Fwd: Stop the Modi-fication of India

[Shally Verma]

how many of us support this?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Emma Ruby-Sachs - Avaaz.org <av...@avaaz.org>
Date: Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM
Subject: Stop the Modi-fication of India
To: "shally...@gmail.com" <shally...@gmail.com>

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Dear friends across India,

This weekend, the BJPs political alliance with the Janata Dal (United) might end over Modi, the tainted overseer of a massacre of Muslims, but they're being lobbied hard to stay. The JD(U) is meeting to make the final decision -- let's urgently ensure they make the right choice for India and tell the BJP to dump Modi:

This weekend, a crucial decision will be made on the future of India: the BJPs political alliance with the Janata Dal (United) might end over Modi -- the tainted overseer of a massacre of Muslims -- and his appointment as campaign chief.

Right now, Modi is the likely PM choice for the BJP, securing a victory for the most extreme elements of the party and putting a man who watched over the murder of hundreds of Indians in broad daylight, into power. The JD(U) can draw a line in the sand and declare they will break with Modi's party, but they're being lobbied hard to stay. We can ensure they make the right choice for India and tell the BJP to dump Modi.

The Janata Dal (United) is meeting to make that decision. Let's urgently drown out the BJP's call and help the JD(U) split from Modi's bloody past for good. Click below to send your message directly to the JD(U):

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/jdu_dump_modi_sam/?bTNnGab&v=25909

The Avaaz community has always stood up for integrity in public office, from fighting against corrupt politicians in India to targeting those accused of rape and holding high office. Let’s come together again and forge a fair and safe future for India.

With hope,

Emma, Oli, Alaphia, Ricken, Dalia, Michelle and the rest of the Avaaz team

PS - Many Avaaz campaigns are started by members of our community! Start yours now and win on any issue - local, national or global: http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/start_a_petition/?bgMYedb&v=23917


More information:

BJP-JD(U) 18-year alliance 'most likely' to end over the weekend: Reports (DNA):
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1847868/report-bjp-jdu-18-year-alliance-most-likely-to-end-over-the-weekend-reports

JD(U) set to snap ties with BJP; Mamata calls Nitish Kumar, Naveen Patnaik (Times of India):
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/JDU-set-to-snap-ties-with-BJP-Mamata-calls-Nitish-Kumar-Naveen-Patnaik/articleshow/20560210.cms

Modi fallout: BJP-JD(U) split to take place in next few days (Times of India):
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Modi-fallout-BJP-JDU-split-to-take-place-in-next-few-days/articleshow/20563588.cms

10 signs that it's over between Janata Dal (United) and BJP in Bihar (NDTV):
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cheat-sheet/10-signs-that-it-s-over-between-janata-dal-united-and-bjp-in-bihar-378770

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[R Kulsari]

Thanks Shally, At least someone is not supporting Modi. I feel really sad for BJP. It was an easy win for BJP but they still want to use the MOdi card due to RSS and pressure from workers who wants to win at any cost. Even in my office a drastically high percentage of people are favoring Modi. Everyone knows that he was the main culprit and still wants to ignore it by putting the growth achieved in Gujrat ahead of the known taint. It will be shame if he becomes PM. I want to vote for BJP too but certainly not for Namo.

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[Shally Verma]

Hey Ravinder.. u misunderstood me. For ur dismay, I am also favoring MODI and reason for that I need change from UPA. And I see Modi as potential candidate ..as a matter of fact I dont like candidates like Advani. We dont have any proofs of whether he actually did those riots.. its only word of mouth that has gotten spread .. and if it comes to riots I see that every party has done that for their favors.So playing on that cards, why to let Congress rule us and eat us...!

[R Kulsari]

ha ha...Guys, I am really used to these mentioned justifications.I think Congress should let Jagdish and Sajjan Kumar contest against him. Seems like its a land slide victory for Modi in urban area....Ravi

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Everyone knows that he was the main culprit and still wants to ignore it

Looks like it is widely assumed that Modi is The Clprit...

I tried to dig in this a lot, but I never understood how come this has become a general idea!!!

If you actually see the data, even much larger riots happened before and also after Gujarat in non-BJP/Modi ruled states, where casualties were much more, but no where this much media trial is done against the state chief. If you take an exception of 2002 (they were first riots after big time emergence of Private 24x7 paid media), there are "ZERO" riots in Gujarat after that, and due to absence of Vote Bank politics (which influences policies -- like free laptop, food, and minority reservations etc), Gujarat enjoyed focused development which is being enjoyed equally by people of all communities and casts.

The only reason of such focused defamation of Modi is, the deeply rooted grip on Indian Media and strong Corporate and Criminal partnership of Congress.

Why Modi is favorite of every body today, because he has guts to say truth. He don't have to throw free laptop, food, reservation, donation to terrorist family, nothing.... against all the odds being incorruptible (as mentioned in one of the wikkileaks cable) he is working for development to answer the paid Media.... India needs such leaders to change the politics from it's roots...

One more thing, there can be better people or leaders then him, but presently (in fact in last couple of decades), he is the best choice that India has... so let's not hesitate to accept this change.

--
Most people are only alive because it is illegal to shoot them.

[R Kulsari]

Agree mate!!!Its all about facts and numbers, 272 is the magic number. I truly respect your opinion., but as per media and interacting with friends who support Modi, we have no leader other than Modi (Mr 2002), Advani (culprit for 1991) and Rahul (who has not done anything yet, baby).Can we look beyond them? 

BJP has got 200% chance of winning the election as people want change from UPA and rightly so. Believe me at the end, to reach to 272 figure, BJP will replace Modi with someone else at last moment. However, to NaMo supporters, best of luck.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Since facts comes across quite often so no wonder if somebody gets used to it :-), but is there a valid counter argument too?

> Seems like its a land slide victory for Modi in urban area....

precisely a land slide victory for Modi in Educated middle and upper middle class. For rest other equations (like religion, cast etc) will play the main role..... (IMO)

[Subodh Sharma]

I don't
If India can give another chance to Congress why not Modi
We have to move on as we have moved on with so many things equally bad things.

Cheers
Subodh

[umesh]

Good discussion that should go on for long..would help us to clarify lots of news/facts :)
Btw, in case someone wants to join barclays, pune.
Let me know.

Rgds,
Umesh

Message maybe not properly formatted as composed on BlackBerry® from Vodafone

---

From: Subodh Sharma <isu...@gmail.com>

Sender: mscm...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:57:18 +0530

To: Shally Verma<shally...@gmail.com>

Cc: BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt<MSCM...@googlegroups.com>; Makarand Pawagi<makaran...@gmail.com>; Vijay Kanojia<vijay....@amdocs.com>; Vipin Sharma<sh.v...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [MSCM2007] Fwd: Stop the Modi-fication of India

[Shally Verma]

Atleast I am happy to see there's no Congress follower here. I atleast do not want UPA anymore (not to mention reason why). I am all for Arvind Kejriwal ..seeing his party agendas but my only worry pt is Is he and his party mature and experienced enough to deal with hell many issues surrounding India?? which begins from dealing with reservations policies, maintaing castes,religions to our growth ... also being a woman will pt to need to have strong law n orderto make society safer for us. Thus, IMO i want AAP to be in politics and grow up little more. probably in next election I would like to give them a chance. But for the current scenario, where I find India in a great mess and chaos.. I need change and we have no option than NaMo for the reasons he is known for.. being a strong man in implementing his belief... Though ppl claim him very communal.. and against muslims.. but then I wonder had he been so.. than in gujrat no muslims would have survived .. so he deserves a chance. But I still want ppl to continue this discussion as I want to look at this issue from every perspective as mine is National interest...and want to know whats in the best interest of india .. for every community who's living in india.. 

[Ruchika Chaddha]

I am pro BJP too and want NaMo to be the next PM. I think it is the anti NaMo brigade(including some section of media) who is projecting him in bad light and anti muslim. Please read this article to know that Muslims dont hate him and still go out to vote for him.

 

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/why-this-muslim-majority-town-in-gujarat-voted-for-narendra-modi-s-bjp-330383

[Shally Verma]

More so of interest to me how come International activits is jumping into this protest and changing ppl's mind across globe to vote against Na Mo. Avaaz is a community which i believed to be very genuine and based on facts. But I was really alarmed to see they are also influencing indian people decision by starting this petition. What can be the reason behind it? I wonder!

[Shally Verma]

For AAP, we can keep my vote aside.. as I said I am all for it .. but only worry pt is "If they are mature enough to deal with messy issues of India".

