Hudson River Gybe Video

[Paul Miller]

I had a friend out with me today and as we were running I thought I’d get him to shoot a gybe for me. Interestingly the wind was ~8kn apparent for the first gybe and picked up just a little to ~10kn for the second. With the wishbone a little ahead of the mast I was able to gybe in the lighter wind but in just a little more there was no way until I sheeted up to about 90 degrees to the mast.

I’ve noticed before that you can’t gybe with the wishbone ahead of the mast in much wind but wasn’t expecting to catch it on video.

Notice that the sheet is always well aft, completely clear of the cockpit. 

https://youtu.be/pFIxxHZYqNk

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Michael Jabara]

I used to do the Hudson River Gybe regularly in my NS30U when rounding the backside of Alcatraz to starboard, always to the great amazement of my passengers. Then one day, when it was blowing 25+kts, it ripped the sail when the sheet hung up on something. Nonsuches are fantastic boats, but clearly not a fun boat to remove and replace huge mainsails. Ever.

And I got older. And wiser. And stopped doing it. Lol. 

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS354 

San Rafael, California

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[Ron Schryver]

Just a word of caution..... After telling my wife there was no way that I would get tangled up in the main sheet; sure enough that's exactly what happened. With my free arm I had to turn the wheel very quickly to take the pressure off the sail and thus not injuring my arm. I've stopped helping the main sheet along from then on. Lesson learned.

Ron

Ron & Diane Schryver

"Alpha Waves" 1987 NS30U #393

Georgian Bay Midland ON

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[Paul Miller]

I’m actually not helping the sheet, just lifting the very bottom couple of feet to clear the pushpit. The rest of the sheet is well clear. I wouldn’t touch the sheet further up.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Mike]

Thanks for the video. Not something I do often but, always good to practice in the right conditions.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

biankablog.blogspot.com 

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[Joe Valinoti]

Even with a green racing crew this year, after several practice gybes, it worked fine.  The key is to have a clean stern rail and someone helping keep the sheet clear. 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Joe Valinoti]

Paul:  I noticed how your flag is attached.  Like me, did you lose several staffs by the sheet yanking them out??  I use Velcro now for my flag in addition to modifying the ladder and the holder for the outboard.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Joe Valinoti]

Nice Gybe, Paul:  I noticed how your flag is attached.  Like me, did you lose several staffs by the sheet yanking them out??  I use Velcro now for my flag in addition to modifying the ladder and the holder for the outboard as shown.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Paul Miller

Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2021 8:08 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Hudson River Gybe Video

 

[Paul Miller]

My flag staff went the very first time I tried a Hudson River gybe Joe, and it never got replaced. I have a swim grid so no ladder to worry about. The only place that my sheet catches is on the gate opening which is why I lift the bottom couple of feet of sheet to clear it.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Joe Valinoti]

Apparently you learn quicker then I, Paul.  However, I must admit when I first got the boat and in a solo race, I should have “Chicken gybed” but didn’t and the sheet grabbed my wrist and just about yanked me out of the cockpit.  No serious damage, but did go to hospital

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Paul Miller

Sent: Friday, December 3, 2021 10:05 AM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Hudson River Gybe Video

 

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[Paul Miller]

The main reason I had my friend shoot this video was to see where the sheet actually goes. It happens too fast and you are too busy in real life. The video reinforced what I had thought, that the sheet will stay behind the boat and as long as you don’t get your hands out there you should be fine. Remaining seated is good too.

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[Sprio]

I wish more Nonsuch skippers would film their moves and share them online! Well done Sandpiper!

Mark H. N36#25, NLD, EU

[Barry Connell]

No…I’m not gybing my N36. Too much sail area to lose control over. 

Barry Connell (Nocturne)

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Paul, that is a great video. I wouldn't dare try this as I have too much "stuff" on the stern rail.

How helpful this is, though.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[peter millington]

Paul,  as a new Nonsuch owner,  I want to learn how to gybe safely when the wind picks up a bit.  What are the options?

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[Paul Miller]

I’m probably not the best to answer this question because I’m a new Nonsuch sailor. I’m really a gaff rig sailor who has grow lazy as I have grown old. However the quick answers would be:

- Sheeting in while making the gybe turn, gybing the sail across a shortened travel, and sheeting out on the other side.

