Dear Kashyap
I've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. I've also copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which is the only way to understand these connections.
By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory. To my knowledge, it is the only logically consistent geometric mechanism of unification, as Amanda Gefter has argued as she surveys the landscape of modern physics in her recent book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn. All the other responses to your question I've seen do not seem to take unification into account, and are based on archaic arguments about quantum theory that date back to almost a century ago. As Amanda argues in her book, the unification of quantum theory with relativity theory has the nature of a geometric mechanism rather than a set of master equations or a theory of everything. We call this geometric mechanism the holographic principle. To put it in the context of the big bang creation event, as dark energy is expended, which is the accelerated expansion of space that arises in relativity theory with a positive cosmological constant and expands relative to the central point of view of an observer, a cosmic horizon arises that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space.
If we apply non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon, position coordinates on the horizon are no longer a continuum, but are quantized in a pixelated way, where the pixel size is about a Planck area. Position coordinates on the horizon are now represented by a finite number of bits of information, which typically arise as the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where the number of pixels is given in terms of the horizon surface area A as n=A/4(Planck area). Each pixel encodes a bit of information. In this way, the observer's cosmic horizon becomes a holographic screen. The observer's space-time geometry is then a holographic projection from the screen to the observer's central point of view. The observer's holographic screen has a temperature and appears to emit thermal radiation called Hawking radiation. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric, which dynamically describe that space-time geometry, naturally arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average or a thermodynamic equation of state that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.
All the quantum fields of the standard model of particle physics then arise from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric as extra components of the space-time metric though the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. We finally end up with something that looks like the quantum theory of particles, but the logical progression is the expression of dark energy that gives rise to a cosmic horizon and non-commutative geometry that implies the holographic principle, which implies Einstein's field equations as a low energy limit that is valid only as a thermal average, which implies the standard model of particle physics through the usual unification mechanisms.
The big question is why is dark energy expended in the first place? What exists before dark energy is expended? Why do we have a big bang creation event? Why all of these geometric mechanisms that finally give rise to a world of space and time that appears to be filled with particles that are described by quantum theory? The holographic principle seems to tell us that this is all a big illusion, since this apparent world of space, time, matter and energy is all a holographic projection from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's central point of view. It even seems that this holographic projection is animated over a sequence of screen outputs, like the animated images of a movie the observer is watching on a screen. All the debate about the quantum nature of observation is about the nature of a screen output.
The copied emails below try to answer these questions in the spirit of Advaita. In a fundamental way, Advaita is about what exists before the world is created. Until we confront these questions, it would seem to me all other questions are irrelevant. In the spirit of the famous Einstein quote "I want to know the mind of God; the rest are mere details".
To: Dr. Robert Boyer and other interested readers,
Dear Robert,
Please feel free to call me kashyap. Recently my name was added to this google group. I am a retired physics professor and like you have been interested in physics, Vedanta and consciousness. For consciousness I am in the initial learning stage. I do not have any ‘pet theory’ on consciousness! I have been glancing at your interesting papers. I may have some questions after I read your papers carefully. But here is one question which comes to my mind immediately.
Do you believe from your Vedic model that Bohm’s model about explicate and implicate order is essentially correct?
I should say that purely from physics point of view, Bohm’s interpretation is not doing well. It is true that in spite of 90 years debate about interpretation of quantum physics, there is no consensus on the issue of interpretation. But there have been polls amongst physicists about various interpretations. Usually Copenhagen interpretation gets top votes (not majority though) and Bohm’s theory gets practically zero votes. Admittedly, science should not be done by popularity contests! But the fact remains that Bohm’s theory has serious problems with theory of relativity and its insistence on particle trajectories being real. So overwhelming number of physicists do not agree with the model. This would include recent attempts to restore Bohm’s model.
As I see it, majority of physicists believe in non-real interpretation of quantum physics. This was clear from 1920s when wave-particle duality was accepted. But more recently, experiments based on Bell’s theorem have made it clear that particles do not have any (real) properties before they are measured. In this context, Einstein, the greatest scientist ever born, was most likely wrong! This is mentioned in my recent article “Concepts of Reality in Hinduism and Buddhism from the perspective of a physicist”. I have posted it on this blog, sometime back. I will appreciate your comments on it when you have time to read it. It seems to me that Vedanta (following Adi Shanakaracharya’s concept of Maya or Illusion) would agree more with non-real interpretation of quantum physics than with Bohm’s interpretation! Real interpretation may be ok for the ultimate Brahman but physics is not there yet!
Thanks.
Kashyap Vasavada
We can't explain what consciousness is since it's the primordial or ultimate nature of existence. The only true thing we can ever say about it is that "It Is". In its primordial, ultimate, or undifferentiated state we call it the void or the true vacuum state, which is the nature of nothingness. In its differentiated state we call it individual consciousness. The holographic principle tells us that individual consciousness is only a focal point of consciousness that can only arise in relation to a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information that describe everything observable in the observer's world, and that the focal point of consciousness is always at the central point of view of the observer's world. The observable things reduce down to bits of information encoded on the holographic screen, which is what quantum theory is all about. Bohm had the right idea about implicate order and a holographic universe since the bits of information encoded on the holographic screen are entangled like the eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is the number of bits of information encoded on the screen and is given in terms of the screen area A as n=A/4(Planck area). In the context of modern cosmology and the big bang event, the focal point of consciousness is the point of singularity that arises in relation to a cosmic horizon as dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space) is expended. Although Amanda Gefter is not willing to identify the void as undifferentiated consciousness, the scientific basis for this conclusion is discussed in her recent book (Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn) with logical clarity.
Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
Dear Jim,
Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am
-Gospel of John
Brahman is the only truth, the world is illusion, and there is ultimately no difference between Brahman and Atman
-Shankara
That which permeates all, which nothing transcends, and which like the universal space around us, fills everything completely from within and without, that Supreme non-dual Brahman-that thou art
-Shankara
Ontology is the study of what exists in reality. I take reality to be ultimate reality. Like Amanda Gefter, I define ultimate reality as what is invariant for all observers. Modern physics tells us that everything in the world is radically observer dependent. All observations of things can change based upon the observer's point of view. The ultimate example of this radical observer dependence is the holographic principle, which tells us all the bits of information that define the configuration states of every observable thing the observer can observe in its world are encoded on a holographic screen. Like a screen output, in some sense the images of these things must be projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's point of view. This kind of holographic projection is the nature of a quantum state reduction or an observation. The observer itself can only be identified as a focal point of consciousness at the central point of view of its world that arises in relation to its holographic screen. Modern cosmology tells us the observer's world is only created (as in the big bang creation event) and comes into an apparent existence when dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the observer's central point of view) is expended. Dark energy is what puts the "bang" in the big bang event and gives rise to a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view. This cosmic horizon limits the observer's observation of things in that bounded region of space, and acts as a holographic screen that projects all the images of things in that bounded space to the observer's central point of view. In the language of relativity theory, the observer's cosmic horizon is radically observer-dependent, and so everything the observer can observe in its world is also radically observer-dependent. In other words, nothing is invariant for all observers, and so nothing is ultimately real. At best, there can only be a kind of consensual reality that observers share when their respective cosmic horizons overlap in the sense of a Venn diagram and share information, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens like the internet.
