Nonsuch insurance, spar coverage and a deodorizer question.

[Bill M]

Hello All,

It is all coming together and I will be buying a Nonsuch 30 Ultra. 

The insurance quote that I received excludes the spars, sail and rigging. Is this normal for Nonsuch insurance?  the insurance carrier they proposed was New Hampshire Insurance Co. and the premium would be $756.00 per year.

I've never had a boat with a holding tank and I see where I should put a deodorizer in the tank as part of Spring commissioning. I like the idea of the Thetford Aqua-Kim packets that don't require mixing but would rather use what I know will work.  What are the experiences that people have with deodorizers?

I appreciate the help I have received so far and I will certainly have more questions once I own the boat and start preparing it for launch.

Bill Mortensen

Name TBD, currently "Summer Song" NS30U #335

Mystic River Mudhead

Stonington, CT

[Joe Valinoti]

That’s great news, Bill.  I hope you will be joining the INA.  I use a product purchased from West Marine called “Odor Free”.  They are packets you just dump in the bowl before flushing.  That type of insurance is not one I’ve ever heard of.  Certainly the price is out of sight.  Mine is through Allstate and costs less then that and covers everything.  Neither do I have any restrictions of where I can go in the states or Islands.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Bob Gehrman]

My Boat/US policy is around $600/yr with a $50k value and no exclusions. 

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”

Baltimore, Maryland

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[r]

Hi Bob;

Congrat on the purchase...I just purchased a Nonsuch 26,  The last thing I want to deal with is the malfunctioning head and holding tank....LOL...  After a bit of research I came across unique this system u may be interested in,  A little expensive ,,,but.... for the type of sailing Im going to do,, just bay sailing I believe its perfect,  I will be capping off the pet cocks and removing the holding tank...a plus,  more storage space and replacing it with this battery oppered system....  watch the video in the link...  Zero Oder, Easy Disposal !   NO Problems   " LAVEO  DRY SYSTEM  "

https://www.shoptinyhouses.com/products/laveo-dry-flush-toilet?currency=USD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQiAv6yCBhCLARIsABqJTjbE4ZBD0K6-yjXW20T0NcoVRBUKCsoMcHHOakDiVfKVKHIWvHAWFMIaAlb3EALw_wcB

Take care

Ron 

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[Mike BIANKA]

The insurance sounds pretty expensive for a policy that does not include the mast and boom. IMO. For the head I use a products from Raritan  K.O. for the holding tank and CP Cleans Potties for head cleaning and splash a little in the bowl when I leave the boat for a few days. The products work extremely well.

"K.O. works when nothing else will. It is a safe, non-hazardous and non-polluting product which utilizes live odor-eating bacteria to digest the materials causing the odors.⢠A small amount of K.O. can easily keep a boat odor-free between pumpouts⢠Does not require adding tissue-digesters or other boosters to be effective⢠Digests liquids, solids, and paper⢠Requires well-vented holding tank to supply enough oxygen sustain the bacteria"

[wwoo...@hdairnow.com]

Hi Bill, 

Try Smith Brothers Insurance through whom I have a policy from Safeco.  Smith Brothers has an office in Niantic. My boat is bigger and the premium is lower than you indicated. 

My mast failed last fall on the way to the boatyard for the winter.   They agreed to pay for replacement 45 minutes after I sent them a quote by email for replacement. 

 

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Bill and Ron - Welcome, both of you, to Nonsuch ownership. These are fabulous mildly-old boats and you'll both love to sail them. If you haven't joined the INA, DO so. Aside from a cool burgee that you can fly, you'll be a part of one of the finest boat owners groups, anywhere.

Ron -  A most interesting toilet but, IMHO, far from the most suitable thing on a receational vessel that heels as it goes through the water. The last thing that I would ever want to be doing is to carry away individual "goodie bags" of  ... goodies ?? Every time the sodden thing is used ??  Nasty !! Or (and I may be wrong - it has happened), to avoid using a new bag per "deposit", would you NOT press the button to seal the soiled bag ??   What might that smell like ?  Even the cat wouldn't go into your head !!