- Hudson River gybing ie: turning until the boat gybes with the sail all the way out, no sheeting.

- “Chicken gybing” which is not gybing at all but rather a longer turn to windward, a tack, and then sheeting out on the other side.

More experienced Nonsuch sailors can elaborate for you but any gybe on a Nonsuch should be taken seriously and probably not attempted at all with valuable possessions protruding above the pushpit.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

One thing that is, I think, very important to note about the video is that there appear to be bimini supports that are placed well back in the cockpit on Paul's boat.   Also, Paul may be new to Nosuches, but he is a very experienced sailor.

Those bimini supports would keep the lines much further back and out of the cockpit than on a boat that wasn't so equipped.  That really changes the game.   Without those, the mainsheet would run across the cockpit, rather than behind, which greatly increases the risk that something -- or someone -- will get tangled.

The Hudson River gybe is best performed by those who feel very comfortable reading the wind and very sure of how the boat will react to the helm.    From what I can tell, it has an interesting and controversial history.   On one side, it was featured in the original marketing videos for the boats.  The comments above illustrate that it continues to have a dedicated following among racers and/or highly expert sailors. 

On the other side, Ed Botterell, who built many of the original sails for the Nonsuches and was widely regarded as the expert on Nonsuch sailing technique, was dead set against it.  He wrote in a Nonsuch sailing guide that the Hudson River Gybe, "...if not done correctly [italics added], is still not (in my oxymoronic humble opinion, still not worth the risk for the small amount of time you save."    His position was, "The so called (by someone) 'chicken gybe' is a total misnomer."  He suggested that it be called either, "the sensible Nonsuch Gybe," or the "Stay-Alive Gybe."

IHMO, if you feel you know the wind and your boat well, go for it, keeping in mind Botterell's advice: "That means you don't just think you know what you're doing; you have the years of sailing experience to make the decision based on that experience."

Otherwise, in light to moderate conditions, I'd vote for sheeting in, crossing the wind, and easing out, i.e., gybing like you would in any other boat.  In moderate to heavy conditions, do a 270-degree tack, aka a Sensible Nonsuch Gybe.

Exact definitions of light, moderate, and heavy vary.  It depends on you, your boat, and your assessment of your crew.

My $0.02, actually worth about 1.15 cents after adjusting for inflation.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Paul Miller]

All good points Bob. Thanks for pitching in what I think is worth far more than $.02!

I posted this video because I had it and because there isn’t a lot of video around that actually shows what happens and where things go when this gybe is performed. I thought is might be a good bit of data for everyone’s analysis.

I’m comfortable with the manoeuvre but I didn’t  mean the video as any kind of endorsement or encouragement for others. If you are interested in trying it, by all means do experiment in very light conditions and with a clear pushpit railing.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Mike BIANKA]

I try and grab the sheet lines (wearing gloves) and hold them to keep the boom under control and gradually let it out as it swings through. I do this to control it's momentum as much as possible. Though I don't do the HR gybe very often.

[Mike Jennings]

I was under the impression that the purpose of the HR jibe was to eliminate the possibility of the sail slamming (putting a suddenly applied load) on the mast. By turning into the jibe you are making sure that the sail weathervanes on the other tack and the load is gently applied as you resume course. Did I get it wrong???

Mike Jennings,

NS005 Chancy.

Port Moody.

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[Paul Miller]

You are not wrong Mike. 

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[Val Aries]

Mike, you forgot your signature… 😉 

On Dec 4, 2021, at 11:33 AM, 'Mike BIANKA' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I try and grab the sheet lines (wearing gloves) and hold them to keep the boom under control and gradually let it out as it swings through. I do this to control it's momentum as much as possible. Though I don't do the HR gybe very often.

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[newelljc9]

After sailing my 26 for over a decade with the wishbone rig, I am firmly in the Botts camp. Gybing a Nonsuch with a wishbone rig is not worth the risk other than in light weather. It does not matter if you have the taffrail clear, the mainsheet can be lethal. In a friendly TGIF race  in the year I had converted to a standing gaff rig, another 26 gybed around the leeward mark. The mainsheet flew across the cockpit. A guest crew put her arm up to protect herself from it. It broke her wrist and she had to go to a hospital to get a cast. That was a wasted evening and not fun for anybody.  It ruined her summer.

