Anyone willing to experiment a Rig

[Tim in STL, NS26Ue White O'morn]

I sailed a Great Pelican for about 15 years, it is a relatively small boat, 16' on deck with an 8' beam.  She had a sail that was a cross between a standing lug and a junk.  i am a firm believer in the junk rig.  The boat was fast for her size and jibing a junk rig is painless no matte what the wind strength is.  I have often though about converting  our Nonsuch, but i do not know enough about rig design.  I think that the mast is too far forward to simply replace the sail and boom with a junk sail.

Here is an article that just reawakened my interest:

https://www.pbo.co.uk/boats/winning-ways-with-a-junk-rig-81347?lrh=60290c7bdefad79c0d8abc4800f03b02496cfeb786c6f3ada242184ce882330d

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I await the replies of Jorgen Moller and John Newell .......

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

This is a topic that, on my budget, I can only afford to watch from afar.

I believe most boats are designed with the hull shape optimized for the intended rig, and I know for a fact that this is true for the Nonsuch hulls.   Thus, although it's possible that alternate rigs might buy other benefits such as convenience, I suspect it's probably very difficult to change the Nonsuch rig without degrading at least some aspect of performance.

Jorgen Moeller and John Newell may want to chip in on gaff rigs.

I'd enjoy hearing more about how junk rigs work.  I've never seen a explanation of how it works to come about.  The pictures make it look like the same issues as a lug rig, which can do it but has worse sail shape on one tack than the other.  Would anyone who's a junk rig enthusiast mind offering a tutorial?

I saw some pictures a while ago of another interesting experiment with rigs:

It is, literally, an inflatable sail.  A fan in front sucks in air to inflate an airfoil.  A variable height mast makes it reefable.  If you're willing to substitute a couple of switches to control those, it certainly reduces the number of strings to pull on your sailboat to the bare minimum.

This picture shows the sail reefed, not (despite appearances) ruined.  The next picture shows it downwind, the last picture shows it going upwind.

Like a junk rig, this design has sail area forward of as well as behind the mast.  I believe that's also the case with most rotating hard wing masts, as well.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Another collection of interesting material related to this topic is the work of Eric Sponberg, https://www.ericwsponberg.com, who designed a wide range of innovative mast and sail combinations for Freedom Yachts, TPI, and as an independent yacht designer.

Both people interested in alternative rigs and devotees of the Nonsuch freestanding rig might particularly appreciate his article on free-standing masts: https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-content/uploads/state-of-the-art-on-free-standing-masts.pdf

There are a number of ideas in it that may appeal to Nonsuch sail and rig tinkerers.  

He has some thought-provoking remarks about alternative sail shapes which fat-head sail, full-batten/full-roach  and/or gaff rig fans might find alluring.

He also has an interesting comment about wishbone booms, made while discussing the wingmast he designed for a Freedom 38 cat-ketch called Wobegone Daze:

"This rig sails pretty well, and the owner is quite happy with it, but I would like to make a few improvements on the design of the next rig. First, I would get rid of one side of the wishbone, discarding the port half and keeping only the starboard half. You don’t need a two-sided wishbone when one side is sufficient to do the work. This would cut weight, complication, and cost considerably. Also, with a double-sided wishbone, you necessarily have to mount the wishbone gooseneck forward of the sail track. This limits the amount of rotation that occurs between the wishbone and the mast because, unless the wishbones are restrained with keeper lines or tackle, they will hit the sail track, bending it or breaking it. If you get rid of half the wishbone, then the gooseneck can be mounted on the side of the mast and not interfere at all with the sail track. Eliminating half the wishbone solves lots of concerns."

I don't know exactly what Sponberg had in mind with "half a wishbone."  I'd love to hear others' ideas on what he meant.