Now come to NaMo... can anyone explain me ... what are the disadvantages India would face .. if he becomes a PM... ??

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Difference between US and other countries is that no matter what happens, people of US chose RIGHT OVER WRONG.  Chosing RIGHT over WRONG works like compound interest. It gives huge benefits in LONG RUN . US economy is growing only for ~2% for last 100 years. But maintaining that growth for 100 years itself is a big challenge and requires chosing right people like { Lincoln, Rosevelt, Franklin }. You have to make it a habit to chose RIGHT always. You cann't be fooled by the surname of son of Lincoln and make him president. 

At the same time, we have to be away from "hype" also. Modi is good administrator but if we have give him a category of RIGHT or WRONG, can we call him RIGHT ?? I doubt and I doubt for following reasons. 

1) Media is spreading that Arvind is Mahatvakankhsi ( opportunist + selfish ) . I believe it applies more to NaMO. Arvind was the main driving force behind Anna's janlokpal bill revolution. But he always put Annaji ahead of him. On the contrary NaMO is crusading Advani. I am not saying Advani is deserving or not but what I want to put light on is the character of two people.  To prove, AK was the driving force I have the following reasoning. If Anna ji alone was the reason for revolution then his 2 attempts ( after split with AK) won't have been so unsuccessful. I have a huge respect for Annaji but yes AK was the behind the scene mastermind for that revolution and that's why he has been able to replicate and build another revolution independently as well - AAP. 

2) I can expect Arvind to win election and still let an aam aadmi to become PM. I can not expect the same from NaMO. He is greedy for power. Unfortunately his greed for power is sometimes mistaken as his strength. I am not against his wish to be PM but just comparing two characters. 

3) There have been strong allegations of corruption involving NaMO govt. But obviously they won't be investigated till cong/BJP are in power. AK has been investigated with full force but still he has been able to come out clean many times not just once. 

4) Let's say NaMO is "bearable" and accept him as PM. Who all will come along with him ?  Sushma Swaraj , Rajnath Singh, Arun jaitley  ..... and most likely Mulayam Singh , amar singh through coalition.  I cannot give guarantee about coalition part, but AAP in itself will bring 100 times better people - Kumar Vishwas, Prashant Bhushan, ....... and latest "Sushma Koli" https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Fr3xTqb7Wmo

--

-vipin

[Pankaj Mittal]

Where is the mood?

If poll happen today
NaMo with BJP 220 seats
Cong with Rahul/MS 170 seats
AAP with AK 5 seats
Rest with rest148 seats

Pranab da first try
BJP+ 260 failed
Second try
Cong+ 210 failed
Third try
Rest++(Cong) 273 pass

[R Kulsari]

Lets at least not say NaMo is not communal. Let us not close our eyes. One can debate if he is presently a communal or not, as he would like to project himself secular for love of PM post.Unless BJP itself gets 200+, Modi will never be PM. However, with the support i see, it may be possible.

[R Kulsari]

You are true supporter man, allegations were asked in an interview from NaMo. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0dEhrRI1o

 On lighter note, he requested for a glass of water...

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lets at least not say NaMo is not communal. Let us not close our eyes. One can debate if he is > presently a communal or not, 

I can answer this in length, but I would expect first the allegation in length as well. can you explain in detail that why he is communal and what is communal actually?

> as he would like to project himself secular for love of PM post.

This is not true and this is what I like the most about him. He clearly says (he mentioned this in India Today Conclave's Q/A), that he want to eradicate the Vote Bank Politics from India. If somebody is asking is he working for security and development of Minority he clearly says he works for security and development of all (and all includes minority majority everybody). If Gujarat is developing, that doesn't mean that Minorities have to give Jajiya tax to government or to use roads and purchase properties they have to pay extra tax. Or to get admission in school or in hospitals they are being denied. Or they can do trade. 

Since state is growing they are also flourishing and that is the truth. If India flourish, all those things about minorities will be the things of past. And that is the change I'm looking at, and I see the guts to bring such change in only one person and that is Modi.

Today, Politicians (people like us only), are eating everything, and they are hiding their misdeeds by misguiding people regarding the petty issues of Religion, cast, reservations, Naxalism, and that will never end until and unless some Dabang Power rises to end all this.

> Unless BJP itself gets 200+, Modi will never be PM. However, with the support i see, it may be possible.

True...

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

In this post I'm seeing that people has a feeling that Modi is just a hype.

I differ. And I really recommend all of them who feel so, to watch the complete videos of Modi's speeches in SRCC, India Today Conclave etc. On Facebook follow Modi as well. Just to gather knowledge. May be it would be difficult for people who don't like him but still spend some time and effort and just go through that.. and nothing wrong in doing that as I saw the full video of Rahul Baba's speech even I know that he is fool. This habit gives a better understanding of good, bad and ugly !!

What I feel that Modi is a visionary and he has a very long political and administrative experience with a great track record (now please don't discard this because of post Godhara controversy). When talks he keep on talking in length about new and finest ideas, and how he has implemented them in Gujarat and what all can be done at national level. He never fall short of ideas while talking about them, whatever time you give him. And these are not just talks. He has shown them converting into action as well. he has clear views on Foreign (including Pakistan and Kashmir) policies, Internal Security related things, Economy, taxation, Growth models, Business, Naxalism and so on. If you will go through them in fact you will learn lot of things. Even I can explain lot of things from that but it's difficult to type every thing here.

Apart from that he is exceptionally good in PR. So this is good whats wrong in that? This is the quality a politician of his stature should posses, otherwise people who are only good in PR, will beat him easily.

He is Dabang, so that is also good as in coalition era, India needs such dabang. So was Indira Gandhi also at her time. But he believes in system and he has institutionalized system (I'm sure corporate people clearly understand how important is this) at such an extent that even if he is not focusing on Gujarat, system will keep on running smoothly. But yes to take system at that level he has to be dabang. To take control of the situation.

Also there is one more suggestion of mine, that before making an opinion that all about Modi is a hype, just have a short tour of Gujarat or if not possible just have a chat with few Gujju's, and ask them if they also feels the same.

--
Most people are only alive because it is illegal to shoot them.

[Shally Verma]

Am still looking for an answer "what are the disadvantages do we foresee if Modi be the PM" and "how much horrendous they will be when compared to what UPA does to us"

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

:-)

I'm supporter based on the logic. And I think it's the least I can do being a responsible citizen.

This video I've seen when it was aired Live on Devil's Advocate. And the fact is after telling again and again that talk about Gujarat progress rather then Riots Karan Thapar was adamant, to which Modi left. Glass of water was just to suppress anger.

There are other video's as well. I can not search as our IT policy don't allow youtube in ofc, but you can search. He dropped NDTV journalists who were trying to grill him on the same question in a chartered plane in midway :-). He stopped plane before destination itself. In another viedeo (during vivekanand shatabdi samaroh yatra) you can see his interview with Rajdeep Sardesai.

Have you digged upon the Karan Thapar and CNN IBN ever ?

I used to be a fan of Karn's Devils Advocate once. But I started hating him when I saw him lobbying for NPTC pact with Henry Kissinger Openly and Shamelessly. They are actual traitors and can go up to any extent for money.

Probably you will not be able to relate what I'm talking about here, but to understand that you have to take a deep dive in US World Diplomacy and the history of Henry Kissinger's diplomatic operations.

> You are true supporter man,

All I can say here -- You are true follower of paid Indian Media man :-)

[R Kulsari]

Shally, yes that's good question and its answer will start another argument. :) Simple answer is this guy is not secular. Its not only the ideology but his actions in 2002 had demonstrated till what level he can go. This simple fact is good enough to make him disqualify for the most prestigious post of India.  

I think we are cluttering inbox of many friends and someone soon gonna shout on us.

[Ashok Panghal]

Actions are always good than total inaction

Media will praise Modi the day he becomes the PM, media is nothing but a shop ..... You buy what you want.buy space in print,buy coverage in prime time shows , get interviews fixed. And people in power can buy it easily. no wonder people like neera radia, barkha dutt, veer sanghavi still around and making fun of journalism . very few who dare to go against the flow removed from channels and most of them are either freelancers or RTI activists now. Who does journalism for the sake of it . It's all for money and moolah. News on tv are nothing but entertainment , entertainment and entertainment .

You like it or not , its dirty picture ! So don't judge people by news, interviews. YouTube .... Go and meet real people in Gujrat what they have to say about Modi . Whatever he did , good or bad ...... No riots in Gujrat after 2002.... Look At the riots frequency  in Gujrat before 2002 .