This 26 did not have a bimini frame to deflect the mainsheet. Even if it had, The wishbone weighs around 100 lbs.  which generates a lot of power during a gybe which is suddenly dissipated if the mainsheet snags which it is prone to do. This puts stress on fittings and the mast. It does help to have the choker eased if one must gybe as that will reduce the forces at play somewhat.

The "accident" confirmed that I made the right decision to convert to a standing gaff rig with a 30 lb. 15' boom with the mainsheet safely ahead of the dodger. I did not want to put myself or any of my octogenarian guests at risk of injury. It takes the fun out of sailing. It is not only a problem for Nonsuches with the mainsheet in the cockpit. On the same TGIF a J 105's skipper's wife received a nasty injury from the mainsheet hitting her forehead. She is an experienced racing crew member.

Mascouche is much more fun to sail in any weather now I have fewer worries and a well balanced boat that answers smartly to the helm. 

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26 C1

Toronto

[Greg Silver]

Very interesting to see how you discovered coming out of sailing by the lee is hard to get out of. This can be a predicament. Before I got my Nonsuch 26 I sailed Cape Cod Catboats, owned several including a 22' gaff rigged Ted Brewer boat for about 17 years. I used and still use the Hudson River Jibe as a regular tactic. I have had my Nonsuch since 2001 and she has been in teaching and charter service since 2008 under my command. The HRJ is not hard to learn, but it requires practice to get confident. It helps to have a very clean stern rail to avoid damage. I use it often and feel very confident with it. Even if you don't feel like using it all the time (tacking downwind is normal for us in our typical charter operation and we rely on this jibe even in winds up to  20 knots - after that I am a chicken unless deep reefed). I now believe this is a tactic that every Nonsuch sailor needs to understand for safety purposes. In case of accidental jibe, you can use this technique to get out of it  with no harm or embarassment if you are practiced. Two rules: control your mainsheet - gather and throw it aft and out of the way: and use a heavy but controlled hand on the helm to get you pointed onto a beam reach as soon as your sail grabs the windward wind. You will come out fine.

Greg Silver

Misty Cat 26C #121

Cape Breton

[Katmando]

It’s hard to argue with Ed  “Botts”.   Not only was he a personal friend but also a mentor.  He told me not to bother with a spinnaker/reacher as it really did not improve the speed over water any more than which could be attainable by the main.  He also said that gybing a Nonsuch was not they way they should be sailed. Even in light air the risk was not worth it. Be kind to your boat, use a Nonsuch Gybe, a figure eight. I bow to his wisdom….

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." 

On Dec 4, 2021, at 15:31, newelljc9 <newe...@gmail.com> wrote:

After sailing my 26 for over a decade with the wishbone rig, I am firmly in the Botts camp. Gybing a Nonsuch with a wishbone rig is not worth the risk other than in light weather. It does not matter if you have the taffrail clear, the mainsheet can be lethal. In a friendly TGIF race  in the year I had converted to a standing gaff rig, another 26 gybed around the leeward mark. The mainsheet flew across the cockpit. A guest crew put her arm up to protect herself from it. It broke her wrist and she had to go to a hospital to get a cast. That was a wasted evening and not fun for anybody.  It ruined her summer.

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[Joe Valinoti]

One very good reason to practice the HR gybe, is that circumstances could occur where due to a sudden wind shift and proximity to nearby hazards, you may find yourself in extremis and need to gybe to get out of trouble.  I’ve practiced putting my 2nd reef in although I don’t ever plan to use it.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Katmando

Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2021 7:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Hudson River Gybe Video

 

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[Joe Valinoti]

You’re correct, Mike.  If the timing is off, it can rip the deck turning block apart.  I speak from experience.  Years ago, someone on this list suggested a bigger block would fix that.  Yes, that’s correct, but then it would rip it right out of the deck – blocks are cheaper!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Mike Jennings

Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2021 12:19 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Hudson River Gybe Video

 

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[Thor Powell]

About the flag. We solve the problem after several re gluing episodes of broken flag poles.  We have a rail mount and it works like a charm.  Mounted off the starboard corner of the push pit. Been several years and in spite of several concentrated efforts to lasso the pole it remains untouched

https://www.five-oceans.com/products/flag-pole-socket-rail-mount-stainless-steel-78-inches-fo-3126