Without saying that this is what he had in mind, it does remind me of the novel jib that I used to have on my Manta 42 catamaran, which had a curved boom in a pocket inside the jib. The device was called a Camberspar and I believe may have been yet another Gerry Hoyt neat idea.  It was designed to flip over as the sail came across so that the sail was always curved in the proper direction for the current tack.  This is a picture of another Manta 42 -- not mine -- that happens to capture it particularly well.  I've added a red arrow pointing out where the Camberspar can be seen inducing a curve to the jib.

  I was very fond of my Manta 42, and the Camberspar worked extremely well. 

So, Tim, if you're looking for an idea for tinkering with a Nonsuch rig, you might get in touch with Mark Ellis and see what he thinks of putting a Camberspar inside the sail instead of the wishbone boom around it.

[Tim in STL, NS26Ue White O'morn]

All very interesting Bob, especially the Camberspar.  Here on the Mississippi the channel is often down to about a one mile width, sometimes even less.  The narrow channel requires us to tack often, no problem for a Nonsuch but I think all of that tacking would have the Camberspar sawing through even the toughest of mainsails.  We are very happy with the performance of our Nonsuch, but I do sometimes worry about that heavy wishbone over our heads.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Yes, the heavy wishbone does make me wonder.  Someone in an earlier thread mentioned or suggested that the aluminum mast is great, but changing the wishbone to carbon fiber is a good idea.  So I wonder, where does one get a carbon fiber wishbone?  What do they cost?
   Do you keep your original (seemingly massive and heavy) end castings or does the carbon one come with something different and lighter?
   Does it rig up the same way?  (I'm happy with how the current one is rigged with the choker to move it fore/aft and reefing lines inside of the wishbone, etc.)
   Would the thing slam as much when jibing?  I only jibe in light winds and have four of those nice bungie snubbers on the sheet, but it still seems harsh.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Michael Jabara]

Yes, as the owner of a carbon fiber mast and wishbone on my 354 (33) and a prior owner of a 30, I can unequivocally state that the carbon fiber is a major plus for a number of reasons, including weight, strength and lack of any weathering or corrosion.

Since my rig was built in 1994/5, the carbon fiber is much thicker (estimating 2x) and heavier than what they would do today almost 20 years later. I attribute that to our builder’s desire not to underestimate the strength and capabilities of what was then a very new and unknown material. 

Brian, to respond to your questions, here are the answers:

Do you keep your original (seemingly massive and heavy) end castings or does the carbon one come with something different and lighter?

The wishbone is molded as one complete piece. There are no metal components at all. I’ve never dropped the boom, so I can’t speak with authority about the fore part, but I’ve worked extensively with the aft (see below). 

Does it rig up the same way?  (I'm happy with how the current one is rigged with the choker to move it fore/aft and reefing lines inside of the wishbone, etc.)

Yes, the reef lines are contained within the boom, which is hollow like the aluminum one. The prior owner of my vessel removed the second reef line, and re-rigged it so one reef line controls the mast reef tack (Reef 1 cringle) and the other reef line controls the clew Reef 1 cringle. I did not change this as it simplified reefing and eliminated all of the blocks inside the boom.

The choker works identical to the aluminum wishbones. It also has a single safety line and a single cored double-braid topping lift without mechanical advantage that goes all the way from the clew to a sheve at the top of the mask and back down to the starboard Spinlock clutch and Lewmar winch.

Would the thing slam as much when jibing?  I only jibe in light winds and have four of those nice bungie snubbers on the sheet, but it still seems harsh.

I can say with some authority that it slams exactly like the prior wishbones. There is no “give“ or energy absorption in the carbon fiber booms versus the aluminum; if anything, it might be less!

The clew of the sail attaches to the carbon fiber wishbone via a 60mm metal pad eye ,bolted to the inner molded crotch of the wishbone. For many years, I used a traditional stainless shackle to connect the clew to the padeye (now I use a Dyneema soft shackle). 

One day when I was sailing back from San Francisco to Tiburon, blowing 25 kts from the west and there is a wind shift that that always occurred around Pt Stuart on the NW corner of Angel Island. 

