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Pat

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Aug 27, 2008, 7:26:53 PM8/27/08

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On 27 Aug, 22:40, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks! I see that you have also expanded on some of my thoughts with
> the aspect on limitation by rational interpretation. The only thing
> about the quantum travel in dreams theory that I have trouble with is
> the factor of life on other planets, or the lack of evidence of so
> far. Obviously if I am dreaming and there are people around I can
> only assume at this point that if I am somewhere else it would have to
> within the confines of this planet. Granted, it could be anywhere on
> the planet but so far not on another planet. If I were in the next
> galaxy, let's say Proxima Centauri as archytas brought up, there is
> still no evidence that there is any form of life there and if there
> was I would doubt that they spoke English. Of course no one could
> discount the probability more than 99.9%. Still the idea of a
> parallel universe with 99% similarity remains a strong possibility.
>

I think it's more likely that dreaming takes place on a parallel
plane of existence rather than a dream-disjoined aspect of physical
reality. That would explain the language similarities and the
existence of people who are 'similar' to those you know but not
exactly the same. For example, when I dream of my parents, they don't
seem to age in the dreamscape and houses, although they are familiar
and 'supposed to be' certain specific houses, often have different
floor plans than their corresponding selves in real life. Yet, those
floor plans are consistent in that new rooms don't appear in
subsequent dreams. And, if I put a wallet into a drawer in dream A,
if I revisit that drawer in dream B, the wallet will be exactly where
I left it. In MY dreamscape, everything is slightly different than in
reality, but completely internally consistent. To me, that smacks of
being parallel rather than just elsewhere in physical reality. but,
of course, I can only go on my own dreams. I'd still love to get a
bunch of lucid dreamers together that were all familiar with the same
Earth-bound geography in order to test internal consistency across
dreamscapes to find out if dreamer A could leave a message for dreamer
B to find. If that could ever be demonstrated repeatedly, we'd have
very strong evidence of a parallel plane of existence.

> > > closed; the whole environment is, so to speak, wrapped in it; it is- Hide quoted text -
>
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archytas

Aug 29, 2008, 1:29:22 AM8/29/08

to "Minds Eye"

This is slightly off topic, but I think related.

When I was a much younger man I played around with many different
substances. One night I lay down to look at the stars and found myself
moving with increasing speed toward them, I came through what seemed
to be a curtain of ice crystals and found myself in a world with naked
(though not sexually) attractive blue beings with a single blue antler
type thing on their heads that were sort of pointed. They seemed to be
female and were singing in an Indian style (reminiscent of George
Harrison's "Within you, without you" from Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts
Club Band)

Was I merely hallucinating, or had the substances driven "me" from my
body?

On another occassion I remember rising from my body and slowly
rotating over and looking down on the static bodies of my unconscious
companions and my self.

Steve

Molly Brogan

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Aug 29, 2008, 7:59:25 AM8/29/08

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Sounds to me like an invitation to realize that you and that someone
are the same. The path disappears when transversing uncharted
awareness. The hole that you look through is the pivotal point for
shifting your view. I think that it is wonderful that the snake (the
biblical symbol for dualistic thinking) was escorting you, and that
you began to look for it as a part of the journey. You are looking
for you - that expanded you down the rabbit hole, Alice. You have a
wonderful way of tapping into the soul of humanity when exploring your
own in your dreams, Slip. Bravo.

> ...
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Sep 1, 2008, 6:15:55 AM9/1/08

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Gee Molly, I couldn't stop thinking about your sentence- "In this

way you recover parts of yourself - like a puzzle that completes

itself as you live life with heart and soul." - I had to do some
digging but finally found one of the poems I wrote several years ago.
It's titled pieces of my dream.

Pieces Of My Dream

Sometimes I feel like a jigsaw puzzle
When the picture is not yet clear
When I am all in pieces
Spread out
Not sorted
Just a smear
Searching for a union of a piece at a time
But feeling that the picture will never be mine
Bits and pieces sometimes make it seem
That there may be a picture there
The picture of my dreams
Thousands of choices to choose from
Picking from here and there
Always wondering if this is the one
Most often ending in despair
Turning and spinning desperately to make a fit
Disappointed again and tiring a bit
I try to be persistent
Give it another try
Sometimes getting closer
But much time has gone by
Will I ever see the picture before I get old
Will I still be dreaming when I die and turn cold
It is just a puzzle
This dream of mine
But I'll keep trying
One piece at a time.

I did manage to enter it into some poetic contest and it was published
in some poetry book but I never did get to buy one or see it. Hope
you enjoyed it and see how it connects with what you are saying.

On Aug 30, 10:00 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>

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Molly Brogan

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Sep 1, 2008, 8:32:26 AM9/1/08

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Sep 3, 2008, 4:51:08 PM9/3/08

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frantheman

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Sep 7, 2008, 5:54:55 AM9/7/08

to "Minds Eye"

Its funny, I've been following this thread and was generally thinking,
"here goes Molly again, with her New Age stuff; dreams, and reversing
cause and effect ..." For someone like me, whose general position is
sceptical, scientific-method, agnostic/atheist, this stuff is not
really my flavour of the month. But I continued mulling it over, and,
I guess there's always that other side of me there, which believes in
imagination and loves beauty and does not accept that what is is what
has to be. It's been striking me that, actually, Molly may be onto
something very important here.

The problem is, of course, as Molly points out, that the law of
Attraction stuff is presented as a quick-fix, an idea which attracts
the "gimme" element in us (the very effective basis of consumerism), a
way to get the things we want, or, perhaps better, the things we think
we want. Let's go back to the Cancun example. When we see that
billboard with Cancun, what does it awaken in us? Is it a concrete
desire to spend a couple of weeks in Cancun, which, by submitting
ourselves in some way to the "Law of Attraction", will somehow be
fulfilled for us? Sure, we can make that happen. It might even be as
banal as some elements of the mythology of the American Dream working
here; "if you really want it bad enough, if you concentrate on it,
apply your energy to it, work for it, BELIEVE it, then you'll get it,"
the kind of Hollywoodesque interview stuff, "Well, Oprah/Larry/et al.,
you see, I always believed I could be a star and get to Cancun, and
now I'd like to thank all my fans for believing with me ..." Of
course, many other things may have been sacrificed to realise the
dream, but that won't be referred to.

But what is it that that billboard really evokes in us? Maybe more a
desire for that feeling that a good holiday can give us, free of
commitments, of the nuisance of the everyday, those moments of perfect
relaxation, of feeling completely balanced. I've never been to Cancun,
but I can think of other images; a dusty roadside café baking in the
hot Turkish sun, the warm, silent beauty of a sunrise in Barbados, a
midnight sunset/rise in northern Norway, a rainy afternoon with a
comfortable armchair, a warm fire and a good book in the west of
Ireland. And the people I was with and that feeling of perfection ...
ah, holiday!

Except, of course, that I can have that now, because the capability to
be in that state is always within me. If I am centred in my own
middle, at that point where - if you like - being and becoming, acting
and resting, dream and reality are one.

Or, as Mick and Keith put it (and Orn and I have both quoted here
before), "you can't always get what you want, but, if you try
sometime, you might get what you need." :-)

Have a nice Sunday,

Francis

On 6 Sep., 19:51, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

> > > > > On Sep 5,- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
>
> - Zitierten Text anzeigen -...
>
> Erfahren Sie mehr »

archytas

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Sep 7, 2008, 6:32:15 AM9/7/08

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I'm probably more like this Francis than Francis. I don't take an
attitude of 'tolerance' to Molly or Orn (and others). This would be
chronically patronising. I am, in part, a believer. There is nothing
worse than a form of 'dispassion' that is a masquerade of the
scientific or bureaucratic Holy - except perhaps that form of
scepticism that leads one to think one knows experience when it is
others doing the hard work in it. There is a lot of potential in
viewing oneself as a tyro - just an innocent trier. Yet lurking
around is knowledge of true experience with conmen and religious
corruption.