The ultimate example of the radical observer dependence of everything in the observer's world is that from the observer's point of view the observer's world can disappear from existence. The observer's world only appears to come into existence when dark energy is expended, since that is how a cosmic horizon arises with the accelerated expansion of space. When energy is no longer expended, the cosmic horizon no longer arises, and so the observer no longer has a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information for everything in its world and that projects all the images of things in that world to the observer's central point of view. When energy is no longer expended, the observer's world must disappear from existence from the observer's point of view. In relativity theory, this non-accelerated point of view is called free-fall.
What happens to the consciousness of the observer when its world disappears from existence? Truth-realized beings tell us the observer's focal point of differentiated consciousness dissolves back into the undifferentiated consciousness of the void like a drop of water dissolves into the ocean. This dissolution is described as freely falling into the void. Enlightened beings also tell us truth realization is only possible in the desireless state when the expression of all energy comes to an end. When the expression of energy comes to an end, as it eventually must since all things ultimately come to an end, the observer's world disappears from existence from the observer's point of view, the observer's consciousness returns to the void in a state of dissolution, and nothing ultimately exists.
Words and concepts form a strange kind of logical tautology, sort of like an optical illusion. They can mean different things when looked at from different points of view. The Buddha reportedly stated that "Truly, I have attained nothing from total enlightenment". From one point of view, this seems to say that he didn't attain anything, but from another point of view this says he did attain nothing. In the same way, to say "Nothing ultimately exists" can seem to say that no things exist, but from another point of view can be seen to say that nothing does exist. Nothing is what ultimately exists.
The issue of what ultimately exists or is invariant for all observers is about the nature of being. Ultimately, the undifferentiated consciousness of the void (nothingness) is what exists and so is the ultimate nature of being. We can even say the ultimate nature of existence is "being nothing". As observers, we each carry a fragment of that sense of being with us, which is the sense of being present, or the sense "I am". As a differentiated focal point of consciousness, the observer is a presence of consciousness that carries its own sense of being. It's not necessary to be anything in particular to have that sense of being, which the observer finally realizes when it returns to the void.
From: Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 3:13 PM
To: 'jim kowall' <jkowa...@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics
Dear Jim,
Thanks for your e-mail about unification and Advaita philosophy. I had seen your earlier e-mail. But I was heavily engaged in replying to questions on pure physics. When I see questions on pure physics, I cannot resist temptation of answering them!! I will think about your comments. To me it seems that quantum mechanics may be a bridge between sensory and non-sensory world. Have you written an article about the matter you discuss in your comment. I would like to see a copy of that.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
On May 28, 2017, at 10:57 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear KashyapI've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics.
I've also copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which is the only way to understand these connections.By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6KjRhBEoKPWjAVtjDQEfq2ryKaxRhxNy83TjB%3DPxmU04g%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6KjRhBEoKPWjAVtjDQEfq2ryKaxRhxNy83TjB%3DPxmU04g%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/DAFC202F-043F-4FDC-8163-BFD709A7A068%40aol.com.
On May 31, 2017, at 11:47 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:READ AMANDA GEFTER'S BOOK!!!!!
Tom Banks (utilizing non-commutative geometry) has developed an observer-centric description of the holographic principle in de Sitter space NOT anti-de Sitter space, and so is applicable to a de Sitter (cosmic horizon) for OUR universe with dark energy.
Ted Jacobson has shown whenever the holographic principle is in effect (as Banks has shown it to be in effect on a de Sitter horizon) Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric emerge as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.
If the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry
and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism are applied to Einstein's field equations (in the context of non-commutative geometry) we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity (which is part of M-theory) and includes the U(1), SU(2) and SU(3) interactions. As Amanda Gefter has argued in her book, every observer has their own holographic screen (cosmic horizon) that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world.
A consensual reality only emerges if the horizons overlap and share information. The observer is at the central point of view of the observer's world, which is the origin of the frame of reference or singularity of the cosmic horizon. This is all based on our conventional understanding of physics. No mysticism is necessary.
<DavisFig1-1Hologram(1).jpg>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6L0%2By2HdqPyAoa8T_dhYzDiQT9-QgO2yyYj%3D5FCfCkxOg%40mail.gmail.com.
I propose that much recent history can be explained by hypothesizing that sometime during the last quarter of 2016, the history of the world underwent a macroscopic quantum tunneling event, creating, according to the Many Worlds Interpretation, a new branch of the multiverse in which my consciousness and that of my readers is now trapped. The failure of much political polling is then understood by assuming that the particular branch we are on had very low amplitude in the quantum wave function of the multiverse. In this view, one must take a different attitude towards alternative facts than that proposed by the mainstream media. We know that quantum tunneling can change the low energy laws of physics in the different branches of the wave function. Alternative facts may simply be the reflection of the media's ignorance of the state of the world after a quantum transition of this magnitude.
Deriving particle physics from quantum gravity: a plan
(Submitted on 17 Sep 2009)I give a short review of the holographic approach to quantum gravity, with emphasis on its application to deriving the properties of elementary particles.
Holographic Space-time and Black Holes: Mirages As Alternate Reality
(Submitted on 14 Jan 2014 (v1), last revised 30 Jan 2014 (this version, v2))We revisit our investigation of the claim of [1] that old black holes contain a firewall, i.e. an in-falling observer encounters highly excited states at a time much shorter than the light crossing time of the Schwarzschild radius. We used the formalism of Holographic Space-time (HST) where there is no dramatic change in particle physics inside the horizon until a time of order the Schwarzschild radius. We correct our description of the interior of the black hole . HST provides a complete description of the quantum mechanics along any time-like trajectory, even those which fall through the black hole horizon. The latter are described as alternative factorizations of the description of an external observer, turning the mirage of the interior provided by that observer's membrane paradigm on the stretched horizon, into realityLectures on Holographic Space Time
(Submitted on 4 Nov 2013)Summary of three talks on the Holographic Space Time models of early universe cosmology, particle physics, and the asymptotically de Sitter final state of our universe.
Comments: LaTex2e. 32 pages Subjects: High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); Cosmology and Nongalactic Astrophysics (astro-ph.CO); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc) Report number: RUNHETC-2013-1/SCIPP 13/10 Cite as: arXiv:1311.0755 [hep-th] (or arXiv:1311.0755v1 [hep-th] for this version) The Membrane Paradigm and Firewalls
(Submitted on 30 Sep 2013 (v1), last revised 2 Oct 2013 (this version, v2))Following the Membrane Paradigm, we show that the stretched horizon of a black hole retains information about particles thrown into the hole for a time of order the scrambling time m ln(m/M_P), after the particles cross the horizon. One can, for example, read off the proper time at which a particle anti-particle pair thrown into the hole, annihilates behind the horizon, if this time is less than the scrambling time. If we believe that the Schwarzschild geometry exterior to the horizon is a robust thermodynamic feature of the quantum black hole, independent of whether it is newly formed, or has undergone a long period of Hawking decay, then this classical computation shows that the "firewall" resolution of the AMPS paradox is not valid.The Top 10^{500} Reasons Not to Believe in the Landscape
(Submitted on 28 Aug 2012)The String Landscape is a fantasy. We actually have a plausible landscape of minimally supersymmetric AdS4solutions of supergravity modified by an exponential superpotential. None of these solutions is accessible to world sheet perturbation theory. If they exist as models of quantum gravity, they are defined by conformal field theories, and each is an independent quantum system, which makes no transitions to any of the others. This landscape has nothing to do with CDL tunneling or eternal inflation.
