Riding/Anchor Sail

[Peter Grabow]

Hello All!

I have been reading the previous discussions about a riding/anchor sail to reduce the swinging while on anchor.  

For those with a Nonsuch 30 who bought/have experience with the Banner Bay Fin Delta anchoring sail - did you buy the Fin Delta #1 or #2?

I contacted Banner Bay for some information and they quickly responded, and indicated that the #2 was better for a Nonsuch 30 due to the amount of windage created by our forward-placed masts.

Someone had indicated (it may have been last year, or several years ago) that they were able to purchase theirs on sale... if you are reading this do you recall the time of year that they have a sale?

Many thanks!

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ 

[Katmando]

If you want to stop dancing while at anchor, bend a line onto the centre cleat on the starboard side and fasten it to your anchor rode about 15 or 20 ft. From the snub. Holds the boat slightly off wind and results in very small slow movement rather than fishtailing...

Cheers

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Von.negut

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[Alan Steward]

Thanks Brian. Never thought of that, certainly going to try it.

Alan Steward
30C 144 MagnifiCat

[peter farley]

I have a riding/storm sail which is almost the same thing I use it on the mooring if the wind picks up. The problem I have with it, is the tack. I tie the clew off to the end of the boom and then pull it up with the halyard.. I tried getting the tack tied off to at the mast or the front cleat but that is too much line and it starts to luff. So I have a bridle holding it down to the mid cleats. The problem with that is you have keep going under those lines to forward. Before you spend all the money make sure you know how it will be tied off and that you are good with it.

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry 30U #328

Keyport NJ

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that advice!! 

I knew to do this as an anchor bridle, but to the stern cleat, so one can point the bow into the swells rather than the wind when they are offset, but didn't know about this to prevent riding around when on anchor.

I will try this before investing any boat $'s in another method.

My anchor rode is only 30' of chain, then 150' of line... suggestions on how to get the mid-ship cleated line to hold in place on the anchor rode? 

Would a 'Rolling Hitch' knot work or will it slide because the angle from rode to midship cleat is too great?

Peter

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 1:34:51 AM UTC-5, Katmando wrote:

If you want to stop dancing while at anchor, bend a line onto the centre cleat on the starboard side and fasten it to your anchor rode about 15 or 20 ft. From the snub. Holds the boat slightly off wind and results in very small slow movement rather than fishtailing...

Cheers

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Von.negut

On Feb 6, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Peter Grabow <pke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello All!

I have been reading the previous discussions about a riding/anchor sail to reduce the swinging while on anchor.  

For those with a Nonsuch 30 who bought/have experience with the Banner Bay Fin Delta anchoring sail - did you buy the Fin Delta #1 or #2?

I contacted Banner Bay for some information and they quickly responded, and indicated that the #2 was better for a Nonsuch 30 due to the amount of windage created by our forward-placed masts.

Someone had indicated (it may have been last year, or several years ago) that they were able to purchase theirs on sale... if you are reading this do you recall the time of year that they have a sale?

Many thanks!

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ 

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[Peter Grabow]

Hi Peter.

Thank you for the cautionary advice.

Banner Bay (the maker of the riding sail I am considering) provided some details on how to make sure the aft cleated lines would clear my Bimini set-up prior to placing an order.  This seems to be the only concern about the lines on this particular set up, but I will heed your advice and check all of the connections prior to purchasing.

Peter

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

I attach the clew to a forward cleat and  the tack to the end of the boom tighten  the clew up  then haul up using the spare halyard ...  I often have to re-tighten the clew...

I use the small Sail Rite riding sail and it works well. Particularly if the wind is gusty at anchor is does reduce the swing

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 12:45:05 PM UTC-8, peter farley wrote

[Larry Deering]

You might like to try my method for using a riding sail. I use a triangulation line to keep the boom from swinging, and ease the choker before hoisting the riding sail. Then one clew line is pulled forward and tied tightly to the mast. Then, two clew sheets are brought to the respective mid-ship cleats. Now crank in the choker to further tighten the sail. Triangulating the tack (boom) and the clew to the boat really helps quiet the boat, reducing the tendency for the leading edge of the sail to fall off one side to the other.

I'm a little reluctant to call the leading edge of the sail the leach, aft end the clew, and forward end the tack. However the sail does look like a jib flown backwards.

Larry and MaryAnn Deering

NS36 #31 Bellport NY

[Ed]

Thanks for your suggestion, “Thinking outside the box”.