> > > > With both dreaming and awakened imagination, the- Hide quoted text -

Molly Brogan

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Sep 7, 2008, 8:22:41 AM9/7/08

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The Pre/Trans Fallacy

quoted from SEX, ECOLOGY, SPIRITUALITY by Ken Wilber.
© 1995, 2000 by Ken Wilber. By arrangement with
Shambhala Publications, Inc., Boston, www.shambhala.com

Ever since I began writing on the distinctions between prerational (or
prepersonal) states of awareness and transrational (or transpersonal)
states - what I called the pre/trans fallacy - I have become more
convinced than ever that this understanding is absolutely crucial for
grasping the nature of higher (or deeper) or truly spiritual states of
consciousness.

The essence of the pre/trans fallacy is itself fairly simple: since
both prerational states and transrational states are, in their own
ways, nonrational, they appear similar or even identical to the
untutored eye. And once pre and trans are confused, then one of two
fallacies occurs:

In the first, all higher and transrational states are reduced to lower
and prerational states. Genuine mystical or contemplative experiences,
for example, are seen as a regression or throwback to infantile states
of narcissism, oceanic adualism, indissociation, and even primitive
autism. This is, for example, precisely the route taken by Freud in
The Future of an Illusion.

In these reductionistic accounts, rationality is the great and final
omega point of individual and collective development, the high-water
mark of all evolution. No deeper or wider or higher context is thought
to exist. Thus, life is to be lived either rationally, or neurotically
(Freud's concept of neurosis is basically anything that derails the
emergence of rational perception - true enough as far as it goes,
which is just not all that far). Since no higher context is thought to
be real, or to actually exist, then whenever any genuinely
transrational occasion occurs, it is immediately explained as a
regression to prerational structures (since they are the only
nonrational structures allowed, and thus the only ones to accept an
explanatory hypothesis). The superconscious is reduced to the
subconscious, the transpersonal is collapsed to the prepersonal, the
emergence of the higher is reinterpreted as an irruption from the
lower. All breathe a sigh of relief, and the rational worldspace is
not fundamentally shaken (by "the black tide of the mud of occultism!"
as Freud so quaintly explained it to Jung).

On the other hand, if one is sympathetic with higher or mystical
states, but one still confuses pre and trans, then one will elevate
all prerational states to some sort of transrational glory (the
infantile primary narcissism, for example, is seen as an unconscious
slumbering in the mystico unio). Jung and his followers, of course,
often take this route, and are forced to read a deeply transpersonal
and spiritual status into states that are merely indissociated and
undifferentiated and actually lacking any sort of integration at all.

In the elevationist position, the transpersonal and transrational
mystical union is seen as the ultimate omega point, and since egoic-
rationality does indeed tend to deny this higher state, then egoic-
rationality is pictured as the low point of human possibilities, as a
debasement, as the cause of sin and separation and alienation. When
rationality is seen as the anti-omega point, so to speak, as the great
Anti-Christ, then anything nonrational gets swept up and
indiscriminately glorified as a direct route to the Divine, including
much that is infantile and regressive and prerational: anything to get
rid of that nasty and skeptical rationality. "I believe because it is
absurd" (Tertullian) - there is the battle cry of the elevationist (a
strand that runs deeply through Romanticism of any sort).

Freud was a reductionist, Jung an elevationist - the two sides of the
pre/trans fallacy. And the point is that they are both half right and
half wrong. A good deal of neurosis is indeed a fixation/regression to
prerational states, states that are not to be glorified. On the other
hand, mystical states do indeed exist, beyond (not beneath)
rationality, and those states are not to be reduced.

For most of the recent modern era, and certainly since Freud (and Marx
and Ludwig Feuerbach), the reductionist stance toward spirituality has
prevailed - all spiritual experiences, no matter how highly developed
they might in fact be, were simply interpreted as regressions to
primitive and infantile modes of thought. However, as if in
overreaction to all that, we are now, and have been since the sixties,
in the throes of various forms of elevationism (exemplified by, but by
no means confined to, the New Age movement). All sorts of endeavors,
of no matter what origin or of what authenticity, are simply elevated
to transrational and spiritual glory, and the only qualification for
this wonderful promotion is that the endeavor be nonrational. Anything
rational is wrong; anything nonrational is spiritual.

Spirit is indeed nonrational; but it is trans, not pre. It transcends
but includes reason; it does not regress and exclude it. Reason, like
any particular stage of evolution, has its own (and often devastating)
limitations, repressions, and distortions. But as we have seen, the
inherent problems of one level are solved (or "defused") only at the
next level of development; they are not solved by regressing to a
previous level where the problem can be merely ignored. And so it is
with the wonders and the terrors of reason: it brings enormous new
capacities and new solutions, while introducing its own specific
problems, problems solved only by a transcendence to the higher and
transrational realms.

Many of the elevationist movements, alas, are not beyond reason but
beneath it. They think they are, and they announce themselves to be,
climbing the Mountain of Truth; whereas, it seems to me, they have
merely slipped and fallen and are sliding rapidly down it, and the
exhilarating rush of skidding uncontrollably down evolution's slope
they call "following your bliss." As the earth comes rushing up at
them at terminal velocity, they are bold enough to offer this
collision course with ground zero as a new paradigm for the coming
world transformation, and they feel oh-so-sorry for those who watch
their coming crash with the same fascination as one watches a twenty-
car pileup on the highway, and they sadly nod as we decline to join in
that particular adventure. True spiritual bliss, in infinite measure,
lies up that hill, not down it.

[Note: A more detailed description of the pre/trans fallacy can be
found in Eye to Eye.]

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Molly Brogan

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Sep 7, 2008, 11:33:19 AM9/7/08

to "Minds Eye"

"Except, of course, that I can have that now, because the capability
to
be in that state is always within me. If I am centred in my own
middle, at that point where - if you like - being and becoming, acting
and resting, dream and reality are one."

Now we're cookin! Happy Sunday to you too, Francis.

> ...
>
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Slip Disc

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Sep 7, 2008, 8:48:14 PM9/7/08

to "Minds Eye"

I would think, that state of being is within everyone to some degree,
the big word "IF" one is centered within one's self. I can attest to
the fact that when I have turmoil in my life I am useless. When peace
reigns, my inner self speaks volumes, my artistic self creates and my
dreams become alive.
I had a strange dream last night. It was very lucid but I never saw
myself and had no way of knowing whether it was really me or just me
entering the mind of someone somewhere else. I'm always confused by
this type of dream as I don't know if there is any substance there to
pay attention to. All the other people in the dream kept approaching
me and telling me things as if I was their best friend. Everyone in
the dream recognized me but I did not recognized anyone or anything in
the dream. Every single aspect of the dream was foreign and there was
nothing pleasurable about it and partly disturbing in retrospective
evaluation. I know that it was not some manifestation of my
subconscious because I have never been exposed to such earthly
environs. It is this type of dream that leads me to believe that
sometimes we tap into the zero point field, which inspired this
thread. The separation for me is that sometimes, through quantum dream
travel, we either become physically part of another world or we become
mentally part of someone's world a world away. Then again I must
address the time issue, perhaps the dream I had was either in the past
or in the future but the essence of the dream exists out there
somewhere waiting for someone to tune in to it, as a television tunes
into one of the thousands of airwaves floating around in space.
Perhaps others had experienced the same exact dream I had and further
perhaps experienced it at the same exact time or at different times.
Could someone in another part of the world have experienced the same
exact dream? I would say it is highly probable.
Dreams are a very powerful aspect of human life. Dreams present a
alter level of life in which existence may be a parallel reality. It
may only be in death that we discover the real meaning of life.
Row row row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily
merrily, life is but a dream.
Yes it is, isn't it?

On Sep 7, 10:33 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>

Charlie43

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Sep 6, 2008, 6:22:50 PM9/6/08

to "Minds Eye"

If you are familiar with the Seth books, a very good explanation of
dreams and travel are discussed there. I refer to "Seth Speaks" by
Jane Roberts. Check it out if this is something you might wish to
expand upon.