A proper understanding of CDL transitions in QFT on a fixed background dS space, shows that the EI picture of this system is not justified within the approximation of low energy effective field theory. The cutoff independent physics, defined by the Euclidean functional integral over the 4-sphere admits only a finite number of instantons. Plausible extensions of these ideas to a quantum theory of gravity obeying the holographic principle explain all of the actual facts about CDL transitions in dS space, and lead to a picture radically different from eternal inflation.
Theories of Eternal Inflation (EI) have to rely too heavily on the anthropic principle to be consistent with experiment. Given the vast array of effective low energy field theories that could be produced by the conventional picture of the string landscape one is forced to conclude that the most numerous anthropically allowed theories will disagree with experiment violently.
Comments: LaTeX. 38 pages Subjects: High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc) Report number: RUNHETC-2012-07 SCIPP-12/06 Cite as: arXiv:1208.5715 [hep-th] (or arXiv:1208.5715v1 [hep-th] for this version)
Comments: This paper has been withdrawn by the authors due to a loophole in the argument pointed out by J. Maldacena Subjects: High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc) Cite as: arXiv:1309.7977 [hep-th] (or arXiv:1309.7977v2 [hep-th] for this version) Holographic Space-Time Does Not Predict Firewalls
(Submitted on 23 Aug 2012 (v1), last revised 19 Sep 2012 (this version, v3))We use the formalism of Holographic Space-time (HST) to investigate the claim of [1] that old black holes contain a firewall, i.e. an in-falling observer encounters highly excited states at a time much shorter than the light crossing time of the Schwarzschild radius. This conclusion is much less dramatic in HST than in the hypothetical models of quantum gravity used in [1]. In HST there is no dramatic change in particle physics inside the horizon until a time of order the Schwarzschild radiusPedagogical notes on black holes, de Sitter space, and bifurcated horizons
(Submitted on 22 Jul 2010)I discuss black hole evaporation in two different coordinate systems and argue that the results of the two are compatible once one takes the holographic principle into account. de Sitter space is then discussed along similar lines. Finally I make some remarks about smooth initial conditions in GR, which evolve to space-times with bifurcate horizons, and emphasize the care one must take in identifying spaces of solutions of General Relativity which belong to the same quantum theory of gravity. No really new material is presented, but the point of view I take on all 3 subjects is not widely appreciated.
Comments: LaTeX 13 pages Subjects: High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc) Report number: SCIPP-2010-12, RUNHETC-2010-17 Cite as: arXiv:1007.4003 [hep-th] (or arXiv:1007.4003v1 [hep-th] for this version) TASI Lectures on Holographic Space-Time, SUSY and Gravitational Effective Field Theory
(Submitted on 22 Jul 2010 (v1), last revised 23 Sep 2010 (this version, v3))I argue that the conventional field theoretic notion of vacuum state is not valid in quantum gravity. The arguments use gravitational effective field theory, as well as results from string theory, particularly the AdS/CFT correspondence. Different solutions of the same low energy gravitational field equations correspond to different quantum systems, rather than different states in the same system. I then introduce {\it holographic space-time} a quasi-local quantum mechanical construction based on the holographic principle. I argue that models of quantum gravity in asymptotically flat space-time will be exactly super-Poincare invariant, because the natural variables of holographic space-time for such a system, are the degrees of freedom of massless superparticles. The formalism leads to a non-singular quantum Big Bang cosmology, in which the asymptotic future is required to be a de Sitter space, with cosmological constant (c.c.) determined by cosmological initial conditions. It is also approximately SUSic in the future, with the gravitino mass KΛ1/4.Holographic space-time and its phenomenological implications
T. Banks (Rutgers NHETC and SCIPP-UCSC)(Submitted on 15 Apr 2010)I briefly review the theory of Holographic Space-time and its relation to the cosmological constant problem, and the breaking of supersymmetry (SUSY). When combined with some simple phenomenological requirements, these ideas lead to a fairly unique model for Tera-scale physics, which implies direct gauge mediation of SUSY breaking and a model for dark matter as a hidden sector baryon, with nonzero magnetic dipole moment.
I argue that conventional estimates of the criterion for classical behavior of a macroscopic body are incorrect in most circumstances,because they do not take into account the locality of interactions, which characterizes the behavior of all systems described approximately by local quantum field theory. The deviations from classical behavior of a macroscopic body, except for those that can be described as classical uncertainties in the initial values of macroscopic variables,are {\it exponentially} small as a function of the volume of the macro-system in microscopic units. Conventional estimates are correct only when the internal degrees of freedom of the macrosystem are in their ground state, and the classical motion of collective coordinates is adiabatic. Otherwise, the system acts as its own environment and washes out quantum phase correlations between different classical states of its collective coordinates. I suggest that it is likely that we can only achieve meso-scopic superpositions, for systems which have topological variables, and for which we can couple to those variables without exciting phonons.
On May 31, 2017, at 12:31 PM, JACK SARFATTI <jsar...@aol.com> wrote:
On May 31, 2017, at 11:47 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:READ AMANDA GEFTER'S BOOK!!!!!this one?
Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn | Not Even Wrong - Columbia Math
Dec 29, 2013 - Amanda Gefter, a science writer who has often covered theoretical ... has a new book coming out soon, Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn.
Dec 9, 2014 - Uploaded by Talks at GoogleScience writer Amanda Gefter visited Google's Cambridge, MA office to discuss her book "Trespassing on ...
Tom Banks (utilizing non-commutative geometry) has developed an observer-centric description of the holographic principle in de Sitter space NOT anti-de Sitter space, and so is applicable to a de Sitter (cosmic horizon) for OUR universe with dark energy.Great news. What's the URL?Ted Jacobson has shown whenever the holographic principle is in effect (as Banks has shown it to be in effect on a de Sitter horizon) Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric emerge as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.OK, when happens in the far-from-thermal equilibrium "dissipative structure" regime?If the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetryfly in the ointment - no SS seen yet.
and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism are applied to Einstein's field equations (in the context of non-commutative geometry) we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity (which is part of M-theory) and includes the U(1), SU(2) and SU(3) interactions. As Amanda Gefter has argued in her book, every observer has their own holographic screen (cosmic horizon) that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world.
<DavisFig1-1Hologram(1).jpg>
> email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.> To view this discussion on the web visit>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------------------------------Fifth International ConferenceScience and Scientist - 2017August 18—19, 2017Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, NepalSend a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reportsWhy Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizerDarwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/DarwinPrinceton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.orgSri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.orgSadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsangaContact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAC43-2HNgNUh0meQ5RN1umh_PAdV5w3ssK2UgwS_igTMVodc_A%40mail.gmail.com.
To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/337890857.127448.1496314923780%40mail.yahoo.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/337890857.127448.1496314923780%40mail.yahoo.com.