Looking forward to the next windy night at anchor to give your solution a try.  What are the dimensions of your riding sail?  A picture might be helpful particularly given the confusion over tack & clew with such sails.

Ed Strazzini

PELICAN - NS33 #36

Deltaville, VA

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2020, at 13:53, Larry Deering <W2...@optonline.net> wrote:



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[Larry Deering]

I'm going to be off-line for a few days, but here's a start on the 
explanation...

The riding sail is by Halsey, but it's 50 miles away on the boat under 
cover for the winter. The sail looks like a jib, it only differs in how 
it's used. The "luff" has a heavy duty quick release shackle on the 
"tack" to connect to the boom, and bronze snap hooks to hank the "luff" 
onto the backstay. The halyard hoists the sail on the backstay. Sheets 
are tied to the "clew". If the sheets are eased the sail would flow aft 
like a mizzen sail on a yawl. However, the sheets are trimmed forward, 
so the sail is reversed, i.e. the "leach" is now forward, and the "luff" 
is aft, attached to the backstay. I don't like reversing the 
terminology, as every sail I've ever used had the luff forward and the 
clew aft, but it makes sense looking at the sail.

The business with the triangulation of the boom and sheets is to 
reference the leading edge to the boat,  and to steady the trailing 
edge. The tighter the better, and the choker rally will add that little 
extra. Tying the sail to the wishbone will let the sail swing more 
causing the boat to do the same. If the leading edge is not tight it can 
make the swinging worse in a breeze. Going on deck at night in foul 
weather gear in a rising gale was the mother-of-invention for me!


Larry and MaryAnn Deering

NS36 #31 Bellport NY

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 9:44:10 PM UTC-5, Ed Strazzini wrote:

Thanks for your suggestion, “Thinking outside the box”.

Looking forward to the next windy night at anchor to give your solution a try.  What are the dimensions of your riding sail?  A picture might be helpful particularly given the confusion over tack & clew with such sails.

Ed Strazzini

PELICAN - NS33 #36

Deltaville, VA

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2020, at 13:53, Larry Deering <W2...@optonline.net> wrote:



You might like to try my method for using a riding sail. I use a triangulation line to keep the boom from swinging, and ease the choker before hoisting the riding sail. Then one clew line is pulled forward and tied tightly to the mast. Then, two clew sheets are brought to the respective mid-ship cleats. Now crank in the choker to further tighten the sail. Triangulating the tack (boom) and the clew to the boat really helps quiet the boat, reducing the tendency for the leading edge of the sail to fall off one side to the other.

I'm a little reluctant to call the leading edge of the sail the leach, aft end the clew, and forward end the tack. However the sail does look like a jib flown backwards.

Larry and MaryAnn Deering

NS36 #31 Bellport NY

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[Bob Illingworth]

Is this the sort of sail arrangement we are talking about?

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 (GBR1262T)

Moored Brightlingsea, UK cruising the rivers of East Anglia and the North Sea.

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[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Thor.

I looked at the Sail Rite riding sail, but as I have no sewing skills, or a sewing machine, I've ruled it out for now.

Peter

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Brian,

I was able to try your method to stop the swinging on anchor a couple weeks ago.  At first is seemed to work well. Then the boat swung past the mid-point and the anchor line was pointed off the portside of the bow, and the line that was bent onto the anchor rode was now under the hull... eventually the boat came back around to having the anchor rode off the starboard side, but it wouldn't stay there.  

Yes, it did seem to slow down the swinging, but it didn't keep the anchor rode out to starboard... am I expecting too much? or am I doing something wrong? Or both?

I've attached a photo of the line in position...

1) I had to use two lengths of line to make it reach mid-ship when attached about 15 to 20' down the anchor rode.  Was I using too much line? I wasn't sure how great of an angle to use

2) I used a Shockle, and a Shockle's 'line-grabber' to hold onto the anchor rode (this worked well, no slipping, and easy to deploy/remove). I clipped the Shockle's carabiner onto the eye-splice of the line that extended to mid-ship.  Fairly easy to set up this way.  Though the Shockle stretches, it was under load as it was directly attached to the anchor rode. It wasn't set up as it would be for docking.

3) Overnight and the next day, the winds became very heavy, and we were swinging more - maybe not as much as without the bridle, but still quite a bit...  Is there a point with the wind velocity that this set-up becomes no longer useful?

Thanks!

