Nonsuch 22 repower

[stevenli...@gmail.com]

My 30+ year old bukh diesel saildrive died at the end of the season. Oil leaked and siezed. Don't want to talk about it.  Quote on a new saildrive is more than I paid for the boat. I'm thinking of closing the hole and mounting an outboard. Any advice would be welcome

[Joe Valinoti]

Who are you and where does the boat lie??

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: stevenli...@gmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 5:36 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Nonsuch 22 repower

 

My 30+ year old bukh diesel saildrive died at the end of the season. Oil leaked and siezed. Don't want to talk about it.  Quote on a new saildrive is more than I paid for the boat. I'm thinking of closing the hole and mounting an outboard. Any advice would be welcome --
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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

How big is the hole you'd have to close?

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Steven -

Happy new year. Along with others, I can feel your frustration and upset. It is palpable, frankly, but, sadly understandable.

I own NS 22 #56 MOUSTACHES, up in Toronto. It is one of the boats that was built for an outboard. It's powered by a relatively new Tohatsu 9.8 with electric start and electric tilt (well worth the few hundred extra bucks, especially if your back and shoulders are somewhat shot and are 70+ years old). The motor is mounted on one of those swing-up motor mounts. That way, it is a little further behind the transom, leaving enough room for it to swing up. I don't believe that your boat has an opening in the transom for an outboard to swing up, right ?? So, you have to mount the motor sufficiently aft such that it has enough room to tilt up. The boat came with this mount and an older engine with no power tilt. You don't necessarily need an articulated mount like mine (especially if you have electric tilt). You just have to make sure that there is enough space aft of the transom. There are engine mounts that are simply "spacers", like a box-type structure, that mount the engine around 10" (or more ??) further aft.

You'll get lots of suggestions and get quicker help and more responses if you let us know where you are, etc. and, especially, if you can take some quick photos and attach them to a follow-up. As Bob Neches remarked, it would be really good to know more about that "hole". I've attached a couple of shots of my engine. 

Good luck with this situation.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mike Parfett]

I suppose you could just take off the prop to cut down on drag, and then leave the saildrive as is (and switch to an outboard), assuming that the saildrive rubber seal is in good shape.  But then if the seal is also 30 years old,   it should be replaced for safety reasons, and that is not cheap or easy (as least on my Volvo Penta saildrive).   And it would seem to just be kicking the ball down the road, so to speak, since if you went with an outboard, there would be lots of good reasons to remove the saildrive and diesel.

Mike 

NS30 - #26

Port Moody BC

[Brian Monrad]

Consider going electric.  Saildrive electric systems are much better than shaft versions for having less propwalk and less friction, so they are much more efficient than the older tech gear reduction box and shaft system that I am using. 

Brian Monrad

Cattitude

Fossil-free NS 26 Ultra

Midland ON (relocated from Toronto via Trent Severn Waterway without using fossil fuel!)

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I was lucky to get a tour of the innards of Cattitude (Brian Monrad's boat) shortly after he converted it to electric. One could have performed brain surgery in the engine compartment. It looked like an installation by NASA. He knows about electric propulsion (as, to be fair, do a few other Nonsuchers. who have gone this route).

But .... we are talking about an NS22, not a 26. Given the smaller size and limitations of the boat (and its value), I just don't think that the cost of this entire system, etc., is worth it. I think (perhaps incorrectly) that electrifying an NS22 would cost almost the same as an NS26. and that'll buy you a few good outboards. I would only electrify a Nonsuch of 26' or longer.

All of that said, one could install a lovely and lightweight, silent, and clean Torqueedo 6 (= 9.9 HP) and its battery but, in the USA, that'll cost around 13 K. It would involve robbing a bank in Canada.

A Tohatsu like mine will run you around $3500. USD pretax. Considering all the numbers, I'd fix the hole and go for an outboard.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mike Jennings]

I once had a 25’ sailboat with an outboard and it was possible to steer the outboard. It was a dream to manoeuvre.

Also I am wondering how an outboard figures into the conversation about gybing. 

Mike Jennings.

NS005. Chancy.

Port Moody BC.

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

My biggest problem with gybing (besides being a chicken AND listening to the good advice of Ed Botterell) is having the mainsheet snarl on whatever is rigged on the stern rail. I don't really think that my engine (which sits way lower than even the deck) would get in the way of a flying mainsheet.

Or, did I misunderstand you ?

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mike Jennings]

You got it right, I was imagining an outboard dangling from the main sheet.

Mike.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 5, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

My biggest problem with gybing (besides being a chicken AND listening to the good advice of Ed Botterell) is having the mainsheet snarl on whatever is rigged on the stern rail. I don't really think that my engine (which sits way lower than even the deck) would get in the way of a flying mainsheet.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/4161370e-d7a8-45f0-ad92-a15af11ad2bbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Thor Powell]

Basically you need to feather the hole back 12 times the depth of the hole. Then layer in the glass and mat.  Plenty of utube videos and attached is a West System guide. If you get an outboard, get a long shaft model. I have been told that in the 9.9 range and below only Honda, Yamaha and Tohatsu manufacture engines, anyone else is a re-branded Tohatsu.  As well there are many electric motors to chose from, particularly if you mainly  day sail.

[Don Crossley]

In addition to Ernie's suggestion of the German made Torqueedo the, there is also the ePropulsion. It's made in China, with better specs, and cheaper, as are many Chinese electronics. I have one for my dingy. They have several models, including one that is specifically designed for a sailboat in that it is regenerative. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/2430da08-cb39-46f0-bc2b-dd36a36f86afn%40googlegroups.com.

[Don Crossley]

Sorry, hit send by accident... With the regenerative models, if prop is left in the water while sailing, it will recharge the batteries. Very easy to handle, quiet, no gas or oil, and very little maintenance.

Cheers,

Don

NS30U #369 Breezin'

Vancouver BC

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Steven -

Don is quite correct. ePropulsion makes a terrific line of electric motors, batteries, controllers and, very interestingly, "pods" (saildrive-type pods that contain motors). They have both 6 hp "outboard" types and pods. I think these motors would provide the same kind of power as 9.8 outboard. 

Unfortunately, the cost, even in the USA, for a motor, battery (maybe more $$$$ than the motor), the controller, etc.) would run an absolute minimum of $11 K or somewhat more. 

If I understand correctly, your engine and saildrive is shot and you have a hole in the bottom of the boat to repair. 

If it was me, given the size and value of the vessel itself, I would purchase a new gas outboard. I'd install a fixed outboard bracket on to the transom. A cantilevering bracket is strong enough but a fixed one is stronger. A fixed one costs a bit more than $100. while a cantilevering one runs around $300.00. The nice thing about power tilt is you effortlessly raise the engine out of the water as you sail and you have no drag. Sweet, trust me. I would purchase a Honda 9.9 outboard with electric start and power tilt. Cost - around $ 4 K.

https://www.powerequipmentdirect.com/Honda-Marine-BFP10D3XHT-Engines/p62852.html   

This is the most sophisticated, quiet and smooth engine out there. It'll hold its value and run for years. Or, go for a close second (a Tohatsu like mine - a bit more noise and vibration but a highly reliable and popular engine.) that'll run you round, maybe, $3200.

https://onlineoutboards.com/products/2022-tohatsu-9-9-hp-mfs9-9eeftl-outboard-motor

Any outboard that you buy should have an ultra or extra long shaft, not a "long shaft". If you go down this whole road, take lots and lots of time to very carefully figure out at what height you should install the outboard bracket on the transom such that the engine sits at the correct depth in the water, when it is running at a decent clip. It has to sit deep enough (but not too deep). 

Now that I mention this, I have to admit that having a cantilevering engine mount does allow one to fiddle with how low the engine sits in the water. Hmmmm ....... maybe worth the extra bucks.

That, in a nutshell, is my thought on all of this.

[Peter Moodie]

There is a good discussion about re-powering an H boat on Cruising Anarchy:

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/219392-epropulsion-pod-drive/&tab=comments#comment-7314112

There were a few teething issues but the owner sounds pretty happy.

Peter Moodie

Nonsuch 30U Catalyst 366

Sidney,BC/Winnipeg,MB 

[Thor Powell]

Most gas station gas have ethanol in it and given the marine environment soon you will have water in the tank.  I even noticed it with he Honda  2 I fill from one gallon Jerry cans.  Anecdotally I've noticed that  Tohatus's seem to be more effected than Honda's and Yamaha's by this. 

Some marinas sell pure gas and there are a few gas stations that cater to the old car and sports car market that sell 97 without ethanol.  I toss some K100 in just to be safe.

As far as "money no object" for e motors, this is what I would use. 

https://oceanvolt.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HouwSrzKvKU

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

While we were out practicing a man overboard drill in gusty conditions, the mainsheet snagged on the boarding ladder feet as we sat head to wind with the sheet slack. An outboard sticking out the rear of the boat would have been at serious risk. Snugging up the mainsheet once she was in irons would make sense.

Mark Powers

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Steven,

You have a lot of things to think about.

You have a Bukh diesel with a sail drive.  Is the sail drive leg okay and the diesel seized, the leg shot but the engine okay or are both shot? If you have to only replace part of the drive train it might be cheaper. As Mike from Parfett pointed out, if the seal between the hull and the sail drive leg is old it will need replacing and will not be cheap.

Bukh diesels have a good reputation. If you can do the work yourself you might consider a rebuild.  

Did you seek a quote from Beta Marine in the U.S.A. on a 14 hp with sail drive?  They are located in North Carolina and are very helpful. The cost might be higher than you want.

I  have not been involved in installing an outboard on a 22 Nonsuch but I belonged to a sailing cooperative for a number of years that installed outboards on several Grampion 26s and a C&C 27. I did not help on the install on the Grampions but I did th install on the C&C. On the Grampions  the back stay was split so that it attached to the outside corners of the transom. This allowed the transom to be cut down. The transom was then reinforced with U shaped stainless channel and the outboards were mounted on  standard swing down motor mounts clamped to the transom. The outboard could be steered and the standard controls worked.  9.9 Yamahas were used. With the C&C we did not cut the transom. The motor mount had two parallel pipes bolted to the transom.  A mounting plate slide up and down on the rails. The motor was attached to the plate.  We used a large screw to raise and lower the motor. This was turned with a ratchet or an electric drill.  The controls were difficult to reach and the boat did not handle as well as it had with the shaft drive Atomic Four. We modified the system so that the engine could be steered which required that the motor be moved further back. We bought longer cables and made a custom control arm to steer the boat and hold the engine controls. Because the boat had already been set up for gasoline were able to keep the fuel tank in the lock that housed the original tank. In bigger seas the engine would alternate between  the prop coming out of the water and power head being submerged. Overall the change worked for the club because the outboard was easier for new members to sue without causing damage.  The Grampions worked better with the conversions than the C&C.

On the 22 Nonsuch, I don't know if you will be able to make a cutout in the transom to match the one on Ernie's boat. If you can it is likely you will have to reinforce the transom around the cut out. Such an approach will allow you to keep the motor as far forward as possible which will help with weight distribution and reduce the chances of the prop lifting clear of the water in a sea way. If you decide not to do a cut out the closer you can keep the outboard to the transom the better.  You will likely need to buy longer cables and you will have to decide if you buy the remote control mount or if you strap the throttle and gear shift to the tiller. Most of the Yamahas had the shift lever mounted on the outboard steering arm near the throttle. Some other makes have the shift lever mounted on the side of the engine. That makes it hard to work to control engine. It is better to have the remote mount in that case. You will have to decide where you keep the fuel tank. If you want to put it in a locker the locker will have to be sealed off from the rest of the boat and be self draining.

Here is a link to a Tohatsu website that provides free shipping in the U.S.  Tohatsu makes extra long shaft (25") in a number of engine sizes.  Electric tilt does not appear to be available until you hit the 9.9 hp size.   9.9 hp is a magic number in Canada because at 10 hp and above the vessel must be registered. Below 10 hp registration is not required.

The 6 hp comes in extra long shaft, manual start and a 5 amp alternator. It weights 61 pounds and costs $1689.00.  The 9.9 with extra long shaft, electric start and tilt has a 12 amp alternator, weights 121 pounds and costs $2899.00. The shift controls are mounted just in front of the engine.  A very rough estimate would be an additional $1000-$2000 for controls, cables fuel tanks and motor mounts ( assuming you do the work yourself).

The ePropulsion systems are interesting. They have Pod drives (like a sail drive but the engine is in the water) that they rate as equivalent to a 9.9 hp. The costs is about $2900 for the engine. You have to add $450 for remote control and then $2000 for a battery that will give about 22 miles at 5 knots or $4000 for a battery the will give about 44 miles at 5 knots. I don't know if those prices include the battery charger. At 4 knots sailing you will get zero regeneration power and at 5 knots you will get about 250 watts.  So 4 hours of sailing at 5 knots would put about 10 miles of range back in the batteries.  You would need solar power to keep up with your house battery loads when you are away from the dock. The Pod weighs about 70 pounds and the batteries 105 and 191 respectively.  The 9.9 electric outboard would have similar costs.   Because the motor in the pod is in the water it is critical that the seals be maintained. ePropulsion seems to be less money than Torqeedo and gets good reviews. My Torqeedo experience has not been a happy one.

There are pros and cons for all of the engine choices.  The diesel with give the best range and the bets charging for the house bank. It also gives the potential for hot water.  A sail drive does not suffer the problems of an outboard with the prop coming out of the water followed by the head being buried in the water as you go through big waves. A gas powered out board gives reasonable range and quick refills but you do have to think about storing the fuel. Realistically you will need to have shore power to charge the batteries on an electric if you travel longer distances. A small portable generator can help with that. If I remember correctly Captain Mike on Bianca says he can motor at about 3.5 knots on a Honda 2000 portable generator. An outboard will have the costs associated with fibreglassing in the old sail drive hole. That is not a technically difficult job but it is critical that it be done right. You have to decide if you can do it yourself or have to pay someone to do it. 

I agree with Thor that OceanVolt is one of the best electric systems but it is by far the most expensive.   

Have a meeting coming up so no time to proof read.

Mark Powers

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Steven -

We'd all like more info from you - is the motor pooched ? Is only the saildrive shot ?

I agree with a lot of what this gang has to say. Personally, I think that Mark's quoted price for an ePropulsion pod, bought in the USA, is low. I think that it'll cost you more and so will the battery. I still think that any electric motor conversion will run you at least $11 K and, sadly, that just might be too much to pay to power a little NS22 through the waves (no matter how much you love the boat. If you are like me, you LOVE the boat.). Not being certain of your circumstances, there may be a lot of merit to repairing the drive and/or repairing the engine and/or replacing the seal. If impossible or truly unfeasible, in my humble opinion, a good gas outboard is the way to go. And, yup, you'll have to properly fill that hole in the boat's bottom.

Honestly, I see no need for major surgery to cut a big hole in the transom, etc. It would only be there to accept the top of a tilted engine. that's why I advocate bolting on some type of (mildly) extended transom. BUT (a big but) I did forget about something. All of the NS22 O/B boats have a heavily reinforced transom in the area that one would "hang" an outboard (the place where you'd "screw" the motor on). You can see this from the inside, down in the "unfinished basement" under the cockpit. It looks like 2' - 3' long, 10" wide length of good 3/4" ply heavily glassed in to the inside of the transom, making the area good and thick. 

I have attached a lovely and highly detailed illustration.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Sorry, I forgot. As a sailor of an NS22 O/B, I'd definitely go for a 9.8 or 9.9 O/B, not a 6 hp. Not to shove around a boat that weighs almost 6000 lbs.

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 3:57:56 PM UTC-5 Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C. wrote:

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Oh Ye of Little faith.

Ernie, I checked the prices before I typed my first response. I guess I should have included the references. Here is a link: 

http://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/resources/ePropulsion/POD%20Drive%20Leaflet.pdf

Prices may have gone up since the company did the posting. Steve is south of the Great White North so I used U.S. dollars.

I note that I left out the link for the Tohatsu motor. I think this is the one I used: 

 https://tohatsudirect.com/product/tohatsu-9-9-hp-mfs9-9eeftul-outboard-motor/

Ernie, you would know better than I whether 6 hp is enough for a 22.  It might depend on usage.  Is the motor for simply getting in and out of port? What distances and how much current do you have to deal with?  Have you loaded the boat down with every conceivable convenience and aid to sailing (like Ernie) or do you want to race and therefore need to keep the weight down?

Mark Powers

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Small computer security nit for Mark's first link:

    Try going to https://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/resources/ePropulsion/POD%20Drive%20Leaflet.pdf instead (note the s added to the end of "http").

Both links work, but https links have additional layers of security that prevent bad actors from inserting malware as data makes its way between source and destination.  (Sorry to insert paranoia, but dealt a lot with this in a previous life.)

That said, Mark, the e-Propulsion offerings look pretty interesting.  Thanks for sharing.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Guilty as charged, Mark - I have little faith. Oh pooooo .......

Fortunately, that isn't the case. These days, it's best to have LOTS of faith (in just about everything). Mark is right on with his pricing - I just didn't look hard enough.

OK - I'll cave (somewhat). If Steven's engine and saildrive are dead and there's no going back, just maybe an ePropulsion 6 hp pod + battery (at around $8 K all in) is doable. As Mark wisely states, it all depends on a multitude of circumstances that dictate how much power you'll need (or how much actual motoring you'll do). Mike on BIANCA and several Lake Ontario sailors have, one way or t'other, found umpteen ways to make their electrified vessels go for hours and hours under instant and silent DC fossil-fuel-free power.

If I could have afforded it i.e. had the "discretionary funds", and it was now and not 4+ years ago, I would have bought an ePropulsion standard outboard with that honkin' big battery and loved the clean, silent, maintenance-free aspect of it all. 

As there is a hole in the bottom of Steven's boat, it sounds like a natural step to "modify" the hole and drop this pod right in. Nothing could be neater. Or, based on Mark's discovery of an elcheapo Tohatsu dealer, fix the hole and go with the O/B for, likely, half the cost of electric.

I look forward to hearing from the poor victim in all of this, namely, Steven.

Ernie A. in Toronto

 

[stevenli...@gmail.com]

wow! I'm grateful for all the thoughtful responses. My boat is Dispatch #31. I'm going to go with the outboard on a bracket.  I can't swing the electric option.  I'd love to get/make a bracket that I can raise and lower. 

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 2:57:33 PM UTC-5 Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233) wrote:

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hey Steven -

If you want a bracket that you can raise and lower, I respectfully suggest that you spend the bucks and buy a good reliable one. They are "counterbalanced" (using springs) and this makes the motor really easy to move. I would absolutely not build this myself - it could prove to be a Herculean and frustrating task and I truly don't think that you'll end up with one that works as well as one built by outfits that have been doing this for years. Far too fussy a piece of equipment. And, a store-bought one will cost you a few hundred bucks and come with a good warranty. If I'm right, you'll have enough of a project to get that boat-anchor engine and saildrive out and patch 'the hole' without building this contrivance.

Here's a nice one for $329.00

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/marinetech-products--adjustable-20-hp-2-stroke-or-15-hp-4-sroke-outboard-motor-bracket-stainless-steel-11-lift--17446881

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Thor Powell]

If I was going the outboard route I would look at a Yamaha T9.9 25 inch and a 11x 7 inch prop.   Or a Honda 9.9 @ 25 inch. The Honda comes with 3 props options , 10 x 6 ,11.25 x 8 and 11.25 x 9

So you'd need to understand which prop is best.  I suspect the Honda 11.25 x 9 is the best, a Nonsuch 22 is at the higher weight end of outboard powered boats i would think.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

At our first rendezvous we motored along side of a 22 for a while. The 22 had a high thrust 9.9 Yamaha. We had a 13 hp Westerbeke. I had to run the engine pretty hard to keep up with the 22. 

Definitely need a prop designed for slow speeds. The standard props are intended for boats running at planing speeds.

Mark Powers

[stevenli...@gmail.com]

Dispatch came with a lovely swim platform. I came across a sliding mount from a company called Douglas.  I like the idea. I wouldn't mind keeping the platform, too.  I'd have to cut down on my gybing.

https://douglasmarineproducts.com/

[stevenli...@gmail.com]

Hey Ernie.  Sorry for not responding directly earlier. I'm hopeless with the computer. The engine completely siezed and the saildrive was already a bit fussy. Also a real pain to work on as all parts had to be ordered from Denmark.

[Ward Woodruff]

That outboard management system is the cat’s meow!

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

On Jan 8, 2022, at 7:42 PM, stevenli...@gmail.com <stevenli...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Ernie.  Sorry for not responding directly earlier. I'm hopeless with the computer. The engine completely siezed and the saildrive was already a bit fussy. Also a real pain to work on as all parts had to be ordered from Denmark.

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[John Alexander Stewart]

Steve;

I've kept quiet here. But random thoughts in favour of keeping your current config.

There is a Bukh facebook group - go there and look for "Bukh Marine Diesel Owners".

I know, I know. I love diesels and hate them, but I chose to replace the olde Westerbeke 13 with a BetaMarine diesel. The olde Westerbeke is now gracing another Nonsuch 26, which brings joy to my heart!

Harder to steal; one club I belonged to had some outboards taken by someone boating into the harbour in the middle of the night; chainsaws removed the transom around the locked outboards. I understand that the boats were scrap afterwards.(our past prez Ted can maybe fill in or call this BS as he still is a member of same club)

No flammable gasoline aboard. Lithium batteries also give me issues, but my wife thinks I'm paranoid. She's always right. Even if the evidence...  