Peace,

Charlie~

On Aug 25, 11:38 pm, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are we experiencing quantum travel in our dreams?
>
> Sometimes I wonder, when I dream and it feels as if I am physically in
> another place if that dream is a manifestation of my subconscious mind
> or if I am experiencing a consciousness in a parallel universe or
> within another dimension of our own universe. Recently astronomers
> found a smaller version of our own solar system 5,000 light-years
> across the galaxy, this is the first planetary system that really
> looks like our own, with outer giant planets and room for smaller
> inner planets. Of course it is beyond our reach physically but what
> about our capacity to subconsciously travel through the hypothetical
> mesh of energy in quantum physics. These energy formulations present
> travel that exponentially exceeds the speed of light. Therefore, I
> would hypothesize that the subconscious mind in the dream state
> possibly enters the zero-point field, traveling to another part of our
> universe, solar system or the next solar system. Possibly my dream
> could be taking place on the other side of the planet or the other
> side of the universe. Perhaps Krypton even (Pat, don't go there) {;-]
>
> I find some degree of correlation with dreams and the concept of time
> travel which according to wikipedia is defined as the concept of
> moving between different moments in time in a manner analogous to
> moving between different points in space, either sending objects (or
> in some cases just information) backwards in time to a moment before
> the present, or sending objects forward from the present to the future
> without the need to experience the intervening period (at least not at
> the normal rate). Some interpretations of time travel also suggest
> that an attempt to travel backwards in time might take one to a
> parallel universe to diverge from the traveler's original history
> after the moment the traveler arrived in the past. Although time
> travel has been a common plot device in fiction since the 19th
> century, and one-way travel into the future is arguably possible given
> the phenomenon of time dilation based on velocity in the theory of
> special relativity (exemplified by the twin paradox) as well as
> gravitational time dilation in the theory of general relativity, it is
> currently unknown whether the laws of physics would allow backwards
> time travel. Any technological device, whether fictional or
> hypothetical, that is used to achieve two-way time travel is known as
> a time machine.
>
> I do enjoy the Time Machine movies past and present and see some
> validity in the concept. If you look in your yard you may see nothing
> at the time but possibly there is something there but you can't see it
> because it exists in that exact place but only in a different time.
> Something like the twin towers if you were standing at ground zero and
> could turn back time you would see them because they are there in that
> time.
>
> Lynn McTaggart's book The Field connects our physical world with that
> of the cosmos. This correlation is considered to be the basis for
> spiritual healing and other earth space phenomena. This basically
> presents a direct connection of the scientific world with that of the
> spiritual world. Considering that dreams are of significant relevance
> in biblical scripture, I would not dismiss these theoretical
> explorations as whimsical notions. Old and New Testament scripture
> clearly indicate the importance of dream acknowledgment.
>
> Walter Brueggermann, professor emeritus of Old Testament at Columbia
> Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia writes....... The ancient
> world and the biblical tradition knew about dreams. The
> ancients understood that the unbidden communication in the night opens
> sleepers to a world different from the one they manage during the day.
> The ancients dared to imagine, moreover, that this unbidden
> communication is one venue in which the holy purposes of God,
> perplexing and unreasonable as they might be, come to us. They knew
> too that this communication is not obvious. It requires
> interpretation.
>
> Freud, of course, did not link dreams to the holy, which he regarded
> as an illusion. He worked to put dream interpretation on a scientific
> footing, transposing the religious dimension of dreams into a
> psychological reality. Dreams were taken to be disclosure of the
> denied part of the self particularly the self’s repressed desires.
> Though he transposed dreams from religious to psychological realities,
> Freud nonetheless utilized a rabbinic-midrashic interpretive method,
> which involved a patient probing of multi-layered meanings and the
> inscrutable, enigmatic dimensions of life. Dreams, like ancient texts,
> require imaginative interpretation in order for us to receive what
> they disclose.
>
> Personally I stand ambivalent in this area of the scientific or
> spiritual approach to dreaming. I know that I have experienced
> powerful dreams, some of which seem as though I am physically
> somewhere else, while others appear as I'm without physical form but
> merely a detached consciousness beyond the actual location of my
> physical being. What remains as the most difficult task is not only
> the interpretation of dreams but what to do with the knowledge
> attained in the dream state.
>
> Perhaps theories of time travel are validated within the realm of
> dream states through cosmic dimensions.
>
> There was a movie released in 1984 titled Dreamscape in which people
> endowed with psychic abilities were used, in a dream lab study, to
> enter into the dream of another person thereby helping to dissolve
> reoccurring nightmares. Upon entering the dream the psychic could
> physically move about with the patient in the patients dream with the
> objective of confronting the cause of the nightmare. Of course there
> are the devious characters who in the plot try to utilize the psychics
> for their own agenda. But aside from that I found the concept very
> interesting as it presents the aspect of a control mechanism
> pertaining to the dream state. Imagine that you could fall asleep and
> direct yourself to the Olympic games for a few hours and then upon
> waking up remembering it all as a dream. This would be the ultimate
> achievement of dream study.
>
> If I have a dream that I am smoking a cigarette, I may be in a state
> of consciousness without a physical form or more or less tuning into
> the conscious physical form of another person who is smoking a
> cigarette. Unless I can identify my physical form within a dream, and
> establish that it is actually me, then it can possibly be determined
> that the experience is that of someone else. Let's say someone is
> standing on a beach smoking, that person's mental energy becomes part
> of the universal cosmic energy field. I fall asleep and my
> subconscious becomes temporarily attuned to that person thereby
> appearing as if I were smoking when in fact I awake to find I have
> not. If I can ascertain the lucidity of the dream and see myself,
> let's say in a mirror, smoking the cigarette then I would have to
> give some thought to this theory of dream travel with the added
> element of time. This may explain why some people dream of things yet
> to occur in premonitory/precognitive dreams.
>
> Amiel, the philosopher, writes: "In dreams, our individuality isn't
>
> closed; the whole environment is, so to speak, wrapped in it; it is
> the scenery and all its contents, including us. The individual who is
> dreaming is being dissolved into the universal fantasy of
> maya*..." (Amiel, Journal Intime, 1 12 1892)
>
> *Maya, in Indian religions, has multiple meanings. Maya, is the
> principal deity who creates, perpetuates and governs the
> phantasmagoria, illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal
> Universe. For some mystics this manifestation is real, but it is a
> fleeting reality; it is a mistake, although a natural one, to believe
> that Maya represents a fundamental reality or Truth. Each person, each
> physical object, from the perspective of eternity is like a brief,
> disturbed drop of water from an unbounded ocean. The goal of
> enlightenment is to understand this — more precisely, to experience
> this: to see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the
> Universe is a false dichotomy. The distinction between consciousness
> and physical matter, between mind and body, is the result of an
> unenlightened perspective.
>
> So what do you think? Can quantum time travel be validated in the
> dream realm through cosmic dimension?

Molly Brogan

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Sep 8, 2008, 10:17:57 AM9/8/08

to "Minds Eye"

Every state imaginable is possible in dream state, including astral
travel, clairvoyance and past life regression. The soul directs the
conscious mind in REM to allow recognition. Signposts along the way.
Enjoy the ride!

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Sep 9, 2008, 8:08:35 AM9/9/08

to "Minds Eye"

We can exercise a certain amount of control in our dream state, and
this makes for great entertainment in creative dreaming. But like in
life, eventually we find that allowing is more of an essential
function than controlling. As an exercise, and in an effort to learn
to sustain the state of lucid dreaming, you might try to re-enter your
desired dream, but remember, spirit has more possibility than we can
know. Are you doing your push ups to get strong arms, or because you
are strong, doing push ups? Why not let spirit lead the way, and try
to keep up?