A waterless toilet that doesn't require a thru-hull, hoses and a holding tank is a great idea on a boat. There are a few real tried-and-true ones (Airhead, Nature's Head, Sun-Mar, etc.) that use well-proven technology to make that bad stuff go away without the stench. They do cost a little more than your choice. Frankly, for this type of conversion, I'd go with a product that many, many sailors use and that doesn't involve this breathtaking mode of disposal. And, in their blurb, even they seem to suggest that, just maybe, this "unique" product isn't too crazy about "tipping" or leaning.

Bottom line - I eagerly look forward to the comments, on this particular product, from other contributors with more knowledge than yours truly i.e. most other INA members.

Bill - 

That insurance quote sounds quite high and I've never even heard of insurance that only covers "certain" parts of your boat. Do much more research and wait until a few more members chime in. I know that you can do WAY better. Do not accept a  policy that does not cover the entire boat.

On a "higher" note,, original Nonsuch holding tanks were aluminum and developed tiny, pinhole leaks that slowly oozed you-know-what, leaving the head, maybe the whole cabin and the entire engine compartment really stinky. We have arrangements for our members to buy replacement plastic water and holding tanks. I bring this up because there is a reasonable chance that you may detect a particular whiff down the line (or, like, right now !!).

If the toilet works OK and just smells bad, don't think of replacing it. Do replace the tank and ..... really spend the bucks ($12.00 or somewhat more, per foot) on the VERY best hose from the toilet to the tank and from the tank to the pump out and from the tank to the air breather. I learned from others and my own experience that THAT is where the bad smell collects and stays and GROWS. It's simple - the bad stuff leaves the toilet and travels through umpteen feet of hose (with plenty of the bad stuff, from the last 30+ years, staying put, right there - ugh) to the tank. The fortunate tank is routinely pumped out and, likely, the suction pulls debris from maybe a bit of the hose .... but the rest of it ??? Holy Catfish ..... 

So, if you do a switcheroo, spend a few hundred on the very best hoses you can find and NOTHING (I mean it) will smell.

I don't use the head that much and I feed it a few squirts of West Marine's ExterminOdor after it is pumped out so the water in it is a lovely irridescent blue. I have the liquid in a little plastic squeeze bottle. I bought a gallon of this stuff in 2013 and have half of it left. Maybe it improves with age (like a fine wine) ?  I changed my tank and hoses around 5 years ago. There has been absolutely not a snitch of a smell since (considering that, originally, the smell almost made one gag - no kidding).

Enjoy your boats, guys.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Bill -

I would pay serious attention to Ward's comment regarding Smith Brothers. He had a dramatically quick settlement of a costly claim. Amazing, actually.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bill M]

Thanks everyone! I will give Smith Insurance a ring on Monday! I have used them before and only left for a better car insurance rate after my wife had an accident. It's kind of a shame because the company I have had my boats insured through since 1985 when I bought my first one is who quoted me the $756.00. I think I will also try Boats US but having been in the automotive business for too many years I am not a big fan of Geico.

As far as the toilet goes I will stick with the holding tank and my question about the deodorizer is because the owner's manual says I should use one and it makes sense to do so. The boat is shrink wrapped and there were no foul smells in it at all. I had a porta-potti on my first J/24 and it did tip over and the last person to use it didn't close it properly. I'm sticking with a holding tank.

Best to all,

Bill Mortensen

N30 #335

Stonington, CT

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Adding to the insurance recommendations from the others above, I've gotten a good rate from Merkel that I obtained using Jack Martin (https://jackmartin.com/) as my agent.

