How to support the mast while pouring and curing a Spartite collar?

[wwoo...@hdairnow.com]

I am getting a carbon fiber mast this spring, from Composite Engineering,  to replace my broken aluminum mast.  I understand the the carbon fiber mast requires a Spartite collar to prevent point loads.  everything seems straightforward except, how do I support the mast while installing the dam, pouring and curing the Spartite?

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

[James Moores]

Do you mind I I ask how much a carbon mast replacement is .   I have wondered what a carbon wishbone boom would cost? The original on my boat is 150lb So a carbon one would be half? What happened to make your mast fail, -lease share. Jim moores n33/41 Arawak. NC

Sent from the all new Aol app for iOS

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/48d8aa65-b9a1-4456-89b4-a446b3d3ab64n%40googlegroups.com.

[Sprio]

Hi Ward,

I unstepped my mast close to a year ago. Carbon fiber, build 2008 by CE. It was indeed "wedged" with the Spartite system. What I found was this:

- there were 4 wooden wedges placed, visible from the inside, underside. By this I mean, standing in the bow of the boat looking UP into the collar.

- that same view also supplies some information about how the Spartite system was applied. Namely, all voids were stuffed with gray "waterpipe" insulation foam. The stuff that is normally used to insulate hot water lines.

So my guess is that you have to play with the 4 wedges to get the mast in the exact right position. That would probably be - centered, same distance to the collar all around. Than stuff all voids. After that you should tape the collar on the outside to make sure pouring is easy and without spills.

I should also tell you that at fist attempt of unstepping, we were unable to remove the mast, even by force. We even lifted the bow of the boat at least 10 inches, 25cm, out of the water pulling the mast with a crane. The Spartite system would not let go. We tried basically everything: heatgun (carefully - just the metal collar), dish washing soap, oil, raw force. Eventually we unbolted the collar from the boat and cut the gue (5200?) to release the mast with the collar still attached to the mast.

Once on the hard we used 4 really heavy duty ratchet straps to get the collar loose from the Spartite seal and the mast. Spartite seal did suffer some damage and I'm thinking of replacing, not sure yet.

Another thing I noticed about the Spartite system was, when the boat was rolling at anchor and forces moved the mast from left to right, that the Spartite gue did allow some play. Only a millimeter but clearly visible when the mast was swung from one side to the other. I question the Spartite system is ideal for Nonsuch applications. I've studied the Spartite website and to my understanding it was not designed to hold free standing mast in position rather than make a tight seal on conventional keel stepped mast at deck level. I wonder....

If you gather some extra information, please share! 

Kind regards,

mark, N36#25, nld

[Michael Jabara]

Ward, 

If it would be any help, I am visiting my NS 354 (33') this coming week in San Rafael and could take pictures of the base and collar to show exactly how my carbon fiber mast was installed when built by Hinterholler in 1994/5.

I arrive 2/24 and could get some good shots off either Wednesday or Thursday, depending upon when I arrive...

Please let me know...

MIchael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354 #72

San Rafael, California 

[Ward Woodruff]

Mark,

Thanks fo the reply.

The inside of the collar is to be coated with Vaseline as a release agent.  Hopefully that allows the mast to be pulled easily later.

My boat came to me with a Spartite system.  I got rid of it because I thought wedges would be easier.  Now back to Spartite as recommended for carbon fiber to prevent point loads.

I figured wedges needed to be placed for the Spartite installation..  I see now how that was done in the case of your boat.

Ward  Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/4a36e8ea-e20f-41d2-8de7-fb3cf426d380n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Jim,

My mast failed at the joint.  It was blowing over 20 and choppy.  We had a reef in.  The sail looked like crap so I made a bunch of adjustments and I think I over tightened the topping lift by cranking on the choker..  I realized that was a problem and eased the topping lift.  Maybe 15 minutes later, the top of the mast fell backwards and just enough to leeward to miss the boat.

My insurance company told me they would send a check for over $50,000 45 minutes after they received the estimate. I'll have some minor expenses in excess of insurance.  

Fortunately, the mast failed on the way to the boatyard for winter haul out rather than while in the lead on the last leg of a race.  I received word Friday that the mast is likely to be in production soon.  Spring is coming.

Photo attached.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/1614334716.805914.1613929178780%40mail.yahoo.com.

[W C]

I own your sister ship, NS354 #71.  I hope to visit her this coming week, so I will try to get some pics too.

Barry

1995 NS354, #71

Swan's Wing

Urbanna, VA

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/c1dca4e4-9494-43bc-919d-40514be305f9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Jabara]

Hi Barry, 

Great to connect! 

