Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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May 22, 2019, 7:50:00 AM5/22/19
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Thanks, Kashyap.


If we unpack the inseparability between physical (p) and nonphysical (np) aspects of a state of an entity in terms of entanglement, then we need to assume that p and np were initially separable before preparation/manifestation, and somehow they were brought closer and made them entangled. This is in essence dualism, which has 13 problems. Then the onus will be on us to address these unresolvable problems. Physicalism and idealism have their own problems. I was not able to resolve these problems; this is one of the reasons, the eDAM was developed. Thus, this route may not work unless you are successful in addressing these problems.

 

I think that we have to postulate that the primal entity is a dual-aspect substrate, from which entities interdependently co-arose/co-evolved/co-manifested with dual-aspect states, which entail four types of inseparability[i].


[i] There are four types of inseparability (1:1 bidirectional relationship) hypothesis within the respective critical spatiotemporal-spectral interval (CSTSI):

(1) The subject (Self)-related inseparability is between the non-physical aspect and the physical aspect of a Self (subject)-related beable ontic (conscious) state of the subject’s mind-brain system for the subjective experience (SE) of subject such as Self-certainty (Reason, 2019).

(2) The object-subject-related inseparability is between the non-physical aspect and the physical aspect of an object-related beable ontic (conscious) state of the subject’s mind-brain system for the subjective experience, cognition, function or pattern/form of the object.

(3) The subject-object-related inseparability is between the subject and an object during their engagement (within the related CSTSI) for the subjective experience of the object by the Self, i.e., when the subject attends the object. After completion, subject separates from this object and attends another object. In terms of neural-physical signals, the interaction is between the subject(self)- and object-related neural-physical signals (physical aspects) within the mind-brain system.

(4) The inert-object-related inseparability is between the non-physical aspect and the physical aspect of a state of an inert system for pattern/form or function.

 

The inseparability holds only within related critical spatiotemporal-spectral interval (CSTSI) in which the state of the entity remains invariant. If state changes then the new state have its own inseparable aspects.

 

 




Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

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Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools



On Tuesday, 21 May, 2019, 8:11:21 am GMT-4, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:


Hi Ram,

I have not read much about nondemolition type measurements . But I have heard some quite severe criticisms of these and so called “weak measurements” . They say that these are not really quantum measurements. They are perhaps closest to classical measurements. So I would think that if you want to look at inseparability , quantum entanglements are best. But I have not studied these. So I could be wrong.

Best.

Kashyap

 

From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness [mailto:scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:34 PM
To: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement

 

Thanks, Kashyap. It makes sense. My query is: is entanglement conserved in (i) demolition type measurements and (ii) nondemolition type measurements?

 

As per (Wikipedia, 20May2019), “Quantum nondemolition (QND) measurement is a special type of measurement of a quantum system in which the uncertainty of the measured observable does not increase from its measured value during the subsequent normal evolution of the system. This necessarily requires that the measurement process preserve the physical integrity of the measured system, and moreover places requirements on the relationship between the measured observable and the self-Hamiltonian of the system. In a sense, QND measurements are the "most classical" and least disturbing type of measurement in quantum mechanics.

 

Most devices capable of detecting a single particle and measuring its position strongly modify the particle's state in the measurement process, e.g. photons are destroyed when striking a screen. Less dramatically, the measurement may simply perturb the particle in an unpredictable way; a second measurement, no matter how quickly after the first, is then not guaranteed to find the particle in the same location. Even for ideal, "first-kind" projective measurements in which the particle is in the measured eigenstate immediately after the measurement, the subsequent free evolution of the particle will cause uncertainty in position to quickly grow.

 

In contrast, a momentum (rather than position) measurement of a free particle can be QND because the momentum distribution is preserved by the particle's self-Hamiltonian p2/2m.

 

Note that the term "nondemolition" does not imply that the wave function fails to collapse.