Anything is possible in dream, and focus before falling asleep night
after night will get you where you want to go. If you do start
writing down your dreams, it will help your dream recall and ability
to understand. Eventually, patterns will emerge that will give what
seems to be a transcendent understanding. It did for me.

As for channeling, I have not found my personal comfort zone with it,
although I know that much truth has come from it. I have dear friends
that I highly respect who explore this. Again, I think that whatever
modality leads us to spirit is of value. Which color of the rainbow
do you care to explore today? I haven't read the Seth material, but
plan to look into what it says about dreams. Good info on dreams is
hard to find.

I think you are on to something with your thoughts about soul and
spirit. Nicely put.

> ...
>
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gruff

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Sep 9, 2008, 12:56:48 PM9/9/08

to "Minds Eye"

Sorry for the abrupt injection, but I've a link to something which may
be of interest to this discussion. It's called Lucid Dreaming.
http://www.lucidity.com/ . I've not been successful at it, but then I
hardly every remember my dreams.

On Sep 9, 5:08 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>

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Slip Disc

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Sep 9, 2008, 8:19:12 PM9/9/08

to "Minds Eye"

Thanks gruff, interesting reading there. All this discussion of
dreams and the insight that Molly has provided caused me to start
remembering other dreams that I had years ago. Also there is this
thing I have with dead people and dreams.
I remember one where I was dreaming about this famous baseball legend.
I'll try to condense the story. I was floating across a field on a
beautiful sunny day, saw a huge mansion, other people were floating to
the house too and others were standing outside, most were dressed
nicely but not me, I floated over a small white stone wall and my feet
touched the ground. I acknowledged that I was standing there but felt
out of place. Then I walked pass this man in a baseball uniform, he
was old and sitting in a high back chair out in front of the house, I
shook his hand and knew he was famous, he was glowing with joy. He was
happy to see me and was greeting everyone who came. After that I went
into the house, there were many people there, I walked, upstairs into
another room, saw this woman dressed in all white and looking angelic,
all around were beautiful musical instruments but everything was pure
white and gleaming gold. It was exhilarating, I had some words with
her but don't remember except that she said the instruments were not
for playing. (Perhaps they belonged to famous dead musicians). In the
morning as I watched the news the story came on about the death of Ted
Williams, the baseball legend, at the age of 83 at 8:49am ET, July 5,
2002 and just then I knew what the dream was about, and that it was
not just a dream.
This is serious stuff for me. I really want to understand the
importance of my dreams and the connection with me! I dream most every
night and remember most of the intense dreams.

On Sep 9, 11:56 am, gruff <trader...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the abrupt injection, but I've a link to something which may

> be of interest to this discussion. It's called Lucid Dreaming.http://www.lucidity.com/. I've not been successful at it, but then I

> ...
>
> read more »

Molly Brogan

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Sep 10, 2008, 10:13:26 AM9/10/08

to "Minds Eye"

What a great dream, Slip. I felt the exhilaration just reading it!
One thing I know from reading up for my own dreams is that the image
of a house can mean the vessel of your consciousness. I often have
dreams of houses melting away or collapsing. I like yours much
better.

The symbolism of dreams are so personal. If you journaled nightly,
you would begin to see patterns in the way things appear in your
dream, such as houses,chairs, women in white dresses, musical
instruments. Observing the patterns gives you the best feeling for
meaning.

I loved that you were told the instruments were not for playing. I
would guess that you were being invited in to play on a level other
than physical.

Pre cognitive dreams are always exciting, and allow a knowing that we
are greater than just ourselves and can tap into that! Dreaming about
a murder across town the night before it happens is not as much fun
and provoke an urge of responsibility. Having the news confirm the
death of a celebrity whose hand you got to shake is so wonderfully
affirming!

As with everything, striving to understand the process of dreaming can
be more rewarding than striving to understand the contents of
individual dreams. But both are valuable. Applause, applause.

> ...
>
> read more »

Molly Brogan

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Sep 11, 2008, 8:14:38 AM9/11/08

to "Minds Eye"

This is a great link, gruff. Thanks so much. Although very
scientific in approach, there is certainly a wealth of good info
here. I signed up for the newsletter. So far, I especially like this
page and the explanation of different dream levels:

http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#OBE

Thanks, again.

Molly

On Sep 9, 12:56 pm, gruff <trader...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the abrupt injection, but I've a link to something which may

> be of interest to this discussion. It's called Lucid Dreaming.http://www.lucidity.com/. I've not been successful at it, but then I

> ...
>
> read more »

Molly Brogan

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Sep 11, 2008, 8:20:07 AM9/11/08

to "Minds Eye"

Here we go:

"Drugs in the LSD family, including psilocybin and tryptamines
actually stimulate REM sleep"

We can laugh our way through the night with psilocybin! Did anyone
catch the season premier of the TV show Fringe? It actually showed a
woman ingest LSD, enter a sensory deprivation tank, and enter the
dream of someone in a coma to communicate with them. While I don't
think the drugs or tank are necessary for that, I was delighted to see
the notion on the tube in light of our conversations here.

On Sep 9, 12:56 pm, gruff <trader...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for the abrupt injection, but I've a link to something which may

> be of interest to this discussion. It's called Lucid Dreaming.http://www.lucidity.com/. I've not been successful at it, but then I

> ...
>
> read more »

Ian Pollard

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Sep 11, 2008, 6:33:35 PM9/11/08

to Mind...@googlegroups.com

2008/9/11 Molly Brogan <mbr...@mollybroganenterprises.com>:

>
> We can laugh our way through the night with psilocybin! Did anyone
> catch the season premier of the TV show Fringe? It actually showed a
> woman ingest LSD, enter a sensory deprivation tank, and enter the
> dream of someone in a coma to communicate with them. While I don't
> think the drugs or tank are necessary for that, I was delighted to see
> the notion on the tube in light of our conversations here.

I've not seen this show you're talking about Molly, but it does rather remind me of an idea I had for a novel some years ago. It was about a college tutor who was having rather sexual dreams about his students. It emerges -- following a fling with one of these students -- that his dreams pierce into the consciousness, or rather unconsciousness, of the people he dreams about and they share his exact dreams.

He learns to control his dreams and create idyllic fantasy worlds for himself and assorted people he is fond of. Unfortunately, he then takes an enormous overdose of hallucinogenic drugs, slips into a coma, and his students are trapped inside his dreams and are unable to wake up unless he wakes up from his coma. Which would be great if he was dreaming about lovely forests and waterfalls, but the acid has sends him completely sideways, and these people end up being ripped to pieces by all manner of horrors, perversions, and demons. There was a nice scene I'd mapped out that was a dinner party with the devil, where he drives a girl insane and forces her to eat her own face.

Ian

Slip Disc

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> > has observed very similar phenomena.- Hide quoted text -

Molly Brogan

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Sep 12, 2008, 10:33:46 AM9/12/08

to "Minds Eye"

Yikes. I am thankful, now, that I waited until later in life, when my
group had mostly non dual thinkers. Looks like that can save you from
the fiery depths, although I recall a couple of anthropologists well
versed in shamanism that may have saved the day. Your story here
sound to me more like my adolesence, when Timothy Leary's products
flooded the streets. I was called in on a rescue mission from time to
time because as we all know, there is a code with kids that adults can
not be called in to assist until the bitter end. But adults were
called in on occasion because there were some kids during that era
that were never the same after experimenting. It was always a
heartbreak to witness. You were lucky to pull your friend back.
Adolesence is a delicate age, psychologically, for everyone. But
wonderful too, because we are wide open to new experience then. I had
a bias about Timothy Leary's work because of that. It is interesting
now to see that most of his collegues, like Stanislav Groff are
offering "transpersonal training" and teaching breathwork.

ornamentalmind

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Sep 12, 2008, 11:33:21 AM9/12/08

to "Minds Eye"

While not directly a dream state, within meditation I/we perceive all
of 'us', past, present and future, and often within one specific
meditation dedicated to that apprehension.