I don't know if you have ever seen this web page but it has every NS 354 except mine. I've tried to reach the web page owner to add it, but to no avail...

Here's your boat with it's prior owner... https://pbase.com/nonsuch/vendetta__354__71__1995

I'm in the INA Directory, but my number is below if you ever want to swap stories, hints or tales of woe :)

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354 #72

San Rafael, California

(702) 562-7600

On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 1:22:39 PM UTC-8 blue...@gmail.com wrote:

I own your sister ship, NS354 #71.  I hope to visit her this coming week, so I will try to get some pics too.

Barry

1995 NS354, #71

Swan's Wing

Urbanna, VA

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 3:17 PM Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:

Ward, 

If it would be any help, I am visiting my NS 354 (33') this coming week in San Rafael and could take pictures of the base and collar to show exactly how my carbon fiber mast was installed when built by Hinterholler in 1994/5.

I arrive 2/24 and could get some good shots off either Wednesday or Thursday, depending upon when I arrive...

Please let me know...

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354 #72

San Rafael, California 

On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 10:09:29 AM UTC-8 Sprio wrote:

Hi Ward,

I unstepped my mast close to a year ago. Carbon fiber, build 2008 by CE. It was indeed "wedged" with the Spartite system. What I found was this:

- there were 4 wooden wedges placed, visible from the inside, underside. By this I mean, standing in the bow of the boat looking UP into the collar.

- that same view also supplies some information about how the Spartite system was applied. Namely, all voids were stuffed with gray "waterpipe" insulation foam. The stuff that is normally used to insulate hot water lines.

So my guess is that you have to play with the 4 wedges to get the mast in the exact right position. That would probably be - centered, same distance to the collar all around. Than stuff all voids. After that you should tape the collar on the outside to make sure pouring is easy and without spills.

I should also tell you that at fist attempt of unstepping, we were unable to remove the mast, even by force. We even lifted the bow of the boat at least 10 inches, 25cm, out of the water pulling the mast with a crane. The Spartite system would not let go. We tried basically everything: heatgun (carefully - just the metal collar), dish washing soap, oil, raw force. Eventually we unbolted the collar from the boat and cut the gue (5200?) to release the mast with the collar still attached to the mast.

Once on the hard we used 4 really heavy duty ratchet straps to get the collar loose from the Spartite seal and the mast. Spartite seal did suffer some damage and I'm thinking of replacing, not sure yet.

Another thing I noticed about the Spartite system was, when the boat was rolling at anchor and forces moved the mast from left to right, that the Spartite gue did allow some play. Only a millimeter but clearly visible when the mast was swung from one side to the other. I question the Spartite system is ideal for Nonsuch applications. I've studied the Spartite website and to my understanding it was not designed to hold free standing mast in position rather than make a tight seal on conventional keel stepped mast at deck level. I wonder....

If you gather some extra information, please share! 

Kind regards,

mark, N36#25, nld

[Joe Valinoti]

When did this happen, Ward??  I can’t believe you were overpowered with just over 20 kts of wind on a NS33.  I’m not sure how tightening the choker or tightening the topping lift would have caused the problem.  Why did the mast break anyway??

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAJfXiiVnTSD5AX7t_U9-Uw7G3Y8%3DEPwb%2BnpMMrFLAdCZXaRvvw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Joe,

I attached a photo of the break yesterday.

I'm not a scientist so I am not postulating further.

All I know is I heard a small noise aloft and watched the top of the sail fall backward and leeward.

The best part of the incident was that it was the last day of the season.  We were a mile offshore and 4 miles east of the entrance to the Connecticut river.

My friend and fellow yacht club member heard our advisory call to the Coast Guard and came out in his Towboat US boat to accompany us to the river.

We got the sail off the mast and the top of the mast secured at the first gas dock in the river.  Our 15 mile motor up the river to the boat yard was uneventful though we were 3 hours later than expected.

I attached a photo of Margery after arrival at the boat yard.

Ward Woodruff
413-847-0620 Cell

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/oo2p0CN3p2Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/BA64B81E89664B12A177A22426A2D8CD%40DESKTOPAL8QCME.

