Re: [LearningOrgan] Organ and Piano duets for Hymns

[Shari Rosenberg]

Rachel,

I'd LOVE a copy of your piano/organ duet!  I just performed my first duet this Christmas.  It sounded great--plus, it was fun to do.  I found my arrangement at the BYU Organ Workshop last year in the shop that was set up for attendees.  Unfortunately, my music is in storage, so I can't even tell you the publisher.  But if you're coming to the organ workshop this August, I'm sure you'll see several arrangements there.  Others may have more information.

Thanks for the duet....

Shari

On 7/8/07, Rachel <rachel...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

Several years ago I was visiting a church where they played an
embellished piano arrangement with the regular organ hymn for
Christmas music.

I loved it so much that I have started doing that for Christmas songs
and have come up with my own arrangements.  I have been able to find a
few online as well.  (I wish I would have asked the pianist when I saw
her play the first time, but I didn't and I missed my chance!)

Then I was asked to do this again for the 4th of July - for The Star-
Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My Country, 'Tis of Thee, and
The Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Does anyone else do this?  If so, were do you get your arrangements?
(They don't have to be Christmas or patriotic, they can be any hymns.)

Also - since I have just created piano accompaniments for the above
patriotic songs, if anyone would like a copy, please let me know and
I'm happy to share them.  They are for the LDS Hymnal.  The Star-
Spangled Banner was lowered to the key of G to make it easier for the
organist, who is a beginner and doesn't like 4 flats, but I can
transpose it back very easily.  Just let me know which key you want.

It sounds great, and people love singing when we do this.  We
definitely get a more enthusiastic participation.

Have a great day!

Rachel

[Christine Rauckis]

Rachel, I'd also love to have a copy of those duets. It's never too early to plan for Christmas!

-Chris Rauckis

[melizza]

This sounds awesome.. I'm fairly new and have never posted here
before but would love ANY of these arraingments. This is a great time
for Christmas music! I'm not the best organist so I need PRACTICE
PRACTICE PRACTICE!!

Thanks in advance and what an awesome Idea for a yahoo group about
Learning Organ!

[Lori]

Hi Rachel,

Thanks for posting. I've done several piano/organ duets as special
numbers, but none as congregational accompaniments. They sound fun
and I'd love to get the link/copy from you. One question though --
did you have to get special permission from the Bishop for doing
this? Would it be appropriate for a sacrament hymn? We really try to
stay within guidelines from SLC. I have a feeling I'd probably be
going to the Bishop and Stake President for the approval in my stake.

Thanks again.
Lori

[Julia shumway]

Hi Rachel,

 

I know this original post was years ago and I'm not even sure if you are still active in this group as I have just discovered it. I was looking for a simple piano organ duet and what you have sounds perfect, but google no longer has files.  Is there any way I can get a copy of them?  My email is shum...@yahoo.com.  Thank you so much for sharing!

 

Julia Shumway

 

On Monday, July 9, 2007 11:56:06 PM UTC-5, Rachel wrote:

I just posted several songs in the Files section.

How Great Thou Art is one we did as a choir number, but we talked
about doing it with the organ too...  It would have to be changed a
little to make it work, but it is a great version of the song.  I
can't remember where I got it, so my apologies in advance...

Rachel

[Thomas Holbrook]

Hey Rachel!

I was also wondering if I could get copies of the piano/organ duets if you still have them. My email is thomasho...@gmail.com! Thanks for your help.

Thomas Holbrook

[Julie Welling]

Whoops, forgot to give you my email.  It's juli...@gmail.com  Thanks again!

[Julie Welling]

Hi Rachel,

Do you still have the piano/organ duets available to share?  These would be perfect for our ward and I would love to get copies of them.

Very sincerely,

Julie

[Sherrie Heywood]

I would love any piano/organ duets you are willing to share as well.  I am asked to play year round at most holidays.  Working on Easter right now, but would love anything you have to share!  Thank you so very much!

sherrie...@comcast.net

On Saturday, July 7, 2007 at 10:56:03 PM UTC-7, Rachel wrote:

Hello,

Several years ago I was visiting a church where they played an
embellished piano arrangement with the regular organ hymn for
Christmas music.

I loved it so much that I have started doing that for Christmas songs
and have come up with my own arrangements.  I have been able to find a
few online as well.  (I wish I would have asked the pianist when I saw
her play the first time, but I didn't and I missed my chance!)

