Rocket Software buys D3

[Doug Averch]

Rocket Software buys D3 for $22 million.  Wow the dynamics of the U2 Market have finally changed!

Regards,

Doug

www.u2logic.com

"Makers of U2 tools which may soon run on D3"

[frosty]

This is the story to which Doug refers:

http://tinyurl.com/mbgv2oq

Dunno what he means by 'the dynamics of the U2 market have finally changed'

as this purchase was not for any U2 products. Care to elaborate?

[Kevin Powick]

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 18:57:32 UTC-4, Doug Averch wrote:

 

Rocket Software buys D3 for $22 million.  

Source?

--

Kevin Powick

[Tony Gravagno]

http://prn.to/16gpWIs

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[Doug Averch]

Hi Frosty:

In the "Pickland" game we convert people from D3 to U2 databases.  Conversely, people convert U2 databases to D3.  The game no longer works if they are owned by the same company.

Regards,

Doug

www.u2logic.com

[Kevin Powick]

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 19:25:02 UTC-4, frosty wrote:

This is the story to which Doug refers:

http://tinyurl.com/mbgv2oq

Wow. I wonder what the long-term strategy for Rocket will be?  Grow D3 or convert D3 clients to U2?

The report states that John Bramley, current TigerLogic D3 VP of operations, is going over to Rocket, but no mention of any TL D3 engineers.

--
Kevin Powick

[Anthony Youngman]

On 17/10/13 05:27, Kevin Powick wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 19:25:02 UTC-4, frosty wrote:
>
> This is the story to which Doug refers: http://tinyurl.com/mbgv2oq
>
>
>
> Wow. I wonder what the long-term strategy for Rocket will be? Grow
> D3 or convert D3 clients to U2?

Hopefully similar to the ?current? strategy for U2?

ie leave the basic engine underneath mostly unchanged, but as much as
possible merge the development of the superstructure. For example I get
the impression they only have one team working on BASIC for both the U2
products. Etc etc. That approach would seem to make a lot of sense.

Cheers,
Wol

[David Morris]

I've just listened to the conference call back and there was no mention of mvBase unless it was getting lumped in to the D3 pot. So, did mvBase go with D3 to Rocket or is that being hung on to prior to same elsewhere? It would seem odd if it was unless there was some desire to maintain competition in the marketplace?

Still no wiser where that leaves us mvBase shops though... 

[Brian Speirs]

Well, it wouldn't make sense for TL to retain mvBASE and mvEnterprise. The media release mostly talked about their MDMS assets - which to my mind would include the two mvX products.

But $22 million for the lot ... is that all?

Brian

[David Morris]

That was pretty much the conclusion I'd come to off-line, but it would have been nice to have been included :-)

As far as the $22M (£14.75M) it does seem a bit of a giveaway.... I said the same thing to one of my developers a few minutes ago.

[Symeon Breen]

WOW     !!

--

[George Land]

You have to realise that Tigerlogic's total revenue from everything was $12.8 million last year, on which they made a loss of $1.2 million.  It's not obvious (maybe it's buried in their earnings) who much of that is D3/Pick but it's a pretty small business these days, most of the MV market is already U2.

So it's an interesting development but it's not that big compared to what they already have.

[David Morris]

Also, what about us poor souls on mvBase? This announcement means (I
believe) that mvBase is now TL's only MV platform. I honestly can't
seem them hanging on to it having divested themselves of probably the
one with bigger market penetration (certainly judging by the number of
questions asked in the various forums). I wonder if the engineering
team that supports D3 also look after mvBase? Perhaps TL have
(eventually) big plans for mvBase?

I guess it's a case of 'watch this space' for the time being... :-(

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[MikeR]

How much did Raining Data (or whatever it was) pay for Pick Systems back in - when was it - 2000?

[Martin Phillips]

Hi David,

> Also, what about us poor souls on mvBase?

We would be very pleased to see mvBase sites migrate to QM. Many have already done it and it is not difficult. The benefits are well
worth the small effort and we can offer help with the process if needed.

Visit www.openqm.com for more information.