 

QND measurements are extremely difficult to carry out experimentally. Much of the investigation into QND measurements was motivated by the desire to avoid the standard quantum limit in the experimental detection of gravitational waves. The general theory of QND measurements was laid out by Braginsky, Vorontsov, and Thorne[1] following much theoretical work by Braginsky, Caves, Drever, Hollenhorts, Khalili, Sandberg, Thorne, Unruh, Vorontsov, and Zimmermann. […] It has been argued that the usage of the term QND does not add anything to the usual notion of a strong quantum measurement and can moreover be confusing because of the two different interpretations of demolition in a quantum system (losing the quantum state vs. losing the particle) (Monroe, 2011, on Demolishing Quantum Nondemolition). "

 

It is unclear if entanglement is conserved in (i) demolition type measurements and (ii) nondemolition type measurements.

 

 

BTW, “no soul”/“no God” Buddhism seems to differ from the Sankhya/Vedanta on the view related to death and rebirth and Karma. Please watch this video carefully Dependent Origination or interdependent co-arising by Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu, Dec 22, 2010 (~30min video). I felt that if we simply understand the “ignorance,” then it is like rebirth (even though we are still alive); otherwise, there is no rebirth after death, similar to atheist science: is this correct? Some propose rebirth to account for bad karma, but usual rebirth is not true; we die means we really die because the “Self” dies as science proposes. There seems to be no “self-certainty” after death. Thus, Cathy’s GT theorem does not seem to reject materialism and Buddhism based on “self-certainty” argument.

 

 

Cheers!

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

 

 

On Monday, 20 May, 2019, 2:33:48 pm GMT-4, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

 

 

Cathy and Ram,

The way I look at entanglement is that the two particle wave function is created under a specific Hamiltonian and will remain unchanged until the Hamiltonian changes. The Hamiltonian can change by a specific deliberate attempt of measurement at the detectors by the experimenter or the two particles encounter some other environmental Hamiltonian (like a swarm of electrons, atoms or impurities in the glass tubes etc.) before they reach the detectors. In the latter case entanglement fidelity will be broken say it can go down from 98% to 79% etc.

Also this has nothing to do with frames of reference. Every observer will see this decoherence.

Best.

Kashyap

 

From: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com [mailto:scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 1:07 PM
To: Scientific Basis of Consciousness <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement

 



Cathy Reason wrote:


Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal wrote:

I am not sure but if it is a destructive/demolition type of measurement, then entanglement is not preserved because there is nothing to entangle with. Perhaps, Kashyap can tell us better.


Superpositions persist indefinitely under unitary evolution.  To destroy the entanglement in this way, you have to destroy the superposition, and that requires some form of measurement postulate.

I guess I should add that this is the theoretician's way of looking at it.  An experimentalist could quite reasonably say that the entanglement has collapsed because it is no longer detectable.

Cathy


Cathy

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John Jay Kineman

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May 22, 2019, 3:44:26 PM5/22/19
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Ram,  I think this is a non-sequitur if viewed in a broader sense. If (p) and (np) are different logical types, one (p) allowing for localized definition of states and the other (np) allowing only for qualia and not localized measurement, then the whole concept of their separability goes away. There is no “separability” as such between a thing and its context, even though the two are distinguishable as very different kinds of natural existence. But if the proposal of inseparability is state-based on both sides, that is why it is problematic. Two states can be separated, but a local state and a non-local condition (call it a “state” metaphorically if you wish) cannot be separate in any physical sense, only in the logical sense of being of different categories. Now the relation between a localizable event and its formal context cannot be treated in the same way as efficient entailments (traditional causality) within a category of local events. Hence there is no category error in relating contents of these two types of category, if and only if we introduce a different operator than efficient cause - we have to introduce final and formal cause as operators, which are functors. Those are not unique relations but information relations in which information is never complete. That is quite different from efficient causes in which the causality is presumed to be complete (it is only approximately so, as we know from QM).

John

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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May 22, 2019, 3:44:57 PM5/22/19
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Thanks, John.


I have the following queries:

 

Q1. Why do you consider qualia (np) of red ball non-local and its NCC (p) local in space-time? To me, both are localized in space-time.