Then I was asked to do this again for the 4th of July - for The Star-
Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My Country, 'Tis of Thee, and
The Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Does anyone else do this?  If so, were do you get your arrangements?

(They don't have to be Christmas or patriotic, they can be any hymns.)

[BCWB...@aol.com]

The Handbook #2 is Music section 14.9.3 discourages the use of the piano and the organ simultaneously.  It does say it can be done "occasionally".  In many cases, the organ and the piano are not tuned to the same

pitches.  Organs are tuned to "A 440", but pianos are not.  Just because they share the same stand, about the only thing the two share is a keyboard.

 

It does sound like those who are employing these duets are using them for "holiday" or special season occasions, which does fit the handbook description.  If the piano is adding "color", it might work, if the instruments are in tune with one another, but, if they are doubling one another, it adds nothing.

 

I also have it on good authority that the Church Music Committee does not endorse piano and organ duets.

 

Beth Ballantyne

 

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[Eric McKirdy]

Sorry, but since when are pianos not tuned to 440?

Sent from my iPhone

[BCWB...@aol.com]

Dear Eric, Only a portion of a piano's strings are tuned to an attempt at A 440.  Depending on individual tuners, the use of the Railsback Curve is used to help the upper and lower portions of the keyboard be in tune with the middle portion.  Also, as the hammer hits the 3 strings of each note, the individual strings don't vibrate at the same frequencies.

 

I'm guessing that an electronic organ and an electronic piano might have a better chance of harmonizing with one another, depending on their individual tuning.  However, we have an acoustic piano and a pipe organ in each of the buildings in our stake, so, the chances of them having matching harmonics is thereby lessened.

Pipe organs involve a column of air, so, are tuned to A 440 in an entirely different way.

 

My understanding is that the use of organ and piano duets was perhaps more popularly used in the past.

However, many, including those who compiled the contents of the Church Handbook of Instructions, and, the Church Music Committee members wish to discourage and limit this practice, now.  Personally, I think it is tacky, and, adds nothing to a worship service.

 

Beth Ballantyne

[Max Walker]

I'd propose that we not become too proscriptive. The handbook allows occasional use, so use it occasionally if it's meaningful to the local congregation and supported by local leadership. The handbook is no more proscriptive than that. Certainly, there are good musical realities to consider. Music's nature doesn't bend to our whim, so if the pipe and the string conflict with each other, leave them be. But they often are "good enough" to be pleasing and meaningful. (Except for that one lady in my choir with perfect pitch, but we've come to an arrangement. :) 

Nearly all music decisions (within the handbook's fairly wide music parameters) come down to what will serve and edify those people in that chapel on that day. And the right answers change depending on any one of those three pillars: what one congregation finds meaningful another finds tacky; what works in one chapel really falls flat in another; and what works on a given day can depend on the specific needs of the people that day. So many good opportunities are missed if we tighten the parameters beyond what is needed. Take all the relevant input, be realistic about the instruments and talent at your disposal, then go serve those people! 

[Eric McKirdy]

I agree. Fortunately, Jackman doesn’t take a dim view of the efficacy of piano/organ duets, and publishes a number of very accessible arrangements. 

As with everything musical, they need to be done well to be effective, and not a distraction from the music itself. But to label them all “tacky” is an unfair and unwarranted stereotype. They can be, but they don’t have to be.

I’ll be playing the organ for a large choir performing in the Tabernacle at the end of the month, and for about one third of the repertoire, organ and piano will be playing together. It can be quite effective when done judiciously.

The sacred, holy manual mostly contains rules designed to save certain people from themselves. But where talent and opportunity exist to elevate the level of worship integrity, why not take advantage of it? If we make all our musical decisions because “the manual says…,” a lot of great opportunities would be missed.

Eric

On Apr 13, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Max Walker <maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd propose that we not become too proscriptive. The handbook allows occasional use, so use it occasionally if it's meaningful to the local congregation and supported by local leadership. The handbook is no more proscriptive than that. Certainly, there are good musical realities to consider. Music's nature doesn't bend to our whim, so if the pipe and the string conflict with each other, leave them be. But they often are "good enough" to be pleasing and meaningful. (Except for that one lady in my choir with perfect pitch, but we've come to an arrangement. :) 

Nearly all music decisions (within the handbook's fairly wide music parameters) come down to what will serve and edify those people in that chapel on that day. And the right answers change depending on any one of those three pillars: what one congregation finds meaningful another finds tacky; what works in one chapel really falls flat in another; and what works on a given day can depend on the specific needs of the people that day. So many good opportunities are missed if we tighten the parameters beyond what is needed. Take all the relevant input, be realistic about the instruments and talent at your disposal, then go serve those people! 

