Reliable out of box 3d printers

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Bert Hartmann

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Feb 8, 2016, 7:56:29 AM2/8/16
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Hey All,

I got a text from a friend looking for a 3d printer that's "reliable, relatively easy to use, comes with a warranty, and is serviceable". I recommended our 3d printer class (http://www.meetup.com/MakerBar/events/228026310/), but I think he's looking to straight buy, not build, and can pay a premium for that.

I used to recommend the makerbot, but I haven't done a good survey in a few years. Anyone have personal experience or a good source of recommendation for 3d printers that require minimal maintenance and are easy to start with?

Thanks,
Bert

Rob Nee

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Feb 8, 2016, 8:04:00 AM2/8/16
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I really like the Printebot metal simple. Inexpensive, rugged and open. There's a number of first and third party tweaks and upgrades available too. 

Rob
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Lowry, Michael

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Feb 8, 2016, 9:04:45 AM2/8/16
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+1 on printrbot simple metal. It's become a staple for the maker community. Auto leveling makes it a great thing and I often feel like my printer "just works". 

3DHubs puts out printer reviews and compiles a top printers list. It's a fairly good source of statistics and the pros/cons of each model they include. https://www.3dhubs.com/best-3d-printer-guide

Hope this helps,

-Mike


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Chris Ferreira

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Feb 8, 2016, 10:54:24 AM2/8/16
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Hey Guys, the friend Bert is talking about is me. I should also mention that this will be used for small scale commercial product development and r & d. Thanks for the info, I will take a look. I really like the MakerBot, but it's reviews are not so hot.

Part of it believe it or not is the aesthetic look of it when people come in the office. Besides being hella expensive, is it really as bad as the reviews say?



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Matt Lynch

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Feb 8, 2016, 11:01:29 AM2/8/16
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Coincidentally, I was just googling this topic last week, cause I want to get a higher-grade one than Ive got.
But I need to do some testing to see if the PLA sticks to the Smooth-on Resins that I use.

I came across this review site that appears to be updated monthly(?).  I hope its accurate....

However, I was leaning towards the Atom 2.0, a Delta printer with a 50µm (0.05mm) layer height.

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Rob Nee

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Feb 8, 2016, 11:29:56 AM2/8/16
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I have a $599 Printrbot metal simple and I used to own a $1399 makerbot mini. The metal simple is much higher quality and can be tuned like one tunes a car for better performance to get clean prints. I can't say the same for the mini. I had trouble with wobble in the z axis and due to many plastic parts it wasn't really possible to tune it. It's just not a precision printer

I think the makerbot gen 5 may be better constructed than the mini and makerbots have slightly simpler "turnkey" operation but they are expensive. If you are trying to decide if 3D printing is right for your business I would choose the cheaper unit to evaluate. 

Rob

Lowry, Michael

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Feb 8, 2016, 12:27:08 PM2/8/16
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Also to ad to what Rob is saying, the MakerBot 5th generation I have heard from operators has had nozzle issues with the smart extruder. Despite the newly released next generation of smart extruders, those haven't been tested extensively to discern wether or not the problems have been addressed or not. Also, reliability is not higher than the 4th generation. I would recommend a 4th generation but that has required even more tuning and tweaking than the Printrbot. 

I guilt the wooden PrintrBot Simple Maker's kit which has the linear bearings held on by zip ties, and I carry that thing everywhere (vibration, movement, etc) and I just pop it up and it works. It's been a very tunable and very robust solution for low cost and high reliability. 

The advantage Matt points out about the delta printer's rated high micron layer finish is notable if you intend to need th at sort of precision; but if you do I would more strongly recommend the B9 Creator SLA printer or the Form 2 where resin will give you much higher resolution for much less fuss. Achieving that resolution with FDM is possible with most extrusion printers if you tune them right, but it makes prints Dramatically slower, and also introduces a higher number of failed prints (lower yield). Delta types also can be better at circles and less good at rectangular shapes, and vice versa where there's more accuracy with regular polygons on a gantry than with circular shapes (These differences are minor nuances but it's observable). 

