Propane and butane mix

[Greg Buenas]

Dr Eric,

Question: Is LPG AutoGas a different mix from LPG cooking gas?

For others to know na rin.

Thanks!

GB aka R

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Eric Punzalan <punz...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Those who simply follow others' footsteps do not leave their own footprints."

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Greg Buenas <gbu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree.  Some people just wait too long.  Trail blazing sometimes is the way to go!

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Joel Tanangonan <joel_ta...@yahoo.com> wrote:

as the nike tag line goes...  just do it...  for mother earth.

 

the future is now.

--
Eric R. Punzalan PhD
Environmental and Organic Chemistry
DLSU-Manila

PADI Divemaster/ Emergency First Response Instructor #491061

punzalane.multiply.com

[Adil Erdem]

Dear Friends,

in most cases the kitchen gas could use in automobiles as autogas because it is regular butane and propane mixture however many countries has special standarts for autgas aplications. In the World, mixtures are changing because of weather conditions, economical reasons, production systems and supply channels.

I could say yes u could use kitchen gas as autogas... however with some negative effects....

If u need more detail I will try to explaine more about mixture effects on efficiency of motor engines....

Warm regards,

Adil Erdem
LPGas Equipments Turkey

[Eric Punzalan]

I do not know exactly what they sell us but the term Liquefied Petroleum Gas apply to both, separately or mixed when compressed into liquid form.

Propane is suitable at low temperature conditions because it has higher vapor pressure than butane.

Maybe Tony can answer that.



:)

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[Eric Punzalan]

Thanks Adil :)
Pls continue !

[Adil Erdem]

Let me explain some briefly;

1- Mixture effects on engine is depand on caloric capacity of propane and butane. As all know that the propane contains quite high calorific values compare with butane... this means if the propane is higher in mixture, the engine efficiency will increase.... more power could get from engine... however the density of propane is slightly less than butane and average fuel consumption of engine will increase too because of propane....

2- Cold weather conditions (in Philipines average weather quite high than 15C) means less butane vaporization. Butane could easly vaporise it self at and below 0 C and propane vaporise at -46 C... The cold conditions needs more propane for start up phase of engine...

3- Pressure of propane quite higher than the butane and in hot weather conditions the high mixture rate of propane will cause dangerous leakages because of internal pressure of tank and piping system....

4- Regular kitchen gas has more particules and dirties inside of mixture... because we use only gas phase of LPG in cylinders and never use liquid phase... however in cars we send liquid LPG to filter and to vaporizer in liquid form... this means all dirties will come up to filter and vaporizer... if there is some damaged areas in these parts means all dirties will arrive to motor combusiton chamber and will effect on negative way...

5- Regular LPG has some residues as mercaptanes (sulphur contents) for odor. The autogas has lower rates than kitchen gas because of sulphuric acid effects of this mercaptanes after burning in motor chamber.... as u know acids are corrosing and damaging methal parts.....

I hope all this will enough for beginning....

Warm regards to all friends....

Adil Erdem
LPGas Equipment Turkey

[Ed Garcia]

Thank you Adil for a very informative explanation ...

I think I can understand the caloric values by observing that gas canisters from portable stoves (propane?) can boil water faster than regular LPG gas.  It means propane burns hotter. 

My question then is ... do the proportions vary between autogas suppliers?  Is it correct to assume that one supplier might have a better "blend" for your car that another supplier? 

thanks
ed
www.waypoints.ph

[Adil Erdem]

Dear Ed,

yes...... in the kitchen conditions it depands on pot surface on fire and room temperature... however u will observe it by carefull tests and clock counting ....

second answer yes again.... some propotions will effect on car efficiency and consumption.... however the millage of car depands on many items.... example accuracy of dispenser....

Regards,

Adil

[Eric Punzalan]

Hmm...I understand propane has a slightly higher calorific value over butane by mass (~1%)
while butane has a higher value by volume....

Is the difference that significant ? :)

[Adil Erdem]

Dear Eric,

According to questions I want to send this presentation to all friends.... it is free for any kind of usage (personal or commercial)....

I hope the figures in presentation will help u for LPG.....

Warm regards,

Adil

[Eric Punzalan]

Hmmm...the portable stove fuel I buy from ACE hardware says "butane" :)

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 4:18 AM, Ed Garcia <eppg...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg Buenas]

Dear Adil,

Thank you for sharing your information!

I have the same question as Ed:

Ed wrote:
My question then is ... do the proportions vary between autogas suppliers?  Is it correct to assume that one supplier might have a better "blend" for your car that another supplier? 

Cheers!

[Greg Buenas]

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Greg Buenas <gbu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Adil,

Thank you for sharing your information!

I have the same question as Ed:

Ed wrote:
My question then is ... do the proportions vary between autogas suppliers?  Is it correct to assume that one supplier might have a better "blend" for your car that another supplier? 

Or is there like an international standard of propane butane proportion of AutoGas?

Cheers!

[Adil Erdem]

Dear All,

Greg asked again the same question of Ed... yes the proportions of LPG directly effecting on consumption and power rates... The suppliers will use different sources of LPG or their facilities will not be enough for some technical controls and arrangements as fixing of the mixture rates, controling of dirties and small particules (filtering) of LPG, controling the level of mercaptanes, etc.

Such problems will cause different products in the market by different suppliers....

Warm regadrs from Istanbul

Adil

[Adil Erdem]

Another point;

I have no idea about recent Philipine market players and their marketing policies on LPG.... because of this theoretically, the proportions of LPG could vary between autogas suppliers.... answer is YES.....

Adil