On Sep 12, 7:33 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

Pat

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Sep 12, 2008, 12:05:17 PM9/12/08

to "Minds Eye"

On 12 Sep, 15:33, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

> Yikes. I am thankful, now, that I waited until later in life, when my
> group had mostly non dual thinkers. Looks like that can save you from
> the fiery depths, although I recall a couple of anthropologists well
> versed in shamanism that may have saved the day. Your story here
> sound to me more like my adolesence, when Timothy Leary's products
> flooded the streets. I was called in on a rescue mission from time to
> time because as we all know, there is a code with kids that adults can
> not be called in to assist until the bitter end. But adults were
> called in on occasion because there were some kids during that era
> that were never the same after experimenting. It was always a
> heartbreak to witness. You were lucky to pull your friend back.
> Adolesence is a delicate age, psychologically, for everyone. But
> wonderful too, because we are wide open to new experience then. I had
> a bias about Timothy Leary's work because of that. It is interesting
> now to see that most of his collegues, like Stanislav Groff are
> offering "transpersonal training" and teaching breathwork.
>

Whilst we may have been lucky at the time, unfortunately, she
passed away earlier this year. And she was the youngest of us. While
she had battled and beaten breast cancer, she eventually succombed to
atherosclerosis. Your story of the LSD trips reminds me of the old
Saturday Night Live skit where Jimmy Carter (Dan Ackroyd) was called
in to talk someone down after ingesting some Orange Sunshine. A truly
great skit!!

In fact...Here it is:

Season 2: Episode 15

Walter Cronkite (Bill Murray): Thank you, Mr. President, ha ha! Our
next call is Peter Elkin of Westbrook, Oregon, whom I am told is 17
years of age.

Peter (Tom Davis on phone): Hello? Hello?

President Jimmy Carter (Dan Aykroyd): Yes. Hello, Peter?

Peter (on phone): Is this the President?

President Jimmy Carter: Yes, it is.

Walter Cronkite: Do you have a question for the President?

Peter (on phone): Uh.. I, uh.. I took some acid.. I'm afraid to leave
my apartment, and I can't wear any clothes.. and the ceiling is
dripping, and uh.. I, uh..

Walter Cronkite: Well, thank you very much for calling, sir..

President Jimmy Carter: Just a minute, Walter, this guy's in trouble.
I think I better try to talk him down. Peter?

Peter (on phone): Yeah..?

President Jimmy Carter: Peter, what did the acid look like?

Peter (on phone): They were these little orange pills.

President Jimmy Carter: Were they barrel shaped?

Peter (on phone): Uh.. yes.

President Jimmy Carter: Okay, right, you did some orange sunshine,
Peter.

Peter (on phone): Very good of you to know that, sir.

President Jimmy Carter: How long ago did you take it, Peter?

Peter (on phone): Uh.. I don't know. I can't read my watch.

President Jimmy Carter: Alright, Peter, just listen. Everything is
going to be fine. You're very high right now. You will probably be
that way for about five more hours. Try taking some vitamin B complex,
vitamin C complex.. if you have a beer, go ahead and drink it..

Peter (on phone): Okay..

President Jimmy Carter: Just remember you're a living organism on this
planet, and you're very safe. You've just taken a heavy drug. Relax,
stay inside and listen to some music, Okay? Do you have any Allman
Brothers?

Peter (on phone): Yes, I do, sir. Everything is okay, huh Jimmy?

President Jimmy Carter: It sure is, Peter. You know, I'm against drug
use myself, but I'm not going to lay that on you right now. Just
mellow out the best you can, okay?

Peter (on phone): Okay..!

President Jimmy Carter: Okay.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

gruff

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Sep 12, 2008, 12:37:31 PM9/12/08

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Sep 13, 2008, 12:29:57 PM9/13/08

to "Minds Eye"

You're completely right, Slip. Everything we do influences our dreams
as well as those states of mind achieved through drugs. It couldn't
be any other way, really. We are the sum total of everything we have
consumed and experienced.

But I get a sense you are disapproving of drug states as being
productive of anything useful. You are also right about that. I
would never recommend drugs as a means of growth or enlightenment for
anyone because for most they only circumscribe destruction. But they
did work for me. Either that or I've committed the biggest fraud of
my life on myself.

Yet I've achieved some of the states described by you and others by
dropping a couple hits of good acid, rowing out to the middle of the
lake and laying back till I could feel nothing but the gentle sway of
the boat and in the darkness where the gunwhales met the sky the
universe exploded before me. I attained understandings and insights
I'd never achieved before but brought only a few of them away with
me. Yet enough to put me where I am now so I can't discount them
entirely. I only wish I could have kept them all, for none of the
ones I've retained have been invalidated. I felt a close kinship with
the character played by John Hurt in Altered States.

If you're not familiar with the movie, it's about a scientist who
hears of a South American tribe which ingest a local alkaloid and the
entire tribe have exactly the same hallucination. Fascinated by this
he seeks out the tribe and is allowed to take part in one of these
religious trances. The insights he achieves are amazing and he comes
back and convinces a colleague of his to assist him in synthesizing
the drug which he then proceeds to take under supervision while in a
saline isolation chamber. After a few of these trips he actually
begins to undergo physical transformation into a being of pure energy
and is only brought back to the reality of this world by the love
between him and his mate. It gets a bit fantastic in the end, but
hell, fantastic is what we're all about, aren't we?

When I was trying Naomi's (the therapist) method of waking myself up
every 45 minutes throughout the night to record my dreams, after a
time I found I could go back to sleep and re-enter the same dream if I
wished, which I did several times to see how things turned out before
I discovered that dreams never end, they just morph into something
else.

But travel to other realities, to the past and the future. I don't
know. I like the idea of it, the idea of doing it. I've always been
up for an adventure. But my pragmatic side tells me its no more than
wishful thinking. At least at this stage of our development. Who
knows what the vast future holds even if it is ours to make.

AmandaRheen

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Sep 13, 2008, 12:37:35 PM9/13/08

to "Minds Eye"

Dear Slip Disc

To the present I have been reading this thread with some interest, but
without comment. By the time I have digested what others have said
and considered my own thoughts, the thread has almost become a
personal conversation that I feel I might be intruding upon. I am no
good at teleconferences for the same reason. I often end up saying
nothing. By the time I have finally developed a considered opinion,
the party has moved on. Alas, I have the power of thought, but not the
speed.

But this dream of yours about traversing the cliff, has stuck in my
head; especially given it is a dream that you have experienced several
times over a period of your life. That alone makes me think it is
more than an eating cheese late at night dream. More like a dream to
be associated with individual development.

At one point in my own life I did a reasonable amount of reading on
dream interpretation. My own contemplative learning led me down the
path of mostly a Jungian bent, and so it is with a Jungian bent that I
interpret (shallowly) now. Please do not think that I am representing
myself as an expert, or even particularly qualified in the area, but I
will tell you what I know (if that’s what you can call it) :-) If you
are interested, the book I am mostly referring to is ‘Man and his
Symbols’ by Carl Jung.

Would you consider this? That your dream may relate to your ego’s
wrestling with the personal integration of one of the ‘mysteries’
associated with being human. That your dream is your unconscious,
universal ‘Self’ attempting conversation with your ego?
Jung considered the ‘Self’ as the most inner, central aspect of the
psyche, and that ultimately the psyche’s primary concern is not with
political power or social popularity (surprise, surprise) but with the
life-course development of being human. The Self (Jungian) is the
aspect of us that is like the great, wise and powerful, unconscious
totality of what it is to be human.

The particular ‘mystery’ of this dream, (and now I’m going out on a
limb) may be what Jung refers to as transcending the universally human
problem of finding balance between Liberation/Release and
Containment.

There seems to be a lot of symbols depicting transcendence in your
dream. (You are crossing a river) which apparently is a symbol often
associated with fundamental changes in how and what we think about
things. (The water was green but clear) I am guessing things might
have seemed a little murky but generally you were healthy?