//Ashok

Sent from my iPhone

[R Kulsari]

Ok, so , everyone is trying to say, Modi is 100% secular. He respects all the religion. Let me add condition. 

Modi respects religion where year <> 2002. Since, no other incident than 2002, let's trust him for the top job of India.I will rather trust his action than words. His sins of conspiring to kill innocent people, can not be washed by his 100 good actions.

(Okay, please dont brand me as traitor...)

Ravi..

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> this guy is not secular. Its not only the ideology but his actions in 2002 had demonstrated till what level he can go.

Which actions and what level this man went. Please enlighten us with elaboration...!! And let's not worry about starting a new argument. Arguments are good if being presented in friendly manner. They increase knowledge of both the parties.....

>> You buy what you want.buy space in print,buy coverage in prime time shows , get interviews fixed. And people in power can buy it easily. 

700 Cr. Bharat Nirman Ad is nothing but to buy media for election debates... :-)

PS: People who don't want to see this mail thread can feel free to mention this.

[Shally Verma]

Ravindera , Dont worry about chain of arguments and ofcourse cluttering of ppl inbox.. i think who has concern of India future will be interested to go by this conversation. Sometime back I was also in Anti-Modi brigade but why I am changed today ? I used to come with same points as u mentioned but when someone asked me few simple questions i never could find answer why we should not give anyone else a chance .!

1.Why that kar sevak boggie was set to fire?

2. Why muslims and christians are still surviving in Gujrat? 

3. Are the 2002 riots only things happened in Indian history??There are many other countless incidences of riots starting from the partition decision of India/Pak.

4.What about the Blasts that happens atleast once in a year and in 2008 frequency was Highest to my knowlege. And delhi was badly victimised and dont tell me that controlling blasts is something which is out of control of UPA govt. 

5. What abt the Mumbai attacks ..and china penetration to India.. and Manmohan singh mute reaction to everythin ?

Why Anti-Modi brigade when runs out of answers to these questions comes to same pt in 2002 he carried riots .. knowingly..! Is that the last thing where India has stopped.  recently we had blast in Hyderabad and ppl here got re-victimised including muslims too. Were not tthey Innocent people. Only people in Godhra was innocent. 2002 ke baad Godhara / Gujrat mai chorkar everywhere we hear blasts been planted and carried out. I cannot believe if govt says they were not knowing it. Intelligence and defence always have all of the information .. its sheer negligence and knowingly suppression of facts by govt. and let those ppl do whatever they want to do and such govt is named Seclar as they allow anyone and everyone in India.  Why we are ignoring all of these things?????? 

Anyways, Its not like I know BJP inside out. For me primary concern may not be BJP win but UPA loss. I , at any cost, do not want UPA to lead us anymore! I want to give anyone a chance but not UPA. And N Modi is not the only one in BJP even if he becomes PM ... then BJP is not like UPA where only Sonia rules and others act as Mute spectator.. in BJP everyone speaks and party has all minds active and so whatever be the actions that will be collaborative NOT individual. 

Atlast ! Giving chance to anyone than UPA is most important need of an hour. Reason of starting this thread is only to analyse situation. Even if someone is successful to convince to not support Modi, then also I will not vote UPA. They have ruled as enough!

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Whatever you are writing, is there any ground as well? On what grounds you are saying " His sins of conspiring to kill innocent people, can not be washed by his 100 good actions.", this I want to know in elaborated manner.

I really unable to understand on the basis of which information and research you reached to this conclusion.

>> Okay, please don't brand me as traitor...

Of course not as whatever your concern is, your understanding may be wrong but you trying to think for the well being of our country.

[Shally Verma]

And list of India issues does not end here above listed are far less than actuals. 

[gagan....@bt.com]

If the change is for good, then history , issues and everything else must take a back seat.
Thanks & Regards,
Gagan Munjal
+91-9910975558

[Shally Verma]

Need for an hour was we need Change.Good or Bad will be decided later.

[Ashok Panghal]

Can we leave Secular/non-secular, communal/non-communal discussion aside for a while because these things are good for appeasement and vote bank politics not good to solve any real life issues like Food, poverty, Jobs, basic infra, Security, corruption, law and order ............ has anyone in this country ever declared that I will only take bribe from Hindus only ...... not from Muslims, Skihs etc. Money and power does not have any color or religion. So my dear friends, sometime to bring law and order situation under control one has to take decisions beyond so called secular vs non-secular blocks and that's called RajDharam ( What mr. Atal ji said for Modi after 2002 riots)

As far as killing of innocent people is concerned no sound brain in this world would justify what has happened but history and mythology tells us numerous examples of such massacre to bring stability or change to the world. Indira Gandhi was no better than Modi ji for what she did in operation blue star in punjab and what congress did to sikh community after Indira's assassination in Delhi. But if we keep talking on these arguments/counter arguments without looking at what lies in future ........... we are no better than the political morons, representing BJP and congress, whom we observe daily on Prime time news debates with Ravish and Arnab Goswami .

Think logically and if we cann't be the change what we want , we can atleast choose the Change( changed leadership) for the sake of continuity. 

On lighter note:

can anyone answer why Sonia ji is always upset when UPA or any minister does wrong ..............but she never speak that message directly to media. Because she is never upset, its the brand image consultants working behind the scene to flash these messages on paid media to keep Sonia madam safe and above all suspicions .. :)

-Ashok

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Shally,

for me the case is other way round. I was supporting Modi for all so long and recently changed my thoughts :) :) .
Anyways, as such it is difficult to convince anyone and in fact that should not be an objective too. Objective is just to bring forward / present the facts and let everyone take his own call.  Regarding your question on disadvantages of Modi as PM, I will try to put forward my thoughts as below.

I personally like Modi for many of his qualities. He is a good administrator, can control the things ( TATA nano example), has attitude for progress ( Gujrat came back pretty well from Earthquake and Gujrat riots ) and the best thing - he is fearless and speaks what he feels from inside. He doesn't wax people / communities to gain their votes ( like Mulayam & Rahul gandhi). I want to give him his due credit for many of his such qualities

But now let's look at some of the questions/concerns that I have before supporting him. 

==> His team. The biggest concern is { BJP - Modi } is an empty set. They have outcasted good people like Yashwant sinha, Arun Shourie and Vajpayee already.  Moreover In 2012 Gujrat election itself BJP(Modi) gave ticket to MLAs with criminal background . As many as 33% of them had rape and murder charges. With this fact why should I treat Modi any different from Akhilesh Yadav. They both themselves might have clean image but with other people around , can we expect things to change ?? They haven't changed in UP for sure.

==> RTI activist death. Gujrat as of now is second from top in the list for maximum number of RTI activist deaths in India. I could not find some collaborative data for so far but I am sure Gujrata will be among top 5 states overall in last 5 years. We cann't turn our eye blind to the Haren padya murder case, Ishrat zahan murder case . Modi might not have been involed in Godhra . he might not even have promoted Godhra but I see that 8/10 times there are attempts to hide the truth. Why is this so ????? Isn't that autocratic attitude. Isn't it like Indira gandhi style of leadership. A style which will poison Jaiprakash Narain if it poses the threat. A style which will transfer Kiran Bedi to Andaman Nikobar just because she find her car for illegal parking.

==> Is it really good Governance ??? -- Safety for Women ( read governance) - In 2011 itself there have been  439 rapes in Gujrat. it is not a small number and it is in 2011. 10+ years of Modi in power. Check and compare the data @ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323374504578221011159431562.html . So the question is - Is the govt really good. Shouldn't it raise questions on his tall claims.

==>  Funding for BJP/Modi -  Why did BJP object to the election commission's decision on bringing political parties under RTI. Obviously BJP is getting money from businessman and after election it will have to favor them. Favoring business is no sin but if it happens at the cost of integrity and principles of country then it is serious threat. In Gujrat , we dream of making narmada river as beautiful as Thames river of England but then we first offer the land to builders so that they can setup a whole industry of real estate there. We first let Amitabh Bachhan make some big investments. Isn't it a bigger crime than insider trading ???? So the question is - Is Modi's governance really clean? Question is on his integrity particularly the bad money involved.

==> NaMOkpal / Lokpal / Janlokpal - Call it whatever it is . May be NaMOkpal itself, I am really not concerned about the name but it has to be effective. Recently Modi clipped the powers of Lokayukt and its selection process in Gujrat. IS that acceptable ?? What is the guarantee that after coming into the power a really effective solution to the corruption will be sought after ........ I really doubt that.

