Is the N22 tender

[Martin Pohrille]

I went on a trial sail of an N22 today. 10 knots wind , flat sees. The sail looked blown out  but the boat felt really tender. It must have had a 25 degree heel, close hauled in these benign conditions. Was this an issue of the sail condition or r these boats that tender. My second question is about how much is a new sail for the N22.

Thx 

[Joe Valinoti]

Martin:  We ask that postings on this site include more info such as where you are and, if you have a boat, what and where it is.

Regards,

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Martin -

I owned an NS 22 for 11 years and I adore the boat. (I've never heard a whisper of a compaint from any NS 22 owner). I don't consider it tender at all. However, unlike larger Nonsuches, it pays to reef early. If the winds are over 10 - 12 knots, put in your first reef. Or ....... take 5 minutes before you go out and put in BOTH reefs, at the slip, if it's really blowing. Start with the second reef and, if not needed, shake it out (in 30 seconds, from the cockpit) and sail with the first reef in. You'll achieve fingertip control of your tiller (seriously) and the boat will go virtually as fast as it did without the reef. It is a GREAT boat, built like a warship, huge and comfy inside and out, all packed into 22' , weighing close to 6000 lbs. loaded up.

I replaced the main with a gorgeous new cruising dacron sail by Mack Sails, in Florida, in 2018. I sent Travis Blaine, from Mack, my old blown-out sail and he used it, as a guide, to build the new one. It took the loft 6 weeks to do the work and it's done there, in their Stuart loft. It is a gorgeous piece of sail. The price, back then, was around $2700.00 USD. A bargain, as other lofts wanted more $$$, especially the ones up here in Toronto. And, the sails would be built offshore (though, likely, they'd be fine products).

I'd get a quote from Mack.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Donald Mc Nees Jr]

First impression, something is wrong. Anemometer or inclinator or sail trim. I don't think I can get "CHEERS" to 25 degrees in 10 knots of wind and flat water. Maybe with the wind on the beam and wishbone near centerline. I sail my 22 a lot out of Eagle Harbor on Bainbridge Island and have been in 0 to 25 knots. The 22 is lively and reacts quicker to conditions then the bigger Nonsuches but I would never call it tender. and it is remarkably dry. The boat goes to weather best at 10-12 knots and 1 reef. It will never point as high as a sloop efficiently. Reaching is always fun. Downwind you can carry full main until the waves build and get you rolling. When the clew starts looking like it might hit the water on a roll, 1 reef usually puts you back on your feet. The rudder stays in the water until about 30 degrees. An accidental gybe while maxed out downwind must be avoided. It could hurt the boat and its occupants. If a 2nd reef is needed, for me it is time to get back to the marina.

  I was close to $5000 for a new sail with 4 full battens and plastic track last month. Works a lot better than the 40 year old sail the boat came with.

  Don, NS 22 #16 "CHEERS" Salish Sea

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[theen...@comcast.net]

Hi Martin,

 

Something does not make sense to me.  I owned Whiskers, a Nonsuch 22, #30.  She was not tender.  That boat is tough as nails.  Look at the attached picture with Whiskers putting a traditional cat boat to shame in a 30 mph plus wind.  Note the reef.  Can’t help to mention that we won that race.  There were 5 NS 22s in that race, and all held up to the elements.  Those 22s are great boats and if you are getting a good deal, I would not hold back.  Anyone owning any sailboat needs to know when to reef.   Ten knots is not a lot of wind for these boat.  Twenty five degree is a lot of heel and I seldom saw that with Whiskers and I was in a lot of heavy stuff.  The picture of your trial run is not clear to me.  I am having trouble registering ten knots, flat seas and 25 degree heel.  From talking to others, you may want to budget 3K to 5K for a sail

If you’re making a judgement on the boat and are concerned that it is a wimp boat.  You would be wrong. 

Best of luck to you.

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I echo the sentiments of Donald and Butch. My NS 22 went like a locomotive. VERY seaworthy, dry, safe, forgiving and comfy little ship. Went like hell on a reach. There were only 58 NS 22s built. They are hard to come by. If the vesel you are looking at is halfway reasonably priced, go for it. You'll not be disappointed.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[David Darmstadter]

I agree with all the positives about the NS22s. I owned #12 for several years in Maryland. It was always a blast to sail. (Of course Butch could sail his faster). I bought a new main several years ago from North Sails in Annapolis for $3300 so I’d expect to spend $5K for one now.  I sailed without a reef up to 15-17 knots and never had that sort of heel. It was actually more fun to sail than my current NS26 but the size and additional speed of the 26 expands the cruising grounds. Good luck. You won’t be disappointed with one.