> an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
Dear Jim,
I will consider your comments carefully later. On googling I found also two of your interesting papers. They are on my “to read” list. But here is my knee-jerk reaction!! Amanda Gefter, although a highly intelligent lady, is after all a journalist. How, journalists, without having fundamental knowledge of science, mess up explaining science, is well known. I read a blog about the book and watched her talk. I understand she talked to some top level physicists and wrote the book (surely well written) about her impressions. I do not want to diminish her achievement. But that should not replace trying to understand physics from physicists. Anyway I will keep open mind about Tom Bank’s theories. But his matrix theories as part of string theories are now several years old. I do have high respect for string theory as a unifying theory for all the interactions. I hope eventually it succeeds. But lately, it has run into lot of problems. For one thing, LHC did not discover any supersymmetry. There are some 10^500 possible solutions. Lot of people have criticized ST for being vague, with no predictions and lack of experimental support. So one should not believe that string theory has solved all the problems of fundamental physics. It would be dangerous to use it as a guide to problems of consciousness. By the way, you might know that Lubos Motls was a student of Tom Banks and is a good string theorist. He has a pro string theory blog, although he publishes lot of blogs on politics and other social subjects. In fact he published my guest blog in 2014 (Hinduism for physicists)! I visit his blog every day and ask questions often. You may want to visit his blog, motls.blogspot.com
Best Regards.
Kashyap
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6KjRhBEoKPWjAVtjDQEfq2ryKaxRhxNy83TjB%3DPxmU04g%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/DAFC202F-043F-4FDC-8163-BFD709A7A068%40aol.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services:
http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6L0%2By2HdqPyAoa8T_dhYzDiQT9-QgO2yyYj%3D5FCfCkxOg%40mail.gmail.com.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6KjRhBEoKPWjAVtjDQEfq2ryKaxRhxNy83TjB%3DPxmU04g%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/DAFC202F-043F-4FDC-8163-BFD709A7A068%40aol.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6L0%2By2HdqPyAoa8T_dhYzDiQT9-QgO2yyYj%3D5FCfCkxOg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/b7214e4576144f6fbe61d46ee6a92b28%40IN-CCI-EX03.ads.iu.edu.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Date: Thu, June 01, 2017 9:41 am
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
On 01 Jun 2017, at 13:02, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:
To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.
I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists. "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible. prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the drug, and on the way it is used.I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and the whole physical reality).Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see, only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.Bruno
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 9:04 AM, N.Panchapakesan<nargis...@gmail.com> wrote:
number of persons, all over the world, especially in the eastern part
> Subject: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics>>>> Dear Kashyap>>>> I've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection
> of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. I've also
> copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd> like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which> is the only way to understand these connections.>>>> By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is
> a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory. To my knowledge, it
> To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.------------------------------Fifth International ConferenceScience and Scientist - 2017August 18—19, 2017Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, NepalSend a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reportsWhy Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizerDarwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/DarwinPrinceton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.orgSri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.orgSadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsangaContact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAC43-2HNgNUh0meQ5RN1umh_PAdV5w3ssK2UgwS_igTMVodc_A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/337890857.127448.1496314923780%40mail.yahoo.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/2E7E919B-C0E6-4A4C-B68C-68B4F00FC4D5%40ulb.ac.be.
One question. Do you think the experiences Rishis had in meditation are similar to those under psychedelic drugs even though most of them could not have taken these drugs? Your description of Mukti is much more general than Vedic concepts of liberation of soul etc. Well, quantum mechanics may not be a path to mukti! But it sounds like a bridge to non-sensory world. Though, of course, the story is unfinished yet. Many people challenge even the existence of non-sensory world.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/74D5AC8D-1391-4561-B8A6-FF554C786583%40colorado.edu.
"Drugs helping to perturb the brain" is not going to give real knowledge or true. Just shifting from one illusion to another, that's all.
And more than likely a more dangerous and volatile illusion than the ordinary ones without the drugs in the first place.
In order to actually free oneself of "prejudices" or untruths, one simply needs to be presented with the truth, from one who knows it.
And then one needs to consider it, and with good intelligence accept it.
Drugs unfortunately tend to distort ones intelligence often to the extent that he loses his grasp on even ordinary common functioning, thus the hordes of the homeless so prevalent nowadays in most every nation.
Spiritual domain is not accessed simply by altering the physical domain with drugs or chemicals, that won't work.
Spiritual domain has its own existence, its own reality, higher reality. It is not subject to the laws of nature here.
Performing tricks on oneself here will not propel you there. That's just a trick of the mind.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/1478110285.263900.1496406463517%40mail.yahoo.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/2082169791.294523.1496407743111%40mail.yahoo.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/6E3C3E1E-DEF4-4870-9670-6DDFB329E10F%40colorado.edu.
This puts flesh on Brian Josephson's too-vague remarks on "agents" that I was never able to understand from his writing citing Karen Barad. Caveat: This chap is unaware of advanced destiny causes from the future in (Igor Novikov) globally self-consistent causal loops of timelike PQM key-less messaging entanglement. What he says below is important for sure, but is only one half of the story restricted to emergent retarded history causes.
"Erik Hoel, a 29-year-old theoretical neuroscientist and writer, quoted the passage in a recent essay in which he laid out his new mathematical explanation of how consciousness and agency arise. The existence of agents — beings with intentions and goal-oriented behavior — has long seemed profoundly at odds with the reductionist assumption that all behavior arises from mechanistic interactions between particles. Agency doesn’t exist among the atoms, and so reductionism suggests agents don’t exist at all: that Romeo’s desires and psychological states are not the real causes of his actions, but merely approximate the unknowably complicated causes and effects between the atoms in his brain and surroundings. ...
Using the mathematical language of information theory, Hoel and his collaborators claim to show that new causes — things that produce effects — can emerge at macroscopic scales. They say coarse-grained macroscopic states of a physical system (such as the psychological state of a brain) can have more causal power over the system’s future than a more detailed, fine-grained description of the system possibly could. Macroscopic states, such as desires or beliefs, “are not just shorthand for the real causes,” explained Simon DeDeo, an information theorist and cognitive scientist at Carnegie Mellon University and the Santa Fe Institute who is not involved in the work, “but it’s actually a description of the real causes, and a more fine-grained description would actually miss those causes.”
“To me, that seems like the right way to talk about it,” DeDeo said, “because we do want to attribute causal properties to higher-order events [and] things like mental states.”
New math shows how, contrary to conventional scientific wisdom, conscious beings and other macroscopic entities might have greater influence over the future than does the sum of their microscopic components.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-theory-of-reality-as-more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts-20170601/
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Andreas Dress <and...@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de>
Date: Fri, June 02, 2017 4:43 pm
To: on <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>,
con...@howgravityworks.org
Cc: Andreas Dress <and...@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de>
So, now we are getting close to
Pedro Calderón de la Barca's "La vida es sueño".
Andreas
On 02.06.2017, at 11:37, <con...@howgravityworks.org> wrote:
American Indians smoke peyote for a spiritual experience.
It is funny. Every now and then I get the whimsical notion that it may be I am god and being alone in the
existence everything and everyone in my existence is a creation of my mind for my own entertainment.