[Sunnyside Vet Clinic]

I  feel that perhaps "tacky" is not quite the word I might use in this situation. 

As for the tuning issues, we do not demand perfection from our soloists for them to be sacrament-meeting-worthy, why should we demand perfection from our instruments?  I do not believe more than 1% of the people in most congregations would be able to identify the few cents tuning difference in a quiet room playing one note at a time, let alone during a live performance in a crowded chapel.

"People" also argue that a celeste should not be used because the few cents difference in tuning will somehow throw the congregation off-pitch.  The reality is that most congregational singers are lucky to be within a quarter-tone of pitch anyway.

If only the handbook would be so clear regarding hymns played under-tempo!

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[Dan Gawthrop]

I couldn’t agree more that the problem with hymn tempos is far more harmful (and common) than tuning issues. This situation is frequently exacerbated by both members and keyboardists who have heard and participated in largo-fest hymn singing for so long that they think of it as normal and are startled by a hymn taken at an invigorating pace. Often they view plodding hymns as somehow more reverent, which means that trying to make meaningful changes is frequently resisted.

Dan Gawthrop

Twin Falls Idaho 14th Ward 

Third Auxiliary Organist

[babymac]

Just a thought. I absolutely agree with all of the technical details of piano organ duets. I get it. The thing I get hung up on is the congregational response. They LOVE them. I've never been in a ward where people are not moved to tears and come up in droves to thank us for the music. We have skilled organists in our ward who play amazing prelude, beautiful hymn harmonizations, etc. Nothing gets the response in the singing and thanks afterwards from the congregation like a piano organ duet. Isn't that more important?

[Dan Eickmeier]

I don’t think these are a good idea either.  I’ve heard them done before, but like it is pointed out in the post to which I’m replying, the instruments can be slightly off from each other in tuning, so  I think organ and piano duetts don’t really work  that well.  However i’ve heard them done before.  

[Kay's]

This is the response I have received every year—We have done it usually just at Christmas—either as prelude or choir pieces.

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The task ahead of us is never as

great as the Power behind us. RWE

Kay

[BCWB...@aol.com]

On page 115 of the Handbook of Instructions, in section 14.4.2 , paragraph 5, with respect to Guidelines for Choosing Appropriate Music for Church Worship Services, it states "Music in Church meetings should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration.  This music is for worship, not performance".  Section 14.4.4, on p.116, in the section about Sacrament Meetings, 1st paragraph, states "Music in Sacrament Meeting is for worship, not for a performance that draws attention to itself".

 

When the Handbook of instructions was first introduced, one of the authorities on the committee that formulated the handbook joked that, if you had a deep, dark secret that you didn't want anyone to know about, you should put it in the handbook, and, there your secret would be safe.

[Eric McKirdy]

So in your opinion, these duets cannot have any worship value? Because we've seen several other people here say that they've witnessed plenty of worship value. 

Sent from my iPhone

[John Feik]

i know what the handbook says and what is said at the byu organ workshop about organ and piano duets.  but i keep getting invited to play our pipe organ with the piano and i've never in years heard a complaint about pitch.  And it does have worship value.  And I occasionally employ Celeste voices in congregational singing such as the last verse of "where can I turn for peace" where the text says "he answers privately".  That is a sacred moment and the Celeste voice gives a heavenly feeling.  And the congregation does not struggle with pitch.  My two cents.

On Apr 15, 2017 11:13 AM, "Eric McKirdy" <ericm...@gmail.com> wrote:

So in your opinion, these duets cannot have any worship value? Because we've seen several other people here say that they've witnessed plenty of worship value. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Sunnyside Vet Clinic]

I personally find that grand, sweeping, beautiful music (like piano/organ duets) makes me feel closer to God.  I am perfectly OK with others feeling differently. 

But we should be careful about judging the thoughts and intents of the hearts of the performers.  Some people don't like free accompaniments either.  They feel the organist is showing off.  When I play free accompaniments, I rejoice in the grandeur of the music and have feelings of increased reverence and worship. If I were doing them to show off, my hands wouldn't shake so much!