Above reasons , and many other things made me really look into the tall claims of Modi and question his honesty and integrity and I found most of them to be just over hyped. I mean it is not he didn't do any good. He did work but nothing like he has changed the things at really ground level. He just knows what gets sold and knows how to sell it ( It will require another long mail with proofs but let me know if it is needed)

I also believe that conspiracy theory of AAP cutting down BJP votes is fueled by BJP only because they are getting sidelined and harmed the most by AAP. BJP was seriously hoping to come in power this time - not because they deserve it bu because people are frustrated of UPA. And now AAP is posing a threat to their "chance" again.  I have a question to ask - "If AAP is created by Congress to cut down BJP votes then why did Congress ask media to boycott / ignore AAP? Wouldn't it be in the favor of Congress to let AAP multiply as fast as possible. "............. 

Thanks
Vipin

--

-vipin

[Shally Verma]

Ashok

whatever you said make an absolute sense to me. 

Vipin, 

Would like to come to last pt. "Rapes" .. now Rape is something which is prevalent across all india..and I am sure none of the parties including Aam Aadmi realises how heineous is it and getting more brutal day by day. That will continue to be my concern be whatever party comes in. If I try to dig the reason behind that i found as "fearlessness of people,lack of education, deteriorating mind set" as they know law n order is so weak they will get away easily. Also our constitution gives lot of scope to defend culprits like kasab/all those 6 men who were involved in 23 yrs old lady.What Modi will do in this context after comin to power that i cannot claim.. but what i believe when he'll come "probably" and "hopefully" he will focus on agenda of growth and delivering education to every door steps so that thought process of people could change and ofcourse having better law n order in place than we have currently. Also, whatever brutality has been faced by recent "known" case of 23 and 5 yrs old girl.. its my belief that atleast Modi will do someting better than Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi do and did. Now its my belief !! And to see if it convert to truth I want to give chance to them. Coz I know atleast in Sonia regime surely nothing would improve. 

Coming to ur another points  ... so far I did not say BJP is flaw less ... surely they do have their stigmas I cannot defend all of the points as I dont have data on them except Ishart Jahan .. (where on firstpost , it was clearly mentioned she was working for LeT) but is UPA any time better than them on all of those points?? ! BJP aayegi to shayad tab bhi MLAs with criminal records honge ya Lokpal fir bhi suppress kiya jayega BUT atleast better growth, developement, Law n Order hoga...as we are in such pathetic situation having a good administrator still be more help than having UPA with 12 th Pass as an next PM candidate. ! And why to worry.. we have AAP coming up we will not see anything worst than we r seeing today.. if BJP comes to power and nothing gets improve.. we have AAP as an option.. am sure AAP will be more mature to run India then. 

Now coming to AAP Vs BJP ... I doubt yr claim that BJP fuellin AAP ... I seriously do not understand how it help BJP. AAP in a sense is threat to them and Congress knows he has vote bank based on caste then why would not Cong be promoting AAP silently to distribute BJP votes??But this is only something which is perception and I may be wrong it that.  

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ashok,

I hope your advice is general and it is very welcome. But as far as the 5 questions raised are concerned , can you please clarify which one of them is secular / communal or which one is related to history.

For your convenience, Questions raised were

1) His Team credibility , 33% MLAs with rape and murder charges in 2012 election . Link given in previous mail

2) 2nd highest RTI activist death in Gujrat in 2012.

3) Source of Funding for BJP. Objection to party coming under RTI in 2013.

4) Silence over Lokpal bill and no questions raised when Sushma Swaraj cheated on Janlokpal bill. Intentions not clear particularly with own party members involved

5) Quality of governance - 479 rapes in Gujrat in 2011 - Link given in previous mail.

Also read this article - This is a 2013 article and poses some serious quetion

Thanks
Vipin

--

-vipin

[Shally Verma]

Also, AAP is worth a watch to grow.. I am all for it and will be for it the way they are proceeding.. but do they understand and able to deal with whole politics at this point is my only concern. Also, I am not very BJP Pro.. do not go by all their beliefs but I need a change atleast to let UPA know we are not fools sitting over here and that u wll play with our money, society, castes, religions and exploit us and we do not understand ur political gimmick.Unko chorkar  koi bhi aaye, AAP , BJP anyother. I have no issues. but atleast UPA needs lesson they cannot do to us anything they want.They have to be answerable for Scams and many other things they are doing to us. 

[Ashok Panghal]

Vipin

my comments were in general for whole thread, no particular relevance to your questions .... here are my views on your questions and I don't feel possessive about my views as they are prone to change based on new found information and real world examples

Declaration :I am no staunch supporter of Modi, but supporter of any positive change from status quo

1) Team credibility : as I said in one of my previous mails, there is no team ....its only one person and he drives rest of the herd ..... and to drive them he needs numbers (majority in legislature) ..... majority in this country comes with corrupt, rich , goons etc. so your analysis is right there. My personal view point -- if Modi tries to avoid them he won't get those numbers and he is not a social worker he is a politician who wants to bring some change to this country. As long as leader remains strong on his grounds, this 33% won't have much effect on his decisions. But if Modi becomes corrupt or driven by these 33% people , we will have same situation we have today .... not going below this mark I anticipate.

2) Death of RTI activists : I don't know what comes out of such statistics unless they are targeted and proved to the person in context, Mr Modi. has he killed or sponsored the killing? ..... data does not tell that. My view - RTI activists should go public immediately with whatever information they have, such incident happens when they try to sell the story or blackmail the person. If you immediately go public , less are the chances of you becoming target ..... as damage you could have done has been already done.

3) Funding : If BJP ask you for funding would you fund or donate ? No, they have to arrange it from somewhere . My view - I favor the idea of AAP where they ask common people to donate for election expenses. BJP and Congress have become so disconnected from roots of this country that they have no clue how to generate support without money and honey(daaru). I am sure initially no one wanted to be under RTI, but today we have almost all govt. dept under it. I am optimistic about political parties coming under RTI in future.

4) Lokpal : Thanks you asked this question - I am not supporter of lokpal. agencies does not help, attitude does. UNless you change the people attitude, no law can change the course. India does not live with dearth of laws .... where it failed most is in the implementation of it. CBI has powers but no intention to exercise. Look at individual examples Vinod Rai, T.N Seshon etc. who did wonders in the existing instituions ... we need people integrity not new establishments.

5) Quality of governance : again some stats ... people can argue over it for decades, some can bring more positive stats in favor.  I leave it without my opinion.

-Ashok

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Btw, What do we look in a person or political party to call it mature ??  Just curious, may be I have some facts / answers to present.

regarding, Modi with 33% criminal background MLAs. What is the guarantee giving vote to Modi will not turn out as giving vote to Akhilesh yadav in UP. ?

-vipin

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

but what i believe when he'll come "probably" and "hopefully" he will focus on agenda of growth and delivering education to every door steps so that thought process of people could change and ofcourse having better law n order in place than we have currently.

>>>>>> He couldn't do it in last 10+ years in Gujrat but now he will be able to do it for India itself 10 times more in area with more challenges .  Doesn't sound very true to me.  We have already checked him for last 10+ years and results are better but not very very different.

Why should not we try AAP which looks really promising and deserves chance on at least 3/5 grounds above 
-- RTI support ,
-- Honest team composition with background checks , if you find any candidate wrong inform them and they will remove him. Modi didn't do it.
-- Promise to bring Janlokpal in 15 days

-- Fund transparency so that you can question them if they favor any business group or person or any entity.

Just question , why not AAP which is promising and looks more credible ???

--

-vipin

--

-vipin

[R Kulsari]

Guys, it is ideological difference but Modi and Anti-Modi. Point is simple, One set like me believe Modi is not secular, he conspired & fully hearted supported the riots.Now, after that for me nothing matters. People say forget about past. But, it is like Sajjan Kumar and Jagdish tytler contesting for PM. They may but I would not like prime minister of my country to be a hindu radical. RSS+Modi will give birth to more bajrang dals. 

You guys believe Modi didnot conspire it and even if he did, it was right  or now it is past so forget it. 

So, it is different opinion. Rest growth etc, let us move Shivraj Chauhan to Gujrat and you will see same story can be achieved.So, overall it is opinion about Modi's role. 

Please note that UPA may again come back to power because of BJP's decision to field Modi. It is supposed to be cake walk for BJP in 2014. BJP is spoliling the party.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vipin,

> Moreover In 2012 Gujrat election itself BJP(Modi) gave ticket to MLAs with criminal background . As many as 33% of them had rape and murder charges. With this fact why should I treat Modi any different from Akhilesh Yadav. They both themselves might have clean image but with other people around , can we expect things to change ?? They haven't changed in UP for sure. 

