Ramana Maharshi and the Socratic Method

[Kushal Shah]

Namaskar,

I would like to share with you a short article of mine titled "Ramana Maharshi and the Socratic Method" recently published in the May-June 2019 issue of Direct Path, which is a magazine of the Ramana Kendra, New Delhi.

I will be glad if you can kindly take a look at the attached PDF and share your thoughts in this regard.

The full magazine and earlier issues are available on this link:

http://www.ramanakendradelhi.in/direct-path.html

Thanks,

Kushal.

-- 

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Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals

[Krishna Keshava Dasa]

Namaste Kushal,

I would like to dispute the following passage from your article:

"Being aware of the formless reality is indeed very difficult for most people. But having a form or picture or idol can be a great help to remember the spiritual ideal and shape their daily lives around it."

Quoting the words of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, "This is typical of all Māyāvādīs or atheists who interpret the meaning of Vedic literature in their own imaginative way. The real purpose of such foolish people is to impose the impersonalist conclusion on all Vedic literature. The Māyāvādī atheists also interpret the Bhagavad-gītā. In every verse of Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In every verse Vyāsadeva says, śrī-bhagavān uvāca, 'the Supreme Personality of Godhead said,' or 'the Blessed Lord said.' It is clearly stated that the Blessed Lord is the Supreme Person, but Māyāvādī atheists still try to prove that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. In order to present their false, imaginary meanings, they must adopt so much word jugglery and grammatical interpretation that they finally become ludicrous. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu remarked that no one should hear the Māyāvādī commentaries or purports to any Vedic literature" (Purport to CC Madhya 6.132).

We should accept the statements of Vedanta Sutra and its natural commentary, the Srimad Bhagavatam, as they are stated.  When we try to synthesize our own interpretation, or accept the interpretation of somebody else who has misconstrued the scriptures, we pervert the Revealed Truth through our imperfect senses.  We are under the constant influence of our deluded egos which cause our dry speculations to be misled.  It is only through the direct presentation of the scriptures, how they have been revealed to us, that we can approach some accurate understanding of the Absolute Truth.  

Humbly in service,

Krishna Keshava Dasa      

[Kushal Shah]

Namaskar Krishna,

Thanks for your comments! As you may agree, the true meaning of our scriptures can only be known in the depths of our inner experience. What is expressed in human language is always subject to our interpretation. This, however, doesn't imply that all interpretations are allowed. But it's also true that our scriptures can have multiple valid interpretations. As Sri Ramakrishna used to say, the formless God is my father and God with form is my mother.

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[Krishna Keshava Dasa]

Kushal,

Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya 6.137, reads “The Vedic statements are self-evident. Whatever is stated there must be accepted. If we interpret according to our own imagination, the authority of the Vedas is immediately lost.”  His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada gives this purport, "Out of four main types of evidence — direct perception, hypothesis, historical reference and the Vedas — Vedic evidence is accepted as the foremost. If we want to interpret the Vedic version, we must imagine an interpretation according to what we want to do. First of all, we set forth such an interpretation as a suggestion or hypothesis. As such, it is not actually true, and the self-evident proof is lost.

Śrīla Madhvācārya, commenting on the aphorism dṛśyate tu (Vedānta-sūtra 2.1.6), quotes the Bhaviṣya Purāṇa as follows:

ṛg-yajuḥ-sāmātharvāś ca bhārataṁ pañcarātrakam
mūla-rāmāyaṇaṁ caiva veda ity eva śabditāḥ

purāṇāni ca yānīha vaiṣṇavāni vido viduḥ
svataḥ-prāmāṇyam eteṣāṁ nātra kiñcid vicāryate

The Ṛg Veda, Yajur Veda, Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, Mahābhārata, Pañcarātra and original Rāmāyaṇa are all considered Vedic literature. The Purāṇas that are especially meant for Vaiṣṇavas (such as the Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa, Nāradīya Purāṇa, Viṣṇu Purāṇa and Bhāgavata Purāṇa) are also Vedic literature. Therefore, whatever is stated in such Purāṇas or in the Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa is self-evident. There is no need for interpretation. The Bhagavad-gītā is also within the Mahābhārata; therefore all the statements of the Bhagavad-gītā are self-evident. There is no need for interpretation, and if we do interpret, the entire authority of the Vedic literature is lost.”