[Steve O'Malley]

Ward,

I am impressed by your insurance carrier’s quick response and check writing.  My current insurer is through boat US and reading through the policy not clear if it would cover something like this.  Would you mind sharing your insurance carrier?   I am currently looking into coverage by Pure Insurance. Thank you

Steve O

N26C #172 ANU

Marblehead MA

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Steve,

Safeco.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/85bdd66d-5eea-4212-9ec7-5d5d54ceb6ecn%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Valinoti]

Been dismasted as the result of a collision - before I got my NS30.  I’ve seen other broken Nonsuch masts and I’ve certainly been in the Connecticut river.  Am I to assume the bottom section is still undamaged??  If so, somewhere down the road there maybe a Nonsuch 30 owner looking for a good used bottom.  It would be great if it could be stored out of the way someplace.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAJfXiiWzDHHc2HdN%3DNjpcWBCX3cL04tv_LcEhrXwgKamO-U29A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joe Valinoti]

Steve:  Don’t know if Allstate writes policies in Mass, but give them a try.  When my Cape Dory was totaled due to a collision, Allstate was prepared to write me a check within 48 hrs.  I refused since the power boat that hit me was at fault and they were paying.  Also, I never needed a survey with them and I can go any where on the East Coast and the islands without a rider.  I pay around $500 per year.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/85bdd66d-5eea-4212-9ec7-5d5d54ceb6ecn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Joe,

The lower section is undamaged but some stuff is removed such as the aluminum extrusion that was glued and banded to the mast for the lowest portion of the sail track.  The turning block collar and tack collar are going to the new mast.  The section is for a 33.  I imagine a 30 has different dimensions.

We could probably figure out how/where to store it.

Ward  Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/18DADBA9817F43599286011F16CEF0B5%40DESKTOPAL8QCME.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Ward -

Having your mast bust puts you into a very elite group, I gather. It was interesting to hear Mark (Sprio)'s comments, regarding the 4 sneaky mast wedges from underneath and the unnerving experience of lifting the entire boat by the mast !!

You are not a scientist - I am certainly no engineer. When you discuss point loading, I guess that you mean that pressure on the mast, at the mast collar, should be uniform and not come from the 12 (I think) mast wedges, snugged against the mast. That is why they want Spartite used. Quite possibly, unless Spartite is used, maybe any warranty claim against problems that may arise could be voided.

I realize that petroleum jelly is the only "separator" substance that Spartite approves of. I do know that petroleum jelly does break down in time and/or just, sort of, disappears. It is not some kind of high grade synthetic grease (think tractor trailer 5th wheels) - it's just plain old Vaseline. Do you store the boat on the hard ?? Obviously, with the mast up, I guess. 

I was thinking of some kind of way of using nothing but wedges to fully go around the mast in the collar. I found a drawing of an NS30 mast collar and discovered that disassembled wooden clothespins just might work as small mast wedges to "fill in the gaps", as "different" as this idea may sound. I'm attaching an illustration. 

I'm looking at this in regard to you not being able to pull this mast out if you use Spartite, frankly, but it might simply be a goofy idea.

One other question - Is your boom aluminum and, if so, would there be a boom weight issue either with the boom hitting the carbon mast or just with the weight of it swinging around ?

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Steve O'Malley]

Joe,

Thank you. I probably should have started a new thread entitled insurance. I pay around 375 right now for ACV with Boat US the new quote from Pure  is 679  with agreed upon hull value of 30K and higher towing limits 5k vs 3k

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Ernie,

I searched for old threads using Spartite as the keyword before asking of the group..  In one thread that came up, Mark Fagelman's N33 Puff, now with another owner, apparently has a carbon spar.  Mark indicated that rather than spartite, he fit wedges closely spaced around the entire perimeter at the deck collar.  I guess you and Mark think alike.  I'll inquire of the mast fabricator if that might be allowable.

The petroleum jelly only needs to act as a release agent while the Spartite is curing.  Once cured, I do not believe the petroleum jelly is required.  Perhaps on N36 now in the Netherlands, no release agent was used when the Spartite was poured. 

My mast is usually pulled and stored horizontally in the winter.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/24a833c7-7780-4b87-9c60-949db86f64dfn%40googlegroups.com.

[Sprio]

Hi Ward, you could be right about the lack of a release agent when "they" applied the Spartite gue on N36#25 in 2008. On the other hand, you could be wrong also. Your guess is as good as mine. If I would to use the Spartite system again, I would also be certain to seal the collar to the deck with butyl tape. 

If the same thing would happen again (Spartite not letting go), I'd sure have an easy job getting the collar of the deck! 

mark, n36#25, nld

above: bow of the boat came up quite a bit, trying to pull the mast. Watch closely... it's quite a bit!

mast came of with collar still attached thanks to Spartite system

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Ward -

The very last thing that I would want to face would be a situation that Mark encountered, in Holland, where he had to unbolt the mast collar (that never, EVER wants to be unbolted - I know this, sadly ...  ) with the mast in situ, in the late fall, with the crane waiting .... yadda yadda yadda.