 

Q2. Do you mean the category error between np and p occurs only in the efficient cause because it implies interaction, not in other causes? My understanding is that for a relationship between A and B, both need to interact.

 

Q3. Your definition of “state” seems different from mine; so what is your definition of the word “state”? My definition is the same what QM has, i.e., for example, an electron can be in the ground state or excited state; wavefunction is a quantum state.




Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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May 22, 2019, 3:45:18 PM5/22/19
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Thanks, John.

I have also replied in another email.

I hope that you agree on the redness of a local red-apple does not spill out of the boundary of the apple and this redness is inseparable with the red-apple. Therefore, the color subjective experience (SE) is localized within the boundary of the apple. I do not understand why you want to make redness non-local in spacetime (eternally everywhere in the universe). In other words, p and np aspects of a beable ontic (conscious) state of a subject’s mindbrain system, which is local within the mindbrain system but appears as the SE redness is projected on the localized apple wherever it is located in the world out there.

 

You wrote, “I think it goes too far to postulate that both [p and np] can be represented by similar logical categories of states”.

 

There is a single (not two) beable ontic conscious state of a mindbrain system. This single state has two inseparable aspects p and np. These aspects are NOT separate; hence they are inseparable. Can we separate redness (np) from the apple (p)? The answer is NO.

 

For you, p and np appear two different logical categories of states; for you, there are two different logical categories: p-state and np-state; p-state not equal to np-state.

 

For me, the p and np belong to the same beable ontic conscious state of the mindbrain system; there are no two different physical and/or nonphysical states. They appear different because the perspectives of “viewing” are different; from the subject’s 1pp, it (“effective” informative: EI) appears as np; and from the subject’s 3pp, the same EI appears as p. In this sense, p and np are identical and you can argue that the eDAM is close to dual-aspect identity theory.

 

Perhaps, for you, since the perspectives of “viewing” are different, there are two different logical states, namely, p-state and np-state. For you (and perhaps I tend to agree), logically, the p-state of a mindbrain system is different from the np-state of the same mindbrain system: is this correct? For you, since p and np states are logically different, you can postulate that np is nonlocal, but why and what is the use? For me, both p and np are within the boundary of apple so they are local.



Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

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Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

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On Wednesday, 22 May, 2019, 10:20:31 am GMT-4, John Kineman <kin...@colorado.edu> wrote:


I posted in response to this same comment on Sadhu Sanga and copied to this list. I think there is a solution in the relational view.

I agree with your fundamental conclusion, that the p-np entity must be whole - the basis of eDAM. However, I think it goes too far to postulate that both can be represented by similar logical categories of states. I'll try an example using one of your analogies, Redness. An apple, say, is red. An orange is likewise orange. The apple can be separated from the orange because these are in logical categories that have localized states - position. So their positions can be different. But the redness and the orangeness are not localized - they do not have positions that an be separated. They have qualities. The redness cannot be separated from the apple because they are related by context. Apples are in the contextual/formal domain of redness. Apples are localized instances of redness, which is a non-localized quality. In fact, an apple can turn brown without any separability between the apple and the different logical category in which color resides and is mutable.  If you add this mutability to eDAM then I think it solves both problems - it allows for evolution and shifting relations while also avoiding the duality. Context is what makes what otherwise would be "dual", actually be logically non-dual. I have been contemplating this a lot during our discussions and so far have seen no argument against it. The important thing is it solves the problem you are after without overly limiting causality (in the broader sense of formal and final causes).

John


On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 8:14:34 AM UTC-6, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal wrote:
Thanks, Kashyap.


If we unpack the inseparability between physical (p) and nonphysical (np) aspects of a state of an entity in terms of entanglement, then we need to assume that p and np were initially separable before preparation/manifestation, and somehow they were brought closer and made them entangled. This is in essence dualism, which has 13 problems. Then the onus will be on us to address these unresolvable problems. Physicalism and idealism have their own problems. I was not able to resolve these problems; this is one of the reasons, the eDAM was developed. Thus, this route may not work unless you are successful in addressing these problems.