 

Sri CC Madya 6.140 reads “Actually, the Supreme Absolute Truth is a person, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, full with all opulences. You are trying to explain Him as impersonal and formless.”  Srila Prabhupada’s purport is as follows, “Brahman means bṛhattva, the greatest of all. The greatest of all is Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He possesses all potencies and opulence in full; therefore the Absolute Truth, the greatest of all, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whether one says ‘Brahman’ or ‘the Supreme Personality of Godhead,’ the fact is the same, for they are identical. In the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma. Although the living entities or material nature are sometimes described as Brahman, Parabrahman — the Supreme, the greatest of all Brahmans — is still Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is full with all opulences, and as such He possesses all riches, all strength, all reputation, all knowledge, all beauty and all renunciation. He is eternally a person and eternally supreme. If one tries to explain the Supreme impersonally, one distorts the real meaning of Brahman.”

Finally, Sri CC Madhya 6.141 reads, “Wherever there is an impersonal description in the Vedas, the Vedas mean to establish that everything belonging to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is transcendental and free of mundane characteristics.”  Srila Prabhupada provides the following purport, “There are many impersonal statements about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As stated in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (3.19):

apāṇi-pādo javano grahītā
 paśyaty acakṣuḥ sa śṛṇoty akarṇaḥ
sa vetti vedyaṁ na ca tasyāsti vettā
 tam āhur agryaṁ puruṣaṁ mahāntam

Although the Supreme Lord is described as having no hands and legs, He nonetheless accepts all sacrificial offerings. He has no eyes, yet He sees everything. He has no ears, yet He hears everything. When it is stated that the Supreme Lord has no hands and legs, one should not think that He is impersonal. Rather, He has no mundane hands or legs like ours. ‘He has no eyes, yet He sees.’ This means that He does not have mundane, limited eyes like ours. Rather, He has such eyes that He can see past, present and future, everywhere, in every corner of the universe and in every corner of the heart of every living entity. Thus the impersonal descriptions in the Vedas intend to deny mundane characteristics in the Supreme Lord. They do not intend to establish the Supreme Lord as impersonal.”

Please note that in each of His Divine Grace’s purports, Srila Prabhpada does not interpret the verse.  He merely supports the verse with even more evidence from Vedic literature, which is also to be understood as directly presented.  We see this pattern continued when Srila Prabhupada quotes Srila Madhvacarya.  Srila Madhvacarya comments on Vedanta-sutra verse 2.1.6. Instead of presenting his own interpretation of the sloka, he cites the Bhavisya Purana to reinforce the Absolute Truth revealed through the direct interpretation of the Vedas.

Humbly in service,

Krishna Keshava Das

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[Kushal Shah]

Dear Krishna,

If Bhagwad Gita, Vedas and all other such scriptures are self-evident, I am not sure why Srila Prabhupada and other enlightened beings had to write such fat commentaries on them.

Thanks,

Kushal.

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[DR. PRASAD BULUSU]

respected  krishna  kes'ava dasa ji

namaskar  !

Quoting the words of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,

"............... In every verse of Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In every verse Vyāsadeva says, śrī-bhagavān uvāca, 'the Supreme Personality of Godhead said,' or 'the Blessed Lord said.'

It is clearly stated that the Blessed Lord is the Supreme Person,

but Māyāvādī atheists still try to prove that the Absolute Truth is impersonal.

In order to present their false, imaginary meanings, they must adopt so much word jugglery and grammatical interpretation that they finally become ludicrous......"