No comparison here (Modi and Akhilesh), and every body has seen change in Gujrat. Having candidates of criminal background like rape, this I also oppose.

> RTI activist death. Gujrat as of now is second from top in the list for maximum number of RTI activist deaths in India. 

I'm pasting a wikki link here where there is a list of RTI activists (dead): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_RTI_activists_in_India

Total -- 155

Gujarat -- 22

Maharashtra -- 35

See the other states as well and see the facts in their full completeness.

==> Is it really good Governance ??? -- Safety for Women ( read governance) - In 2011 itself there have been  439 rapes in Gujrat. it is not a small number and it is in 2011. 10+ years of Modi in power. Check and compare the data @ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323374504578221011159431562.html . So the question is - Is the govt really good. Shouldn't it raise questions on his tall claims.

:-) Why I'm smiling is, jab kisi ki buraai batani ho to pair ka fora bhi gina diya jata hai...

If you want to talk about women seafty then just ask a girl who have staed in Delhi UP etc, and also in gujarat or maharahtra our south states. You will get the answer.

Data you are presenting, please share the sourse as well.

I'm pasting a link of a portion of report of National Crime Records Bureau, available on their website -- http://ncrb.nic.in/

http://ncrb.nic.in/cii2010/cii-2010/Chapter%205.pdf

==>  Funding for BJP/Modi.

Yes they are getting and every party is getting. And I also praise AAP way to make it public. I expect this change to come slowly as this situation is same in US as well. This capitalists control over government desirable to end, but it's too optimistic, and it can never happen.  But yes something can be done.

 

==> NaMOkpal / Lokpal / Janlokpal - Call it whatever it is . May be NaMOkpal itself, I am really not concerned about the name but it has to be effective. Recently Modi clipped the powers of Lokayukt and its selection process in Gujrat. IS that acceptable ?? What is the guarantee that after coming into the power a really effective solution to the corruption will be sought after ........ I really doubt that.

You need to also mentioned that current lokpal is ot the way IAS had proposed. Currently Center is trying to use Lokpal against state govt as Governor will have right to appoint Lokpal, and Governor is nothing but a puppet of Center. 

Also, BJP was the party who supported maximum clauses of IAC proposed Jan-Lokpal. But yes on some they also had differences. I had those details as after arvind's declaration that he will contest elections there were rounds of talks on different clauses with BJP. I have details but those are not in public domain.

> I also believe that conspiracy theory of AAP cutting down BJP votes is fueled by BJP only 

Quite possible, but people who are saying this aren't political, they are Lokpal activists only. Bet yes possibly its BJP who is doing that, it is equally possible that it is true as well. When I went in detail, circumstantial evidences are much strong to be denied. But as I said before, I still don't believe them.

AAP is no where nearer to posing a threat to any political party as if now.

I realy wish they grow, but 2014 is not for them...

In an all, what I felt while reading your article that, to oppose Modi, people are discussing nitigrities like those which you mentioned. But his achievements are much larger. he is there since 11 years and he himself say that what he has done yet that is just a start, it's far behind what he has envisioned .....

+ve approach will be to appreciate what he has done good, and give him more opportunities. I guess that is what all of us also expect in our corporate life... isn't it?

[R Kulsari]

It was around 900+ people killed across Gujrat from all communities including children and women. Yes, polls show Modi will get more votes and I can see it. :)

Ravi

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your belief looks like the belief of ancient humans who used to think that earth is flat and when Plato told that it's round church started running after him to kill him... and later world found to be round :-)

I still expects some data and facts :-)

BJP isn't run by a family. They have done their research. In fact sometime back media also floated some poll results that having Modi will improve BJP's performance, and also, parties do their separate poll and research in this regard...

[Shally Verma]

Hey Ravindera, thats yr choice to what you want to believe but again n again sticking to point 

"One set like me believe Modi is not secular, he conspired & fully hearted supported the riots.Now, after that for me nothing matters" 

Doesn't help India and Indian people like me and u. U r supposed to hate Congress equally. if you think of all innocent people then probably people like u should use Right not to vote anyone. I dont know if we can avail that or not. 

But it really lead me to frustration when I see people sticking to Godhra and Forget everything else that has happened and still happening in India. I did not say that u forget Godhra but said .. why to forget Anti-Sikh, blasts and other riots which is being carried over by Congress.Is the Godhra 1st and last to decide india fate? People like you(no offences) adamancy ,I get scared , may lead us to No where .. but only worsening india. U need to open up and accept riots has happened in every party regime. Anyways, beyond this I will not comment on Godhra anymore. If anyone still want to decide India fate just shouting at that incidence, then I would say congress has done very good job in manipulating people's mind. 

Anyways, its every one individual opinion.no offences to anyone. but i think its not wise to decide on india fate taking only godhara card at hand. atleast congress is using it so successfully.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

With that logic why congress is still ruling ?

Please go through this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India#1984_Anti-Sikh_Riots

In 1984 Anti-Sikh Riots 10,000-17,000 were burned alive or otherwise killed, Sikh people suffered massive property damage, and "at least 50,000" Sikhs became displaced 

Also see -- Since March 1990, estimates of between 300,000 to 500,000 pandits have migrated outside Kashmir^[99] due to persecution byIslamic fundamentalists in the largest case of ethnic cleansing since the partition of India.

There is so much to find if you try to.....

[Shally Verma]

And Hindu-Pro hona doesnot mean Hindu-Radical. Had they been so much then there party would have consisted of bajrang dal members only. their party consists of Muslims and Christians too.

[Shally Verma]

Just in .. on fb .... (remember godhra... but Do not Ignore these too ! thats all my Humble request from a Nationalist! ) 

And dont consider me I am getting specific all i want is betterment in society. Also, I am all for AAP and will be supporting it where ever and however  I can.
2. Gujarat has 8 Muslim majority MLA seats. 6 of them are won by BJP. Possible without Muslim support?


4. Out of the 6 major communal riots of Gujarat, Congress was in power during 1969, 87, 89, 90 and 92. Crores looted. 1000s of Muslims killed. Forget charge sheets, no FIRs also exist on records. But for 2002 riots under BJP govt, 200+ Hindus arrested and 150 serving life sentences. See the difference?

5. Those who parade 2002 riots as "anti Muslim" BJP policy, do not question 1964 Bihar, 1980 UP (Moradabad), 1969 Gujarat (Ahmedabad), 1983 Asom (Nellie), 1989 Bihar (Bhagalpur), 1993 Maharashtra (Mumbai). All these had more Muslim deaths than 2002 Gujarat. All these had Congress governments.

6. After the 1984 Sikh slaughter in Dilli, Rajiv Gandhi brushed off the death toll with "big Tree Falls" speech. Why no Human Rights group speak against that Congress leader?

7. Actor Salman Khan's father Salim asked: "Mumbai 1993 was no less violent than Gujarat 2002. Can you tell which party's CM was ruling Maharashtra then?" 

8. Gujarat's Maulana Vastanvi: "The community that benefited most from Modi's inclusive development, is that of Gujarati Muslims"

9. Maulana Mehmood Madani of Jamatul Ulema e Hind: "Compared to other states, Muslims in Gujarat are much happier"

10. Maharashtra's ex IGP SM Mushrif to Milli Gazette paper: "Today the most safe place for Muslims is Gujarat"

11. Kerala's VV Augustine, member of National Minority Commission: "Poor Muslims' economic status in Gujarat has improved the most. How can I deny that?"

12. In Sabarmati Riverfront Project, 13000 families got displaced. 68% were Muslim. But every one of them is provided apartment now. Modi did NOT discriminate.

13. Gujarat's Haj quota is 3500. But now 41000 applications already in place. Shows how Gujarati Muslims have become financially well off.

14. Muslims form less than 10% of Gujarat's population. But 18% of RTO registration of 2 wheelers are by Muslims. Their 4 wheeler registration also is higher than the population. 12% police are Muslims. 10% of Government jobs held by Muslims.

15. Finally, Gujarati Muslims are more well off financially and much safer in 2013, than EVER in their history. 

Still you call Modi anti-Muslim? 

Narendra Modi believes in "Development of all; Appeasement of none".

