Re: [jcs-online] Re: A Short Paper Explaining Everything

[Serge Patlavskiy]

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Alfredo Pereira Jr. <alfredo...@gmail.com> on Nov 18, 2017 wrote:

>The judgment about being conscious or not is theory-laden.

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[S.P.] For me, it is the explanation to the mechanisms of consciousness that can be said to be a theory-laden. I mean that while constructing a theory, the theorist uses such terms and concepts as is convenient for him. For example, such concepts as "consciousness", "mind", "information", "awareness", etc. are theory-laden. Why? It is because in the field of consciousness studies (unlike, say, in Physics) the comprehensive paradigm is not established yet. Only after having investigated for compatibility the different working theories of consciousness constructed by different authors we may get a chance to come to comprehensive conceptual framework someday.

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Second. Do you mean here the third-person judgments about somebody's being possessing consciousness or not, or, maybe, you mean the first-person judgments? For example, my (or, first-person) judgments whether I possess consciousness are not theory-laden. Why? It is because I do possess consciousness in any circumstances, or irrespectively of a theory I construct.

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[Alfredo Pereira Jr.] wrote:

> In my model, the existence of hydro-ionic waves (as described in the

> paper below) is the sign of conscious activity.

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[S.P.] First. Do you make a difference between brain activity and cognitive activity (or the activity of consciousness)? So, which activity -- brain's or that of consciousness -- that the existence of hydro-ionic waves is the sign of?

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Second. My "theory-laden" approach presumes that consciousness can function in its sub-conscious regime, normal everyday regime, and ultra-conscious regime. The sub-conscious regime is mainly for keeping under control all the physiological processes in the organism; the normal everyday regime is mainly for producing thoughts based on logic and common sense; the ultra-conscious regime is mainly for the activity which pertains to intuition, telepathy, premonition, clairvoyance, telekinesis, OBE, NDE, and so on. 

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Question: do you make a difference between various regimes of functioning of consciousness? If yes, then which regime of the activity of consciousness do you bear in mind in particular when stating that the existence of hydro-ionic waves signifies such an activity? 

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However, if you make no difference between brain activity and the activity of consciousness, and, if you make no difference between various regimes of functioning of consciousness, then your statement (cited above) is of the same "importance" as a statement that the existence of iPhones is the sign of the activity of Apple Corporation. :-) The irony is that, here, just being a "sign", tells us nothing concrete about the mechanisms of functioning of the iPhone -- nothing about its hardware or software. 

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Therefore, it is still not clear for me which role the hydro-ionic waves play in your version of the theory of consciousness, namely, in which way these waves help you to explain how organism's dealing with the physical (sensory) signals results in its subjective experience and gaining new knowledge.

.

Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> on Nov 17, 2017 wrote:

> What are the requirements for something to be a conscious system?

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[S.P.] In fact, there is nothing like "conscious system". Personally, I consider the living organism as a complex self-organizing and consciousness-possessing system. By definition, every complex system (as a model which I use to formalize my objects of study) depends simultaneously on the activity of three equally and mutually fundamental factors: informational, material, and energetic. So, according to my approach, a purely "conscious system" (as well as purely "material system", or purely "energetic system") is not possible while considering alive organisms.

.

At any rate, for some system to possess consciousness means that this system is able to reduce its overall entropic state also due to dealing with physical (sensory) signals and, thereby, gaining an adequate model of the outer world.

.

Kindly,

Serge Patlavskiy

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From: BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>
To: Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Cc: Serge Patlavskiy <serge.pa...@rocketmail.com>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Jay Keiser <jaykei...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [jcs-online] Re: A Short Paper Explaining Everything

Dear Joe:

The judgment about being conscious or not is theory-laden. In my model, the existence of hydro-ionic waves (as described in the paper below) is the sign of conscious activity.
These waves can be found in plants and all multicellular animals.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312938888_Astroglial_hydro-ionic_waves_guided_by_the_extracellular_matrix_An_exploratory_model

Alfredo

2017-11-17 19:08 GMT-02:00 Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>:

Alfredo,

You can find a preliminary draft of the related JCS paper to appear in 2018 (according to JCS rules, the final version cannot be posted) at:
https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/319632327_Conscious ness_and_Cosmos_Building_an_ Ontological_Framework Best Regards, Alfredo

"a) In our conscious experiences there are many systems within manifest reality (i.e. the 'actual') that appear to lack conscious experience"

How do you know what is not conscious? If it "appears" not conscious, it sounds like you may be hedging, lacking certain critical information that would allow you to say something is actually not conscious. What information would you need to confirm your opinion? 

