Skip to first unread message
Brian Howell
May 13, 2015, 11:15:49 AM5/13/15
to Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
I stole the title from a Salon reprint of an article from Religious Dispatches, an excellent site produced by USC Annenberg. They have up an excellent discussion with author Timothy Gloege, who has just released a book that describes the rise of Evangelical Christianity as a consequence of a revolution in branding and a seismic shift in how Americans perceived themselves beginning after the Civil War.
My oldest friend is a Quaker (actually, he, like his brethren, identifies as a Friend; internally, Quakers refer to themselves as the Religious Society of Friends). For several years, early in our relationship, I made jokes about Quaker Oatmeal, going so far as to pointedly bring it on our camping trips. All that stopped one day when my friend told me that the Quaker Church had nothing to do with the cereal company. That the brand was simply that: a brand with absolutely no connection to the Church—at any point throughout its history.
Few people know the name H.P. Cromwell. He was the man who started Quaker Oats. Now it might seem logical to assume that Cromwell was a Quaker, but he wasn't. He was a Presbyterian And he was also one of the first to recognize the power of branding, and turned a commodity product, oatmeal, that was theretofore sold by measure from grocers' barrels, into a trademarked, packaged product with a brand identity that conveyed trust. Cromwell appreciated the public's perception of Quakers as trustworthy and simply placed a stylized image of one on the front of his container, imputing these attributes to his brand.
Cromwell's actions were controversial at the time—though they are certainly commonplace today:
A company’s reputation was once rooted in its owner, but the trademark created this virtual relationship with consumers that was pure fiction. The trust that is engendered by a Quaker has no relationship to the company itself. There are no Quakers involved in that... He bought the trademark, a very small mill had the trademark and he said, “oh, this engenders trust, so I’m going to use this to sell my oatmeal.”
Cromwell next directed his skills on the marketplace of ideas, specifically those pertaining to faith. He was president of the Moody Bible Institute where he “pioneered the techniques of creating trust in a pure religious product, packaging and trademarking, as it were, old-time religion.”
Before the Civil War, Americans specifically saw themselves as members of communities. Their decisions were made with the impacts on their communities in mind. Back then, much of the country's population lived on small family farms. Neighboring families shared resources (farming tools, draft horses), and collaborated (to bring in crops). And churches were the center of those communities. (Amish to this day exemplify these attributes.) Biblical interpretation came from ministers and pastors, in turn derived theirs from their seminary training. But all this changed after the War.
The rise of American Industrialism, as we headed towards the Gilded Age and Progressive Era, shifted Americans' perspective away from their community to themselves:
What shifts in the business world is there’s an underlying assumption that I make my economic decisions out of my own self interest, that everybody is doing that, and society is better off as a result, rather than have to make business decisions in light of how it might affect society—that’s not the question. It’s all about me and my rational choices and other people’s rational choices, which makes it into a game of sorts.
There is a concomitant shift in American religious experience: (especially) as people start moving to cities and larger communities, and lifestyles become more focused on individual needs and wants, Americans' connection to religion becomes more individualistic. Cromwell, through the Institute, takes advantage of that to lay the groundwork for what became the Fundamentalist religious movement in the United States. For more details, I refer you to the aforementioned article: http://religiondispatches.org/how-marketers-invented-old-time-religion/.
jack saunders
May 13, 2015, 12:11:38 PM5/13/15
to Brian Howell, Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
Just shows how that sweet, friendly demeanor we associate with Quakers will get you ripped off. Suppose some giant agribusiness came out with Catholic Biscuits. I bet the company's legal department would nix that idea, more trouble than it's worth. But the Quakers were evidently judged too mild and timid to file a lawsuit -- so go for it.
From: Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
To: Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:15 AM
Subject: [Ipse Dixit] Evangelicalism is a Capitalistic Construct
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ipse Dixit" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/b1545e16-7b94-4916-8286-6d7d2259d2ed%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ipse Dixit" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/b1545e16-7b94-4916-8286-6d7d2259d2ed%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Matt Fish
May 14, 2015, 3:38:59 AM5/14/15
to jack saunders, Brian Howell, Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
There's a book that's aligned with this subject called "One Nation Under God," by Kevin Kruse. Here's a lengthy quote from an interview he gave on NPR recently:
"The New Deal had passed a large number of measures that were regulating business in some ways for the first time, and it [had] empowered labor unions and given them a voice in the affairs of business. Corporate leaders resented both of these moves and so they launched a massive campaign of public relations designed to sell the values of free enterprise. The problem was that their naked appeals to the merits of capitalism were largely dismissed by the public.
"The most famous of these organizations was called The American Liberty League and it was heavily financed by leaders at DuPont, General Motors and other corporations. The problem was that it seemed like very obvious corporate propaganda. As Jim Farley, the head of the Democratic Party at the time, said: 'They ought to call it The American Cellophane League, because No. 1: It's a DuPont product, and No. 2: You can see right through it.'