If you have money to spend, and want a 'it just works, every time" pro-sumer level product, check out the Stratasys Mojo. (http://www.amazon.com/Mojo-Professional-Printer-Starter-Package/dp/B00T8O7C50) This $6,000 starter kit gets you going into professional true FDM technology in a desktop package made by the guys who created it in the first place. I think in 6 months or a year of operating the printer, I've had one failed print (and it was a cartridge issue not an issue with the machine). This has higher operating cost and has a bit higher up front cost, but you get that value by never having to worry about if the print is going to 'work' or not. The printer also has the dissolve away supports that give a really professional finish. It's a bit slower than some consumer grade printers in terms of speed, and the software leaves much to be desired, but it does also fit your description as a professional level printer. Also the build volume is only 5" x 5" x 5" (But printrbot is not much bigger. Stratasys estimated from their uPrint users that 80% of all builds on the uPrint, the next model up at $20,000 could fit in the 5 x 5 x 5). However, accuracy on the parts matched up to the drawing I have found in practice to be rather good. 

Just some food for thought and hope this helps. It's a good thing to get into and as recommended it may be wise to start with a consumer level PrintrBot or similar and then when you are ready and can justify the cost, upgrade to something of a higher order. 

Thanks also to all who have given input. Keep it coming, this is a good discussion to keep having as printing technology continues to constantly evolve. 

-M-

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Matt Lynch

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Feb 8, 2016, 12:55:07 PM2/8/16
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Since Ill probably be printing up a bunch of stuff with hard 90deg corners, the accuracy of a Delta is a grave concern.
Im looking for precision but also large size, which is why I was recently using Shapeways to print it for me, but this is running into other issues with the Smooth-on Resins.

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Lowry, Michael

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Feb 8, 2016, 1:51:58 PM2/8/16
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Matt, every printer will have it's accuracy limits, and those effects can be mitigated with any well calibrated printer. 

Hard sharp 90 degree corners are generally difficult ish for FDM but they are all capable of achieving those types of features. 

What issues are you having with the smooth on casting resins? are you molding from these 3D printed parts?

-M- 

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Matt Lynch

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Feb 8, 2016, 2:22:36 PM2/8/16
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Right, it can all be mitigated with enough time & effort.

I was in the process of trying to cast stuff from Negative molds.
So I print out a Negative mold and cast resin into that.
Various attempts of creating the Negative molds had failed, so I tried out Shapeways printing service
It came out exactly as I needed, but their "smooth" plastic isnt smooth enough and the Smooth-On 325(?) adheres very well to the plastic.
Their release agent doesnt work well enough and I even went as far as trying mineral oil & cooking oils.
Im currently waiting for Acrylic spray (from Krylon) and liquid Teflon (official stuff from DuPont) to coat/dry on some PLA to see if that will prevent adhering.
If that works, then Ill probably pick up a new 3D printer, cause Shapeways isnt exactly the cheapest thing out there....


matt

PS. Ive even considered looking into getting the parts milled out of Aluminum or Steel, but this introduces other issues (cost, conversion from Blender, etc).
PSS. Casting Molds from a printed Positive reduced the accuracy & detail of the final objects.


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Lowry, Michael

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Feb 8, 2016, 4:03:31 PM2/8/16
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Hey Matt,

Depending on what shape you are trying, I would also play with your mold design more because perhaps it's easier to release from a mold with more pieces or if you adjust draft angles and parting lines. What does your shape look like and where did you plan your parting line?

I was able to make a simple two part mold for a casting project I was using and it released well with the Ease Release 200 spray (http://www.smooth-on.com/Release-Agents-and/c9_1123_1226/index.html). I used the smoothcast 300 series stuff with a PLA mold. I had to wait also for the resin to cool before it shrank and popped out more easily, and I also had a fairly easy shape to put a parting line on. 