1. yes ,  Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā   clearly  states  that  Lord  S'ri  Kr.shn'a  is  the  Supreme  ( Which  is  infinite  in  space , eternal  in  time , omniscient  in  knowledge , and  omnipotent  in  might  --  qualities  which  are  incomprehensible  to  human  brain  )  -  which  brings  us  to  the  fact  that  though  He  is  the  Supreme  in  His  Inner  Essence  ,  He  presented  Himself  to  us  poor  beings  in  a  tangible  human  form

( the  proof  is  that  Lord  gave  Divine  eyes  to  Arjuna  for  viewing  His  Real Form  which  is  well  beyond  human  perception  )

thus  ,  there  is  a   tangible  form

&  an  utterly  incomprehensible  absolute  form -----

of  course , both  the  forms  can  be  called  by  the  same  Divine  Name  --  Lord  S'ri  Kr.shn'a  !

( obviously  ,  this  latter  form  is  the  "Absolute  Truth"  ------- 

in  Vibhuti Yoga  ,  Arjuna  says  he  prefers  the  tangible  benevolent  form  to  the  Real  Form  of  the  Lord  )

and  ,  what  are  we  compared  to  Arjuna  ! 

let  it  be  known  that

the  "Absolute  Truth"  of  Advaita  encompasses  the  entire  creation  -  Vis'va Rupa  ! !

2.  in  many  places  ,  the  Lord  refers  to  Himself  as  "I"  --- 

e.g.  ahamaatmaa  gudaakes'a sarva bhootaasa'ya sthitaha  //  kshetrajnam  caapi  maam  viddhi  sarva  kshetreshu  bhaarata   //   aham  vais'vaanaro  bhootvaa

now  ,

what  does  this  "I"  point  to  ?

it  is  easily  discernible  -----

this  "I"  refers  not  to  the  physical  tangible  being  ,

but  to  the  Inner  Essence  Which  is  the  Ultimate Reality  

when  i  say  "i"  to  my  son  ,  the  father  speaks

when  i  say   "i"  to  my  brother  ,  a  brother  speaks

when  i  say  "i"  to  my  patient  ,  a  doctor  speaks

when  the  Lord  said  "I"  ,

it  was  not  the  charioteer  of  Arjuna  that  was  speaking  ,

it  was  not  the  son  of  vasudeva  and  devaki  that  was  speaking  --------

it  was  the  Ungraspable  ,  Incomprehensible  ,  Unborn  ,  Eternal  ,  Infinite  ........Ultimate  Reality  that  was  speaking

3.  "maya"  is  not  the  product  of  some  fantasizing  eccentric  brain ---

it  is  not  anything  alien  to  the  Supreme  Godhead ---

in  fact  ,

the  Lord  says  in Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā -- 

"prakr.tim  svaamadhishtaaya  sambhavaami  aatma  maayayaa"  ---- 

it  is  the  Lord's  own  Power

He  excerises  His  Power  and  takes  a  tangible  human  form

but  His  real  form  is  SomeThingElse  ,  call  it  what  you  like ,  call  it  with  the  same  name  Lord  S'ri  Krishn'a  ,  but  it  is  the  Absolute  Truth

namaskar .

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

--

[Krishna Keshava Dasa]

Namaste Dr. Prasad,

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.28 mentions, "ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ//kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam- All of incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead."  Srila Prabhupada mentions the following in his purport of this verse, "All the symptoms of the Supreme Truth in full are present in the person of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord emphatically declares that there is no truth greater than or equal to Himself. In this stanza the word svayam is particularly mentioned to confirm that Lord Kṛṣṇa has no other source than Himself."  From this, we can see that Sri Krishna, in His two-armed human-like form, is actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the Absolute Truth; He is the origin of all other incarnations, avatars, and forms of the Lord including His marvelous universal form. 

 

Due to His absolute nature, all forms of Sri Krishna are endowed with His potencies.  As you mentioned, we are sometimes called by our different roles such as friend, son, or student.  These names are just referencing the role we play in society but they do not refer to what we really are.  This is because we live in the plane of duality and illusion, always relating to relative truths.  Sri Krishna is the Absolute Truth.  Sometimes He is known as Gopal, Gopinath, or Risikesh.  These show His aspects as friend of the cows, lover of the Gopis, and master of the senses.  Sometimes He appears as Lord Ramachandra, Nrisimhadev or the universal form.  These show his opulent, angry, and infinite potencies.  They are all non-different from Lord Krishna, exhibiting His potencies, yet they are simultaneously different from Him.  This shows the Lord's acintya bheda abheda tattva, inconceivable oneness and difference.  This is why whenever Krishna refers to Himself as "I," He is always referring to His own personal form.  The charioteer of Arjuna and the son of Vasudeva and Devaki are not just roles assigned to some infinitesimal being.  Lord Krishna is there, and He is manifest in His variegated forms due to His absolute nature.   