The only problem is, that means I must be a masochist to have to endure what is more like torture in the
everything and everyone I have created in my environment....... LOL
So, that theory quickly falls apart.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Date: Thu, June 01, 2017 9:41 am
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
On 01 Jun 2017, at 13:02, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:
> To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.
I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists. "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible. prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.
Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the drug, and on the way it is used.
I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and the whole physical reality).
Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).
Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see, only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.
Bruno
>
> > email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/a8820d37eff34fc0a4278272f52bfee9%40IN-CCI-EX03.ads.iu.edu.
> >
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> Fifth International Conference
> Science and Scientist - 2017
> August 18—19, 2017
> Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
>
> Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
> (All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
>
> Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
> Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
>
> Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
>
> Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/2E7E919B-C0E6-4A4C-B68C-68B4F00FC4D5%40ulb.ac.be.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/20170602023727.62043695fdfcd29cd3ec981135c49e25.8e92c2efdc.wbe%40email09.secureserver.net.
Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
Dear Lady, dear Sir,
Best wishes,
With many thanks in advance,
Herzlichst,
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Mit freundlichen Grüßen und bestem Dank im Voraus,
Andreas Dress
==================================
Prof. Dr. Andreas Dress
德乐思
Director em
Department of Combinatorics and Geometry (DCG)
CAS-MPG Partner Institute and Key Lab for Computational Biology (PICB)
Shanghai Institutes for Biological Sciences (SIBS)
Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS)
Address:320 Yue Yang Road, Shanghai, China
Postcode:200031
Tel: 86-21-549 204 58
Fax: 86-21-549 204 51
Web:www.picb.ac.cn
email: and...@picb.ac.cn
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts (Richard Feynman).
Dear KashyapAmanda Gefter may only be a science journalist, but she has a PhD in the philosophy of science from the University of London, and I find her understanding of modern physics to be at a very deep level. I have not read anyone who writes about the nature of ontology (what exists in reality) with greater authority or insight. The irony is "Nothing is ultimately real", not even the science that demonstrates through logical deductive reasoning that "Nothing is ultimately real". You've got to love the irony of that. In the immortal words of Morpheus in the Matrix, "It would seem that reality is not without a sense of humor". The irony of using the logical consistency of science to prove that "Nothing is ultimately real" is very much like the use of a paradox of self-reference in the Gödel incompleteness theorem to prove a logically consistent mathematical system can never prove its own logical consistency. If this doesn't make your head spin, I don't know what will.
<image001.jpg>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6K6dweGd8HfmGti3fpTqE1Z0Tts_T1sMBsLqMKVsJrPCg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
American Indians smoke peyote for a spiritual experience.It is funny. Every now and then I get the whimsical notion that it may be I am god and being alone in theexistence everything and everyone in my existence is a creation of my mind for my own entertainment.
The only problem is, that means I must be a masochist to have to endure what is more like torture in theeverything and everyone I have created in my environment....... LOLSo, that theory quickly falls apart.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/20170602023727.62043695fdfcd29cd3ec981135c49e25.8e92c2efdc.wbe%40email09.secureserver.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hi Jim,
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6KjRhBEoKPWjAVtjDQEfq2ryKaxRhxNy83TjB%3DPxmU04g%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/DAFC202F-043F-4FDC-8163-BFD709A7A068%40aol.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6L0%2By2HdqPyAoa8T_dhYzDiQT9-QgO2yyYj%3D5FCfCkxOg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/b7214e4576144f6fbe61d46ee6a92b28%40IN-CCI-EX03.ads.iu.edu.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6K6dweGd8HfmGti3fpTqE1Z0Tts_T1sMBsLqMKVsJrPCg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/87435375-D830-4056-8409-39E0816D02BC%40ulb.ac.be.
Yes something is ultimately real, which is the undifferentiated (nondual) consciousness (awareness) of the void, which in all non-dual traditions (like the Tao, Zen and Advaita) is called nothingness. As Jed McKenna likes to say "have you got something against nothing?"
On the subject of solipsism, read Amanda Gefter's wonderful essay "Cosmic Solipsism"
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B%3DhjCkNqXYkmN6RipKwyBBYzKm85ejUh-32t8Vcxa47A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Dear Bruno,
Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) wrote a century back and his book The Life Divine draws from diverse sources, both Indian and Western. He conceives existence as a cyclic process of 1) Involution of highest consciousness as matter and then its 2) Evolution from matter to life and then mind etc. He postulates that Supermind is the next rung in this ladder of consciousness. He avoids prescribing any set method but advises that higher states of consciousness can be accessed by a volitional process of self-exceeding.
Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else. But my basic point is, if it is the question of consciousness, then why bring in numbers or machines instead of, say, poetry, which Sri Aurobindo himself preferred. This is not in any way to belittle your professional field of work, competence, or preference.
Wishing you all the best,
Tusar
June 6, 2017
http://selforum.blogspot.com/
http://savitriera.blogspot.com/
Hi Jim,
Hi Jim,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6K6dweGd8HfmGti3fpTqE1Z0Tts_T1sMBsLqMKVsJrPCg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/87435375-D830-4056-8409-39E0816D02BC%40ulb.ac.be.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B%3DhjCkNqXYkmN6RipKwyBBYzKm85ejUh-32t8Vcxa47A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/D2E51E18-2049-47D8-AE36-917A15D93855%40ulb.ac.be.
The concept of countable numbers (arithmetic) comes into existence like everything else in the world. There must be a source of arithmetic that is not itself reducible to arithmetic. That's how I've come to understand the significance of the Godel incompleteness theorems. The logical consistency of arithmetic can only arise from the source, not from arithmetic itself. I'd call the source of arithmetic the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. So how does this happen in practical (mechanistic) terms? When dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that only expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) is expended and the world is created (along the lines of the big bang event), a cosmic horizon arises (due to the limitation of the speed of light) that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space. If non-commutative geometry is applied to the horizon, bits of information are encoded in a binary code of 1's and 0's (essentially the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is specified in terms of the surface area A of the horizon as n=A/4(Planck area), which is the holographic principle). This is how arithmetic arises, essentially through a process of the quantization of the horizon into pixels about the size of a Planck area, where each pixel encodes a bit of information.
This creation of arithmetic cannot happen unless dark energy is expended, since that is how the observer's horizon arises. In the lingo, the horizon is observer-dependent. I'd call the expenditure of dark energy and the application of non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon geometric mechanisms. Where do these geometric mechanisms come from? They somehow arise from the vacuum state, which we call the void. But it doesn't stop there. The focal point of consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the horizon also has to arise from the void. That's why I'd say the void is undifferentiated consciousness, with the potential to both express dark energy (create a world) and differentiate itself into the perceiving consciousness of the observer that perceives that world. In some sense, this is an intentional creation.
An interesting point is what exactly does the undifferentiated consciousness of the void mean?
The undifferentiated consciousness of the void doesn't mean anything. As Jed McKenna likes to say "It Is". Neuroscience tells us all meaning is established in an energetic (emotional) context. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before any energy is expended, before the world is created, and before any meaning is given to anything in the world. It is the primordial, timeless nature of existence. It is the ultimate nature of existence that creates the world through the expenditure of energy. It exists before energy is expended, before the course of time begins to flow, and before anything is created. Meaning can only be given to things in that world as energy is expended and that world is created and perceived. It is the source of all the creative energy and perceiving consciousness that allows a world to be created and perceived.