(You see a snake) often considered a symbol of transcendence relating
to your instinctual self. You don’t seem to be frightened of this
snake and with practice; you in fact go looking for it. Cool :-), you
trust your instinctive self; this has got to be a good thing. (Jung,
1978) “The Self is often symbolized as an animal, representing our
instinctive nature and its connectedness with one’s surroundings” aka
the rest of the universe. In Man and his Symbols, Jung describes the
snake as a “symbol of lower transcendence from the collective
unconscious of the underworld to Earthly realities” (whatever you
think that means). So perhaps it is connected to death, fertility,
birth of consciousness, family of origin thinking – don’t know. I’ll
leave that to you. But whatever it means, the snake (your instinctual
self) is more deeply (swimming under you) at home with it and quicker
at it (swims away from you). Having said this, your purpose is not to
continue swimming with the snake, but to move on and up so to speak.

You get out of the river and stand on top of the Earth. (You walk to
the right down a dirt path to a towering cliff). In landscapes Jung
sees that which is on the left as unconscious and that which is on the
right as conscious. To go on a journey into the wilderness alone is
also similar to initiation style rite-of-passage stories. Were you a
very young man when you were having these dreams, or alternatively
transitioning from one life stage of development to another? At this
point in the dream there are no animals and no other people, just the
towering cliff. So I am assuming the traversing of this cliff is
either a journey in increasing consciousness, intellectual
development, or spiritual progression. Again, I don’t really know and
will leave that to you. It is certainly the aspect of your dream that
speaks to me of Liberation/Release to the point of personal concern
for psychological/emotional safety. Ring any bells???

At the end, the last 15 feet (the path gets smaller and smaller
without much room for footing. I see an opening close by but
traversing this section is treacherous, and so I'm clinging for dear
life at this point.). This is the point at which you consciously
realize that you’ve got way enough liberation/release thanks very
much, and head for the showers. But I have to say, whatever this
opening was from a distance, was something that you had to work
consciously really hard to reach. It involved having to make your
liberation scarier than your containment. (lol, you didn’t happen to
get married at this point did you?)

Anyway… The opening (golden glow), that you say is someone’s home, is
your containment. And the reason, no-body was ever home was because
it’s your home. The golden glow was waiting for you.

Please feel welcome to totally reject what I have written a) because
you disagree with the theoretical premises associated with Jungian
dream interpretation, b) interpretation has obvious limits when using
the written word alone, c) it just doesn’t feel right, d) my intrusion
at this stage of the conversation is unwelcome, e) other.

On Aug 29, 2:38 am, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Was it like dreaming about having sex and then having a hard time
> getting up in the morning? {;-]
>
> I see the difference your are trying to point out. One place is
> actually a parallel existence with nearly identical similarities.
> While the other is dreaming and utilizing subconscious remnants of
> thought process as elements of the dream. Basically you are really not
> physically there but just mentally present.
>
> I used to have this recurring dream where I swam across a river, the
> water was green but clear, a snake would swim under me and away. Upon
> reaching the other side I would walk to the right down a dirt path to
> a towering cliff. The path starts to go up the cliff but it gets
> smaller and smaller without much room for footing. I see an opening
> close by but traversing this section is treacherous, and so I'm
> clinging for dear life at this point. I finally make it and look
> inside the hole which is an opening to someones home. The interior is
> warm and very cozy. No one is there and I climb in but then I wake
> up.
>
> The next time I have the same exact dream in the same exact place with
> the same exact appearance except when I'm swimming across the river
> I'm aware that I have been there before, I'm actually looking for the
> snake. The snake appears and the dream continues and I'm remembering
> being there before anticipating looking through the opening. I get
> there and look in but no one is ever there.
>
> After the third and last time I could remember having the dream I had
> to seriously spend some time thinking about the dream and rehashing
> it's events as to try to put something together. But I never could
> and it remains one of those mysterious dreams.
>
> On Aug 28, 7:43 am, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 28 Aug, 13:09, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You told this story before. Comparing the (at least) two versions
> > > might help you to understand which parts of your self are still
> > > struggling with their integration.
>
> > Also, last time I told the story, I wasn't at work and trying to
> > abridge where possible for time considerations.
>
> > > On 28 Aug., 12:34, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On 28 Aug, 10:19, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Make sure though, that you put a lot of money in the wallet next time
> > > > > you dream so I can find it in my dream and spend it at the dream
> > > > > store. ;-).
> > > > > That would be something to discover, that parallel plane where people
> > > > > could gather together in a dream. However, I'm a bit confused by your
> > > > > opening line. Not the parallel plane of existence but the dream-
> > > > > disjoined aspect of physical reality. What exactly is the
> > > > > difference? You are saying that the parallel plane of existence
> > > > > remains intact and appearances are consistent upon a revisit. So if I
> > > > > dream the same dream 2 years later, everything in the dream is the
> > > > > same. I'm not getting the disjoined part.
>
> > > > Yeah, when I read that back myself I found it didn't say CLEARLY
> > > > what I'd intended, so I understand your misunderstanding. What I was
> > > > getting at by 'a disjoined aspect of physical reality' was another
> > > > location in physical space joined to one's experience only through
> > > > dreaming. The 'disjoined' bit was to indicate that we can experience
> > > > the 'other location' only when we are dreaming. A 'disjoin' is the
> > > > kind of relationship expressed by the word 'or'; so, in this csae, we
> > > > either exist in physical reality OR the dreamscape, thus a disjoined
> > > > aspect of physical reality would be a real physical place only
> > > > experienced whilst dreaming.
> > > > What I was saying was that I think it's more likely that the
> > > > dreamscape is a 'less tangible reality' that occurs in parallel with
> > > > our physical reality than it is an alternativeplace on the physical
> > > > plane. And, by 'a less tangible reality' I mean a form of existence
> > > > that cannot be touched by physical processes.
> > > > That said, I DID have a dreamlike experience, once, from which I
> > > > obtained physical scars. But that was a special case in which the
> > > > dream experience may not have actually taken place in the normal
> > > > dreamscape. Some 30ish years ago, when I was in my 'rebelling against
> > > > Christianity' stage, I flirted with Satanism to the extent of
> > > > attempting to make a pact with the Devil. On Halloween night,I locked
> > > > my bedroom door, put the pact under my pillow, turned out the light
> > > > and crawled into bed. I fell asleep rather quickly and had a 'dream'
> > > > in which I met some rather devilish creature that lifted me up by my
> > > > head, scratched his fingers down my neck along the tops of my
> > > > shoulders, looked me in the eye and shouted, "You? Never!". I woke up
> > > > immediately and found that the light was on in my room, I was half
> > > > hanging off my bed sideways, the bed was fully made underneath me, as
> > > > if it had never been slept in and the pact was NOT under the pillow
> > > > where I'd left it but, rather, it had been put into my wallet. And,
> > > > when I looked in the mirror, I noticed there were two parallel
> > > > scratches running across the tops of my shoulders from my neck and the
> > > > scratches were perfectly straight lines and connected by a little
> > > > chevron such that they formed an elongated H-like shape. And they
> > > > were fresh scratches. Although it seemed as if I had only been asleep
> > > > for about half an hour, it was just a little past 3:00AM. That was
> > > > the ONLY time, though, that I ever had tangible evidence after a
> > > > dreamlike experience. But, as I said, as it was a special case, I may
> > > > not have been in the usual dreamscape.
>
> > > > > You should see the movie "Dreamscape"
>
> > > > > On Aug 27, 6:26 pm, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I think it's more likely that dreaming takes place on a parallel
> > > > > > plane of existence rather than a dream-disjoined aspect of physical
> > > > > > reality. That would explain the language similarities and the
> > > > > > existence of people who are 'similar' to those you know but not
> > > > > > exactly the same. For example, when I dream of my parents, they don't
> > > > > > seem to age in the dreamscape and houses, although they are familiar
> > > > > > and 'supposed to be' certain specific houses, often have different
> > > > > > floor plans than their corresponding selves in real life. Yet, those
> > > > > > floor plans are consistent in that new rooms don't appear in
> > > > > > subsequent dreams. And, if I put a wallet into a drawer in dream A,
> > > > > > if I revisit that drawer in dream B, the wallet will be exactly where
> > > > > > I left it. In MY dreamscape, everything is slightly different than in
> > > > > > reality, but completely internally consistent. To me, that smacks of
> > > > > > being parallel rather than just elsewhere in physical reality. but,
> > > > > > of course, I can only go on my own dreams. I'd still love to get a
> > > > > > bunch of lucid dreamers together that were all familiar with the same
> > > > > > Earth-bound geography in order to test internal consistency across
> > > > > > dreamscapes to find out if dreamer A could leave a message for dreamer
> > > > > > B to find. If that could ever be demonstrated repeatedly, we'd have
> > > > > > very strong evidence of a parallel plane of existence.
>
> > > > > > > On Aug 26, 6:43 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Very nice piece on dreaming, Slip. It sounds like your dream state
> > > > > > > > includes both creative and lucid dreaming, both very important as they
> > > > > > > > allow integration on many levels. I think we have a tendency to try
> > > > > > > > to analyze our dreams rationally. While this can be amusing and
> > > > > > > > sometimes even productive, say when we open psychological doors with
> > > > > > > > dream interpretation, it can also be self limiting when we stop
> > > > > > > > there. Dreaming is also a function of soul, and our astral and
> > > > > > > > etheric bodies express, communicate and integrate while we dream. The
> > > > > > > > boundaries of logic are lost here, and our wonderful surreal
> > > > > > > > experience with all of its symbolism and archetypes form the
> > > > > > > > experience. There are certainly "places" that the soul can take you
> > > > > > > > that the rational mind cannot find alone. Yet this is all self
> > > > > > > > exploration, because at the deepest levels of soul, there is no other,
> > > > > > > > we are the all of everything. There is no other place. We are
> > > > > > > > everywhere. Our dream state just makes it easier to get there. In
> > > > > > > > order to explore the many, we include the one, and all doors open for
> > > > > > > > us.

