of Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā Bhagavān Sri Krishna explains the proper process of learning”.
With regards
Shilpi Saxena
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The focus on physics came with Aristotle, and, imo, from his misunderstanding of Plato. Plato put the right fatal seed in materialism and physicalism. It is not a coincidence that Plato did not take Aristotle as next director of the academy. I think that today, the main line of difference in thinking is between Plato (non materialism) and Aristotle (materialism). Materialism has failed on the mind body problem, and actually has to fail for the mechanist mind-body problem.Best,
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Dear Robert,
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Hi Bruno,You write:The focus on physics came with Aristotle, and, imo, from his misunderstanding of Plato. Plato put the right fatal seed in materialism and physicalism. It is not a coincidence that Plato did not take Aristotle as next director of the academy. I think that today, the main line of difference in thinking is between Plato (non materialism) and Aristotle (materialism). Materialism has failed on the mind body problem, and actually has to fail for the mechanist mind-body problem.Best,I don’t agree that Aristotle is a materialist. Matter is only one of the “four causes” that Aristotle unfolds in his Physics and Metaphysics.
Essence, in his view, is form more than matter.
And he has a theology that resembles Plato’s. (A good recent book on this Lloyd Gerson’s Aristotle and Other Platonists.)
Materialism was represented in ancient Greece by Democritus and Epicurus, and later by the Stoics, not by the Aristotelians.
Hegel had high regard for Aristotle, primarily because he thought Aristotle had preserved what was indispensable in Plato and Greek thought in general. I focus on Plato as a way of bringing out this indispensable truth, which tends to get lost in technicalities in Aristotle’s voluminous writings.
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Bruno,This is rather ad hominem. You may not agree with Aristotle. However, Aristotle was a physicist and a biologist. Plato wasn't. Aristotle also invented formal logic which Plato was not able to do. Aristotle also attempted to formalize ontology and ethics. Only thing Aristotle wasn't was perhaps a mathematician, though he knew a lot of mathematics. Furthermore, as we understand the term 'materialism' today, Aristotle was not a materialist as he accepted the existence of a non material soul. That he gave a materialist explanation of the material world is what made him a scientist like scientists today. However, by positing a final cause and being critical of the Presocratics for not having discussed the formal cause, Aristotle (the Greek) definitely parted from the materialism of the Presocratics (Asians) who were only concerned with the material cause. So, if you are looking for the roots of materialism and want to condemn it and praise Plato for not being a materialist, then you have to go much further back to the Ionians to pin down materialism. For me, Plato, is important for a lot, of which his non-matierialism, if that can be attributed to him, is rather insignificant. The main contributions of Plato are to methodology which makes him the founder of philosophy to some extent.
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Hi Bob,
Bruno
Dear Robert,
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There is a lot in what you have written. I will respond to only some points. I have read all of Plato's dialogues at least once, though in translation. I wish you could cite from some dialogues that Plato was a critique of weak materialism. I really don't know what you mean by weak materialism. The materialism of the Ionians: Thales, Heraclisus and others was a strong materialism. Even Anaxagorus's soul was material.
This is generally accepted by Presocratic scholars. There was no room for mind or soul among these scientists. Plato does take on a critique of Heraclitus in the Theaetetus but it is of the claim that everything is changing and hence relative. It is not a critique of materialism. If anything, Aristotle has a critique of materialism in his critique of the Presocatics for not having discovered the final cause, a cause that comes at the end. Scientists surely do not have any place for such a cause. Ad hominem is ok, even Galileo mocks Aristotle on his stance that there are three types of motion.
As for Pythagoras being influenced by the Orient, what do you mean by "Orient"? Because this has different meanings. For us in India "Orient" means East Asia. For Said perhaps it means all except West Asia. Pythagoras may well have been influenced by India but the more immediate influence of the Ionians was from the south, that is Egypt.
Eurocentric history often marginalizes the influence of Egypt because it is in Africa. Some Indians are also suckers for this racism. I am not. The dates have to be cleared. The Buddhist schools you are referring to are after Pythagoras. One of my mentors, P. T. Raju, who was my father's teacher, wrote a beautiful article on the four cornered negation. He traces its origins to Sanjaya. He is not properly able to date Sanjaya, but when he finds something similar in Parmenides, he places Sanjaya before Parmenides, whereas he could easily have been after or contemporary of Parmenides. I look at it as mutual influences as far as east and west at the time goes as there is evidence that there were West Asian and Greek professors in Indian Universities in ancient times and a foundational influence of Egypt and perhaps Ethiopia on all cultures. This is common sense. Recently they have discovered some writings which are being touted as Jain philosophy, in Ethiopia. Indians of course jump to the conclusion that they went from India to Ethiopia. But it is probably the reverse. There is some evidence that African Historians are working on which claims migration from Ethiopia to India about 4000 years ago. All of this needs to be established. One cannot simply construct history.