The holographic principle tells us that everything in that world is composed of bits of information encoded on a holographic screen (horizon), while the observer of that world is only a focal point of consciousness present at the central point of view (singularity) of that world. All the images of that world are projected from the screen to the observer and are animated over a sequence of screen outputs that occur in the flow of energy. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before energy is expended and the screen and the observer come into existence.
There's nothing magical, mystical or supernatural about the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. It's natural but not personal. It's the true nature of what you are, which isn't a person. The person is just the central character in the projected and animated world you're perceiving. Everything is perceivable. The true nature of what you are isn't. It is the Source.
Hi Jim,
Hi Jim,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6K6dweGd8HfmGti3fpTqE1Z0Tts_T1sMBsLqMKVsJrPCg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/87435375-D830-4056-8409-39E0816D02BC%40ulb.ac.be.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B%3DhjCkNqXYkmN6RipKwyBBYzKm85ejUh-32t8Vcxa47A%40mail.gmail.com.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/D2E51E18-2049-47D8-AE36-917A15D93855%40ulb.ac.be.
Dear Bruno,
Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) wrote a century back and his book The Life Divine draws from diverse sources, both Indian and Western. He conceives existence as a cyclic process of 1) Involution of highest consciousness as matter
and then its 2) Evolution from matter to life and then mind etc. He postulates that Supermind is the next rung in this ladder of consciousness. He avoids prescribing any set method but advises that higher states of consciousness can be accessed by a volitional process of self-exceeding.
Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.
But my basic point is, if it is the question of consciousness, then why bring in numbers or machines instead of, say, poetry, which Sri Aurobindo himself preferred. This is not in any way to belittle your professional field of work, competence, or preference.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CA%2BLR%2B%3DV6u6kd3Tp44ymWChk85T6QCO0yrz1UGG84h%3DHFrQ%3DCyg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.
Maybe. I see it as a step toward the contemplation era. Today we are in the "production era".
Dear Bruno,
Thanks for your considered reply. It appears that what I am asking for coincides with C.P. Snow's Two Cultures dichotomy. So, it's actually a question of competence and because of my modest education, average intelligence, and limited memory, I perhaps prefer to rely wholly upon Sri Aurobindo's theory instead of searching for truth all by myself.
That said, I will certainly not deprive myself of all the benefits that science and technology brings in course of time.
Wishing you all the best and success in your professional field,
Tusar (b.1955)
June 7, 2017
http://savitriera.blogspot.in/2016/12/there-is-no-unmixed-victory.html
Dear Tusar,
Hi Jim,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B%3DhjCkNqXYkmN6RipKwyBBYzKm85ejUh-32t8Vcxa47A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/D2E51E18-2049-47D8-AE36-917A15D93855%40ulb.ac.be.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CA%2BLR%2B%3DV6u6kd3Tp44ymWChk85T6QCO0yrz1UGG84h%3DHFrQ%3DCyg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit
...
Mathematical concepts are perceivable. Nisargadatta Maharaj (in the Advaita tradition of Shankara) makes the point that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot itself be a perceivable object that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That would create a paradox of self-reference and lead to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot itself be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things. Since the holographic principle tells us that the configuration states of all the perceivable things are reducible to bits of information encoded on the observer's holographic screen (horizon), while the perceiving consciousness of the observer can only be localized to the central point of view (singularity) of the horizon, this tells us the source of both the screen and the perceiving consciousness of the observer can only be identified as the void. Whatever the void is, it is not perceivable, but rather is the Source of perception. All we can ever say about the void is "It Exists".
Solipsism (in the sense of cosmic solipsism), which tells us the only thing you can ever know with certainty is that you exist, is a natural consequence of the holographic principle, as every observer has its own world defined on its own holographic screen that arises as dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the central point of view of the observer) is expended and an observer-dependent cosmic horizon arises. A consensual reality only becomes possible if the horizons of different observers overlap (in the sense of a Venn diagram) and share information, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens (like the internet). The logical conclusion of solipsism is the ultimate nature of your individual existence (and by inference all of existence) is the void. Ultimately, Atman (your individual spirit or consciousness) is Brahman (the Supreme Spirit). The ultimate reunion of individual consciousness with the undivided consciousness of Brahman is called the path of return, and is the ultimate goal of all spiritual traditions.
Dear Tusar,
...
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CA%2BLR%2B%3DWVWjKitm4XRnu%3DBjsavOR3t7dT1qqMPdjtiTPrrGnfMA%40mail.gmail.com.
Hi BrunoThe concept of countable numbers (arithmetic) comes into existence like everything else in the world.
There must be a source of arithmetic that is not itself reducible to arithmetic.
That's how I've come to understand the significance of the Godel incompleteness theorems.
The logical consistency of arithmetic can only arise from the source, not from arithmetic itself.
I'd call the source of arithmetic the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. So how does this happen in practical (mechanistic) terms? When dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that only expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) is expended and the world is created (along the lines of the big bang event), a cosmic horizon arises (due to the limitation of the speed of light) that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space. If non-commutative geometry is applied to the horizon, bits of information are encoded in a binary code of 1's and 0's (essentially the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is specified in terms of the surface area A of the horizon as n=A/4(Planck area), which is the holographic principle). This is how arithmetic arises, essentially through a process of the quantization of the horizon into pixels about the size of a Planck area, where each pixel encodes a bit of information.
This creation of arithmetic cannot happen unless dark energy is expended,
since that is how the observer's horizon arises. In the lingo, the horizon is observer-dependent. I'd call the expenditure of dark energy and the application of non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon geometric mechanisms. Where do these geometric mechanisms come from? They somehow arise from the vacuum state, which we call the void. But it doesn't stop there. The focal point of consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the horizon also has to arise from the void. That's why I'd say the void is undifferentiated consciousness, with the potential to both express dark energy (create a world) and differentiate itself into the perceiving consciousness of the observer that perceives that world. In some sense, this is an intentional creation.
An interesting point is what exactly does the undifferentiated consciousness of the void mean?
The undifferentiated consciousness of the void doesn't mean anything. As Jed McKenna likes to say "It Is".
Neuroscience tells us all meaning is established in an energetic (emotional) context.
The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before any energy is expended, before the world is created, and before any meaning is given to anything in the world. It is the primordial, timeless nature of existence.
It is the ultimate nature of existence that creates the world through the expenditure of energy. It exists before energy is expended, before the course of time begins to flow, and before anything is created. Meaning can only be given to things in that world as energy is expended and that world is created and perceived. It is the source of all the creative energy and perceiving consciousness that allows a world to be created and perceived.
The holographic principle tells us that everything in that world is composed of bits of information encoded on a holographic screen (horizon), while the observer of that world is only a focal point of consciousness present at the central point of view (singularity) of that world. All the images of that world are projected from the screen to the observer and are animated over a sequence of screen outputs that occur in the flow of energy. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before energy is expended and the screen and the observer come into existence.
There's nothing magical, mystical or supernatural about the undifferentiated consciousness of the void.
It's natural but not personal. It's the true nature of what you are, which isn't a person.