"So when they realized that making this direct case for free enterprise was ineffective, they decided to find another way to do it. They decided to outsource the job. As they noted in their private correspondence, ministers were the most trusted men in America at the time, so who better to make the case to the American people than ministers?
"They use these ministers to make the case that Christianity and capitalism were soul mates. This case had been made before, but in the context of the New Deal it takes on a sharp new political meaning. Essentially they argue that Christianity and capitalism are both systems in which individuals rise and fall according to their own merits. So in Christianity, if you're good you go to heaven, if you're bad you go to hell. In capitalism if you're good you make a profit and you succeed, if you're bad you fail.
"The New Deal, they argue, violates this natural order. In fact, they argue that the New Deal and the regulatory state violate the Ten Commandments. It makes a false idol of the federal government and encourages Americans to worship it rather than the Almighty. It encourages Americans to covet what the wealthy have; it encourages them to steal from the wealthy in the forms of taxation; and, most importantly, it bears false witness against the wealthy by telling lies about them. So they argue that the New Deal is not a manifestation of God's will, but rather, a form of pagan stateism and is inherently sinful."
Haha! I have to laugh at the gall of so-called christians being so completely unchristian. Very Orwellian.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/643169683.1699868.1431533496085.JavaMail.yahoo%40mail.yahoo.com.
David Fetter
May 14, 2015, 8:53:36 AM5/14/15
to Ipse Dixit
To the surprise of nobody who's been paying attention, Christianity
has a long and well-documented history of mendacious and aggressive
acquisitiveness. This goes back at least to the time of Constantine.
http://www.amazon.com/Militant-Christianity-An-Anthropological-History/dp/1137282444
To call this, "unchristian" is to embrace an anti-historical view of
what Christianity has actually been and done through at least the vast
majority of its existence as organizations. Small, marginalized
factions of Christianity have existed, and still do, that aren't like
this, but the vast majority by population and power are, and have been
at least since 318 CE.
Cheers,
David.
>
> *"The most famous of these organizations was called The American Liberty
>
> *"So when they realized that making this direct case for free enterprise
>
> *"They use these ministers to make the case that Christianity and
>
> *"The New Deal, they argue, violates this natural order. In fact, they
> > *From:* Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:15 AM
> > *Subject:* [Ipse Dixit] Evangelicalism is a Capitalistic Construct
> > from Religious Dispatches
> > <http://religiondispatches.org/how-marketers-invented-old-time-religion/>,
> > an excellent site produced by USC Annenberg <http://annenberg.usc.edu/>.
> > Society of Friends*). For several years, early in our relationship, I
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/b1545e16-7b94-4916-8286-6d7d2259d2ed%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> > .
> > .
David Fetter <da...@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david....@gmail.com
Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
has a long and well-documented history of mendacious and aggressive
acquisitiveness. This goes back at least to the time of Constantine.
http://www.amazon.com/Militant-Christianity-An-Anthropological-History/dp/1137282444
To call this, "unchristian" is to embrace an anti-historical view of
what Christianity has actually been and done through at least the vast
majority of its existence as organizations. Small, marginalized
factions of Christianity have existed, and still do, that aren't like
this, but the vast majority by population and power are, and have been
at least since 318 CE.
Cheers,
David.
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 07:38:57AM +0000, Matt Fish wrote:
> There's a book that's aligned with this subject called "One Nation Under
> God," by Kevin Kruse. Here's a lengthy quote from an interview he gave on
> NPR recently:
>
> *"The New Deal had passed a large number of measures that were regulating
> There's a book that's aligned with this subject called "One Nation Under
> God," by Kevin Kruse. Here's a lengthy quote from an interview he gave on
> NPR recently:
>
> business in some ways for the first time, and it [had] empowered labor
> unions and given them a voice in the affairs of business. Corporate leaders
> resented both of these moves and so they launched a massive campaign of
> public relations designed to sell the values of free enterprise. The
> problem was that their naked appeals to the merits of capitalism were
> largely dismissed by the public. *
> unions and given them a voice in the affairs of business. Corporate leaders
> resented both of these moves and so they launched a massive campaign of
> public relations designed to sell the values of free enterprise. The
> problem was that their naked appeals to the merits of capitalism were
>
> *"The most famous of these organizations was called The American Liberty
> League and it was heavily financed by leaders at DuPont, General Motors and
> other corporations. The problem was that it seemed like very obvious
> corporate propaganda. As Jim Farley, the head of the Democratic Party at
> the time, said: 'They ought to call it The American Cellophane League,
> because No. 1: It's a DuPont product, and No. 2: You can see right through
> it.' *
> other corporations. The problem was that it seemed like very obvious
> corporate propaganda. As Jim Farley, the head of the Democratic Party at
> the time, said: 'They ought to call it The American Cellophane League,
> because No. 1: It's a DuPont product, and No. 2: You can see right through
>
> *"So when they realized that making this direct case for free enterprise
> was ineffective, they decided to find another way to do it. They decided to
> outsource the job. As they noted in their private correspondence, ministers
> were the most trusted men in America at the time, so who better to make the
> case to the American people than ministers? *
> outsource the job. As they noted in their private correspondence, ministers
> were the most trusted men in America at the time, so who better to make the
>
> *"They use these ministers to make the case that Christianity and
> capitalism were soul mates. This case had been made before, but in the
> context of the New Deal it takes on a sharp new political meaning.