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dear Priyedarshi ,
Priyedarshi
Hi Bob,
Bruno
Dear Robert,
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Bruno,Your sense of weak materialism then is a modern notion. If fact these labels taken back to the Presocratics, Plato and Arisstotle really do not make much sense. They are putting the cart before the horse. This is a standard interpretation of Plato that Forms are the only real entities and the rest is illusion.
Plato never says that. That is why I want you to quote from Plato where he says that and not use secondary sources as authority.
Similar things are said about Sankara but some scholars tell me that this is a misreading of Sankara. Gregory Vlastos has an excellent article on degrees of reality in Plato. Plato does not deny the existence of the physical world or sense experience,
it is only they present a different grade of knowledge.
In all the Indian ancient schools of philosophy they accept perception as one source of knowledge. Idealism does not appear till quite late in the history of Indian philosophy.
Plato was definitely not an idelist. Forms are not mental entities.
They are grasped by the mind, not constructed by the Nous.
He was a realist because without acknowledging the existence of universals mathematics was not possible.
Nominalism as opposed to realism appeared much later, perhaps inspired by Aristotle but Aristotle was not a nominalist either.
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dear Priyedarshi ,
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Bruno,Thanks so much for responding to me in a detailed manner. I am not a scholar of Plato but wrote my PhD thesis on Plato and have been teaching if for quite some time. I am not very happy at all with standard intepretations of Plato. It is a tendency of standard interpretations to stand a philosopher on his head and say the opposite of what he intended. This is the case with what the German Idealists did with Kant. Kant went into depression, I have been told, reading some of their works while he was still alive. But as you said you are not really taking about Plato but what some, like Plotinus, and others understand or misunderstand or distort about Plato. That is fine.I am not sure but what you call "weak materialsm" may be similar to what I call "minimal materialism" which is what I find in the Presocratics from Thales to Empedocles.As far as Indian philosophy goes, again I am not a scholar but having returned to India for the past 26 years I listen to enough scholars of Indian philosophy. Popular Indian philosophy is dominated by Advaita, and a lot of this is due to Radhakrishnan's affinity to Advaita. But Advaita is almost at the end of the history of Indian philosophy. If we go to the beginning we have the old Vedantic philosophy and Carvaka materialism which challenged it. then other heterodox schools like Buddhism and Jainism emerged. There were also as many atheistic schools as there were theistic schools even through the middle ages, which may not be the case in the west. This actually created more open ended debates in Indian philosophy among schools and also within each school.Thanks again. I enjoyed reading what you have written.
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Priyedarshi,
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Fifth International Conference
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Bruno,Thanks for the reply and sorry for the delay as I was off for a couple of days. Plato was more of a journalist of philosophy, presenting all the views up to his time. In the Theaetetus he first rejects the hypothesis that knowledge is simply perception. Then he moves on to identifying knowledge with belief or opinion, but since this would make all false beliefs knowledge, he builds in the qualification of true belief. Now, true belief being knowledge would make knowledge a lucky affair. Plato believes that the notion of knowledge should involve some hard work and that is why the condition of account or justification is added.
In mathematics this would be a proof and you know how difficult proofs are to come by.
Did Fermat know his last theorem since he could not prove it. Well, he said that he had a proof but did not pen it down before he died. I would say he knew it even if he did not have a proof. And he knew it in a way I could know it even if I can understand and reproduce the proof that has now been found. I have to read your comments on computability more carefully. I tend to agree with you on these. Of course Plato even rejects true account with a belief as being sufficient for knowledge which would eventually lead to Gettier's paper in 1963.Interestingly in the Meno, earlier than Theaeteus Plato also suggests that knowledge needs a tethering down, a justification or an account. However, for action, which is the main concern of Socrates at least, true belief is sufficient for the knowledge required to perform the morally correct action.
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Priyedarshi,
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Priyedarshi,
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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