In addition to the suggestions you've already gotten on reducing sanitation system odors, another thing you can do is upgrade from raw water to fresh water flushing.  In addition to reducing head smell, it also reduces mineral deposits and makes valves and hoses usable longer.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Bill 

Smith Brothers Insurance not Smith Insurance. 

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay , CT

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Ward Woodruff
413-847-0620 Cell

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hmmmm ....... don't they have beards and make cough drops ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bill Mortensen]

Ward,  Thanks! I was picturing the place with offices next to The Rocky Neck Connector. What did we do before google? 

Bill 

On Mar 12, 2021, at 6:42 PM, Ward Woodruff <wwoo...@hdairnow.com> wrote:

Hi Bill 

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[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

Adding to the insurance part of the discussion, I just opened my insurance bill from Boat/US - a 60% increase from last year, combined with a 15% reduction on the agreed value.  That gives me an eye-opening bill of $1,519 for hull value of $55,300.  The deductible is $0 (because of no claims in a long time) and it does cover the mast and boom.  They did not contact me regarding a reduction in hull value.  I have been aware that I could get cheaper insurance, but it was always a small enough amount that it did not make sense to pay for a survey.  While I like the little green reptile/amphibian in the GEICO ads, it looks like it is time to reconsider who I insure with.

Lloyd Herman

Rendezvous, 1987 30U

Port Washington, NY

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Re Lloyd' s remark that, "While I like the little green reptile/amphibian in the GEICO ads, it looks like it is time to reconsider who I insure with. "

Based on the prices I've gotten comparing GEICO to other policies across many years and boats, I think they're more deeply influenced by Gordon Gekko than by their own GEICO gecko.  (For those of you not around in 1987, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gekko)

And, by the way, although geckos appear in almost every warm climate, the overwhelming majority are southeast Asian,  North/Central/South American, Southern European, Caribbean, or African.  In other words, even the Geico gecko's accent is fake.

[Mike BIANKA]

Lloyd

My Boat U.S. (Geico) insurance went down a bit on my November renewal last year because of no claims. My cost is about $600 below yours. Though I have a $1000 deductible on my policy. My thinking is I'll take care of the scratches in the gel coat. But, want to be covered if a drunken power boater slams into me. :)

[Bill Prange]

I just transferred my boat insurance to be bundled with my home insurance and umbrella coverage with State Farm.  I own a 1987 NS 26U and insurance is $248/yr.   I had been with Allstate which the previous owner had used, and they provided full replacement costs of a new mast after it had become broken in a boating accident - and, the new mast is carbon fiber, fully covered by Allstate. Nice!

Bill Prange

Hawkeye, 1987 26U

Richmond Yacht Club, SF Bay

[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

RE Insurance again:

I sent a snarky e-mail to BOAT/US yesterday after I posted and got an e-mail today saying they have identified $695 in potential savings which would drop the premium to $824.  Undoubtedly, that will include a higher deductible, which I do not have a problem with.  Will call them as soon as I pull the bread out of the oven.  I have also sought quotes from my home/auto/umbrella agent, as well as Total Dollar (the agent who handles our yacht club's policies), Heritage Marine Insurance, and  the Gowrie agency which has a special program with Safe Harbor Marinas (where we winter store the boat in Glen Cove, NY).  I will let you all know how it turns out.

lloyd herman

Rendezvous, 1987 30U

Port Washington, NY

[Brian @ SV Serenity]

I got my insurance through US Power Squadron (underwritten by Progressive, who wouldn't insure me because I didn't have enough experience on larger boats).  If I remember, it was about $1200 a year, but my broker kept asking questions of me and kept adding discounts to the point that it was just under $800.  (And the renewal is slightly less--I guess I got all the discounts the first time.)  I'm limited to US and out to 75 miles off shore.  I was told that I can go down to the Caribbean, but just need to let them know beforehand.

Congratulations, and good luck!