[Shally Verma]

Liked this article wriiten by a Muslim Visionary. I believe its worth a read

http://muslimmirror.com/eng/can-16-pc-decide-the-countrys-prime-minister/ 

[Subodh Sharma]

That's argumentative, I was asking to explore the thougts of people of Gujrat in this discussion so we have some idea why is he winning. Keep an open mind.

UPA we have seen 3g cwg coal cbi railways.  We cant close our eyes to all that. Or someone thinks that's all okie well I dont.

Sheila I am fine with her but her party itself is not proposing for PM so I cant help her. Let congress say she is great n can do good for the nation n ppl will judge her performance.

On Jun 19, 2013 10:02 PM, "Vipin Sharma" <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Subodh, 

thanks for responding but with that logic shouldn't we vote for UPA. UPA has been forming govt for 2 times there must be something good in it ...... 

Sheila Dixit is forming 3 times in Delhi ..we should continue with them .... 

isn't it ? 

vipin

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Subodh Sharma <isu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lets look from another prospective. Why is he winning three times in a row and then bypolls too?
R the ppl of Gujrat afraid of him and voting for him?
Or they find something good in him?
In what other state we have such a feat ... Delhi exception as ots more of a city.
AAP n Rahul have clean slates as they have never in responsibility.
So lets not put them in stats.
Cheers

On Jun 19, 2013 8:47 PM, "Vipin Sharma" <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ashok, 

Thanks for responding to my mail and I like the way you responded - point by point. It helps in keeping the discussion as discussion else it gets into debate". 

1) ...... As long as leader remains strong on his grounds, this 33% won't have much effect on his decisions.......

>>>>>>>>>>>> Even 2 bad people can have impact on your decision. 33% is huge number. What makes us think that Modi's situation will not be like that of Akhilesh Yadav. It is exactly same scenario. Why should we ignore. 

2) .....My view - RTI activists should go public immediately with whatever information they have, such incident happens when they try to sell the story or blackmail the person. If you immediately go public , less are the chances of you becoming target ..... 

>>>>>>> ASHOK SIR , THAT IS VERY HARSH ON RTI ACTIVISTS . I had sent you a link on interview of Sushma koli .  She is an AAP candidate but more than that an RTI activist. She has fought from ration mafia in Delhi. She has been attacked 9 times. 2 times stabbed by knife. Please see this video and request you to form a judgement only after getting fully informed. 

3) Money ...No, they have to arrange it from somewhere . My view - I favor the idea of AAP where they ask common people to donate for election expenses. 

>>>>>>>>>> And that is the root cause of corruption. I appreciate your words about the AAP's efforts and I believe "WHY SHOULD NOT WE CHOSE AN ALTERNATIVE WHICH LOOKS BETTER THAN MODI + BJP"

4) Lokpal : Thanks you asked this question - I am not supporter of lokpal. agencies does not help, attitude does. UNless you change the people attitude, no law can change the course.

>>>>>> What do you think is the reason that crime rate is much lower in US. Is it law enforcement or attitude of people. I bet if it were attitude , law enforcement won't be needed over a period of time. in any society , all kinds of people are there. No society is void of criminals. It is only the law enforcement which differs.  "Law enforcement" is the key. 

5) Quality of governance : again some stats ... people can argue over it for decades, some can bring more positive stats in favor.  I leave it without my opinion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUT THAT IS THE MAIN REASON FAVORING MODI. ISN'T IT ????? ELSE WE HAVE MANY THINGS IN FAVOR OF OTHER CANDIDATES.  SO IF WE DO NOT HAVE ANY DATA TO CLEARLY PROVE THIS, SHOULDN'T WE CALL IT HYPE????

lOOKING FOR ANSWERS. 

tHANKS

VIPIN

--

-vipin

--

-vipin

[Shally Verma]

Okay lets keep debate between AAP Vs BJP. I assume everyone in this forum believes that UPA as next govt is a MUST outcast!! 

So, I have no issues discussing and gaining more knowledge about AAP and BJP(or N Modi).

And Vipin, why I say AAP as Immature.. here's my thought

Corruption related to Money and solving that is one issue which can be cleaned but other things like India chaotic caste and religion based politics, everyday demands from communities to fight for reservations, Foreign trade and relation policies, defense from foreign attackers, LeT threats, home grown terriorists from JnK, upgrading society standards overall say socioecomic development.. and top of all .. dealing with these shrewed politicians and their startegies to outcast him... will he and his party be able to manage all this... ?? Handling and running India is not plain vanilla thing... because of too much diversity and right for everyone to speak, do riots, destroy public properties ... then every religions expectations... handling and coordinating all this a way to difficult tasks. Now Party like Congress and BJP who way too expert in understanding whole complex equations and minds of inidan ppl .. but do u think AAP understand all that... Their approach and way they are proceeding is Commendable and I want them to grow... but still I feel will they survive even if they win in 2014. Now, I do not go by the statement NaMo is nothing better. Yes he is better and doing better things than other parties. Things are better but not very different... having things better is itself a some sign of relief. 

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 5:49 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sharing a post from AAP's Facebook Page ( That is the only source of news about their efforts these days )

In the times when BJP's best candidate, Mr. Modi has to intentionally or unintentionally give tickets to 33% criminals , AAP is adopting a very different approach to select candidates. With the help of this, people like Sushma Koli who are really doing the service for the society are getting an opportunity to come forward and do even better for their area. She is an AAP candidate from Sundar Nagari, the place where she has fought Ration mafia with the help of RTI for last 5-6 years ( and has been attacked 9 times, 2 times seriously ) 

Is it something BJP cann't do ?? If yes then why BJP is not doing this. In any case, why should not I think AAP as an alternative and not give them a chance ??? I believe they are really smart and mature in making the strategy for bringing some "Real change" in society. 

=====================================================

टाइम्स ऑफ़ इंडिया:- “आप” का नया मोर्चा देगा कांग्रेस भाजपा को बराबर की टक्कर

आम आदमी पार्टी पुराने खेलों के नियम बदल रही है. दशकों से फली फूली कांग्रेस भाजपा को “आप” हर क्षेत्र में टक्कर दे रही है. उम्मीदवारों के चयन में अपनाई गयी पारदर्शिता खुद में काबिले तारीफ़ है. 100 लोगों की रजामंदी के बाद कोई भी साफ़ छवि का व्यक्ति आवेदन भर सकता है. किसी भी उम्मीदवार पर कोई मुकदमा नही होना चाहिए. ये सराहनीय कदम है. फिर उम्मीदवारों के नाम वेबसाइट डाले जाते हैं.भारत शायद ऐसा ही लोकतंत्र चाहता है. 
आर टी आई के मामले में भी जहाँ CIC के आदेश पर सभी पार्टियां बिदक गयी,वहीँ “आप”ने दो कदम बढ़कर आर टी आई के अंतर्गत आने के फैसले का स्वागत किया. 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/contributors/contributions/somu-kumar/Transparency-and-primary-elections-Indian-democracy-2-0/articleshow/20627409.cms

--

-vipin

[Rajesh Thore]

Hey guys, after these emails I also thought to jump this bandwagon.

Just want to make a point, whether any politicians is making any effort towards inclusive development?  Even us, living in Delhi/NCR areas does not have all pockets where there are pot free roads, round the clock power, clean drinking water, security, etc. 

think about rest of the country !!!!!!!!!!! Last week I read a village 60kms from Lucknow had got electricity after more than 6 decades of independence.

We are all at mercy of so called ministers.... 

Our votes / seats won't count (Delhi), but matter of fact is that these are quite important concerns, in backward region where people will vote for the buggers who will make false promises. Which is much larger vote bank.....

;)

[Subodh Sharma]

Well this turn is inevitable in a political discussion when eveyone finds his data and stats to be the rightmost.
Let agree to disagree on Bjp vs Aap.
Finally what we want is who delivers the services the citizens of India deserves.
Hopefully the ppl of India will choose the right one.

Cheers

On Jun 23, 2013 10:30 PM, "Makarand Pawagi" <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> some of the words you used, I consider them derogatory and hence I don't consider you mail worth to be responded to.

Can you point me towards them. 

PS: Those were not the words but the attitude of writing which was in response to the attitude that you used while writing. Read your mails and then think why my writing pattern changed in my last response :-)

PS, PS: Be a sport Dude :-)

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

You might have raised some valid points but some of the words you used, I consider them derogatory and hence I don't consider you mail worth to be responded to. Enjoy Life. - vipin

On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 2:56 AM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vipin,

So my question is what made you think that I'm saying that Modi is the greatest leaders on earth :-)

And, your blame on Modi for RTI activist's murder in Gujarat made me think that. 