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 1:34:51 AM UTC-5, Katmando wrote:

If you want to stop dancing while at anchor, bend a line onto the centre cleat on the starboard side and fasten it to your anchor rode about 15 or 20 ft. From the snub. Holds the boat slightly off wind and results in very small slow movement rather than fishtailing...

Cheers

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Von.negut

On Feb 6, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Peter Grabow <pke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello All!

I have been reading the previous discussions about a riding/anchor sail to reduce the swinging while on anchor.  

For those with a Nonsuch 30 who bought/have experience with the Banner Bay Fin Delta anchoring sail - did you buy the Fin Delta #1 or #2?

I contacted Banner Bay for some information and they quickly responded, and indicated that the #2 was better for a Nonsuch 30 due to the amount of windage created by our forward-placed masts.

Someone had indicated (it may have been last year, or several years ago) that they were able to purchase theirs on sale... if you are reading this do you recall the time of year that they have a sale?

Many thanks!

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ 

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[Katmando]

Hello Peter, I don’t use that much line. The idea is just to get the nose a few degrees off the wind to stop the oscilation. Try a shorter line to just above or at the water line..

Cheers

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Von.negut

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<20200524_185708[1].jpg>

[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Brian.  I will try the shorter line the next time we are out overnight and will report back.

Peter

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ

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<20200524_185708[1].jpg>

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Brian.

As you suggested, I shortened the line from mid-ship to anchor rode and made it tighter (not tight) than before, and raised the attachment point on the anchor rode to above the water level, about 10' out from the bow pulpit, not 20' like before.

Again, all seemed good for several hours, and then all of a sudden we began to swing past the mid-point and the anchor bridle was going under the bow.  The wind speed had not changed, though the direction had shifted slightly.  It then continued to swing back and forth, though not as violently as it does with out the added anchor-bridle. Overnight the winds picked up considerably and we swung in wide arcs.

So - what am I doing wrong?

Do I need to tighten the bridle line even more?

Should I turn the rudder to point the bow away from the wind (I tried this at one point, didn't seem to make a difference).

My sail is secured on the aft end by a line to the starboard stern cleat so it won't swing back and forth. Could the aft end being slightly off to starboard be contributing to the swinging?

Not sure why it seems work for a while and then reverts back to swinging...

Any and all additional input is most welcome!!

Thanks,

Peter Grabow 

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

 

On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 5:25:07 PM UTC-4, Katmando wrote:

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<20200524_185708[1].jpg>

[Katmando]

Great data Peter, let’s ask the other members to chip in.  First inquiry is the wishbone pulled over on the same or opposite direction? 

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a Nonsuch is reason for being more cheerful than most."

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[Jim]

Does your boat need this sail does she sail on on Ankor? I have not Ankor Ed my boat out yet? Jim Moores N33-41 Arawak 

James P. Moores

On Jun 20, 2020, at 8:38 PM, Katmando <katm...@rogers.com> wrote:

Great data Peter, let’s ask the other members to chip in.  First inquiry is the wishbone pulled over on the same or opposite direction? 

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[Peter Grabow]

ok -

So a year has passed, and this Spring I broke down and ordered the Fin Delta #2 anchor/riding sail from Banner Bay Marina.

Jess, the owner, was very helpful, patient, and a pleasure to work with.

The great news is that we had a chance to use it Memorial Day weekend (end of May for those not following US holidays).  We had worked out the length and positioning of the 3 lines while still on our dock a week or two before using it - that turned out to be very helpful. 

When we used it for the 1st time, winds were steady around 15 mph, gusting to 20 -25... we didn't need to make any difficult adjustments in the strong winds. We just set the two aft lines, attaching them to the stern chocks, hauled it up on the halyard (our secondary halyard actually) and took the forward line around the mast and back to the jam cleat and snugged it up. Easy.

Results - though not scientific, or precisely measured, without the Fin Delta #2, in similar conditions we would easilly swing at least 90 degrees, and probably as much as 120 degrees, and when the boat changed directions, you could really feel it pull hard in the other direction.  With the riding/anchor sail, in these same conditions, the boat was swinging but only between 40 and 50 degrees ( was measuring this on the helm compass) and when it changed direction, it was gentle and barely noticable.  Also with the 3 wings design of this riding/anchor sail there was no 'snapping' sounds reported by others with flat/single canvas designs.

Dinner was very comfortable and a good night of sleep was had by all!

So far, so good! 