There is plenty of precedent for big, grand, sweeping music in the Church.  The Mormon Tabernacle Choir comes to mind.  A 360-voice choir accompanied by a 130-rank pipe organ played 4-handed is not small.  When they perform a big piece in General Conference, is that "a performance that draws attention to itself," or is it for worship?  The heavenly hosts of Luke 2 do not sound like a small thing either.

I personally think primary kids singing is plenty cute, but that almost never invokes reverential feelings in my cold, calloused heart.  The person sitting in front of me may be moved to tears by the same performance.  So it is with music.  Different things affect different people in different ways.  That's why a variety is a good thing.

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[John Feik]

i frequently get asked to play solos for sacrament.  i quit worrying about drawing attention to myself years ago.  Who else is going to get the attention when I'm playing by myself?  And if it is done tastefully and I'm well prepared, it will not distract from the meeting but will enhance the spirit.  i often play special arrangements of hymns of praise, sometimes at full blast.  the congregation including the bishopric always love it. 

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[Max Walker]

The key is to have all these guidelines, opinions, experiences, and advice all in your mind (be informed), and then sit down at your instrument in your chapel with your congregation in mind and a prayer on your lips and make your best judgements each week. So, so many variables and so, so many opportunities to inspire!

Experiment to find the sounds and articulations and whatever else will inspire your congregation during that service. Once the spirit grants audience, so to speak, then the conversation is over for that service. Just be ready for the spirit to steer you differently on the same hymn in future, because you will be preparing to serve a different mix of people with different needs that week. His approval is the one your working for.

I also carefully consider not only the direction of leadership but also the needs of leadership. I recently had the opportunity to sing at a stake leadership meeting While singing, I became very aware of their burden and witnessed how the singing visibly lifted that burden, or rather, made way for the spirit to lift that burden, if only for a moment. Now, I bring that perspective to the bench, too.

Let's do our talent and calling (lower case "c") honor by being less concerned with rules and more concerned with blessing the lives of the Saints of God.

[Joshua Tolley]

I may be branded as apostate for saying so, but it's the scriptures that are a law unto the church (D&C 42) and not the handbook. The scriptures are clear that music -- including sometimes loud, rejoicing music, played by inexpert musicians and even on (gasp!) loud brass and percussion instruments -- is suitable for worship in many circumstances. The purpose of church music is not to please the musically educated according to the stylistic dictates of the day but to worship God according to the spirit. I sometimes find myself turned off by the dissonance of organ/piano duets, but I expect this is more likely due to my own pride and stubbornness than some inherent irreverence in that style of worship.

[BCWB...@aol.com]

The Handbook of Instructions is not "law", but, contains guidelines to help those who serve in a worldwide church to have uniform practices.  In other words, someone who attends a church meeting anywhere in the world can go with certain expectations that the content of these meetings will share similarities.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  We have endeavored to follow the Handbook guidelines.  I fail to understand how sharing those guidelines with others who may not be aware of them constitutes "judging".

 

We have all received the blessings of being guided by the Spirit as we endeavor to serve and grow in our callings.  I suspect that we have all, at one time or another, asked permission from our Priesthood leaders to bring to pass a musical offering that is wide of the guidelines in the Handbook.  We know that if we can get them to say "yes", we have a green light.  There is also great pleasure in receiving the trust and reliance of our Priesthood leaders that we wouldn't seek to introduce a musical element into a service that would distract from the Spirit.

 

We have a very fine pipe organ, and, we very much enjoy hearing it as it leads our congregation in worship.  We have no objection to free organ accompaniments, registration changes during hymns, anything that allows that instrument do what it was built to do.  We offer organ instruction every year, so, we have individuals of all levels of expertise involved in the worship services in our ward and stake.  We have been able to have instruments other than the standard piano or organ to accompany or to provide music, such as a brass quintet for Christmas, one year.  We had a trumpet duet join the organ to accompany a choir offering, also. 

 

One of the things that caused me to participate in this discussion was a remark that the attention/praise a musical offering elicited from the congregation might be more important in making a decision for its use rather than whether it would invite the Spirit into a worship service. 

