New, simple, and robust method to assess clinical agreement

[Abhaya Indrayan]

Preprint, for your review.

Direct use of clinical tolerance limits for assessing agreement: A robust nonparametric approach  Abhaya Indrayan 2021, Preprint 30 Views  View PDF ▸   Download PDF ⬇ ABSTRACT Clinical agreement between two quantitative measurements on a group of subjects is generally assessed with the help of the Bland-Altman (B-A) limits. The interpretation regarding agreement is based on whether B-A limits are within the pre-specified clinical tolerance. Thus, clinical tolerance limits are necessary... read more... 580 California St., Suite 400, San Francisco, CA, 94104 Unsubscribe   Privacy Policy   Terms of Service   © 2022 Academia

                                                           

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Dr Abhaya Indrayan, 

Personal website: http://indrayan.weebly.com

[Bruce Weaver]

Hello Dr. Indrayan.  I don't have an ACADEMIA account, so cannot view that pre-print.  But I assume it is the same method that was discussed in this thread:

• https://groups.google.com/g/medstats/c/YR-2uLLacrc/m/4ZfwV4-kBAAJ?hl=en

Is that right? 

Cheers,

Bruce

[John Whittington]

At 21:06 06/09/2022, Bruce Weaver wrote:

Hello Dr. Indrayan.  I don't have an ACADEMIA account, so cannot view that pre-print.  But I assume it is the same method that was discussed in this thread:

• https://groups.google.com/g/medstats/c/YR-2uLLacrc/m/4ZfwV4-kBAAJ?hl=en

Is that right? 

Bruce, you can get access to the paper in question at:

https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=472093064123003105085024114001018009041017062031079020023096112006116012118123117024030049123054053040034001123075084095081001051016034093003065115078018112081089124014013043072119065000098087000008091095088092125024019070077093124090123085031096070112&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 4:38:42 AM UTC-4 aindrayan wrote:

Preprint, for your review.

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[Abhaya Indrayan]

Thank you very much, Bruce, for reminding me about our previous discussions in this group on this method. This now is a much extended and full version of the article that possibly addresses some of the issues raised previously. I should have acknowledged that. It seems my memory is failing me and I take the responsibility. 

~Abhaya

--

Dr Abhaya Indrayan

Personal website: http://indrayan.weebly.com

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[Bruce Weaver]

Thanks John.  Got it. 

[Bruce Weaver]

No worries!  😉

[John Whittington]

Abhaya,

I can't remember whether this is something we discussed previously (iif so, my apologies for resurrecting it!) but ....

.... there would seem to be a conceptual anomaly/inconsistency in the way you present your case in the paper. You start by listing 11 'problems' with the B-A method, and appear to be saying that the 'most severe' of these problems is:

10. The most severe problem with this method is the complete dependence of the interpretation of B-A limits on externally determined clinical tolerance limits. .....

... but you then go on to describe an approach which uses only the 'clinical tolerance limits'. 

I'm not completely sure why such is your view, but if you feel that 'the most severe problem' with the B-A approach is it's reliance on 'clinical tolerance limits', it seems a little odd that you should be proposing an approach which only uses those limits.

Kindest Regards,
John

At 04:16 07/09/2022, Abhaya Indrayan wrote:

Thank you very much, Bruce, for reminding me about our previous discussions in this group on this method. This now is a much extended and full version of the article that possibly addresses some of the issues raised previously. I should have acknowledged that. It seems my memory is failing me and I take the responsibility.Â

~Abhaya
--
Dr Abhaya Indrayan
Personal website:Â http://indrayan.weebly.com

On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 1:36 AM Bruce Weaver <bwe...@lakeheadu.ca> wrote:

Hello Dr. Indrayan.  I don't have an ACADEMIA account, so cannot view that pre-print.  But I assume it is the same method that was discussed in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/g/medstats/c/YR-2uLLacrc/m/4ZfwV4-kBAAJ?hl=en

Is that right? 

Cheers,

Bruce

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 4:38:42 AM UTC-4 aindrayan wrote:

Preprint, for your review.