Additionally, you could look at silicone rubber molds made over a 3D printed positive where you do a layer of Brush On silicone like Rebound 25 (http://www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubber-an/c2_1115_1132/index.html) where it's super soft and high detail capturing and then add a more rigid higher durometer silicone to fill the mold halves like MoldMax 30. The point here is rubber molds will be much more pliable and easy to release the cast parts than the rigid PLA or ABS from a 3D printer. Also, it would be imperative to create mold indicies to put the two halves back together properly and it would be advisable to do the casting in some sort of mother mold with rubber such that it holds the halves together nicely. But I've gotten good results with it. We did molds of human bones from CT and MRI scan this way, and it came out really well. There were still some print likes on it like the original but the features came out really nicely. (You can always sand and polish the original by hand or acetone vapor with ABS and smooth it, or print it once on Shapeways with super high def SLA and use that to make the mold). 

I'd be happy to take a quick look at what you're trying to accomplish offline. I don't have a lot of time to get super involved but I may be able to at least point you in the right direction. You can email me directly at mt...@njit.edu. 

Best,

-Mike

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Matt Clemente

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Feb 8, 2016, 4:56:41 PM2/8/16
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If you can really pay a premium and are using it for a commercial purposes try and find a used strasys dimension elite. Get it back on maintenance. I know cimquest were the guys in my area that did this and you'll never worry ever again. Material is more expensive and all that but what a machine.

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Andrew

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Feb 8, 2016, 5:47:14 PM2/8/16
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Yeah, that's a multi-thousand dollar solution, but it's amazing the quality that a Stratasys Elite will turn out. You could also contact Cimquest about getting your molds printed by them-they have a printing service. They can even print in nylon, if you wanted to try that out. 

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Matt Clemente

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Feb 8, 2016, 5:48:30 PM2/8/16
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If you get Tom farnan as your sales rep you're in luck. 4 words out of that guys mouth and I loved him

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Yair Silbermintz

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Feb 8, 2016, 6:32:03 PM2/8/16
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I still haven't had a chance to really get up to speed on 3d printing, but I'm curious what you guys think of the Form 2. Tested recently was pretty positive about it, which I found interesting because they were much more negative about the Form 1 than most of the reporting I saw

http://www.tested.com/tech/3d-printing/562428-tested-form-2-sla-desktop-3d-printer/



     -Yair

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Andrew

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Feb 8, 2016, 7:47:27 PM2/8/16
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From what I've seen, the Form 2 is a great little machine. I've seen what it prints at Makerfair, and the results were pretty good. They addressed some issues the Form 1 had and have continued to improve the resin. However, the B9 Creator still has it beat for fine detail. Also, as of 2 years ago the B9 finished product had a somewhat better feel to it. My 2 cents. 

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Lowry, Michael

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Feb 9, 2016, 8:01:38 AM2/9/16
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There's a meetup in Brooklyn coming up you could go check it out for the Form 2



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Chris Ferreira

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Feb 9, 2016, 11:40:17 AM2/9/16
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I'd love to go, but I'm working in Florida. If anyone goes, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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FlopSuey Studios

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Feb 9, 2016, 5:40:11 PM2/9/16
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late to the conversation, but a quick note... i work with 3 ex-MakerBotters and they said stay far away from the 5th gen machines.

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eric nadler

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Apr 21, 2016, 1:19:08 PM4/21/16
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hey Chris...

Perhaps you already found a solution... but if not, we sell 3D printers
- the WASP Delta printers (these are not cheap... ~$5K and up... possibly a bit less for friends of MakerBar :-)
- MakerBot x2 clones (dual extruder)... these are clones of the most recent gen of MakerBot clones that actually work... not 5th gen!)

We can offer a maintenance plan for these machines, and an upgrade path as well, if you're looking for those things.

Let me know if you are interested: eric (at) jcfablab (dot) com

thx!
Eric N.


     -Yair

Hope this helps,

-Mike

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