> Essentially they argue that Christianity and capitalism are both systems in
> which individuals rise and fall according to their own merits. So in
> Christianity, if you're good you go to heaven, if you're bad you go to
> hell. In capitalism if you're good you make a profit and you succeed, if
> you're bad you fail. *
> context of the New Deal it takes on a sharp new political meaning.
> Essentially they argue that Christianity and capitalism are both systems in
> which individuals rise and fall according to their own merits. So in
> Christianity, if you're good you go to heaven, if you're bad you go to
> hell. In capitalism if you're good you make a profit and you succeed, if
>
> *"The New Deal, they argue, violates this natural order. In fact, they
> argue that the New Deal and the regulatory state violate the Ten
> Commandments. It makes a false idol of the federal government and
> encourages Americans to worship it rather than the Almighty. It encourages
> Americans to covet what the wealthy have; it encourages them to steal from
> the wealthy in the forms of taxation; and, most importantly, it bears false
> witness against the wealthy by telling lies about them. So they argue that
> the New Deal is not a manifestation of God's will, but rather, a form of
> pagan stateism and is inherently sinful."*
> Commandments. It makes a false idol of the federal government and
> encourages Americans to worship it rather than the Almighty. It encourages
> Americans to covet what the wealthy have; it encourages them to steal from
> the wealthy in the forms of taxation; and, most importantly, it bears false
> witness against the wealthy by telling lies about them. So they argue that
> the New Deal is not a manifestation of God's will, but rather, a form of
>
> Haha! I have to laugh at the gall of so-called christians being so
> completely unchristian. Very Orwellian.
>
> http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt-become-under-god-until-the-50s-religious-revival
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:11 AM jack saunders <jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Just shows how that sweet, friendly demeanor we associate with Quakers
> > will get you ripped off. Suppose some giant agribusiness came out with
> > Catholic Biscuits. I bet the company's legal department would nix that
> > idea, more trouble than it's worth. But the Quakers were evidently judged
> > too mild and timid to file a lawsuit -- so go for it.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> Haha! I have to laugh at the gall of so-called christians being so
> completely unchristian. Very Orwellian.
>
> http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt-become-under-god-until-the-50s-religious-revival
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:11 AM jack saunders <jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Just shows how that sweet, friendly demeanor we associate with Quakers
> > will get you ripped off. Suppose some giant agribusiness came out with
> > Catholic Biscuits. I bet the company's legal department would nix that
> > idea, more trouble than it's worth. But the Quakers were evidently judged
> > too mild and timid to file a lawsuit -- so go for it.
> >
> >
> > *From:* Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:15 AM
> > *Subject:* [Ipse Dixit] Evangelicalism is a Capitalistic Construct
> >
> > I stole the title from a Salon reprint of an article
> > <http://religiondispatches.org/how-marketers-invented-old-time-religion/>
> > I stole the title from a Salon reprint of an article
> > from Religious Dispatches
> > <http://religiondispatches.org/how-marketers-invented-old-time-religion/>,
> > an excellent site produced by USC Annenberg <http://annenberg.usc.edu/>.
> > They have up an excellent discussion with author Timothy Gloege, who has
> > just released a book that describes the rise of Evangelical Christianity as
> > a consequence of a revolution in branding and a seismic shift in how
> > Americans perceived themselves beginning after the Civil War.
> >
> > My oldest friend is a Quaker (actually, he, like his brethren, identifies
> > as a *Friend*; internally, Quakers refer to themselves as the *Religious
> > just released a book that describes the rise of Evangelical Christianity as
> > a consequence of a revolution in branding and a seismic shift in how
> > Americans perceived themselves beginning after the Civil War.
> >
> > My oldest friend is a Quaker (actually, he, like his brethren, identifies
> > Society of Friends*). For several years, early in our relationship, I
> > made jokes about Quaker Oatmeal, going so far as to pointedly bring it on
> > our camping trips. All that stopped one day when my friend told me that the
> > Quaker Church had nothing to do with the cereal company. That the brand was
> > simply that: a brand with absolutely no connection to the Church—at any
> > point throughout its history.