The person is just the central character in the projected and animated world you're perceiving. Everything is perceivable. The true nature of what you are isn't. It is the Source.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6LykX2mq%3DC%2BiZvAreqYkYahcj2i%3Dnibg-GLVm9G%2B895Xg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
It's important that we clearly define our terms and examine our assumptions. If we do so, it's my opinion that our little disagreement can be easily resolved. The basic problem is the concept of infinity.
All mathematical concepts are perceivable things. My basic point is that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That kind of assumption creates a paradox of self-reference and leads to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things.
I find the mistake you've made is to assume that when I'm referring to the source of perceiving consciousness I'm referring to some finite thing, like the number zero. I'm not. The source of perceiving consciousness is not some finite thing, but rather is unlimited in the sense of infinity. Once we introduce the concept of infinity, all the conclusions that we can draw based on finite mathematical concepts become problematic, as theoretical physicists that work on quantum field theory have discovered to their chagrin. They have a big problem with the concept of infinity.
I'm saying the source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite thing and isn't perceivable, but it gives rise to all finite things that are perceivable. It creates all the finite perceivable things. Even an observable world is a finite perceivable thing. If we consider an observable world that is only composed of dark energy, the holographic principle tells us that the total number of bits of information that describe that world (the maximal entropy of that world) is given in terms of the surface area A of a cosmic horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view of that world as n=A/4(Planck area), where the surface area of the observer's cosmic horizon is specified in terms of the cosmological constant of that world.
The source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite perceivable thing, but it creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. The source of perceiving consciousness can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which can be called the void or non-dual consciousness. Through its energetic expressions, the void creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. It does this through the expression of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that always expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) and the holographic encoding of a finite number of bits of information on a cosmic horizon (which can be understood in the sense of non-commutative geometry). If you want to say these creative expressions are constrained in terms of the axioms of arithmetic, I've no problem with that constraint, since this constraint only applies to the finite perceivable things and not to the source of perceiving consciousness, which is not a finite perceivable thing and by its nature is unlimited.
By the way, this problem with the concept of infinity explains why the quantum field theory description of the vacuum state is not trustworthy. This is the same problem with the quantum field theory description of inflationary cosmology. The holographic principle tells us we have to rely on a trustworthy theory of quantum gravity, not field theory. As Tom Banks has pointed out, all trustworthy theories of quantum gravity are observer-centric, since the observer's holographic screen always arises as an observer-dependent horizon, like a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that arises as dark energy is expended (in the sense of a positive cosmological constant). Quantum field theory is at best an effective (thermal average) description of the world that is only valid as a low energy limit. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) description of the space-time geometry that is projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer. We can then understand quantum field theory as arising from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric (in the sense of 11-dimensional super-gravity) as extra components of the metric that arise with the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. At best, quantum field theory can only describe a false vacuum state, not the true vacuum state (the void). A false vacuum state is always a meta-stable state characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy, which gives rise to the observer's cosmic horizon (holographic screen). As Leonard Susskind has pointed out, the true vacuum state (the void) has zero dark energy and so has no cosmic horizon. The true vacuum state has no holographic screen and no observer. The observer's world only arises with a cosmic horizon and is created as a false vacuum (meta-stable) state with a non-zero value of dark energy. The true vacuum state has a zero value of dark energy and has absolute stability. As Amanda Gefter has pointed out in her book, the true vacuum state can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which is the nature of non-dual consciousness.
Hi Jim,
Jim
Hi Jim,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B%3DhjCkNqXYkmN6RipKwyBBYzKm85ejUh-32t8Vcxa47A%40mail.gmail.com.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/D2E51E18-2049-47D8-AE36-917A15D93855%40ulb.ac.be.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6LykX2mq%3DC%2BiZvAreqYkYahcj2i%3Dnibg-GLVm9G%2B895Xg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/8B41D3EC-C3A0-4494-B4C7-4F897D016ACF%40ulb.ac.be.
Thanks for your considered reply. It appears that what I am asking for coincides with C.P. Snow's Two Cultures dichotomy. So, it's actually a question of competence and because of my modest education, average intelligence, and limited memory, I perhaps prefer to rely wholly upon Sri Aurobindo's theory instead of searching for truth all by myself.
That said, I will certainly not deprive myself of all the benefits that science and technology brings in course of time.
Wishing you all the best and success in your professional field,
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CA%2BLR%2B%3DWVWjKitm4XRnu%3DBjsavOR3t7dT1qqMPdjtiTPrrGnfMA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Good morning, Bruno!Every one of us has struggles we are called to face up to, for our spiritual evolution. This morning, it was really incredible for me to see two related messages next to each other in my inbox, one of them yours, especially:On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:(And I just now note our reference to a book by Daniel Cohen, and I wonder whether it might possibly be the same Daniel Cohen I knew at Princeton long ago)Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.
Maybe. I see it as a step toward the contemplation era. Today we are in the "production era".
The other being an article from the Wall Street Journal, from a network aligned with the outgoing (lingering?) science policy czars:A Hardware Update for the Human Brain
From Silicon Valley startups to the U.S. Department of Defense, scientists and engineers are hard at work on a brain-computer interface that could turn us into programmable, debuggable machines
EMILY BORGHARD has a computer inside her skull, but you wouldn’t know it to look at her. A small bump behind her left ear, the only external evidence of her implant, is partially covered by a tuft of hair that’s still growing in from the last time she had the batteries changed.
Before Borghard received a brain implant, she was having as many as 400 “spikes” of seizure-like activity a day, along with multiple seizures. This unrelenting storm of abnormal neural activity turned her teenage years into a semiconscious nightmare.
===================================The article strongly endorsed a vision of Brain Computer Interface explicitly intended to turn humans into well-controlled peripheral units of the Internet of Things, very similar to the helmets depicted in the most recent movie in the Star Wars sequence (or in the Winter Soldier movie which my son insisted I see).One of the details which rattles me even more than it rattles you is the way they think of "spikes." It reminds me that all this heavy technological intervention is in fact based on deep ignorance of the actual neural code, as we see it in actual scientific analysis of 24khz data from higher centers of the brain:See: Regular Cycles of Forward and Backward Signal Propagation in Prefrontal Cortex and in Consciousness, by Paul Werbos and Yeshua (J.J.) Davis, Front. Syst. Neurosci., 28 November 2016. (Note the clickable link to the open access paper.) It is "can do" manipulative intervention no more justified than the frontal lobotomies which once were popular.
The effect is not to develop deeper, higher bandwidth mundane communication, but rather to corrupt the reinforcement centers of the brain,exactly like the opiate drugs which impair many people's spiritual growth along with their physical well-being, and convert people into puppetsof greedy drug-dealers.
I do not see these stories as a call to go to extremes. On the one hand, we really are called to understand ourselves better, which includes the development of serious brain science and barin understanding as one part of it. Understanding the mathematics of intelligent systems also offers a kind of "reality testing" to our own higher intelligence, just as higher physics and pure mathematics do. But we are walking a difficult tightrope.
It is a difficult balance. These two inputs are only one example of contrasting, conflicting inputs spiralling out of balance, and it is not obvious how to stabilize the system while maintaining progress.But certainly the effort to being spiritual growth and science back into balance in human thinking is an important positive step.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CACLqmgdCrmTYaW8sCfZz4R1h76c5y11bGkJbpgn3%2B0CLgmQ5sA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Dear Bruno and VinodIt's important that we clearly define our terms and examine our assumptions.