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[Abhaya Indrayan]

Thanks, John, for your input. I am trying to say that the Bland-Altman method cannot the used to assess agreement unless we know the clinical tolerance limits. These limits can be directly used without using the B-A method. Such a direct method has several positive features that I have tried to enumerate in this article. I hope this addresses your concern.

Warm regards.

~Abhaya

John

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[John Whittington]

At 16:54 08/09/2022, Abhaya Indrayan wrote:

Thanks, John, for your input. I am trying to say that the Bland-Altman method cannot the used to assess agreement unless we know the clinical tolerance limits. These limits can be directly used without using the B-A method. Such a direct method has several positive features that I have tried to enumerate in this article. I hope this addresses your concern.

Abhaya, yes, I fully understand what you are saying/proposing in the paper.  I don't really have any 'concerns', as such,but I suppose I was merely drawing your attention the fact that the language used seemed rather strange - i.e. as I said, it seems odd that you should say that the 'most severe problem' with the B-A method is its reliance on something, but then go on to propose a method using that something directly!

However, as above, the nature of your argument is clear enough once one has read the whole paper.

Kindest Regardds,
John

On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 6:15 AM John Whittington <Joh...@mediscience.co.uk > wrote:

Abhaya,

I can't remember whether this is something we discussed previously (iif so, my apologies for resurrecting it!) but ....

.... there would seem to be a conceptual anomaly/inconsistency in the way you present your case in the paper. You start by listing 11 'problems' with the B-A method, and appear to be saying that the 'most severe' of these problems is:

10. The most severe problem with this method is the complete dependence of the interpretation of B-A limits on externally determined clinical tolerance limits. .....

... but you then go on to describe an approach which uses only the 'clinical tolerance limits'. 

I'm not completely sure why such is your view, but if you feel that 'the most severe problem' with the B-A approach is it's reliance on 'clinical tolerance limits', it seems a little odd that you should be proposing an approach which only uses those limits.

Kindest Regards,

John

At 04:16 07/09/2022, Abhaya Indrayan wrote:

Thank you very much, Bruce, for reminding me about our previous discussions in this group on this method. This now is a much extended and full version of the article that possibly addresses some of the issues raised previously. I should have acknowledged that. It seems my memory is failing me and I take the responsibility.Â

~Abhaya

--

Dr Abhaya Indrayan

Personal website:Â http://indrayan.weebly.com

On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 1:36 AM Bruce Weaver <bwe...@lakeheadu.ca> wrote:

Hello Dr. Indrayan.  I don't have an ACADEMIA account, so cannot view that pre-print.  But I assume it is the same method that was discussed in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/g/medstats/c/YR-2uLLacrc/m/4ZfwV4-kBAAJ?hl=en

Is that right? 

Cheers,

Bruce

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 4:38:42 AM UTC-4 aindrayan wrote:

Preprint, for your review.

 

---

Direct use of clinical tolerance limits for assessing agreement: A robust nonparametric approach

 Â

  Â Abhaya Indrayan

2021, Preprint

30Â ViewsÂ

View PDF â–¸   Download PDF ⬇

ABSTRACT

Clinical agreement between two quantitative measurements on a group of subjects is generally assessed with the help of the Bland-Altman (B-A) limits. The interpretation regarding agreement is based on whether B-A limits are within the pre-specified clinical tolerance. Thus, clinical tolerance limits are necessary...

read more...

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Dr Abhaya Indrayan,Â

Personal website:Â http://indrayan.weebly.com

--


John

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Dr John Whittington,       Voice:    +44 (0) 1296 730225
Mediscience Services       Fax:      +44 (0) 1296 738893
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[Rakesh Biswas]

Wish this thread was a stepping stone to build an understanding around the differences in clinical and statistical significance. 

However this was mostly about counting clinical agreement but then "clinical agreement" in who's universe? 

best, 

rb 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/medstats/202209090208.28928En6081343%40mail92c50.megamailservers.eu.