I remember from Biology class that in order to say something is a living organism, it needs to possess some qualities: They are made from structures called "cells." They reproduce by genetic material called "DNA." They respond to stimuli from the environment. They synthesize an energy substance called "adenosine triphosphate (ATP)" from the environment, and they live and grow using that energy.

What are the requirements for something to be a conscious system?

[Paul Werbos]

Hardware to replicate waves in robots?

We know by now that electromagnetic waves are NOT mediators of soul, any more than currents of air or poltergeist effects as a side effect of PK. 

No one is working on machinery (or DNA) to replicate waves of dark energy or such, because we don't know enough about what they are or how they work physically. 

That ignorance may actually be a good thing. As I hear about the disastrous things being planned for simple internet in China (Great Firewall) and US (general chaos as alternative to net neutrality), I see good reason to shift more energy to less risky technologies, even though I find that somewhat painful personally. There are lots of things we need to UNDERSTAND better, mathematically and physically, but  which carry huge risk if translated into quick buck technology (like today's plans for brain-computer interface and self-driving cars). The problem is compounded by the lack of good institutions to address what I would call "correlated risk," things which seem like minimal nothing... until a transition where it is suddenly too late.

Relations between DNA and paranormal effects seem quite important, but again, when political folks get their hands on any DNA issues, they tend to fall into hamhanded crude behavior which causes more harm that good, in part because they don't understand the full importance of variance and diversity. 

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:

Alfredo,

Better get to work on it then. 😂

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:05 PM, BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com> wrote:

To replicate the wave in robots, they will need a different kind of hardware!

Alfredo

2017-11-24 18:59 GMT-02:00 Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>:

Vinod,

You wrote: Does Joe establishes his self-consciousness thru scientific instruments, testing, and detection OR by his own subjective experience?

Joe wrote: I don't know what things are like where you live, but have you ever seen the movie "Blade Runner"? I mean its not a problem now, but it could easily become one in the near future. So, fortunately Alfredo has a test to determine consciousness.  Of course, the AI people might be able to replicate the waves Alfredo talks about, even replicate consciousness in robots that look human, replicants.  So, we might need better tests. 

joe

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 6:44 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joe writes:

"Better scientific instruments, testing and detection, will expand his conception of consciousness. I feel it"

Does Joe establishes his self-consciousness thru scientific instruments, testing, and detection OR by his own subjective experience?

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:

Alfredo,

Vinod (below) tells it like I see it. 😀 Alfredo is, as he says, being general. He is ambiguous enough for me to give my Imprimatur.😀  Better scientific instruments, testing and detection, will expand his conception of consciousness. I feel it. 😂

joe

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 9:33 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Self consciousness having self cognitive capabilities is one advanced element  of consciousness. Other elements of consciousness  are awareness and reactions to environment, free will, I-ness, Most of the animals and plants lack self consciousness but they are have the awareness of the environment, though in  quite rudimentary forms, therefore, display reaction to environment also. Therefore, all the animals including insects are conscious one.

Vinod Sehgal

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:

 Alfredo,

Descartes assumed "thinking of thinking" as the mark of consciousness, but this view is too restrictive.

So, all you have to do is remove the restrictions you created. The rock has a primitive form of mirror test. It sends out presently undetected emanations that return to the rock and inform it as to the nature of its environment. 

I hope it helps philosophers to move away from the Cartesian view and assume a broader view of conscious activity that includes not only animals, but also plants, AND ROCKS, AND SUB_ATOMIC PARTICLES. 😂

Yesterday and today there is a meeting at NYU on "Animal Consciousness".

I wish you had told me earlier. I was in Manhattan then. 😀

Self-Consciousness requires some cognitive capabilities that most living systems do not have.

true.

 For instance, plants are probably conscious, but their conscious activity is limited to sentience. Insects, besides being sentient, also have cognitive and social capabilities, but do not display signs of Self-Consciousness. 

See. You do recognize different kinds of consciousness. 

Self-Consciousness requires the conceptual capabilities (including the linguistic ones) of conceiving the Self as distinct of the (rest of the) body and environment. 

As I have argued many times, self-consciousness cannot separate itself from Consciousness of Self. It can only APPEAR so. "Conceiving" being the critical issue here. 

The "Mirror Test" is a good test of Self-Recognition, but this recognition is limited to the body - in fact, it is Body-Recognition. Small fishes do not pass the Mirror Test

But small fish are conscious. You just need a different test. The mirror test won't work on vampires, the patient on the operating table, or in a coma, or in one who is uncooperative...

joe 

[Dr Uma Banerjee]

Dear Paul,

I agree with your view.

Uma

Sent from my iPad

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