 

I think that we have to postulate that the primal entity is a dual-aspect substrate, from which entities interdependently co-arose/co-evolved/co- manifested with dual-aspect states, which entail four types of inseparability[i].

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

 

 

On Monday, 20 May, 2019, 2:33:48 pm GMT-4, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

 

 

Cathy and Ram,

The way I look at entanglement is that the two particle wave function is created under a specific Hamiltonian and will remain unchanged until the Hamiltonian changes. The Hamiltonian can change by a specific deliberate attempt of measurement at the detectors by the experimenter or the two particles encounter some other environmental Hamiltonian (like a swarm of electrons, atoms or impurities in the glass tubes etc.) before they reach the detectors. In the latter case entanglement fidelity will be broken say it can go down from 98% to 79% etc.

Also this has nothing to do with frames of reference. Every observer will see this decoherence.

Best.

Kashyap

 

From: scientific-basis-of- consci...@googlegroups.com [mailto:scientific-basis-of- consci...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 1:07 PM
To: Scientific Basis of Consciousness <scientific-basis-of- consci...@googlegroups.com >
Subject: Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement

 



Cathy Reason wrote:


Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal wrote:

I am not sure but if it is a destructive/demolition type of measurement, then entanglement is not preserved because there is nothing to entangle with. Perhaps, Kashyap can tell us better.


Superpositions persist indefinitely under unitary evolution.  To destroy the entanglement in this way, you have to destroy the superposition, and that requires some form of measurement postulate.

I guess I should add that this is the theoretician's way of looking at it.  An experimentalist could quite reasonably say that the entanglement has collapsed because it is no longer detectable.

Cathy


Cathy

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John Jay Kineman

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May 22, 2019, 8:28:36 PM5/22/19
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Ram, Responses below:

John

On May 22, 2019, at 12:44 PM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thanks, John.


I have the following queries:

 

Q1. Why do you consider qualia (np) of red ball non-local and its NCC (p) local in space-time? To me, both are localized in space-time.

(p) is defined as having position or space-time distribution. Qualia have no such definition. The experiential self, I, knows the qualia but the self does not have a measurable location. People may identify with a position behind the eyes, or with the heart, or with a family or tribe. I know of nonway to measure the position or time of the self, and thus experiences of the self. In fact, to know the position of a physical event requires an external measurement process and reference point. One could assert that the qualia acquires the same position as the physical correlate, but that is a circular argument that cant be used to prove that the qualia has 1:1 correspondence since that claim is then made on the basis of 1:1 correspondence for position.

Q2. Do you mean the category error between np and p occurs only in the efficient cause because it implies interaction, not in other causes?

Yes, categories are defined by causal entailments. In (p) it is an efficient cause of material state transition (or some say efficient law governing re-abstraction from superposition). But however interpreted it is a 1:1 association of cause and effect. In (np) it is the same idea but a different causality, inverse to the causality of (p). It is a final-formal causal entailment. The two logical catagories are immiscible. you cant map elements in (p) to elements in (np), nor can the morphisms (laws) apy to elements of the other category. F=ma applies to (p) as we know. We cant apply it to (np) as a law, say, about political force, except as an analogy. To claim that it rigoroulsy applies would be a category error.  However, there is a relational mapping that is like an analogy. It maps the full entailment 'structure' between categories. so the linearity of the mapping of f=ma can be related to a similar linear mapping in (np) by a "structure preserving functor". That is an encoding/decoding operation where the laws in each category are induced to do compatible operations, like your arm moving in the mirror. But such information rations are open to contextual influences, say a curved mirror that makes you look fat or slim. In Rosens work he claimed that no 1:1 Functor mapping (which is mathematicay a mechanism) can exist in nature, but of course highly interactive systems can reduce to near mechanism above the planck limit.

My understanding is that for a relationship between A and B, both need to interact.