Martin Phillips
Ladybridge Systems Ltd
17b Coldstream Lane, Hardingstone, Northampton NN4 6DB, England
+44 (0)1604-709200

[David Morris]

Martin, it's a very kind offer and were it not for the fact that we
don't have source code for everything (SB+ for instance) I would have
jumped at the chance. As it is, I think we're stuck for the
foreseeable future.

[Martin Phillips]

Hi again David,

SB is not a problem as SB applications can be imported into the Nucleus tools from Binary Star.

If you are short of other source code, things probably aren't so easy.

Martin Phillips
Ladybridge Systems Ltd
17b Coldstream Lane, Hardingstone, Northampton NN4 6DB, England
+44 (0)1604-709200

[George Land]

If you are SB based then your better route would be U2 since that's where SB lives these days.  Whether SB will make it (back) on to D3/mvBase in the future is an interesting question, time will tell.

BTW I don't know, but you have to expect mvBase to be included in this move to Rocket.

[Steven Davies-Morris]

Glad to see that JB is going with the D3 product.

--
SDM a 21st century schizoid man in SoCal
Systems Theory website www.systemstheory.net

[Kevin King]

Rocket would be wise to port SB+ to QM.

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[jes]

We borrowed 19.3m from Rick Koe to purchase the assets of Pick Systems from the Orange County Probate Court in March, 2000.

Rick's usual scheme was to aim for a 10x return on his investment.

Instead, he got 10% after 13 years of trying.

But at least he retains the rights to Chunkit and Yolink, clear market killers with potential only he and his group understands.

Not totally clear from the post, but it appears he is keeping the Omnis assets, which leaves the future of MVDisaster, sorry, Designer in some doubt.

The questions in this thread are entirely reasonable. Why didn't the VARs get alerted? What happens to the other MV orphans at the table?

And most of all, is this acquisition just a pathway to killing the product line once and for all?

It is not  without irony that the Pick product line should end up in the first state to legalize Ganja. I'm sure Dick would approve.

JonSisk.com

jes.com

[George Land]

The press release on the Tigerlogic site talks about divesting it's  "Multidimensional Database Management Systems ("MDMS" or "D3") business to Rocket Software", I think it's reasonable to assume that it does include mvBase, it would make no sense for it not to.  

Interesting that their sales of licenses in the last year in total was $3.8 million and some of that will be non-D3, the remaining $8.9million was services.

[Martin Phillips]

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:27:13 AM UTC+1, Kevin Powick wrote:

 

Wow. I wonder what the long-term strategy for Rocket will be?  Grow D3 or convert D3 clients to U2?

 

---

 

If the intention is to abandon D3 and move users to U2, the case for migration to QM is a no brainer. The migration effort would be broadly similar but the total cost of ownership of the database would be massively reduced.

 

We wait to see how all this unfolds.

 

 

Martin Phillips, Ladybridge Systems Ltd

[George Land]

So speaks an unbiased, independent observer...

Or did you forget to put AD on your posting Martin? I thought that shameless promotion of your own product wasn't what a group like this is about.

[John Bramley]

To clarify, the TigerLogic Definitive Agreement includes D3, mvBase, mvEnterprise and the Pick connectivity products. The Pick sales, engineering and support teams will be going to Rocket. We will continue to enhance and support these products with the same personnel and with the same level of commitment. Both TigerLogic and Rocket are working together to make this a very smooth transition. Very big win for our D3, mvBase and mvEnterprise customers, the TigerLogic Multi-Value team and the overall Multi-Value community. 

I appreciate the positive comments regarding my involvement in the future of the TigerLogic Multi-Value products moving to Rocket as a part of this agreement.

Just think of the possibilities!! I'm excited to be involved.

John Bramley

VP, Product Development & Operations

TigerLogic Corporation

[Symeon Breen]

Not exactly independent yourself either tho are you George ....

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From: mvd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mvd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

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[George Land]

Did I say I was?  I'm Chairman of the UK U2 Distributor.

There are lots of reasons why people may choose one database over another, to some it's purely about cost, to others it's about functionality, to others it's about... the list is endless.  The mix of what you need determines the product that's best for you, it is likely that no one product is the best for everyone. 