If we do so, it's my opinion that our little disagreement can be easily resolved. The basic problem is the concept of infinity.All mathematical concepts are perceivable things.
My basic point is that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing
that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That kind of assumption creates a paradox of self-reference and leads to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things.
I find the mistake you've made is to assume that when I'm referring to the source of perceiving consciousness I'm referring to some finite thing, like the number zero. I'm not. The source of perceiving consciousness is not some finite thing,
but rather is unlimited in the sense of infinity.
Once we introduce the concept of infinity, all the conclusions that we can draw based on finite mathematical concepts become problematic, as theoretical physicists that work on quantum field theory have discovered to their chagrin. They have a big problem with the concept of infinity.
I'm saying the source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite thing and isn't perceivable, but it gives rise to all finite things that are perceivable.
It creates all the finite perceivable things.
Even an observable world is a finite perceivable thing.
If we consider an observable world that is only composed of dark energy, the holographic principle tells us that the total number of bits of information that describe that world (the maximal entropy of that world) is given in terms of the surface area A of a cosmic horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view of that world as n=A/4(Planck area), where the surface area of the observer's cosmic horizon is specified in terms of the cosmological constant of that world.The source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite perceivable thing, but it creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. The source of perceiving consciousness can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which can be called the void or non-dual consciousness. Through its energetic expressions, the void creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. It does this through the expression of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that always expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) and the holographic encoding of a finite number of bits of information on a cosmic horizon (which can be understood in the sense of non-commutative geometry). If you want to say these creative expressions are constrained in terms of the axioms of arithmetic, I've no problem with that constraint, since this constraint only applies to the finite perceivable things and not to the source of perceiving consciousness, which is not a finite perceivable thing and by its nature is unlimited.By the way, this problem with the concept of infinity explains why the quantum field theory description of the vacuum state is not trustworthy. This is the same problem with the quantum field theory description of inflationary cosmology. The holographic principle tells us we have to rely on a trustworthy theory of quantum gravity, not field theory. As Tom Banks has pointed out, all trustworthy theories of quantum gravity are observer-centric, since the observer's holographic screen always arises as an observer-dependent horizon, like a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that arises as dark energy is expended (in the sense of a positive cosmological constant). Quantum field theory is at best an effective (thermal average) description of the world that is only valid as a low energy limit. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) description of the space-time geometry that is projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer. We can then understand quantum field theory as arising from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric (in the sense of 11-dimensional super-gravity) as extra components of the metric that arise with the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. At best, quantum field theory can only describe a false vacuum state, not the true vacuum state (the void). A false vacuum state is always a meta-stable state characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy, which gives rise to the observer's cosmic horizon (holographic screen). As Leonard Susskind has pointed out, the true vacuum state (the void) has zero dark energy and so has no cosmic horizon. The true vacuum state has no holographic screen and no observer. The observer's world only arises with a cosmic horizon and is created as a false vacuum (meta-stable) state with a non-zero value of dark energy. The true vacuum state has a zero value of dark energy and has absolute stability. As Amanda Gefter has pointed out in her book, the true vacuum state can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which is the nature of non-dual consciousness.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6JsbL1w4ZHYsxbCMKPZUJs%3DoJQpaSoxiMPu14bAnX-%2B%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
...
[Message clipped]
Hi BrunoThank you for your detailed reply. There are probably many ways in which we could continue this discussion, but it's probably best if we agree to disagree.
I would point out that ultimate reality can ultimately be directly experienced, as in becoming a Buddha and awakening from the dream.
When one awakens from the dream, everything in the dream disappears and only the true nature of one's underlying reality remains.
Maybe we'll have to wait for such an awakening before we can really know. The irony of course is that when one awakens, one knows nothing. In a peculiar way, one has to become willing to die.
To know nothing, one has to become willing to do nothing and to be nothing.
In the Tao and Zen this is called becoming desireless. If you'd like to read about what reaching this ultimate state of existence is like, I'd recommend Nisargadatta Maharaj (I Am That) and Jed McKenna (Spiritual Enlightenment Trilogy). Until we finally reach the end and directly experience our own awakening from the dream, all we can do is engage in what appears to be an endless debate about the true nature of reality.
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B_hpK0N4cPTixiAtiuCjKV2cwhEYNX3eFd0Lia7qu6rg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hi Jim,
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2B_hpK0N4cPTixiAtiuCjKV2cwhEYNX3eFd0Lia7qu6rg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/ECEC4C4D-73C4-47FA-A5D6-C4098B8C0F68%40ulb.ac.be.
Dear Bruno and Vinod
I agree with Vinod that the experience of the ultimate nothingness (awakening from the dream; not awakening within the dream like lucid dreaming) is beyond our mental capacity to understand in conceptual terms.
Joseph Campbell liked to say "No words have ever soiled it".
Although it cannot be conceptualized, it does seem that when it is directly experienced there is certainty that it is the ultimate reality.
In the Matrix (which borrows heavily from theology) when Neo returns to the ultimate state of reality (the source) the machines say "It is done". The Matrix also quotes the book of Revelation by calling it "The Beginning and the End", implying the primordial (timeless) nature of existence (the I Am state) from which all temporal states of existence originate and to which they must return. Nisargadatta Maharaj says "Before all beginnings, after all endings, I Am".
Jed McKenna says the same thing, and as a shorthand designation calls it "Done". So although we cannot conceptualize it in mental terms, it seems that when you (more specifically your individual consciousness) directly experiences it, you know with absolute certainty that you are in the ultimate state or the underlying reality (ground of being) that remains when everything (including the space, time, matter and energy of a world) disappears.
The best description I've ever heard is the concept of dissolution (as in Nirvana, or blowing out the flame of life). When everything disappears and only the underlying reality remains, one's individual consciousness dissolves back into the infinite nothingness of undifferentiated consciousness like a drop of water dissolves into the ocean.
In the Tao this is referred to as the light of consciousness returning to the darkness. "Ever desireless one can see the mystery. Ever desiring one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source. This appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery." The Bhagavad-Gita says much the same thing about the ultimate I Am state. "The unreal has no being. The real never ceases to be."
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2BWVkEOgO7O8-8SWwCxSQcnnSaLJc7T4AoBEsFnY9N%3D6A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Jim
Hi Jim,
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/ECEC4C4D-73C4-47FA-A5D6-C4098B8C0F68%40ulb.ac.be.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6%2BWVkEOgO7O8-8SWwCxSQcnnSaLJc7T4AoBEsFnY9N%3D6A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/BF6E0405-26F8-4602-BE55-F0AE3F9542F2%40ulb.ac.be.
Hi Bruno
Joseph Campbell was quoting the Upanishads "Beyond names and forms. No tongue has soiled it, no word has reached it".
Jed McKenna defines "Done" as "No Further". This is the part we can't conceptualize. When you reach "Infinity" there is "no further". How can you go beyond infinity? The concept of "dissolution into infinity" is the best I've got. :)
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHX4Y6J9OwcsiDkmcN-EEc2fF%2BMetGBT-rE17Ej22ExUGcULJA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.