So the above is arguing that there is a difference between interaction, which is defined as efficient 1:1, and relation (functor) which is complex and could be said to have superpositional alternatives, i.e. contextual influences. A pearl formed in an Oyster is different from those created in the laboratory because of the context in which the model of the sand (np) is being functionally expressed to invoke the efficient processes (p) of making the pearl.



Q3. Your definition of “state” seems different from mine; so what is your definition of the word “state”? My definition is the same what QM has, i.e., for example, an electron can be in the ground state or excited state; wavefunction is a quantum state.

Yes, it has to be clarified because QM tends not to distinguish (p) and (np) 'states'. (np) is not treated as a different formal category but is pseudo-efficient by formalizing it as a potential set of possible states instead of attempting to say what it is as a non-state unity before a state is defined. Probability is also a
pseudo (np) formalization being based on statistics of states after they are measured, not what they are mathematically before measurement. A lot of debate could take place on the legitimacy of that deeper alternative, but that is precisely what rational theory attempts to do.



Cheers!

Likewise. Im not saying the eDAM formalization is wrong but that it  is an approximation that has mechanistic aspects if one holds too firmly to the 1:1 inseparability concept. In fact
that 1:1 proposition does create a category erroe in my opinion, either that or it is a tautologynas described above. But for many purposes it may not be a problem. Im
onlynsaying it cant
be a general solution without introducing a functor explanation of the apparent 1:1 inseparability, which I do not dispute on the surface.

Kind regards,

Rām


Kindd regards, John

Whit Blauvelt

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May 23, 2019, 10:01:42 AM5/23/19
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On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:22:29AM +0000, John Jay Kineman wrote:

> (p) is defined as having position or space-time distribution. Qualia have no
> such definition. The experiential self, I, knows the qualia but the self does
> not have a measurable location.

Hi John,

I disagree. We are positioned in regards to our origins and our ends. Our
positions, as human selves, are precisely at the crossroads between our
pasts and our possible futures, particularly as we perceive the paths to
those futures, which always must, in practical terms, start where we
actually are, whether coincident with our bodies, or even in temporary
projection from them, whether astral or imaginative.

The self knows oneself to be here.

Best,
Whit

John Jay Kineman

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May 24, 2019, 12:51:16 PM5/24/19
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Hi Whit, Its a very interesting point and I dont disagree with it. Yet I suppose the question of physical locality is a matter of categorical difference where the physical category is defined along dimensions of space and time and is thus in a local existence category. Here and Now are dimensionless singularities in the physical definition of space and time, not even figuring into empirical data. Thus I would argue that Here and Now are actually in the (np) category, precisely what the physical, perceptual category is missing. The only accessible information relation about here and now is (np) awareness, all else being historical or projective as physical, is it not? 

John
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Jesse Bettinger

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May 26, 2019, 6:24:38 PM5/26/19
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Hi, i just jumped into this thread, but perhaps you would consider the following prompt from Ram: 

Q1. Why do you consider qualia (np) of red ball non-local and its NCC (p) local in space-time? To me, both are localized in space-time.


as such (or, in this way): 

From an experiential perspective, the qualia [of a red ball] is non-local to the extent that it contributes to the momentary characterization of components constituting a circuit, or network connectivity attractor signature. 

As such it is one element comprising a larger anatomical circuit. This would be like the "wave-nature" of an experience. As such, the component could be considered non-localized in the same way you might think of an electron as non-localized in a wave-packet. 

Whereas (or however), you could also do the 'harder work' of trying to localize the experience of the red ball within the larger circuit/connectivity profile--though this generally implies confounding for all the other things that would constitute the make-up of that experiential moment (aka, sterilizing the moment to narrow in on one aspect). 

This would constitute the NCC or particle-like nature of the experience. In terms of cross-frequency correlations, the NCC tends to correspond to the higher-frequency localization of differential cellular activity linked to the target phenomenon, as opposed to the lower-frequency, definition (or structure of the) multi-stable attractor network and corresponding circuit anatomy. 

Food for thought.. 