>
> > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 11:38 pm, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Are we experiencing quantum travel in our dreams?
>
> > > > > > > > > Sometimes I wonder, when I dream and it feels as if I am physically in
> > > > > > > > > another place if that dream is a manifestation of my subconscious mind
> > > > > > > > > or if I am experiencing a consciousness in a parallel universe or
> > > > > > > > > within another dimension of our own universe. Recently astronomers
> > > > > > > > > found a smaller version of our own solar system 5,000 light-years
> > > > > > > > > across the galaxy, this is the first planetary system that really
> > > > > > > > > looks like our own, with outer giant planets and room for smaller
> > > > > > > > > inner planets. Of course it is beyond our reach physically but what

> > > > > > > > > about our capacity to subconsciously travel through the hypothetical- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

gruff

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Sep 13, 2008, 1:05:14 PM9/13/08

to "Minds Eye"

Las Vegas ... now there's a town of dreams. Real live, hardcore, in
your face dreams. You are absolutely beautifully perfectly right
about a lot of things: the entertainment, the countryside, the easy
access to the entire west coast of the U.S., all the natural wonders
and beauties of the desert. I've enjoyed them all to the maximum
allowed and occasionally beyond. I was backstage at the performance
of Hair at the International when the entire cast were arrested by the
Clark County D.A. for nudity while nude reviews were playing at half
the casinos on the strip.

But the town, the politics, the culture, the hospitality? I have to
question your sanity on thesee Molly. Unless the town has changed
dramatically -- impossibly -- since I left in 2000, it has always been
a very hard town and with good reason. It's a gambling town. Reno
has the same problem, just not as big. Being a gambling town, it's
the biggest cash economy in the nation and every two-bit tinhorn
cheat, thief, crook, con artist -- as well as some very large and
successful ones -- has come to Las Vegas at one time or another to
take a shot at that town. And not just on the tables. Las Vegas'
crime rate has always been outrageous, even back when the mob ran the
town. In the fifies and sixties there were the union wars and the
Lamb family that put a lot of people in the desert permanently.

I've seen the rogues gallery of people who crossed Binion's
Horseshoe. They were usually beaten to a pulp and held up between two
burly security guards for a Polaroid shot. I doubt it's there today,
but it used to be in the Security shack and used to scare the hell out
of lesser offenders.

I know Oscar Goodman's background. I know Jan Jones' background. I
watched them grow and gain power. I watched Harry Reid too. I've
seen them in action and their histories are none to savory. I know
the history of the Leavitts in Nevada which are highly influential to
say the least. Las Vegas has always been a town that went for cheap
flash and bankrolls big enough to choke a horse, even if they were one
hundred wrapped around fifty singles.

The most superficial of things dazzled most Las Vegans, and you had to
be careful of anyone showing friendliness because your first question
had to be what did they want. The town ran (and probably still does)
on drugs. Speed and coke in particular. Las Vegas is a fast hard
town. I remember when the shakers and movers tried to repackage Las
Vegas as a family town. That joke never lasted very long.

I know, most other cities have the same problems, but Las Vegas,
because it's a gambling town and because of its history, has those
same problems to a higher greater more intense degree than most other
places in the U.S.

And I never recall Las Vegas having any culture nor any sense of its
own history. Some really great casinos were blown up as so much
detritus to make way for newer, flashier, more impossible casinos.
Las Vegas is a playground for the mentally twisted.

I'm not saying that Las Vegas doesn't have good people, but they are
generally in hiding and keep a low profile. Goodness, generosity,
kindness ... they are generally considered weaknesses in Las Vegas.

What kept bringing me back to it was a particular characteristic that
I've never seen anywhere else I've moved to or lived, and that is it's
openness. Openness in the sense of anyone can move to Las Vegas and
find work, good work that pays well, and work their way up to become
financially secure and have a good life -- if they play by the rules.
But Las Vegas is a hard town too. Much like Hollywood, it's a town a
lot of people come to with high hopes and wind up getting destroyed.

Come on, Molly. Tell me more about your Las Vegas experience but
please don't turn pollyanna on me? It actually even fits into this
thread as it is a city of dreams. I'm sure some great discussions
would arise out of a frank discussion of such an interesting place.
It surely tests the mettle of our higher awareness which would be
fertile ground.

On Sep 13, 5:28 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

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Sep 14, 2008, 7:50:09 PM9/14/08

to "Minds Eye"

Tracy, I would first like to offer my thanks in appreciation for all
you have presented concerning my dream and further do not in anyway
consider it intrusion on your part. You will find that participants in
this group are well accepted regardless of their stance. Though I'm
not familiar with Jung aside from the name, opening doors to new ideas
and aspects of life is my general policy; I definitely have a penchant
for learning. Since the inception of my membership in Minds Eye I have
grown in great strides thanks to the offerings of other members. The
information, books, links, philosophical/psychological references
aside from the personal views members provide is a great resource for
learning. In fact, as a result I have become the most intelligent
person on the planet! LOL (possibly a planet in a parallel universe) I
highly recommend this place!!
To get back to the dream I would have to say the Jung aspects and
interpretations presented require more in-depth examination on my part
in order to deny or accept validity, as you said you will leave it up
to me to decide. You say (But this dream of yours about traversing the
cliff, has stuck in my head) and rightly so as this dream does have
meaning, the interpretations of which can be many. I do on the surface
accept portions of the interpretations, however, the dream is old and
therefore recollections of my life that coincide with the dream have
possibly escaped me. I have lived, so far, a very complex life that
continually changes without rest, in fact my time here in Minds Eye
may prove to be a temporary excursion and I may never be seen again at
some point in time.
I have often wondered about my birth sign if there was ever any
significance with it; middle of the century, middle of the year,
middle of the month in the middle of the night, in the middle of two
brothers, blind in one eye at birth, I'm sure you can put it
together. I'm not a strong believer in astrology but sometimes there
are those uncanny instances where I can't help but notice. I would not
discount it as a factor for there are biblical references pertaining
to times of birth, as there are those pertaining to the importance of
dreams. It's not that I believe any of it as factual but mostly
allegorical content, the bible does present a recorded account of life
in past times. Considering that dreams and birth signs are not
exclusive to the modern world, it is subject matter that has been
explored for thousands of years. I wonder if Adam and Eve had any
dreams when in fact they had no past to dream about. Or did they?
You say: ("Would you consider this? That your dream may relate to

