THERM does not recognize nominal thickness of glazing systems in WINDOW

[Michael Franco]

Hello,

I'm having some trouble importing glazing systems into my THERM file with nominal glazing system widths. I'm trying to make use of the Multiple Glazing Options feature.

I have the Use Nominal Glass Thickness option selected in WINDOW:

and in THERM for the import:

However in my THERM file, it still gives the glazing system its precise width of 47.02mm instead of 47mm:

This discrepancy seems to prohibit me from using the Glazing Options feature since it doesn't recognize the other glazing systems in my .mdb file as having the same width. The nominal width for all systems is 47mm.

Software versions: WINDOW v7.8.57  // THERM 7.8.57

I'd greatly appreciate your help in getting the nominal widths and Glazing Options features to work.

Thank you,

Michael Franco

Phius (Passive House Institute US)

Product Certification Manager

mfr...@phius.org

[Robin Mitchell]

Michael

This is a problem that has come up before with some users. 

The issue is that the Nominal Thickness definitions in the therm7.8.ini file get set to 0 or -1. We aren't sure how that happens, but here is what you need to do. 

The therm7.8.ini file is located here

C:\Users\Public\LBNL\Settings

It is a text file that can be edited with a text editor such as Notepad, etc. 

In that file are a series of lines that define the Nominal Thickness parameters. 

Here is what that section of the INI should be set to -- you can edit your existing INI file, delete the existing Nominal Thickness definitions (which I suspect are set to 0 or -1), and then copy these definitions and paste them into the INI file. 

You might make a copy of your INI file before editing it, just for good measure.

Nominal1=2.500000
Nominal2=3.000000
Nominal3=4.000000
Nominal4=5.000000
Nominal5=6.000000
Nominal6=8.000000
Nominal7=10.000000
Nominal8=12.000000
NominalMax1=2.570000
NominalMax2=3.400000
NominalMax3=4.190000
NominalMax4=5.050000
NominalMax5=6.200000
NominalMax6=8.430000
NominalMax7=10.310000
NominalMax8=13.490000
NominalMin1=2.160000
NominalMin2=2.920000
NominalMin3=3.780000
NominalMin4=4.570000
NominalMin5=5.560000
NominalMin6=7.420000
NominalMin7=9.020000
NominalMin8=11.910000

Here is a screenshot of my INI file, showing the nominal thickness definitions, in the context of the other lines in the file

I can also provide you with the INI file that comes with the THERM installation, if you don't want to edit the file. 

But the INI file contains a lot of other settings (like default paths of various files, etc) that will get overwritten if you substitute the install file INI for the one you have been using. 

Let me know if you have any more questions, and if this doesn't solve the problem. But hopefully it will. 

Robin

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Robin Mitchell

Building Technology and Urban Systems Division
Energy Technologies Area
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

[Michael Franco]

Thank you, Robin! The 0/1 values do look like the cause of the problem. I would really appreciate a copy of the default .ini file so I can compare it to my own.

It looks like I have some NominalMin and NominalMax lines that repeat in my THERM 7.8 .ini file or that aren't listed in your screenshot example. My .ini files for THERM 7.8 and 7.7 are attahced in .txt format for reference. I don't see as many Nominal values in my 7.7 .ini file.

Place 1 of 2 where Nominal settings appear:

Place 2 of 2:

Many thanks,

Michael Franco

mfr...@phius.org

[Robin Mitchell]

Here is a link to zip file which contains a "good" therm7.8.ini file, but saved as therm7.8.txt

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18D0MTPyuqN9n9t1eNFLc8eHpLA8ivH25/view?usp=sharing

It is available to anyone, in case others have a similar problem. 

Let me know if this fixes your problem. 

Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/LBNL-THERM/d532d997-6964-4d2b-9429-eb40ac3a1533n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Franco]

Thank you, Robin! That did the trick! Much appreciated.

--

Michael Franco

Product Certification Manager | Phius

53 W. Jackson Blvd. Ste. 1432

Chicago, IL 60604

direct: (312) 447-9935

office: (312) 561-4588

www.phius.org

Schedule a meeting with me

[Robin Mitchell]

I'm glad that worked, but it is frustrating not to know how the INI file gets in that state.

If you ever have any clues about that, please let me know !!!

Robin

[Jonathan Spencer]

Some thoughts on this, in case it helps anyone...

This was a problem we only encountered in 7.8.57, which was required for NFRC work briefly. When 7.8.71 came out, we switched immediately and have not seen it since. I think the root cause is that 7.8.57 does not crash gracefully, leading to corrupt INI files.

When Therm closes, it updates its INI file to account for any settings changes you made while using it. Sometimes, maybe during a crash, there is a chance this process will fail leaving you with an incomplete INI. I have seen broken INI files with half of the ~250 rows they are supposed to have in them missing. If some of the deleted rows are the Nominal thicknesses, Therm tries to recreate the lines, but doesn't actually know what thickness values to use. It sets everything as -1/0. You can test this by deleting some lines and see that it tries to put them back, but doesn't get the values right. 

Other related thoughts

1. To get nominal glass thickness in Therm, only the checkbox in Therm has to be checked. You can check it in Window if you like, but it is not a requirement.

2. Back in Therm 7.4.4, The INI file could be rearranged in any order and would stay that way. This was convenient for managing custom nominal thicknesses for things like laminates. Ever since 7.7.x, the INI file reorganizes itself in alphabetical order every time Therm closes, which is less ideal if you need to going there often and modify things. This is a very niche nitpick, but unless it had to change for a specific reason, it would be cool to have that back :)