[MAGICK] Process or Product?

[neti...@onewest.net]

In ceremonial magick which is more important, designing and/or studying a
ritual or performing it? Would a person benefit more from figuring the
numerology, understanding the importance of the symbolism, setting up the
temple just so, and researching all the names, scents, and colors but
never actually performing the rite? Or would a person benefit more from
performing a ritual without any understanding of it's subtlies, to have
all the incantations in a language you know nothing about, to be clue-less
as to why the robe be one color and the alter cloth another, to perform
the rite only knowing the general intent of it's author?

[Steve Handy]

to me all ceremonial magic is is the art of getting
you in the right frame of mind to perform the act of
magic itself. Meditation beore hand works just as well
providing you do the actual majic invocation properly.
Steve.

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[neti...@onewest.net]

>
> to me all ceremonial magic is is the art of getting
> you in the right frame of mind to perform the act of
> magic itself. Meditation beore hand works just as well
> providing you do the actual majic invocation properly.
> Steve.
>

Could the adept eventualy replace the incantation with just meditation?
Is the incantation itself magical or do we make it magical?

[Steve Handy]

the adept can get to the point where thinking alone is
all that is needed to perform magic. Steve.

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[neti...@onewest.net]

>
> the adept can get to the point where thinking alone is
> all that is needed to perform magic. Steve.
>

Does this mean that the ceremony itself is nothing more than self deceit?
A trick of the mind on our own minds? Or perhaps they are a crutch, a
wheelchair to take strolls in while we await our wings? Can they be both
and more?

[Steve Handy]

No it is not deceit. The ceremony is the method
used/needed to get you in the state of mind need to
perform magic if you have no idea what you are doing.
Go read Franz Bardons book Initiation into Hermetics.
Studie this for years then you might be ready for what
i can teach. Regards STeve.

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[neti...@onewest.net]

> Go read Franz Bardons book Initiation into Hermetics.
> Studie this for years then you might be ready for what
> i can teach. Regards STeve.
>

I've taken four initiations with the O.T.O. over the course of several
years. This gives me the "official" title of "Master Magician" in O.T.O.
land. I personally do not like this title. A master is finished. I
really like the title "student" or "practitioner", since I am far from
done. I love to ask questions. Here are some more...

Does mixing traditions help the student discover core teachings or does it
hold the student back from understanding the essence of any teachings?

Is comparative mythology itself a valid system for self discovery? Can it
be it's own religion?

[Steve Handy]

these are things you need to find out for yourself.
Steve.

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[neti...@onewest.net]

>
> these are things you need to find out for yourself.
> Steve.

Yea but then we won't have a magick board. I'm just trying to get things
rolling. Perhaps Google Magick should just die.

[Steve Handy]

it is this attitude that stop me from answering your
questions. Goodbye

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[netineti]

Oh Steve...

[Jade Dragon]

cerimonial magic can be as elaborate or as simple as you want it to be.
for me it is a way of thinking as well as a path of action. there is no
one way to approach magic. there are as many paths to magic as there
are people who practice it. i feel it is both a process and a product.
it is a process that creates change in one's life, and a product of the
evolution of human thought.

[neti...@onewest.net]

Well said. It seems to me that the process is never ending and therefore
the product is our actions in everyday life. The two (magickly speaking)
can not be separated.

[Jade Dragon]

i agree. it also stands tor eason, that as such it is a process not an
event. it seems that with the current influx of people who are
searching for an alternative to mainstream religion, they are expecting
something for nothing. it just isn't so. you get out of a ritual what
you put into it. intent, faith and committment are vital to any ritual,
be it a mass at a christian church or a wiccan circle or whatever
cerimonial you are a part of.