[jes]

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 2:29:50 PM UTC-4, John Bramley wrote:

To clarify, the TigerLogic Definitive Agreement includes D3, mvBase, mvEnterprise and the Pick connectivity products. The Pick sales, engineering and support teams will be going to Rocket. We will continue to enhance and support these products with the same personnel and with the same level of commitment. Both TigerLogic and Rocket are working together to make this a very smooth transition. Very big win for our D3, mvBase and mvEnterprise customers, the TigerLogic Multi-Value team and the overall Multi-Value community. 

I appreciate the positive comments regarding my involvement in the future of the TigerLogic Multi-Value products moving to Rocket as a part of this agreement.

Just think of the possibilities!! I'm excited to be involved.

John Bramley

VP, Product Development & Operations

TigerLogic Corporation

Let me be the first to congratulate you on peeling the Pick code assets off 

from a company who never appeared to appreciate them. Call it Raining Logic.

It will be interesting to see all three under the same roof and I for one wish 

you and Rocket great luck and success in keeping The Three Stages alive.

All the best,

JonSisk.com

jes.com

[Tim Kendall]

All the Tigerlogic MVDB's are going to Rocket (MvBase, MvEnterprize, and D3) I have been told.

Tim

[Jan Van Schalkwyk]

Awesome!!

[Dick Thiot]

Jon,

I agree!  However, it is kind of interesting that the closest thing to the original Pick company is now not in the market any longer.

Dick

--

[jes]

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 3:46:34 PM UTC-4, Tim Kendall wrote:

All the Tigerlogic MVDB's are going to Rocket (MvBase, MvEnterprize, and D3) I have been told.

What do we euphemistically call the collective lot now?

U3 ?

U2 & P ?

PU2 ?

j.

[Dick Thiot]

U2DM - Universe, Unidata, D3 and mvBASE.  

UP2 - This might be my favorite.

UP^2 - that's the best that I can do to represent squared

U2P2

Was TL phasing out mvEnterprise?

[Steven Davies-Morris]

On 10/17/2013 12:46 PM, Tim Kendall wrote:
> All the Tigerlogic MVDB's are going to Rocket (MvBase, MvEnterprize, and
> D3) I have been told.
>
> Tim

Good to have that clarified.

[Steven Davies-Morris]

On 10/17/2013 11:29 AM, John Bramley wrote:
> To clarify, the TigerLogic Definitive Agreement includes D3, mvBase,
> mvEnterprise and the Pick connectivity products. The Pick sales,
> engineering and support teams will be going to Rocket. We will continue
> to enhance and support these products with the same personnel and with
> the same level of commitment. Both TigerLogic and Rocket are working
> together to make this a very smooth transition. Very big win for our D3,
> mvBase and mvEnterprise customers, the TigerLogic Multi-Value team and
> the overall Multi-Value community.
>
> I appreciate the positive comments regarding my involvement in the
> future of the TigerLogic Multi-Value products moving to Rocket as a part
> of this agreement.
>
> Just think of the possibilities!! I'm excited to be involved.
>
> John Bramley
>
> VP, Product Development & Operations
>
> TigerLogic Corporation

Glad to see that you are going with the products, JB. As someone with
more than a passing interest in my small D3 user-base, the fact that you
are involved means a lot. Were you not, I'd have serious concerns about
the products' viability.

[Ed Clark]

I just always get a laugh that umbrella-name "U2" long survived the product that is was mocking "O2"

[David Knight]

Wow, that made me spill my coffee!

Initial reaction: shock!

Second reaction: fear.

Took some time and thought about it, and remembered the U2 experience when sold to Rocket; and even though I do not use U2, I would say that is mostly positive. Maybe the U2-ers here can comment better?

So, I guess now many of us are now all "in the same bed"; this will be a game changer; and overall most likely yo be positive. Can't see Rocket paying $22m to kill something; the market was too fragmented anyway; so my suggestion is to treat this positively & as a great opportunity to get this obviously superior database technology [I'm talking mv - concept; not any particular flavour] into the global marketplace.

Need a fresh cup of coffee!

Cheers!

[Saralinda Christopher-Evans]

I'm hoping for more marketing for PICK / MultiValue as a whole to the world out there.

---

From: mvd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mvd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Knight
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:08 PM

To: mvd...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [mvdbms] Re: Rocket Software buys D3

--

[Ross Ferris]

I don't think so! That is why SB was taken away from U2 products in the first place, so I see zero commercials reasons for them to do so

[Ross Ferris]

John,

 

Does this also include the XDMS "product" ?