> >
> > Few people know the name H.P. Cromwell. He was the man who started Quaker
> > Oats. Now it might seem logical to assume that Cromwell was a Quaker, but
> > he wasn't. He was a Presbyterian And he was also one of the first to
> > recognize the power of branding, and turned a commodity product, oatmeal,
> > that was theretofore sold by measure from grocers' barrels, into a
> > trademarked, packaged product with a brand identity that conveyed *trust*.
> > our camping trips. All that stopped one day when my friend told me that the
> > Quaker Church had nothing to do with the cereal company. That the brand was
> > simply that: a brand with absolutely no connection to the Church—at any
> > point throughout its history.
> >
> > Few people know the name H.P. Cromwell. He was the man who started Quaker
> > Oats. Now it might seem logical to assume that Cromwell was a Quaker, but
> > he wasn't. He was a Presbyterian And he was also one of the first to
> > recognize the power of branding, and turned a commodity product, oatmeal,
> > that was theretofore sold by measure from grocers' barrels, into a
> > Cromwell appreciated the public's perception of Quakers as trustworthy and
> > simply placed a stylized image of one on the front of his container,
> > imputing these attributes to his brand.
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/No_not_like_oatmeal.jpg>
> > simply placed a stylized image of one on the front of his container,
> > imputing these attributes to his brand.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cromwell's actions were controversial at the time—though they are
> > certainly commonplace today:
> >
> > A company’s reputation was once rooted in its owner, but the trademark
> > created this virtual relationship with consumers that was pure fiction. The
> > trust that is engendered by a Quaker has no relationship to the company
> > itself. There are no Quakers involved in that... He bought the trademark, a
> > very small mill had the trademark and he said, “oh, this engenders trust,
> > so I’m going to use this to sell my oatmeal.”
> >
> >
> > Cromwell next directed his skills on the marketplace of ideas,
> > specifically those pertaining to faith. He was president of the Moody
> > Bible Institute <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moody_Bible_Institute> where
> > certainly commonplace today:
> >
> > A company’s reputation was once rooted in its owner, but the trademark
> > created this virtual relationship with consumers that was pure fiction. The
> > trust that is engendered by a Quaker has no relationship to the company
> > itself. There are no Quakers involved in that... He bought the trademark, a
> > very small mill had the trademark and he said, “oh, this engenders trust,
> > so I’m going to use this to sell my oatmeal.”
> >
> >
> > Cromwell next directed his skills on the marketplace of ideas,
> > specifically those pertaining to faith. He was president of the Moody
> > .
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Ipse Dixit" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/643169683.1699868.1431533496085.JavaMail.yahoo%40mail.yahoo.com
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/643169683.1699868.1431533496085.JavaMail.yahoo%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Ipse Dixit" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/643169683.1699868.1431533496085.JavaMail.yahoo%40mail.yahoo.com
> > .
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ipse Dixit" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/CAEyQXcw-xTYAaNpRQvD8XopPCKgWb8eqsFpedArDSyBZ2%3D8zgA%40mail.gmail.com.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ipse Dixit" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Ipse-dixit+...@googlegroups.com.
David Fetter <da...@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david....@gmail.com
Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Craig Good
May 14, 2015, 1:49:59 PM5/14/15
to David Fetter, Ipse Dixit
Onward, Christian Syncretists!
And did Constantine truly see a sign from the heavens?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3013146.stm
On May 14, 2015, at 05:53 AM, David Fetter <da...@fetter.org> wrote:
> To the surprise of nobody who's been paying attention, Christianity
> has a long and well-documented history of mendacious and aggressive
> acquisitiveness.
--
--Craig WWJGD?
clg...@me.com http://www.craig-good.com
Happiness -- We're all in it together!
And did Constantine truly see a sign from the heavens?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3013146.stm
On May 14, 2015, at 05:53 AM, David Fetter <da...@fetter.org> wrote:
> To the surprise of nobody who's been paying attention, Christianity
> has a long and well-documented history of mendacious and aggressive
> acquisitiveness.
--Craig WWJGD?
clg...@me.com http://www.craig-good.com
Happiness -- We're all in it together!
jack saunders
May 14, 2015, 2:29:10 PM5/14/15
to Matt Fish, Brian Howell, Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
This new book is very timely. Unmasks the Moral Majority as a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chamber of Commerce.
The Great Satan here is not and never has been morally permissive culture. It's COMMUNISM. Bad for business.
From: Matt Fish <mattfi...@gmail.com>
To: jack saunders <jack...@pacbell.net>; Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>; "Ipse-...@googlegroups.com" <Ipse-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ipse Dixit] Evangelicalism is a Capitalistic Construct
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages