Re: Wave Rover II

[ken...@gmail.com]

Some of you may know about this very interesting project.  A 21' home built Junk rigged boat made for solo circumnavigation.  Check out Alan Mulholland's blogs on Facebook and YouTube videos for the complete story. 

Ken Julian

"Blue Note" NS26C#9

Fredericton, New Brunswick

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 6:59:41 PM UTC-3 ken...@gmail.com wrote:

[John Jenkins]

Neat looking boat !!  Would be tricky getting back on if one were to slip off,

John Jenkins, Nonsuch 36 #4, Captain Haddock

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:59 PM ken...@gmail.com <ken...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[ken...@gmail.com]

No kidding!  I can’t imagine a boat without a cockpit. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2023, at 7:58 PM, John Jenkins <johnboy...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Over and above the difficulties of getting back in, I'd hate to go to the mast on that curved cabin top.

I also question the safety of the hatchway arrangement.  It looks like it would be a headknocker and finger-smasher trying to exit in rough seas or strong winds from forward, and a good way to get pooped via high waves from behind into the interior.

It seems to have a flush deck with no cockpit, which strikes me as a recipe for discomfort from exposure to the elements.

I can't make out the tiller very well but it looks very close to the deck, which makes me wonder about the ergonomics of steering with it.  I wonder if he has any plans for a autopilot.  There's no sign of any windvane or other self-steering equipment above deck.

I hope he enjoys the ride.   A circumnavigation on a properly equipped boat is more work than I'm up for.  

And -- although, in fairness, it's hard to know from looking at a single picture -- this does not look to me like a properly designed or equipped boat for the job.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[ken...@gmail.com]

Yes, and there aren’t even side decks to go forward on. The guy is a seasoned solo ocean sailor though, with several Atlantic and Pacific crossings and has built more than one boat. He designed it with a Naval Architect to improve on previous versions with safety and comfort in mind!  Apparently they have sold over 100 plans as well. 

Very interesting guy to follow and not crazy at all:)

Ken J. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2023, at 8:38 PM, Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233) <rtne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Valinoti]

Well, my question is, what does it have to do with Nonsuches??

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[ken...@gmail.com]

Not much I guess, Joe.  Just another cat boat with an unstayed mast and an interesting rig. Sorry for straying. 

Ken J. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2023, at 9:38 PM, Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bruce Clark]

I have no problem with a bit of straying if it helps us to understand our boats better. The designer of this boat is highly experienced so it is interesting to see what he came up with. As people have noted it does have some interesting features. It would appear the solo sailor intends to spend most of the time inside the boat unless the weather is quite benign, which it often is if he is doing a coconut milk circumnavigation. This boat seems to be a development of Blondie Hasler’s original Jester which was a Folkboat with a junk rig. Interesting to compare this boat to a Nonsuch 22 for the stated purpose. To my eye, the Nonsuch has several advantages, such as being more comfortable and having the displacement to allow for a lot of ’stuff’ to be carried for long passages. Two serious disadvantages with the N22 though, one of which can be mitigated, one of which cannot. The N22 cockpit is too big. Getting pooped would not be a good thing. I know what it is like with a largish cockpit on a Bristol 45.5, but we cruised at 40,000 lbs so could take the weight of the water. We also had four cockpit drains but the draining was still slow. With the little Nonsuch you would need a higher bridge deck to keep water out of the interior, a totally reliable way to close off the interior as well. You would also need much better cockpit drainage. Finally, you could reduce the cockpit volume, by installing your liferaft canister, perhaps some diesel/water tankage (jerry cans). 

The other problem is much less solvable and that is being able to dramatically reduce sail area when things get extra sporty. One big advantage of a junk rig is that it is infinitely reefable down to one panel as the halyard(s) are dropped. Also, the sail area is low and remains balanced. With the Nonsuch, even with three reefs, you have too much sail area beyond 35 knots or so. I guess you could have a fourth reef, but the sail area is mostly forward and the wishbone is less supported by the sail. I wonder if you could add a second track and have a trysail? A related issue is that you can’t heave-to effectively, although this may be the same as the junk.

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I'm finding this very educational with regards to rigs and design tradeoffs, so thank you, Bruce.

For those interested in relationship to Nonsuches, thereres some relevant documents on the www.Nonsuch.org website, e.g., a 1991 memo on recommendations for modifying a Nonsuch for offshore sailing.  Found under MEMBERS, MAINTENANCE, then scrolling through the SPARS AND RIGGING section.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Randy Gadikian]

I am fortunate in that I sail on several different boats.  A couple of different Nonsuch, a couple of Beneteau, a Catalina and a Super Cat catamaran.  I find something enjoyable on each of these boats that I believe makes me a better overall sailor.   Today's discussion of cockpit capacity and small drains brings to mind the open sterns of the Beneteaus.  While I have never been too concerned about the small cockpit drains on my 26C now I hope to not lose sleep over it.  :-)  

A junk rig on Nonsuch might be a nice alternative to our ridiculous boom.  There, I said it.  

The boom on my 26 is 24 feet 6 inches.  The boom on a 30 is longer, but is not quite of the same proportions  of a 26.

Randy Gadikian

Phoenix 

NS 26C #37

Buffalo, NY

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

When I interviewed Mark Ellis for my Good Old Boat article about the Nonsuch 36, one of the questions I asked him was: if he was designing it today with technology developed since, what would he do differently?

His response was that his first priority would be placing the aluminum wishbones with carbon fiber.  He regarded that as more important than a carbon fiber mast.   The reason he gave being that the wishbone moves and the mast doesn't, so the important thing to do was to reduce the forces of heavier aluminum vs. lighter carbon fiber slamming around.

I personally have the impression that Ellis is right for a boat designed for coastal cruising and friendly racing.   Other rigs might make more sense for offshore sailing in less constrained conditions, but the price would be reduced convenience and performance with respect to the uses the boat was designed for.    Then again, my impression is that Ellis would not take a single-masted boat of any kind off-shore he believes that you want redundancy in an off-shore rig. 

FWIW.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[ken...@gmail.com]

I'm appreciating these open & brave (Randy) comments!  

While the wishbone boom was designed & employed for very good reasons, and many owners have I'm sure tuned them to very efficient function, it wasn't the case for me.  I struggled with getting a good shape on the sail and reefing largely because of the loading and friction on the choker, topping lift, and reefing systems.  Maybe if I had the benefit of an experienced Nonsucher around I could have resolved these issues, but I didn't so that's what prompted me to try an alternative. So I switched to a standard boom and fat sail as per John Newell and Jorgen Moller and others.  I'm very pleased with the results for my style of sailing, but realize it may not suit everyone, so that's why I think it's good to have these discussions and why I kept my wishbone boom in case I change my mind!

Ken Julian

"Blue Note" NS 26C#9

Fredericton, NB

[Val Aries]

I'm very curious to see a few pictures of your rig, Ken :)

On Nov 1, 2023, at 5:51 AM, ken...@gmail.com <ken...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm appreciating these open & brave (Randy) comments!  

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[William Evans]

Bob, 

Did you mean “single mast” or single sail off shore?

William Evans
“Companionship “ 30U #465
West River MD.

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[ken...@gmail.com]

Val - I'm afraid I don't have a very good set of pictures from after I got the rig working really well later in the season, but there are some shots and particulars shared in this discussion group under "Trying out the New Rig"  August 5.  Since then I can report that the gooseneck held up very well (thank God), as did the mainsheet attachment point on the hatch. 2 fiddle blocks control the mainsheet quite well. I did add a simple boom vang like John Newell suggested which isn't that necessary but helps keep the boom down when sailing with the wind.  I also ran the outhaul through the boom and back to the cockpit so I can adjust the foot tension and plan to run the topping lift through the boom next year so I can get it out of the way of the deep roach sail.  The 2 aft reef lines also run through the boom and back to the cockpit and the forward ones just back from the mast.  They work very well.

I hope to have better pics and videos next year.   

Email me if you would like more details!

Ken Julian

"Blue Note" NS26C#9

Fredericton, NB

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I may be putting words in Mark Ellis' mouth, but my impression was that his concern for redundancy on offshore rigs was about getting dismasted offshore rather than losing a sail.  It's much easier to stow a spare sail than it is to jury-rig a temporary mast.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Thor (26C Brentwood Bay BC)]

At a Rendezvous in Boston a 26 with a carbon mast together with a 26 with an aluminum mast did sea trials.  The aluminum mast was faster.  The thought was it was more flexible than the carbon and responded better to changes in wind speed.  Marc Ellis is right carbon fiber booms = less weight aloft which is  good thing

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I have always "felt/assumed" that aluminum is more flexible than carbon fibre. Furthermore, if carbon fibre bends "too much", it explodes into a zillion dangerous shards. Using it for the boom, on the other hand, sounds wise as one isn't asking or expecting the boom to bend, so .... why not ??

Mark Ellis is right ....... again.

Ernie A. in Toronto