[Ross Ferris]

I suspect that YOU need more than coffee !!!

[David Knight]

I realise news will slowly trickle out; but the news I'm getting so far looks all positive; so now that the initial reaction is over; I'm kinda looking forward to this. Change is good!

Steady the course...

[George Land]

From what I've seen (and as a U2 Distributor I may be biased) the move of U2 to Rocket has been very positive.  After years of dealing with IBM which was, to be honest, weird we are now dealing with a much more switched on commercial company.  There has been a lot more investment in the product, the headcount of people working on it is up significantly, sales are up and there are a lot of good things going on.

As for D3 inside Rocket - I don't know much but Rocket has no track record of buying things to close them, every acquisition they have done (and there are quite a number) has been done with the intent of growing and, where the product has been 'legacy', putting new life into the software.  It would be out of character and outside their usual business plan for them to have acquired D3 without that intent.

I'm speculating here but I doubt that they will merge D3 into U2, I can imagine that we will see Rocket U2 and Rocket D3 as two product sets moving forwards.  Although the databases have similarities from a technical perspective the architectures are quite different.  Whilst with UniVerse and UniData there is now a lot of shared development I'd be surprised if the same applies for D3 at the database level, but of course you have to speculate that we will see the U2 tools become supported on D3 at some stage reasonably soon plus, perhaps, other Rocket brands (CorVu, Aldon, Legasuite, Netcure et al) as has happened with U2.

So it will be interesting to see what happens, but TigerLogic did appear to be on a path to nowhere making losses year on year, it always looked like it was only a matter of time before they ran out of cash.  Rocket is a much more stable custodian of the software, far more likely to give it life going forwards, but we will all have to see what happens as the details emerge.

All written, of course, from the perspective of being one of the international U2 Distributors so inherently biased towards U2.

[David Knight]

That's pretty much my take at this stage... I think it will be good news... 

[Simon Verona]

I'm not a U2 or D3 user (jBase here), but I would venture to suggest that no matter what strategy Rocket take with D3, it can only be good news.

 

Multi-value has been a shrinking and increasingly fragmented market-place over the past years (maybe 20!). The underlying problem is that whilst relational has been marketed in it's own right, the Multi-value companies are largely only marketing their own products to those already converted to MV.

 

By having a much larger share of the marketplace, Rocket is possibly in a unique position to spend real marketing money promoting the values of multi-value generically rather than the individual products.   This marketing would be more attractive to the non-MV community.    Currently, all that appears to be happening is that any growth in MV is caused by existing VARS selling applications with MV at the core.

 

As to Rockets overall strategy, I would suspect that long-term, they will need to concentrate onward development of only a couple of the products they own, slowly migrating the user base from the others.  Fragmenting the development and support costs over so many products is not cost-effective.  Apart from the cash-cow of ongoing support, I can't see any long-term strategy benefit of onward development of all the products they now own.

 

Just my Friday morning thoughts...

 

Simon

 

Simon 

[Terri Hale]

Hi John:

 

I am glad to hear that you are going with the goods. 

Congrats on keeping it alive and, hopefully, the rest of us employed, a bit longer.

T

[Terri Hale]

Where's the 'like' button?

[Dawn Wolthuis]

I think this is very good news for the MV space. I think Reality should be next. I suspect Martin has no plans, and QM is good for the space. I would like to see Revelation with QM or maybe pulled into the Rocket umbrella too. What do you think? jBASE?

I wish Cache' had better traction. Maybe they will be seen a good large alternative to Rocket. They have some exceptional, truly exceptional features including many related to performance, scalability, reliability, etc. There are pros and cons to running on the Cache database engine. One con for me was the OO version of the mumps language (cache' objectscript). I never grooved with it, but I was able to avoid it for the most part. I would still be using Cache except for my abrupt career change.

If I were to guess, I suspect this will be a good move for D3 customers. Rocket at least cares about MV.  --dawn 

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Doug Averch <dav...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rocket Software buys D3 for $22 million.  Wow the dynamics of the U2 Market have finally changed!