PS: I'm still on the market 😉 !! (and actively looking for post-doc or teaching opportunities)

Jesse
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 9:17 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement
 

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
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Jesse Bettinger

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May 26, 2019, 8:26:53 PM5/26/19
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ps: i realize this is poorly stated (even if just a metaphor, i should have said "de-localized; and further, the concept of physical non-locality would be restructured to consider in terms of CFC). Also, i realize that a qualified neuroscience and computational explanations are largely missing (for instance, in terms of information integration; superadditive dynamics, etc.), but perhaps the general idea can still be surmised from this. 

I'm just trying to say you might try switching the guiding metaphor...

(Feel free to laugh off all of this, as well as my shameless plug for a, let's face it, nearly impossible goal of attaining a post-doc.)

Humbly more,

Jesse   
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jesse Bettinger <jess...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 2:02 PM

NYIKOS, PETER

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May 27, 2019, 8:48:31 PM5/27/19
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John, you write:

The experiential self, I, knows the qualia but the self does not have a measurable location. People may identify with a position behind the eyes, or with the heart, or with a family or tribe.

You are going too far afield with this remark.  There is no way I would identify my Self with my family; they are distinct Selves like I am, and it would be madness to claim, except as a figure of speech, that my wife's Self is my Self. The topic after all, is my Self as the subject of qualia, which are perceived by me as objects, not subjects. I wish I could experience my wife fully as the subject that she is, but we are separate  Selves whose alienation [in the technical existentialist sense of the term] cannot be totally overcome.

While I usually think of my Self as being positioned behind my eyes, that is partly because sight is the Queen of the Senses, so to speak. When I feel a pain in my big toe, it seems to be located there. If the pain distracts me from everything around me and every other sensation in my body, one might say that, for that short time, I am located in my big toe.

But, since I have never had an out of the body experience, my Self seems to be confined to my body. Bill Clinton's famous saying, "I feel your pain" must remain a metaphor for me. That does not mean I cannot deeply empathize with others; in fact, sometimes I may over-empathize, as when one of my daughters starts crying and I feel sorrier for her than she may feel sorry for herself.

The rest of your reply to the first question is a masterpiece. I wish I had the time to talk about the rest today. I'd like to just point out an interesting coincidence in the choice of notation (p) and (np).

The famous P vs NP problem has to do with P representing problems whose solution is obtainable "in polynomial time" while NP describes problems for which any alleged solution can be checked "in polynomial time" to see whether the alleged solution is correct. Whether P = NP  is perhaps the most important unsolved problem in applicable mathematics. It might be possible, in some clever way, to make an analogy between this and your uses of (p) and (np), but I don't see how.


Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics      
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu

Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 8:22 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Neo-naturalism and spatio-temporal surprises and entanglement
 

Whit Blauvelt

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May 28, 2019, 11:48:05 AM5/28/19
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On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 01:55:48PM +0000, NYIKOS, PETER wrote:
> John, you write:
>
> The experiential self, I, knows the qualia but the self does not have a
> measurable location. People may identify with a position behind the eyes, or
> with the heart, or with a family or tribe.
>
> You are going too far afield with this remark. There is no way I would
> identify my Self with my family; they are distinct Selves like I am, and it
> would be madness to claim, except as a figure of speech, that my wife's Self is
> my Self. The topic after all, is my Self as the subject of qualia, which are
> perceived by me as objects, not subjects. I wish I could experience my wife
> fully as the subject that she is, but we are separate Selves whose alienation
> [in the technical existentialist sense of the term] cannot be totally overcome.
>
> While I usually think of my Self as being positioned behind my eyes, that is
> partly because sight is the Queen of the Senses, so to speak. When I feel a
> pain in my big toe, it seems to be located there. If the pain distracts me from
> everything around me and every other sensation in my body, one might say that,
> for that short time, I am located in my big toe.

Is "self" for the purpose of current discussion the center or the periphery?
Many meditators can move the central focus to anywhere within the body. I'd
even suggest doing so changes the focus of mentation and feeling in other
ways. There's a reason being gut-focused or heart-focused or head-focused or
genital-focused are associated with different modes and personality types.