 

This forum has been put together so that we can help one another as resources as we attempt to fulfill our respective callings.  I don't think criticism of one another is appropriate.  I do think we should be allowed to share our thoughts, and, as we receive them, we can decide whether they are helpful to us, or not.  I am amazed at the way that this discussion went from Piano/Organ duets to many other topics that had nothing to do with the initial post.

 

In a message dated 4/16/2017 8:48:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, eggy...@gmail.com writes:

I may be branded as apostate for saying so, but it's the scriptures that are a law unto the church (D&C 42) and not the handbook. The scriptures are clear that music -- including sometimes loud, rejoicing music, played by inexpert musicians and even on (gasp!) loud brass and percussion instruments -- is suitable for worship in many circumstances. The purpose of church music is not to please the musically educated according to the stylistic dictates of the day but to worship God according to the spirit. I sometimes find myself turned off by the dissonance of organ/piano duets, but I expect this is more likely due to my own pride and stubbornness than some inherent irreverence in that style of worship.

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[Max Walker]

One of the things that I teach my boys to do is to doff their hats when praying in groups. That's a North American traditional show of respect for prayer. I also teach them that doffing the hat is not a commandment or even a counsel from prophets. It's cultural. And it's good cultural. People of other faiths or in other parts of the world make a point to don a hat before prayer. That is their traditional show of respect for prayer. Also good cultural. Either is perfectly valid from an LDS perspective. So which is the right thing to do? I tell my boys that in such a matter, you do as those around you expect you to do. If you're praying in an LDS Boy Scout Troop, doff the cap, mates. If you're praying with a group of Jewish friends, then don your cap, boy, to show respect both to God and to your fellow man. The principle is to recognize the greater good -- groups praying to the Almighty -- and not to become a barrier to the greater good by getting hung up on the small stuff. At 13 and 17, they get it. 

I believe that church musicians should follow a similar thinking. Our "cultural" or technique decisions aren't about hats, but about organ/piano duets or not. Changes in registration or not. reharmonizations or not. Mixtures or not. Easter anthems sung with joy or not. :)  These are just some of the choices. There are guidelines and large bodies of relevant organ tradition to inform us. Be informed. Then play in a way appropriate to your congregation's bearing capacity, in a way to invite the spirit instead of detracting from the spirit (no, softer and slower is not always better for that). Don't get in the way of the greater good -- people worshipping together -- by getting hung up on the small stuff. At 50, I'm sure we can get it, too. 

Yesterday, for "Christ the Lord Is Risen Today," I opened up the organ, starting out with mixtures and reeds on verse 1, adding more on v2, no "stops" barred on v3. A tempo right up at 106. And they sang it. With spirit. And several older ladies rushed the organ afterwards to thank me for the Easter music. This is not seeking praise from them or opening up the organ for attention. This was worship that was moving, and they were grateful for that experience with the spirit and wanted to share that gratitude, the love that filled them. Several will say to my wife and children, "I like it when he plays the organ." The complement is perfectly phrased, slightly separated from me. They're speaking to the experience they have when I play, not something specific that I do when I play. They long for that worshipful feeling that the organ provides and facilitates so well, like others may long for an inspiring speaker or teacher. That thank-you, yeah, I'll take that. It has the feeling of faith shared, of testimony borne. I spent my hour offering a medium for edification for them, and they repay me with the same spirit.  I wouldn't trade that for anything here in the forum. 

It's being a church musician just the best!? :)  

[Paul Slaughter]

I almost fear to dip my toes into this, but I hope the following experience will shed some light on why the handbook states "Using the piano and organ at the same time is not standard for Church meetings. However, these instruments may be used together occasionally."  As a missionary (wow, over 20 years ago!) I ended up serving in Ogden for three months due to visa problems. The first time I visited the Ogden 3rd ward for Sacrament Meeting, I was struck by a very bizarre sound during the opening hymn - and then during every other hymn, as well. They were using both organ and piano on every verse of every hymn, both playing straight out of the hymnbook. It was a strangely discordant sound, not at all reverent, and it did nothing to enhance the spirit of the hymns. Rather distracting, actually. THIS is what the handbook policy is about, NOT about occasionally using a special organ/piano accompaniment for hymn singing, nor is it about the occasional organ/piano duet as a musical number. Remember, the policy does not forbid the use of piano and organ together, and as several have already pointed out, it's a matter of being guided by the spirit ... and also a matter of how the piano and organ sound together in your chapel!

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