The boom was about 12 feet off the port stern, I neglected to haul it in inside the aft corner of the boat like I usually do and the 25 kt wind shift caught the sail in an accidental gybe and violently swung it over. I didn’t release the main sheet in time, and the force split the padeye in half, ripped open the two half-batten pockets, and threw them into the Bay.

The clew of the sail was undamaged, and most importantly, the boom wasn’t even scratched; a fine tribute to George’s constant desire to ensure the structural integrity of our vessels. 

I have attached two pictures after the repair. I replaced the original paddy with a 60mm Saddle Ferrule and Dyneema soft shackle.  

I have attached two pictures after the repair. I replaced the original paddy with a 60mm Saddle Ferrule and Dyneema soft shackle.  

I did learn my lesson that day and always err on the side of hauling in the sheet when the wind angle gets dicey…

I hope that helps your decision process. I don’t know of anyone who could make a replacement, but if you find someone, they are welcome to come to San Rafael or San Francisco to inspect and measure my wishbone as a build template.

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II   1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California

On Nov 19, 2023, at 10:04 AM, Brian M. Godfrey <br...@wildbirdshop.com> wrote:

    Yes, the heavy wishbone does make me wonder.  Someone in an earlier thread mentioned or suggested that the aluminum mast is great, but changing the wishbone to carbon fiber is a good idea.  So I wonder, where does one get a carbon fiber wishbone?  What do they cost?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/0c867378-3969-47a9-9295-1483315cc3fa%40wildbirdshop.com.

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Because a previous owner of my boat damaged the original mast while racing, but apparently had great insurance, I have a newer carbon fiber mast with the boat's original aluminum wishbone.

This is my second N26, and I have to confess that I shied off from upsizing to a 30 because I didn't feel like dealing with the larger size and weight. 

That said, I personally think that as long as our wishbones are properly maintained (i.e., taking care that the boom hangers, topping lift, and their connectors are all in good shape), they will scare us to death long before they kill us.  If not maintained, then the risks do indeed grow.

This isn't, of course, advocacy for uncontrolled jibes.  It's just a vote of confidence in the general integrity of the boat construction, rig included.  (Sails not included.)  

This is not to say that parts won't fail, as Michael's story illustrates.  But, in general, the parts that fail are likely to be ones that will prevent more severe damage by failing in time to prevent something worse from happening.   There are worst case situations where that's not true, but in general it's probably true.  Again, not advocating devil-may-care approaches, just trying to calibrate the risk levels.

Unfortunately, we people are more fragile than the boats or even the sails.  IMHO, the greatest immediate danger from an uncontrolled jibe is the sweep of the mainsheet coming across and slapping (or, worse, wrapping) someone in the cockpit.  Like Michael, I've had surprises which taught the importance of particular care in heavier conditions.

I can't speak for Michael, but being honest I'll admit that those surprises have taught me the same lesson multiple times.  Fool me once, shame on me.  Fool me twice, well, um, no big surprise.  

Avoiding over-relaxation, human error and distraction are as big a factor as maintenance in overall safety. 

Brian, I have not looked into the cost of having a carbon fiber wishbone made, but I suspect it's not cheap.    If any of the owners of the original boats know who it was, I hope they'll speak up.  I'm doing some research to find out, and will post if I do.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Brian.

Here is link to the website of Composite Engineering. They supplied the masts and booms for the 260, 324 and the 543 series of Nonsuch boats. They have also supplied replacements for a number of our boats.

Eric Sponberg talks about carbon fibre wing masts he has designed. One for a boat in British Columbia. A friend of mine built the mast on Granville Island. To get sufficient length for the mast he cut a hole in the wall between the workshop and office. When the mast was ready a group of friends carried the mast across the island to the boat yard.they had to hold up traffic for the move.  My friend said making the oven to cure the resin was a challenge.

Mark Powers