Diesel contains something like 40x the energy of the equivalent weight of batteries, so if you need to go somewhere, refilling a diesel tank is easy, quick and can take you long distances.

I know Ernie and others like outboards, but in my past, I'd simply call them a PITA as compared to an inboard. 

My current boat has a steering pedestal, with controls at hand - no removing ones gaze from the task at hand; ask any pilot about this. A boat I had in the Med. had a tiller, but manipulating the engine was done with my right foot, again, while keeping situational awareness. 

The boat looks better without an outboard on it. 

Now, that's me and a choice I made. Rightly or wrongly.

We all make our own decisions, so whatever you do, please keep us informed. The NS22's are lovely little boats. :-)

JohnS NS26C 046 that might be getting a new depth transducer, stored in Bath ON. 

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Steve -

This thread is really getting interesting !!  I fully agree with your notion of getting rid of all of that crappy old dirty greasy smelly stuff. I'd only keep the Bukh if you were looking forward to rebuilding all of that stuff. Our boats aren't essential transport - they are there for us to enjoy. As such, some of us love to do major rebuilds and some of us don't. 

I do agree with John that the boat does look better without an outboard stuck on the back of it (but it also goes better with a nice power tilt engine swung out of the water with the push of a button). I do not go for that Douglas slide mechanism for the motor. Not one bit. Yes, maybe on a power boat but it is a huge (not pretty) piece of kit and, trust me, it's utterly unneccesary, considering the neat and tidy alternatives.. There is no need to climb out onto your swim platform to raise and lower the engine, etc. I never touch my cantilevered mount once the sailing season starts. It's set on it's second lowest position and I just tilt the motor up and down - right from the cockpit using the button on the throttle shift handle. It is so simple.

Once again ... a few hundred for the power tilt option on the motor and a few hundred for the motor mount. Plus, to be fair, you'll need to reinforce the transom where you'll install the mount and, of course, patch that hole for the saildrive. Granted, the Douglas mount may preclude you having to reinforce the transom (which is a job). So, on second thought, maybe it is the way to go (but ... it's SO big. It looks like something you would use to haul fishing nets up into the boat).

In the end, it's, of course, your choice. Best of luck with how you proceed and keep us in the loop.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

Has anyone mentioned the effect of adding that much weight so far aft??  It would seem to me that it would drastically change the balance from inboard to outboard.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Joe -

You make an interesting point but I would bet that when the idea of building 2 different NS 22s (the inboard with an 8 hp Westie and all the accoutrements 75% aft AND an O/B with a motor hanging off the transom) was floated (pardon the pun), there was no thought given to 2 different "designs" or even subtle changes, etc.

I don't think that these boats differ. Mine has a 125 lb. engine hanging (sadly) even further back than the actual transom, in order to permit it to tilt. The boat sits dead level in the water (even disregarding the 1000 lbs. of desperately required luxuries that Capt. M. Powers insists are aboard  .... ). She sails as flat as any other windsurfer with a toaster-oven and flat-screen TV and motors at almost 6 knots at about 2/3 throttle, still reasonably flat. Yes, arse-on, that motor isn't the saltiest, most traditional or prettiest thing but, at least, it's not Day-Glo orange. I do not authorize any photos to be taken of the bum of my boat (unless I take them). 

I've attached a photo of MOUSTACHES heading back after a sail. I had just bought my new engine and it was not sitting quite as deep in the water as it is now (it's about 6" too high in the photo). The boat looks pretty level. Personally, I think that re-designs should be routine considering the weight of the skipper, not the motor.

I single-hand MOUSTACHES almost all the time (as other club sailors are, wisely, too afraid to go out with me ... and my Sandra doesn't like to sail). My engine makes motoring, docking and departing an absolute breeze. It is locked into a forward position and the boat is steered strictly with the tiller. This model of my engine has no tiller and is run from a typical remote throttle with choke, key, kill-switch, etc., mounted on the starboard side. The engine is screwed onto the thick plastic pad of the movable motor mount (using the 2 typical large "screw" thingies that one finds on any motor) and is also bolted and locked to it and the rest of the mount. It is stealable (just like an Airstream trailer, an airplane or one's Toyota 4-runner) but it would, indeed, take a gorilla with a chainsaw and lots of poor judgment to attempt to do so. And, it's all covered up from prying eyes, in the winter (of our collective discontent) when the boat is on the hard. Motors that are not locked and bolted (and I mean bolted) to their respective boats do get swiped - a lot.. If you don't want your Toyota 4-runner to take a walk ( or a drive) use a "Club" on the steering wheel. They work, according to the cops. Besides, who would run to the "aid" of a poor vehicle being stolen when they hear a car alarm ?? These, days, you might be met with a gunshot blast - not worth it.