I've given the analysed data about RTI activists death where out of 155, 20 were in Gujarat and 35 in Maharashtra. I were not saying that 20 is good, but what I was saying that no where I found AAP mentioning that, Gujarat's growth in cotton production, Gujarat's implementation of Joining the rivers and developing 337.525 kms (crosses 21 rivers) long of Micro and Macro canals, because of which Gujarat became only state where ground water level is going up instead of down and no farmer suicides, 24*7 uninterpreted electricity throughout the state including villages and exporting surplus electricity to other states. I think I don't need to mention the status of other states on those front. I'll really get tired mentioning the things that has been done in Gujarat, like creating infrastructure for getting Cotton production+Thread Manufacturing+Cloth Making+Export at single place only, so that farmers gets the best prize, making best of the infrastructure of roads, Solar Plants, Saabarmati Front etc etc.... He started working upon education for all, and what an achievement that is. Even they arranged for schools and made sure that every body send their kids to school, there was initial drop-out %age of 60%. Then they worked hard to improve it and now it's reduced to 2%.

If AAP is that much ideological then they could have mentioned at least few of those mammoth and plenty of +ve points also about Modi government. In this light what I understand about AAP is what they are doing is not just ideology but more of Politics. "Dude" I guess you need a bit more maturity to understand Politics in its entirety.

After making so many good points (reflecting from AAP and Congress Propaganda), I was not expecting you to come up with "childish" arguments like control over party and self praise. Kid you got to here Modi as well properly. He never said that he has done it himself. What he always say that Gujarat's people did this, and he stressed multiple times on the point that Modi didn't and can't do it all, its a team who did this, and now Gujarat has system in place so that right things gets channelize automatically to get done. And being an state head it's his responsibility to tell his achievement otherwise all his hard work will be washed away in Congress+Nitish+AAP propaganda. (Though Gujarati will elect him again as they know the truth well). BTW AAP never misses any chance to sing a song of their greatness and about there social services as well (being Media or Internet).

You are talking about the control on party who is barely started crawling with handful of workers. And comparing that with a 33 years old party with much older roots and mammoth in size. And you are talking about the control of a person who is not even Party Precedent leave alone founder. 

I'm happy that you read and shared Modi's interview (I read that even before), and I congratulate you to make others in this mail thread aware about that. But that doesn't prove your depth of understanding about them. If you are going to support AAP in election, I'm going to respect that decision as well. Because if I don't do that that means I don't have any faith in democracy.

But let me tell you one thing, AAP will no where close to win Lok sabha seats in numbers even in 2 digits. And the only effect those AAP votes will bring -- will will have Congress (UPA) back again in government. Its not just a fear. it's an understanding and if that happens that will be very unfortunate and you will see that very soon.

And after that only thing all of us would be doing -- CHILL :-) So don't get too much sentimental about what you believe. I think I've made it very clear, why I think AAP is not mature enough to emerge as a national party, and why voting AAP will actually be a more loss then any benefit this time. If somebody still vote them, I would say that is better then voting likes of Congress, Mulayam, Mayawati, Sharad Pawar, Raj Thackeray etc etc...

And "KID" about your hypothetical conspiracy theory, you might not be knowing but most of the AAP core comity members have been RSS+BJP supporters :-). But let's not discuss on the personal details of neither them nor Modi.

-- Your "Bro"

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

REGARDING  your so many assumptions/fear that I was/am congress supporter and now following only AAP, doing research only about AAP only and not looking into BJP.  Dude, I have given you so many links about BJP corruption / policies and as well as also the interview of MODI with an Urdu weekly editor based which i asked anyone who thinks Modi is culprit for 2002 riots to go through. I am not sure if you did go through it or not. It was on +ve side of Modi's efforts. So you cann't say that I am not doing my research well on BJP or I am just blindly following AAP.  

BRO......JUSSSSSSSSSSTTTTT CHILLLLLLLL........ it's ok. take a break, give some time. analyze all the data given here and come back again. If you still feel Modi is best choice, it's perfectly oooookkkkkk. Really it is no big deal. 

Btw, ONE CONSPIRACY THEORY IS ALSO THAT I AM FRIEND OF YOUR FRIEND WHO IS FRIEND OF AK IN CORE COMITTEE ::) :) :) AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE TRYING TO PULL A STRONG SUPPORTER OF MODI IN OUR COMITTEE :) :) :) JUST CHILL DUDE ...THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THAT :) :) 

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Makarand Pawagi <makaran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vipin,

>> We should probably ask Modi sir to scold Vijay Goel to not do such "Immature" acts. 

I guess there is something already happend in that line as Vijay Goel and Modi's differences are visible now... :-)

>> Will be responding to your questions in more detail in some time. 

You are answering lot many things but you are not able to counter points that I put across to say why AAP is not mature enough to hold any ruling position. And believe me that is a fact which is well known by AAP people itself.

There are so many tear puling stories, and I'm sure of the sensitivity of AAP about those. But what I feel is you probably is an ex congress supporter who turned to become an AAP supporter. You are very well researching AAP's basics but you are assuming that all the basics those are associated with BJP are wrong. I gues you should dig into that as well. It's a start of political journey for AAP and in the start every body is a hero. What he turns out to become after getting into the politics is a different thing.

AAP has shown that already. Once entered into the politics they started pedaling stones at every body else. You know in the initial days lalu was one of the Jaiprakash's general and when he was in jail (emergency time), Indira Gandhi tried everything (all kind of tortures) for months to get the names and places of the leaders who went underground at that time, but they couldn't brake him. And then he emerged as a leader and rest is History. 

We have a lot more to see how things are going to move, but at the center right now I want a Very Very strong and credible person as leader, who can give appropriate answers to China and Pakistan as well as can take corrective measures to curb terrorism inside country (instead of doing their appeasement in the name of minority and secularism). A man who has a vision and experience to take growth forward, with a stable government.

On the other hand I would like to AAP to grow enough in next 5 years to challenge them as an clean and good alternative. This can start a good and healthy competitive political environment in the country which this country never witnessed. 

--Makarand

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Shally,

Putting my thouhgts on your questions.

Thanks

vipin

---------------------------------------------------------------

Handling and running India is not plain vanilla thing... because of too much diversity and right for everyone to speak, do riots, destroy public properties ... then every religions expectations... handling and coordinating all this a way to difficult tasks. Now Party like Congress and BJP who way too expert in understanding whole complex equations and minds of inidan ppl .. but do u think AAP understand all that...

>>>>> BJP and Congress certainly understand all these issues very well and for a long time. But they are using these to divide and rule us. They are using it to fool us by buying our hope in every election and then living their luxurious life for 5 years. For example Is BJP really serious against corruption??? If so, why it happened in Karnataka? Why it happened in Goa? Why it happened in Gujrat? Yes it happened in Gujrat too - http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/arvind-kejriwal-targets-narendra-modi/1/236118.html .  If congress gives benefit to Reliance it is corruption but if Modi gives 30000 crore benefit Adani It is for development. Why ???? In fact we call it socio-economic development. It is in fact being harsh to Congress J We have to actually decide if we really want a solution to our problems or if we want to just live in a “wishful thinking” that BJP will solve our problems. If we want later then actually it doesn’t even matter to whom we vote? It really doesn’t even matter.

 

Corruption related to Money and solving that is one issue which can be cleaned but other things like India chaotic caste and religion based politics, everyday demands from communities to fight for reservations, Foreign trade and relation policies, defense from foreign attackers, LeT threats, home grown terriorists from JnK, upgrading society standards overall say socioecomic development.. and top of all .. dealing with these shrewed politicians and their startegies to outcast him... will he and his party be able to manage all this... ??

 >> They can handle much better and why I believe so is that AAP is honest in what they speak and do. BJP just pretends and in fact is more dangerous for country as it dilutes the issue(s). It did so for Cash fore vote, Reservation, Jan-lokpal and many other issues. It just dilutes the issue , buys the hope of people and then keeps living its life.

Dealing with these shrewed politicians and their strategies to outcast him :  It is difficult to comment on outcome but AAP is trying their best and I believe AAP are very smart. I was also thinking that how will AK handle Delhi election if Congress fields Aamir Khan against him. But he really made a smart move. He himself fielded himself against Sheila Dixit. In fact AK challenged Vijay Goel also to fight from same seat. I believe it is very strategic and smart move. If we ignore these incidents to judge the qualities of AK and AAP, it will be like we are doubting our own child and demotivating him.  For this particular point voting to BJP will be like tolerating Sachin Tendulkar for 50 years assuming that no one like him can come. While the matter of the fact is MS Dhoni is 10 times better leader than him and a leader could only bring world cup for India. “

Reservation à BJP itself is promoting reservation for women in politics. If reservation is bad based on caste then it is also wrong based on gender too. Btw, AAP supports only need based reservation. They have clearly said that they do not want any wealthy lower caste person to take reservation in fact this opportunity should go only to a really deserving poor person who can be lower caste or upper caste.