your ego’s wrestling with the personal integration of one of the

‘mysteries’ associated with being human.")
I have often felt as if I am not an integral part of humanity but
merely a voyeur from the spiritual realm. My soul reflects living
experiences that are centuries old. Born with a multitude of talent
and ability set me apart from the blue collar family within which I
lived. There is no other like me within my immediate or extended
family and therefore I was the oddball, not necessarily the black
sheep but simply misunderstood by those whose minds were limited. I
knew at a very young age that I was not part if it all. Surely it is
true that I have struggled to find myself, to get to know the me, the
id, the self. I've always questioned the why of my being here as
others have as well. Humanity is in dire straits. Perhaps God is in a
quandary of what to do with the wayward creation. Perhaps there is no
God but merely a promulgation of truths set forth by our ancestral
beings, hodgepodge from our primordial beginnings.
So of course I am traversing the cliff of awareness, the cliff of
discovery, but with guidance from another plane.
As I said earlier, but I'm being summoned right now so I must blah
blah blah, this all requires more in depth exploration.
At a later date, of course.
Again I appreciate your interjection and feel free to continue with
whatever thoughts you may have.
Peace!

> ...
>
> read more »

Slip Disc

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Sep 15, 2008, 4:37:39 AM9/15/08

to "Minds Eye"

Thanks for continuing to elaborate on these dream principles. I can
see that I should take more time to view a dream as being not just a
part of the self but all of the self, the entire self awake or asleep.
I had lost a great deal of self awareness in my younger years which
were spent mostly in turmoil and survival modes, the deterrents of
development. I guess this is why I never really paid much mind to my
dreams nor recognized the importance of cataloging and interpretation.
I think more than half my life has been spent on unfocused venture.
Now I can see new avenues from which to explore and I'm experiencing
retrospective growth as a result. I guess it's like stepping back to
view the canvass of my life and seeing the true meaning of the
colors.
I'm not sure about your references to grace, faith and divine will
during my dream analysis but primarily and initially wanted to find
the quantum travel association with dreams, however, this thread
journey has been and continues to be rewarding and enjoyable. Each
poster has something new and exciting to offer in the perspective of
the dreamscape.

On Sep 13, 7:28 am, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

Molly Brogan

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Sep 15, 2008, 9:02:36 AM9/15/08

to "Minds Eye"

In regard to quantum dream travel, what the scientist that I know have
taught me is: there are an infinite number of dimensions and each
dimension is infinite. To me, this means that possibility is
unlimited, especially in dream where the rational mind takes a back
seat. What is nice, is that "others" can verify these dream travel
experiences because we sometimes share them.

gruff

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Sep 15, 2008, 11:31:03 AM9/15/08

to "Minds Eye"

Most old timers have nothing but disdain for HH. He came into Nevada
big time. Bought up dozens of casinos, hundreds of old mining claims,
thumbed his nose at state government, refused to pay taxes, then set
about turning a Mafia-run Las Vegas into a corporate town run by bean
counters. Granted, financially it has turned out to be a huge boon
for the state, but not many people liked old HH. He was a full-blown
nutcase who reclusively withdrew from the world into his own little
cocoon of drugs and insanity. He was eventually diagnosed as
suffering from an anxiety disorder (extreme OCD) and drug addiction.
He died in this condition and if you want to read something really
bizarre, check out the story of his death and how the body was
spirited from place to place to keep his death hidden from the world
while his underlings got their piece of his enormous assets. Robert
Maheu, his second in command, eventually left HH with a multi-million
dollar settlement. It's a fascinating story that mixes the excitement
of Las Vegas with the financial shenanigans of a reclusive nutjob.

I wouldn't exactly call LV's one-way ticket out of town a great social
program. The casinos fund it because all they want to do is get rid
of people who have lost all their money. Losers are a bad image for
Las Vegas image. But truth be known, there are billions of dollars
won by visitors to Las Vegas every year. That's why people keep
coming there. The last year I have any numbers for is 2001. That
year more than 35 million visitors gambled $110 BILLION dollars in Las
Vegas casinos. Out of that the casinos kept an overall average of 7%
as profit. That means that the casinos raked in $7.7 billion in
gaming revenues for one year. What makes this all the more impressive
is that $102.3 billion was returned to the players as winnings. Las
Vegas can easily be seen as a huge machine for redistributing wealth
and since most of that is cash, making Las Vegas the largest cash
economy in the world, it's a primary target for every two-bit crook,
con artist, theif and hustler in the world. I'm sorry Molly, but Las
Vegas is not at the top of anyone's list of best places to live.

On Sep 14, 1:15 pm, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>
wrote:

Ian Pollard

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Sep 15, 2008, 12:10:46 PM9/15/08

to Mind...@googlegroups.com

2008/9/13 gruff <trad...@gmail.com>

Chuckle. Were you thinking of the Igli, Molly? In Glory Road? And
Dali yes, Dali in his melting period. You should write the story
Ian. It's got sufficient grotesque to interest me.

Maybe I'll revisit it someday, when I've finished the other three novels that never seem to want to be finished! :)

It would have been better written when I thought of it at 16 than now at 31; I was far more fixated with the shocking and grotesque and could have probably mustered much more enthusiasm for it. Given that society is now so anaesthetised against shocking literature and television, it's incredibly hard these days to write something genuinely in-your-face shocking. In recent times, films like Saw succeeded somewhat. I think, in my old age, I'm more about foul, creeping, insidiousness. Or a suggestion thereof.

I've greatly enjoyed your meandering biographical tales, Gruff; have you ever been tempted record as some Kerouac/Bukowksi/DeLillo -esque memoir?

Ian

Molly Brogan

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Sep 15, 2008, 12:30:41 PM9/15/08

to "Minds Eye"

That WOULD be a great read.

On Sep 15, 12:10 pm, "Ian Pollard" <ian.poll...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/13 gruff <trader...@gmail.com>

ornamentalmind

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unread,

Sep 16, 2008, 10:05:58 AM9/16/08

to "Minds Eye"

Here is the way Thoreau put it:

Under the moon on that clear night, both frightened and amazed, I took
a deep breath and closed my eyes. "Back" I said, and my whole life
changed forever.

Wholeness. Contentment. Joy and Bliss. Awareness without an Other.
Love radiating outward into itself. No beginnings, no endings. No
births or deaths. To Life, there is no opposite.

From the Stillness, a subtle tug, a tiny ripple on the empty ocean. A
single twitch, a little pull and suddenly there were Two.

Ripped apart by desires unknown. She, the World and I, me. No longer
One, we now were Two. It ís all my fault... Forgive me.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not
fish they are after.
Henry David Thoreau

For Thoreau, it is desire that is the creative force. Here, you can
see his discovery of belief, the transcendence, from fishing for fish
to fishing to fish...

gruff

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Sep 16, 2008, 11:40:16 AM9/16/08

to "Minds Eye"

Molly, you are very much somebody and a very likable somebody at
that. I never implied anything contrary nor am I going to turn this
into an argument. I just ask you to consider one point -- that free
one-way ticket out of town is only given to those who have lost
everything, who have nothing left, who have gambled it all away. And
those down and out can get such a ticket from any number of charity
organizations in just about any city in this country. It's not unique
to Las Vegas.

On Sep 15, 1:21 pm, Molly Brogan <mbro...@mollybroganenterprises.com>