Brian

S/V Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River MD

[Richard Têtu, 260 #5 Fat Boy, Lopez Island, WA, US]

Okay, I am getting nervous here. Again, I am so new to being a Nonsuch owner that barnacles have not even started sticking to me, but my insurance from PEMCO for our 260 comes in at $157/year. It will go up a little since we just sold our little Hewescraft (multi-boat discount gone...) and insured for $35K replacement value (we should probably increase that, correct?) but what are we missing? Help, please.

[Joe Valinoti]

Richard:  Is that for liability and hull, including all parts of the boat??

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Richard Têtu, 260 #5 Fat Boy, Lopez Island, WA, US

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2021 2:41 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

[Richard Têtu, 260 #5 Fat Boy, Lopez Island, WA, US]

Hello, Joe.

I just got off the phone with Pemco an hour ago, they will have a specialist get back to me, but that's what it appeared to be according to the agent. I did increase the value of the boat to $45K, but we had to use NADA to prove it. Again, I am a bit nervous. Would a $2500 deductible be the reason why it is so cheap? I do not have towing insurance in this package either. Would having a really good marina location help? Could the fact that we are in the middle of nowhere and that losses due to theft and crime are nil (my boat is two slips from the sheriff's slip) help, or is it a case that the insurer is clueless?

[Joe Valinoti]

Most interesting, Richard!!

 

Joe

[Joe Weinbrecht]

My experience,

Boat US Chesapeake Bay

1985 NS26C #156

Agreed value $27k

$400 deductible

$266.per year

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[Tim in STL]

Perhaps it is just one more benefit for sailing in the Salish Sea.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Apparently, Canada is a part owner of the Salish Sea ......

Being in Canada, in Toronto on Lake Ontario, my NS22 is covered by Skipper's Plan, a popular insurer around here. I think that rates, etc. are similar to the US. I have 25K replacement and all other sections (towing, personal effects, etc.) each up to 5K. My deductibles are $500. on the boat and $250. for each of the other parts. MOUSTACHES is insured year-around and is in the water for 6 months. I'm covered everywhere except more than 100 miles offshore of Canada and the US. Liability is 2 million.

Cost $411. and I've been with them for a while. Twenty five years ago, I HARD-grounded my poor Carter 30 sloop, causing major structural damage. Totally my fault. The adjuster had the boat repaired (18K in 1996) at Bristol Marine, a very good and fiercely expensive shop and I had her back in 8 days - I had to pay the $350. deductible. 

Richard - Don't be nervous .....   I am certain that your deductible is what is responsible for the low policy cost. These insurers aren't (that) dumb. They are betting that there is almost NO chance that they are going to have to replace your boat. Claims are rare, anyway, and all of these companies seem to have somewhat different pricing. Ask your insurer (innocently) about what the premium would be if your deductable came down to $500., just for the heck of it.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

That’s great, Joe W.  Any restrictions of where you can go??

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

When we had a holding tank we used KO with excellent results. But switched to an Air Head composting toilet... Would never dream of having a holding tank again it works so well...

[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

We are getting deep into the insurance weeds here . . . 

Ernie - you should talk to your agent about lowering your liability - $2M is a lot to have on the boat, since it does not help you elsewhere.  Get a $2M umbrella policy that also will also cover your home, car, and while you are walking about Toronto (marvelous place - good hockey team there this year!).  Then lower your liability on each of your other policies to whatever is required for underlying limits for the umbrella policy.  Could be substantial savings and if you do not have $2M liability on your other policies, better coverage.

lloyd herman

Rendezvous, 1987 30U

Port Washington, NY

[Greg Silver]

Richard, you've caught my attention to this thread as insurance is one of those dark arts that fascinates me.  I don't have any recommendations for you. From your situation, it looks like some very clever actuary has determined you are very low risk - and you have high deductible. So if you are comfortable with the sheriff nearby and the deductible, looks like you are golden.