 Caste based politics - Congress / BJP both actually enjoy it. They are using the divide and rule for so long.  BJP very openly promotes cast based politics too. It says that 500 muslims joined BJP.  Isn’t it castism?  Why aren’t they volunteers or activists? Why are they “Muslims” Isn’t it castism?

 Defense from Foreign attackers -   Kargil happened in the time of BJP only. But I am not saying this is fault of BJP. In fact external attacks are not in the control of any party, that’s why we call them “external” and based on the history we have fought all wars well. And it is not all because of leaders ( as in Shastri and AB Vajpayee).  But because country itself gets united and it is Indian ARMY who sacrifices life. So, AK and AAP will have to be too stupid to not let it happen again.

 LeT threats, home grown terriorists from JnK: BJP is in fact more dangerous for this. BJP is not considered secular by significant section of population of India and India has to live with all the sections (I highly recommend watching last 20 minutes of Shaurya Movie for more detailed view on this Movie is based on true events, btw). We agree it or not Godhra riots only gave birth to Indian M***hideen. Now burning of train itself gave birth to Godhra but then question is …. Is that chain reaction right way of handling things because it ultimately gave more harm to the country than any peace/control. And somewhere buck should stop on Modi too….. if he shares credit for growth for Gujrat then he should also take the blame for poor handling.  Anyways, the point is Congress and BJP also are not handling these things in a very good manner in fact they fuel this. Recent attacks on North – East people in Bangalore …..were they the right way of handling it ??

 Socio-Economic Development: Indians are really hard working and smart people. AK and AAP will have to be really stupid to stop this growth.  Btw, it is much wider topic, It will require me long time to explain this.

 

Their approach and way they are proceeding is Commendable and I want them to grow... but still I feel will they survive even if they win in 2014. Now, I do not go by the statement NaMo is nothing better. Yes he is better and doing better things than other parties. Things are better but not very different... having things better is itself a some sign of relief. 

 Will they survive 2014? I do not know. In fact seeing the brutalities of Delhi Police yesterday I am not sure if they will survive alive at all not just politically.

 But Shally, I request you to please take your time to think out on this and AAP’s efforts. And if we believe they are honest and really deserve a chance let’s all be with them. If we start doubting them it will do no good for us or them but just demotivate them and on the other hand as I mentioned earlier - “Let’s do the RIGHT thing. Let’s not just give the “benefit of our fear that AAP might not win” to BJP.”  RIGHT thing is to support AAP at the moment , result is not in our hand.

 

...

[Shally Verma]

Yes, whatever Indian citizen deserves they should get that but fortunately/unfortunately to get that is also in Indians hands .. in our hand. So, I also pray and believe "May we all choose the right thing THIS TIME". . We should be able to look beyond and above our beliefs whats more better in national interest. I do support AAP and BJP also. Either of them wins will be my gain. and I keep my fingers crossed on 2014 elections.And I am all so thankful to each one of you who contributed to this discussion thread as my personal interest is look beyond my own belief and thought process to analyse whatever am thinking is right or not.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Subodh, 

Very well comprehended.  It actually happens in these kind of discussions and we keep seeing it happening in both the AAP / BJP forums. As you have mentioned, let's agree to disagree on ..... We have enough data for everyone to look and decide and that probably was more important thing to come up with. ........ Everyone here is mature enough to take his/her call among all the parties (including congress ).  

Once again -   "Hopefully the ppl of India will choose the right one." 

and I would like to finish the contribution(s) from my side with the beautiful quote from Benjamin Franklin . I really like this above quote from "Nation Building" perspective.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin. 

With warm regards to all, 

-Vipin Sharma. 

--

-vipin

[Shally Verma]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/Member-of-Aam-Aadmi-Party-killed/articleshow/20749762.cms

One more... 

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

We were discussing her a couple of days back and now, Sushma Koli, has been hit again - almost lethally.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Ghaziabad-AAP-leader-injured-in-accident/articleshow/20848425.cms

It's very difficult to find such truthful and brave people. One in million only is like that. May God be with her  but at the same time we also need to be behind such brave people.

-vipin

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Vipin Sharma <sh.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Subodh, 

Very well comprehended.  It actually happens in these kind of discussions and we keep seeing it happening in both the AAP / BJP forums. As you have mentioned, let's agree to disagree on ..... We have enough data for everyone to look and decide and that probably was more important thing to come up with. ........ Everyone here is mature enough to take his/her call among all the parties (including congress ).  

Once again -   "Hopefully the ppl of India will choose the right one." 

and I would like to finish the contribution(s) from my side with the beautiful quote from Benjamin Franklin . I really like this above quote from "Nation Building" perspective.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin. 

With warm regards to all, 

-Vipin Sharma. 

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Subodh Sharma <isu...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

-vipin

--

-vipin

[Rajesh Yadav]

Hi friends,

I was looking for the consultancy management book that we studied in our course. The book was good but not able to remember the name/author.

If you remember then can you please pass on the same.

Thanks
Rajesh

[Rajesh Thore]

Hi Rajesh, please refer this link

http://www.ilo.org/global/publications/ilo-bookstore/order-online/books/WCMS_PUBL_9221095193_EN/lang--en/index.htm

Sent from my iPhone

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"BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt" group
http://groups.google.com/group/MSCM2007?hl=en
"BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt" Blog
http://bitsconsultants.blogspot.com
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt" group.

[Sanjeev Talwar]

Does anyone still have this book? I would like to photocopy and return back.

Thanks,

Sanjeev

---

CC: mscm...@googlegroups.com
From: rajes...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [MSCM2007] Consultancy mgmt book
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 19:52:55 +0530
To: rajesh...@gmail.com

[Rajesh Thore]

Google it, u may find.

Sent from my iPhone

[Rajesh Thore]

Guys, I am looking for some inputs and references for designing a PPP (boot/boo/etc.) projects. Any suggestion, please drop me a mail.

Regards,
Rajesh thore

[Udaya Kumar]

check this link and download .. good luck -- Udaya Kumar

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fkpe.fph.vse.cz%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2FMC.pdf&ei=prcEUtKIDcGMrQfN1oDAAQ&usg=AFQjCNHLDQg7jLEBD9ZcD9cioYgUZHXsVg&sig2=lJCADOOhLFXE7tkH9BUE9w

[Amit Khare]

Hi Friends,

Need  your help.

My sister-in-law got married recently , but their in-laws are not behaving well from 1st day of her marriage.

Earlier she was working and quit the job due to marriage. Now she is looking for job again to settle down the issues.

She is having around 4+ year of experience in training and development . 2.5 year in teaching and around 1.5 in development . 

Here educational qualification is diploma in computer science and MCA .

Please forward her resume in your respective companies .

Thanks

Amit

Regards,
Amit

[Rajesh Thore]

Hi,

National law school of India university, bangalore is offering Masters in Business Laws.

I have enrolled as this is a distance learning 2 years program. Last date is 30 aug 13. You may apply online and make payment.

You may check more details @ following URL

Ded.nls.ac.in

Thought to share with you. In case some is interested pleased let me know, so that we can sync.

Best regards,
Rajesh

[ravinder kulsari]

Thank you Rajesh, seems to be a very good course. 

Ravi

---

From: Rajesh Thore <rajes...@gmail.com>
To: BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt <mscm...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013 6:03 PM
Subject: [MSCM2007] Some one interested

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"BITS - MS Consultancy Mgmt" group
http://groups.google.com/group/MSCM2007?hl=en
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mscm2007+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Shally Verma]

HI Everyone... 

Since elections over .... wanted re-juvinate thread which we left after loong discussions and debate ..which was actually very enlightening for me... though its now more wait n watch .. but am verry happy to see voter turnaround and also the fact they shown congress the door. But am equally sad for AAP. this was very evident they will not win this LS election but i wasnt expecting that they will loose in delhi as well. its time for them to introspect and come back to their original strategy and improve further.

Anyways.... hope everyone enjoyed election results and thanks everyone for being a healthy n wealthy group i truly njoyed the knowledge depth that comes out of this group of ppl from diff domain. :)