Sorry - I drifted off topic but I wanted to address the theft issue which is a valid point.

To sum up, I still support the idea of Steven switching out his existing power setup to something completely different, on a 22' 35= year old recreational vessel. I truly support the notion of electric power, on the right vessel, given it's use, etc.

Ernie A. in Toronto (where the temperature seems to swing wildly, from day to day)

[John Alexander Stewart]

Ernie - that's a good point about putting the outboard engine controls where they are convenient - I have never been on an outboard-driven boat wired in that way. It makes sense. I used to do a lot of crewing around the Niagara area back in the day and got to sail in some interesting boats of all sizes and shapes. 

When you have to turn around, reach down, fiddle with the throttle or reverse, that gets old fast. As does removing the outboard when sailing and stowing it (e.g. Sharks, for us Lake Ontarians) and one I used to race before the brain was fully developed - a Sprinta-Sport 23 - the engine was removed from the transom, engine-mounted fuel tank shut off (you only forgot that once) then slid into a locker in the cockpit floor when heading out racing. 

I do think though that in hindsight the space taken by the diesel could be better utilized as a wine-keg or beer-keg storage location; close to the cooling effects of the water on warm days, to help with the after-docking relax time. I think a keg of the BC Beer "Fat Tug" might be appropriate in a kindly way. ;-)

(on a serious note, relating to the "keg" mention above, I used to crew on a boat sailed by a very social guy who would invite anyone out for a sail; this was when I was below drinking age. My job was to sail and dock the boat (using his wife as my crew) when the owner got too drunk and passed out. Big responsibility as a teenager, and the "save the alcohol for when docked" has been my rule since)

JohnS, NS26C, no outboard for the dinghy yet, 

lying Bath ON, waiting for longer, warmer days.

[Joe Valinoti]

Nice photo, Ernie A. in Toronto.

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

The Douglas Marine slider is a more sophisticated but similar  concept to the system we used on the C&C. I suspect it costs more as well. Provided the rails have enough travel it is not necessary to tilt the engine to get the prop out of the water while sailing.  It will however move the engine head closer to the top of the transom where it will be more at risk of being snagged by the mainsheet.  A possible solution would be to make a bracket/cage that would direct the sheet up and over top of the motor. 

Mark Powers 

[stevenli...@gmail.com]

quick update on Dispatch's repower.  My wife, Maria, thinks it would be a shame to drill all those holes and hang an ugly outboard off the back so why don't we just get a new saildrive.  Besides, the swim platform is kind of nice. 

Now I ask you, what kind of husband would I be if I were to deny a request like that? 

The Yanmar came in about $4,000 less than the Beta.  Now I just have to figure out how to get the old engine out. I'm thinking of cutting an opening in the cabin sole. 

[Ron Weber]

Steven,

I didn't see where you declared your boat model. Lacking that information, I will offer my input anyway since my experience is with N22. I needed to rebuild my engine bed stringers which of course required removal of the engine. I removed the alternator and raw water pump so it would fit through the engine room access behind the companionway. I used a combination of a ratchet strap (heavy duty) hung from the forward end of each locker opening, and with a chain hoist suspended from a sideways 2X4 across the companionway hatch slide rails. Along with some foot coaxing, struggling and classic sailor words, I got it moved onto the cabin sole. I had placed a sheet of 1/4" luan board to protect the cabin sole. If yours is a 22, then this is the only practical way I can imagine, the bigger boats you will need input from those owners.

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Every wife should have a considerate husband like you.

Are thinking of cutting the hole in the cockpit sole or the cabin sole?

La Reina does not have a sail drive but when we pulled the engine we unbolted it. Cut of the exhaust elbow and pulled the engine into the cabin and then lifted it out of the companion way. I have not worked on the 22 but I am wondering if the best way is to unbolt the sail drive leg and take the engine into the cockpit.

I am disappointed that the Beta is $4000 more than the Yanmar they used to be competitive on the pricing.  Glad I bought mine a few years ago.

Mark