By the mercy of my spiritual master, Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D., I have been able to share this conception.  Haribol!

Humbly in service,

Krishna Keshava Das      

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[Krishna Keshava Dasa]

Namaste Kushal, 

Srimad Bhagavad Gita 9.11 says "avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā//mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam//paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto//mama bhūta-maheśvaram- Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be."  Most of us living entities incarcerated here in Kali yuga are very fallen and foolish, especially when considering the transcendental plane.  We should be humble enough to admit this.  We require a bonafide teacher, guru, who can help us to become receptive to the Revealed Truth which is directly evident in the scriptures. This is confirmed in Bhagavad Gita 4.34, "You will be able to attain knowledge by satisfying the divine master with submission, relevant inquiry, and sincere service. The enlightened souls who are learned in scriptural knowledge and endowed with direct realisation of the Supreme Absolute Truth will impart divine knowledge to you."  Such a  guru is thus qualified through his association with a bonafide sampradaya, a disciplic succession which is authorized by and coming from the Supreme Lord Himself, clearly stated in Bhagavad Gita4.2, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam.  When a bonafide teacher, guru, or acharya, such as His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada gifts us with elaborate purports, he is providing thorough support and revealing parallels with other scriptures that the general population may not have access to.  Due to the fallen nature of the living entities in Kali yuga, this thorough support is tremendously helpful when considering the Absolute Truth.  It is not much different from when a math teacher is helping a student.  The teacher may provide an explanation regarding why 1+1=2, but the teacher can never change the equation to say 1+1=11.  If the math is obscured, then it won't be scientific and its ability to communicate some truth is ruined.  Similarly, Veda is scientific and should not be obscured.  

Humbly in service,

Krishna Keshava Das

On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 7:08:22 AM UTC-4, Kushal Shah wrote:

Dear Krishna,

If Bhagwad Gita, Vedas and all other such scriptures are self-evident, I am not sure why Srila Prabhupada and other enlightened beings had to write such fat commentaries on them.

Thanks,

Kushal.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 11:15 PM Krishna Keshava Dasa <krishna.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kushal,

Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya 6.137, reads “The Vedic statements are self-evident. Whatever is stated there must be accepted. If we interpret according to our own imagination, the authority of the Vedas is immediately lost.”  His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada gives this purport, "Out of four main types of evidence — direct perception, hypothesis, historical reference and the Vedas — Vedic evidence is accepted as the foremost. If we want to interpret the Vedic version, we must imagine an interpretation according to what we want to do. First of all, we set forth such an interpretation as a suggestion or hypothesis. As such, it is not actually true, and the self-evident proof is lost.

Śrīla Madhvācārya, commenting on the aphorism dṛśyate tu (Vedānta-sūtra 2.1.6), quotes the Bhaviṣya Purāṇa as follows:

ṛg-yajuḥ-sāmātharvāś ca bhārataṁ pañcarātrakam
mūla-rāmāyaṇaṁ caiva veda ity eva śabditāḥ

purāṇāni ca yānīha vaiṣṇavāni vido viduḥ
svataḥ-prāmāṇyam eteṣāṁ nātra kiñcid vicāryate

The Ṛg Veda, Yajur Veda, Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, Mahābhārata, Pañcarātra and original Rāmāyaṇa are all considered Vedic literature. The Purāṇas that are especially meant for Vaiṣṇavas (such as the Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa, Nāradīya Purāṇa, Viṣṇu Purāṇa and Bhāgavata Purāṇa) are also Vedic literature. Therefore, whatever is stated in such Purāṇas or in the Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa is self-evident. There is no need for interpretation. The Bhagavad-gītā is also within the Mahābhārata; therefore all the statements of the Bhagavad-gītā are self-evident. There is no need for interpretation, and if we do interpret, the entire authority of the Vedic literature is lost.”