All because the Spartite stuck to the mast collar. The Spartite philosophy is that the Spartite should stick to the mast (no vaseline used there) forming a nice, neat permanent plug when the mast is replaced. You, then, would re-install the mast boot and the whole thing is watertight and the mast is held in place by the old Spartite "ring". And, to be fair, I'll bet this works well (but ... it's still scary). The idea that I'd be pouring a permanent "ring around the collar" on my new 50K carbon fibre mast mast would already have me sweating, to be honest.

I must say that I am both pleased and surprised that Mark Fagelman used a bunch of wedges (which, unless I am very mistaken) should do just about the same job as the Spartite AND allow the mast to be popped right out. You'd know that your mast is sitting in exactly the correct place because the original 12 wedges would be holding it there. Then, it's simply a job of carefully wedging the rest of it all. Even though Mark in Holland would notice a slight "crack" in the Spartite seal when the boat was really working, the pressure on the mast from the Spartite was consistent, just as it would be from wedges almost totally filling in the gap. I suppose that the only thing to be careful about is to make sure any extra "clothespin" wedges were uniformly nudged into place and that nothing was really rammed in so as not to put more pressure on one point of the mast.

Furthermore, the mast is round (which is great) and is uniformly (really) strong as opposed to a more ovular ot rectangular mast which MIGHT be weaker on the sides (unless this was compensated for in the construction of the mast i.e. thicker sides). I can see more of a "point loading" question arising from a non-round "conventional" mast. I know zilch about any type of real mast construction aside from what I just read, in the last few days, on the websites of several mast builders.

I can understand your mast builder (CE) being concerned that a boat owner would simply plunk in the new carbon mast, wedging it, possibly, in a non-fussy, point-loaded manner that doesn't apply uniform pressue to the mast.

I would never suggest to not use a proven product (Spartite) that has been around for a while and seems to work very well. I will state (gulp !!) that I would fear using it because I would never sleep, worrying that I won't be able to pull the mast because the product (Spartite) will not seperate from the mast collar because I used vaseline as a seperator and, maybe, missed a spot or ... ??

What about asking Mark Fagelman what led him to use wedges, etc. ?  And, yes, speak to the folks at CE about this.

Good luck.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ward Woodruff]

Thanks Ernie.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/8a26554c-0a66-414e-85f2-dadee613806an%40googlegroups.com.

[John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto]

A few years ago I made new wedges for my aluminum mast. I wasn't too happy about the flat wedge pressing against the round  mast as this gives only a line contact, which could result in a high localized loading. So I put a piece of sandpaper on the mast and rubbed the wedge against it until the back of the wedge matched the round mast. This load spreading effect could be useful for a carbon fibre mast.

John Barbour

Nature 26U

Toronto

[Ward Woodruff]

Thanks John.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/d487f300-a4dd-42c1-b3e4-009b4d9b6ed4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Valinoti]

Good idea, John!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

From: John Barbour - Nature 26U Toronto

Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 12:07 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: How to support the mast while pouring and curing a Spartite collar?

[Michael Jabara]

Ward, here are the promised pictures from Hobbes II

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II 1995 NS354

San Rafael, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 24, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Ward Woodruff <wwoo...@hdairnow.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAJfXiiUsrT9xtwPqBJk6LoqEu8wtsAiT6MrzK-geNiCe2SnU%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

Thanks Michael. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2021, at 3:16 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:

Ward, here are the promised pictures from Hobbes II

<image0.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

<image3.jpeg>

<image4.jpeg>

<image5.jpeg>

<image6.jpeg>

<image7.jpeg>

<image8.jpeg>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/8FCCD925-AE7C-4EF2-9B36-0BC5C28AE800%40redrockpartners.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

It looks like you have a Harken Battcar system- yes? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2021, at 3:16 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:

Ward, here are the promised pictures from Hobbes II

<image0.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

<image3.jpeg>

<image4.jpeg>

<image5.jpeg>

<image6.jpeg>

<image7.jpeg>

<image8.jpeg>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/8FCCD925-AE7C-4EF2-9B36-0BC5C28AE800%40redrockpartners.com.

[Michael Jabara]

Correct. Mid 90’s version. 

1 double Headcar, 4 Battcars and 14 simple Sliders. Two full and two half battens. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2021, at 5:54 PM, Ward Woodruff <wwoo...@hdairnow.com> wrote:

It looks like you have a Harken Battcar system- yes? 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAJfXiiUgQyyWhJ%2B9nsCmbHFv0Kx-3yTC3PGn%3DFJ_EemHOmQ_Lw%40mail.gmail.com.