Moving the center beyond the skin is less common; yet it's said the blind
typically extend it to the end of their canes.

There is a claim that East Asian societies have, on average, less "inner
self" and more "group self." I'm not in a position to evaluate that one.

Best,
Whit

John Jay Kineman

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May 28, 2019, 5:51:28 PM5/28/19
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Scientific Basis of Consciousness
Hi Whit,

The first paragraph is mine, but I don’t know where the 2nd and 3rd paragraph come from. In any case, my response to both comments is that perhaps it is a stretched metaphor on my part, although Yogi’s claim to experience an altered self and Shamans identify with the self of animals, etc. — still that is not my point. My point is the concept of Self refers to identity of a system that has both physical and non-physical aspects, i.e., local and non-local aspects. It transcends both location and qualia and thus does not have its own coordinates in either category, because it is what connects the categories. That should have been my point.

This is speaking to the discussion between myself and Ram about 1:1 correspondence between elements of P and NP, which I claim cannot exist absolutely, only as a reduction of a complex information relation between P and NP categorical entailments. In this I am saying that P and NP are different logical categories and so any 1:1 correspondence must be conditional and perhaps ephemeral. It would be a category error to assert 1:1 correspondence between P and NP “states”. There can only be relations between efficient and final entailments of states in corresponding categories. In this category language we should also be clear that “interaction” refers by convention to efficient cause of material state transitions in P, whereas in NP the entailment is between final and formal causes, which we can associate with inference or the inverse of efficient causality. Because the logic of these two categories is inverse, they link in a cycle of causes, such that you can’t have, for example, final cause of a state without going through both categories of entailment. There is no 1:1 connection between the states in P and NP, except by involving the formal context in NP and efficient production of states in P. Thus, the dual aspect unity must be viewed as a modeling relation or cyclical causality for a general theory, although its reduced state as a correspondence principle, which defines it as a mechanism, may indeed be observed and may be persistent depending on conditions within that interval of correspondence that is mentioned in eDAM. My argument is that despite being able to treat it as a mechanical correspondence, which is up to the neurophysiologists to decide if that will be sufficient for what is being studied, it is not fundamentally mechanical and only occurs so as a result of governing conditions. I think Ram has also said it is conditional and restricted to an interval of existence, so aside from perhaps some ontological discussion, and details of modeling relations and category theory that may go beyond the intended theory, we should be in agreement.

Bottom line: I think the complex relation between P and NP is the best candidate for the seat of consciousness, as it is for conceptualizing the “self”, because that relation is what defines a mathematical “identity” transcending both categories, and yet existing in both categories at contextual/informational levels - perhaps a 3rd aspect. It is thus a good analogy to what we experience as identity. In that case self is what connects local and non-local, physical and non-physical.

John
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John Jay Kineman

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May 31, 2019, 5:45:54 PM5/31/19
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
hi Nyikos,   the ease or difficulty if shifting identity was not really my point. I was saying that for such things to be at all possible at any level and also as otherwise exoerienced in sleep etc. the sense of identity is not a soacetime object, it exists outeside soacetimme coordinates but in relation to a spacetime physical system. Justbasbwe wouldnt normally identify with our hair or fingernails, our identity has no position in the material world, it exists in its own domain even while being informationally related to a physical thing with location. So my point is that self is neither local nor nonlocal, it is probably what relates the two.

John

Adam Moroz

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Jul 7, 2021, 3:41:50 AM7/7/21
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

Dear Colleague,

 

Hope you are keeping well and safe.

Few years ago we have communicated by few emails on some issues.

 

Recently I have developed few presentations on the role of extrema character of processes and the role of cooperativity/collectivity in bioevolution, which might be can be interesting for you.

Please see some my presentations on the YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjmoF3TamYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHcIWIqgHKo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIpkdgdMORw

 

Anyway, many thanks for some interest in the past.

 

With late apologies and kind regards

 

Adam Moroz

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