 

Sri CC Madya 6.140 reads “Actually, the Supreme Absolute Truth is a person, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, full with all opulences. You are trying to explain Him as impersonal and formless.”  Srila Prabhupada’s purport is as follows, “Brahman means bṛhattva, the greatest of all. The greatest of all is Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He possesses all potencies and opulence in full; therefore the Absolute Truth, the greatest of all, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whether one says ‘Brahman’ or ‘the Supreme Personality of Godhead,’ the fact is the same, for they are identical. In the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma. Although the living entities or material nature are sometimes described as Brahman, Parabrahman — the Supreme, the greatest of all Brahmans — is still Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is full with all opulences, and as such He possesses all riches, all strength, all reputation, all knowledge, all beauty and all renunciation. He is eternally a person and eternally supreme. If one tries to explain the Supreme impersonally, one distorts the real meaning of Brahman.”

Finally, Sri CC Madhya 6.141 reads, “Wherever there is an impersonal description in the Vedas, the Vedas mean to establish that everything belonging to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is transcendental and free of mundane characteristics.”  Srila Prabhupada provides the following purport, “There are many impersonal statements about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As stated in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (3.19):

apāṇi-pādo javano grahītā
 paśyaty acakṣuḥ sa śṛṇoty akarṇaḥ
sa vetti vedyaṁ na ca tasyāsti vettā
 tam āhur agryaṁ puruṣaṁ mahāntam

Although the Supreme Lord is described as having no hands and legs, He nonetheless accepts all sacrificial offerings. He has no eyes, yet He sees everything. He has no ears, yet He hears everything. When it is stated that the Supreme Lord has no hands and legs, one should not think that He is impersonal. Rather, He has no mundane hands or legs like ours. ‘He has no eyes, yet He sees.’ This means that He does not have mundane, limited eyes like ours. Rather, He has such eyes that He can see past, present and future, everywhere, in every corner of the universe and in every corner of the heart of every living entity. Thus the impersonal descriptions in the Vedas intend to deny mundane characteristics in the Supreme Lord. They do not intend to establish the Supreme Lord as impersonal.”

Please note that in each of His Divine Grace’s purports, Srila Prabhpada does not interpret the verse.  He merely supports the verse with even more evidence from Vedic literature, which is also to be understood as directly presented.  We see this pattern continued when Srila Prabhupada quotes Srila Madhvacarya.  Srila Madhvacarya comments on Vedanta-sutra verse 2.1.6. Instead of presenting his own interpretation of the sloka, he cites the Bhavisya Purana to reinforce the Absolute Truth revealed through the direct interpretation of the Vedas.

Humbly in service,

Krishna Keshava Das

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 1:54 PM Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskar Krishna,

Thanks for your comments! As you may agree, the true meaning of our scriptures can only be known in the depths of our inner experience. What is expressed in human language is always subject to our interpretation. This, however, doesn't imply that all interpretations are allowed. But it's also true that our scriptures can have multiple valid interpretations. As Sri Ramakrishna used to say, the formless God is my father and God with form is my mother.

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[Krishna Keshava Dasa]

Namaste Kushal,

In the Mundaka-upanisad (1.2.12), it is said:

tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigachchhet
samit panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

“To understand the Absolute Truth, one must approach a Guru who is fixed in spiritual knowledge and well-versed in the scriptures. And he must approach the Guru being prepared for sacrifice.” This is the general instruction of the Upanisads.

Srimad Bhagavatam (11.3.21) similarly advises:

tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreyah uttamam
sabde pare cha nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam

“One seriously inquisitive to search for his highest prospect should take complete shelter of a Guru who has deep realisations of the Supreme Lord and the inner meaning of the scriptures. Such spiritual masters have left aside all relative considerations in favor of the supreme absolute consideration.”