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

[Mike]

Thanks for the report Peter. Good to know what works for our boats. Curious were you using all chain or line as your anchor rode?

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

biankablog.blogspot.com 

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[Gary Forster]

I also purchased a delta 2 and must agree with Peter /Cakewalk - works great. Swing went from 80-100 degrees down to 40-60 degrees .

I purchased a length of ‘off rode’ winch line normally used for jeeps as its a dyneema quality line at a fraction of the cost for the ‘wings’ 50 ft and another 50 ft for  the forward line . ( 1/4 inch seems fine - soft shackles are inexpensive on Amazon as well) Ran the forward line through center of antal ring of the choker assembly and fair back to a reefing winch and cleat. Still playing where the ‘sail’ as the best effect. Photos for reference … regards, g /Aloki

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Mike -

30' of chain, and then line. In total I usually have out approximatley about 110' - adjusted for depth of anchor spot.

Peter

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Bath Water]

Yes, project #93-b for this winter.....I'm sewing a riding sail based on the one in the Good Old Boat article

https://goodoldboat.com/riding-sail-at-anchor/

A 2 wing design. This will fit on the topping lift line with a rigid front end (no need for a halyard), and tether down to the aft quarter deck loops.

I'll take pics when done.

It'll be nice to have one specific to a Nonsuch.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

"Waiting for the yard to install our swim platform"

[newelljc9]

Due to the mast being so far forward, I have revised the way I pick up a mooring especially when single handed. I reverse to one side of the mooring and secure to the buoy from the safety of the cockpit. It works every time regardless of wind strength. Once secured, my 26 does not hunt but swings tracking the direction of the wind. The rig is a perfect weather vane without needing a riding anchor. 

This is unconventional, but so is our rig so one should change one's habits to take advantage of it. I have after over 70 years of messing about with boats. I bought Mascouche in 2006 and it took me to last year to work out how to pick up a mooring on a Nonsuch. On that occasion, I had a disabled person with me so I had nothing to lose trying the new approach. It usually takes more than one attempt when single handed in a breeze because the buoy goes out of the helmsman's sight. It is necessary to secure the rudder amidships. The photo attached was taken on a very hot day in the Toronto inner harbour in a good breeze which flowed through the cabin. It was better than air conditioning 

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

[Joe Weinbrecht]

John,

As a singlehander, I'm very interested.  Do you attach to one stern cleat only, or do you use a  bridle? More details please.

Joe

Ns26c# 156

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[Joe Weinbrecht]

John, 

Have you tried anchoring stern to? Tempting for singlehanders in good weather, but haven't tried it yet. 

Joe

Ns26c# 156

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 9:50 AM newelljc9 <newe...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Bath Water]

 Some progress...

About 6' of120 denier rip-stop and 15 yrd of webbing.

120 degrees forward rake. 48" high, side spars 36".

Rigidity comes from aluminum channel sewn into 2" webbing.

Carefully inspected by Mrs. F. Ball.

"She does take her time, but she's cheap".

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Pretty cool, guys !!

No wonder the cat is proud ......  

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL, NS26 White O'morn]

I think the cat is worried about what happened to the bear.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[Bath Water]

Shhhhh, she'll hear you!      ....and we haven't fattened her up enough yet to replace the current effort....

Next year perhaps?

[Argo]

Is this really as simple as it looks? Thank you :D 

[Bath Water]

Hi,

Essentially yes.

The 2 winged "sail" that you see, has 4 Clips on it.

2 attach to the topping lift line on the central axis. (no halyard involved)

The other 2 are at the outer/lower edges of the wings.

A single line (paracord) runs from the port stern cleat up to the port wing, then to the clip on the starboard wing  and finally down to the starboard aft cleat.

The rig fits in a tidy 48" x 6" bag along with a sunbrella dodger extension kit I've also sewn.

The boat drops in the water Apr 29. I'll send pics with the rig installed to close the project.

Hi Argo,

It's customary to sign off with your name and location so that other Nonsuchers can understand where you are to gain a sense of community and be in a position to reach out and help when you need it locally.

In this case, I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

[Argo]

Hi!

Yeah sorry I'm new here. I'm in the market for a new (to me) Nonsuch 26 but just researching and reading until then!

Best

John Argeseanu

Looking at a Nonsuch 26C

Philadelphia, PA

[Bath Water]

Project #93-b update,

Deployed but not performance tested.

Goes up in 2 min. No halyard.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.