Regards,

Doug

www.u2logic.com

"Makers of U2 tools which may soon run on D3"

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Take and give some delight today

[Charlie Noah]

If D3 was to be sold, I can't think of a better fit than Rocket. They have a genuine commitment to MV, and are in it for the long haul. Although they are global in reach, Rocket is a US company, and that's a good thing. I learned recently that controlling interest in one of our local craft breweries, Boulevard, is being sold to a Belgian company. I guess it's all about the Benjamins RIP, Boulevard beer! :'(

Although my platform of choice is jBASE, I have always liked Universe. I run my jBASE in Universe emulation, and there's very little I can't do with it. Of course, it is owned by a Swiss company now.

My apologies to all my non-US MV friends (there are many), I just hate to see US companies sold out of the country.

Charlie

[Simon Verona]

Charlie

Not sure if you meant to infer that jbase was an American company sold to the Swiss..

JBase was designed and built in the UK by British company, so I guess we've lost an asset to the Swiss....

Having said that I've no idea whether MPower (who own the marketing rights to jbase outside of Temenos) are British, American or otherwise!

These days it's hard to work out where companies are based! You certainly can't tell by where they pay tax (I believe that Apple seems to pay no tax pretty much everywhere!)

Nevertheless, I agree with the original comment that Rocket will do far better with Tiger logics assets than TL ever managed.

Regards
Simon

[George Land]

I think we can safely say that MPower are British, as are EDP with UniWare, Northgate with Reality and Martin/Ladybridge with QM.

[David Peters]

Hi

To follow up on Simon's comments. The core of jBASE development is still done in the UK at Hemel Hempstead just down the street from where it all started. In fact several of the key guys are there moving forward jBASE year on year. Ownership as said is Temenos who are a Swiss company.

We at MPower1 have the rights outside the Temenos T24 banking operation to market and fully support the product. MPower1 is a UK based company. We therefore offer a clear alternative to Rocket's offerings.

While typing this I see George's comment and he is quite right that now with Northgate, Ladybridge and jBASE developments all UK based there are two clear power bases for MV products and its still UK versus the USA!

Regards

David Peters

[Charlie Noah]

Simon is right, of course. I just think of my VAR here in the US whenever I think jBASE. They are great folks (Ashwood Computer in Ohio)!

Actually, I see US/UK/Australia/NZ/etc. as a friendly rivalry, and it's us against the rest of the world. :-)

Charlie

[Dawn Wolthuis]

UniVision is UniWare now? Does someone market and sell it?  --dawn

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[Rob Allen]

I think "UniWare" was just a typo. UniVision seems to still be available:

UK: http://www.edp.co.uk/solutions/univision.htm

US: http://www.viasystemsinc.com/external/univision.htm

[George Land]

Sorry, no, there is a U2 software company in Melbourne that we work with called UniWare and I was talking about them moments before typing that.  It is UniVision 

[Rob Allen]

Apparently the Via page is a cobwebsite. Clicking the 'Home' link gives you a message that Via has "ceased trading" and directs you to the edp.co.uk site for UniVision and ViaDuct.

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thumbs up, got it. Thanks Rob and George. I like to be at least a little aware of these things. It is good to see that UniVision is still being marketed. Does anyone know any live customers other than EDP?  --dawn

[JJCSR]

Dawn:

 

Just out of curiosity, what, exactly, do you mean, "I think Reality should be next"?

 

Jim Cronin

Kittery Trading Post

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Just musing about consolidating the three streams on the MV Family Tree poster http://www.tincat-group.com/mv/MVFamilyTreeColor.pdf  One was R83 PICK, another Microdata Reality, and the third PI->U2. You can see that for a new version of this poster, we would need to show how the first stream was just bought out by the third. 

Someone else suggested that there could be a UK group with Reality, jBASE, UniVision, and OpenQM to make sure there is a competition with Rocket. These are just hypotheticals in thinking about the future of MV, nothing more.

cheers!  --dawn

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[jes]

On Monday, November 4, 2013 5:51:55 PM UTC-5, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

 

Someone else suggested that there could be a UK group with Reality, jBASE, UniVision, and OpenQM to make sure there is a competition with Rocket. These are just hypotheticals in thinking about the future of MV, nothing more.

Perhaps you could call it UK du JOUR.

jonsisk.com

jes.com