My experience owning keel boats in Canada since 1980, with boats typically covered at market value and liability (used to be $1M but now $2m as needed for many marinas). I have always paid around 1.5% premiums  (give or take) of the market value indicated by surveyor's report. This has been for boats kept at a dock, hauled out 6 months a year, pleasure only. All these policies have been very inclusive for damage including due to failure of related systems. Fortunately I have never had to test a liability claim.  In more recent years all my policies have included towing services, usually to a few $thou per incident. I have a few boats, some in pleasure and in commercial service, and have had a few insurers, but in Canada, as I am a member of Canadian Power and Sail Squadron, I use their preferred broker and enjoy the discounts of Cowan Insurance for pleasure boats, and they have been great. I have had a few claims due to storm damage and they have been golden each time.

In fall of 2019 my wife and I had planned to sail from Cape Breton to Bahamas (not in our Nonsuch, but a cousin). While I had made lots of insurance enquiries and preliminary arrangements prior to September, I could not actually buy insurance after Dorian hit - without promising the boat would be hauled out in the event of a named storm. Which would be impossible if that actually happened while we were en route. The cost of insurance - without any actual coverage save hauling out in a storm, was over 7% of appraised boat value. From Lloyds.

In Florida, where we now own a Florida-registered catamaran and last kept it at a marina in Punta Gorda while aboard in winter, we paid more like 2.6%, or double the rates in Canada to Boat US (Geico) who was the easiest to deal with. With similar $2M liability. I questioned this high cost compared to our rates back home and they basically said it was a high risk area for claims. Understandable when you see the density of marine traffic, shallow waters and behaviour of some boat operators there. This year on renewal, when it was clear we were not launching from our dry storage yard, my premium dropped by almost 50%. So, we are covered for hurricane damage while on the hard.

It would be good to know where you are and what boat you have.

Best wishes to all, I am about 60 days to launch here,

Greg Silver

Misty Cat 26C #121

Cape Breton, Nova Scotia

[Richard Têtu, 260 #5 Fat Boy, Lopez Island, WA, US]

Hello Greg.

Thanks for the extensive coverage and explanation. You asked where I live and what boat I have; as suggested by another member before, it is in my top byline. We are buying a 260, which is arriving Bellingham WA late Thursday night. We live on Lopez Island, the first of the San Juan Islands you hit on the ferry from Anacortes, in the Salish sea.

By looking at your thorough explanation, I see that I may be okay with the insurance coverage we have. I am happy to have the sheriff boat nearby; having lived here 34 years, with 33 years as a volunteer lieutenant in fire/aid, I have a lot of respect for those guys. And as a teacher for all this years too, I have been grateful for their support. That said, from my paid and volunteer work, you can see I am in a diametrically opposite financial position from yours; this Nonsuch is a dream boat we waited to get for years, and as much boat as we can afford, so I need to keep expenses in check. Being dual citizen (Canadian/American) and having been raised in Canada, I appreciate the differences in rules, needs, and liabilities, as well as the fact that we live in a fully rural area, with the keys in the pickup outside and students having access to our house to watch over it when we have to go to the mainland for a while. 

So, many thanks for the analysis and explanations; I am glad I am apparently not totally out of line with our coverage. And I love the "you are golden" line, I use it myself all the time.

[Bill M]

Sorry this took so long. The best insurance deal with through Boat US and the lizard. $844 for a year with the coverage I wanted. Every insurance company his good until something goes wrong.

Bill Mortensen

Summer Song N30U #335

Stonington, CT

[Curt Danforth]

Bill

Just saw your post.

Welcome to Nonsuch ownership.  Will look for you on Fishers Island Sound this summer.

I see you bought your insurance from BoatUS (GIECO)

We had repairs done this winter due to storm damage from Isaias last August.

They were prompt at sending out an adjuster and quick at sending the check.

They did not question the costs as invoiced by Mystic Shipyard.

Curt Danforth

BENEFIT NS26 #181

Masons Island, Mystic, CT