David Darmstadter

NS26U #198 Jade

Boothbay Harbor, ME

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 4, 2024, at 5:13 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

I echo the sentiments of Donald and Butch. My NS 22 went like a locomotive. VERY seaworthy, dry, safe, forgiving and comfy little ship. Went like hell on a reach. There were only 58 NS 22s built. They are hard to come by. If the vesel you are looking at is halfway reasonably priced, go for it. You'll not be disappointed.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/f5f3c816-bcec-4865-9853-5a033473e98an%40googlegroups.com.

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Martin -

If you open this YouTube link, you'll see a few little videos that a buddy of mine shot of my NS 22, bouncing around, with and without reefs, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUU1kFJtgWZ3sQzDsQ5MMpA

I'm also enclosing a few shots of her sailing. A wimpy boat it is not.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[theen...@comcast.net]

Ernie,

 

Those are real good videos.  Using Photo Shop I am going to change flag and sail number and tell all my friends that it was my boat. 

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2024 7:39 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Is the N22 tender

 

Martin -

 

If you open this YouTube link, you'll see a few little videos that a buddy of mine shot of my NS 22, bouncing around, with and without reefs, etc.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUU1kFJtgWZ3sQzDsQ5MMpA

I'm also enclosing a few shots of her sailing. A wimpy boat it is not.

 

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Monday, March 4, 2024 at 6:25:44 PM UTC-5 David Darmstadter wrote:

I agree with all the positives about the NS22s. I owned #12 for several years in Maryland. It was always a blast to sail. (Of course Butch could sail his faster). I bought a new main several years ago from North Sails in Annapolis for $3300 so I’d expect to spend $5K for one now.  I sailed without a reef up to 15-17 knots and never had that sort of heel. It was actually more fun to sail than my current NS26 but the size and additional speed of the 26 expands the cruising grounds. Good luck. You won’t be disappointed with one.

 

David Darmstadter

NS26U #198 Jade

Boothbay Harbor, ME

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 4, 2024, at 5:13 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

I echo the sentiments of Donald and Butch. My NS 22 went like a locomotive. VERY seaworthy, dry, safe, forgiving and comfy little ship. Went like hell on a reach. There were only 58 NS 22s built. They are hard to come by. If the vesel you are looking at is halfway reasonably priced, go for it. You'll not be disappointed.

 

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Monday, March 4, 2024 at 3:19:55 PM UTC-5 theen...@comcast.net wrote:

Hi Martin,

 

Something does not make sense to me.  I owned Whiskers, a Nonsuch 22, #30.  She was not tender.  That boat is tough as nails.  Look at the attached picture with Whiskers putting a traditional cat boat to shame in a 30 mph plus wind.  Note the reef.  Can’t help to mention that we won that race.  There were 5 NS 22s in that race, and all held up to the elements.  Those 22s are great boats and if you are getting a good deal, I would not hold back.  Anyone owning any sailboat needs to know when to reef.   Ten knots is not a lot of wind for these boat.  Twenty five degree is a lot of heel and I seldom saw that with Whiskers and I was in a lot of heavy stuff.  The picture of your trial run is not clear to me.  I am having trouble registering ten knots, flat seas and 25 degree heel.  From talking to others, you may want to budget 3K to 5K for a sail

If you’re making a judgement on the boat and are concerned that it is a wimp boat.  You would be wrong. 

Best of luck to you.

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Ernie

I’m happy to see such vibrant shots of  your time on the wind. I bet you miss those times with the season approaching so quickly this year.

To the prospective N22 owner I say now is the time. Go for it!

Brian Cayer

Spirit~Wind

N30U 419

Deep River, CT

On Mar 4, 2024, at 7:38 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Martin -

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<Bury the rail Aug 2019.jpg>

<Oct 17 2018.jpg>

<Roaring along Aug 2019.jpg>

[Martin Pohrille]

Thank u all for your responses. I really like the boat. After spending 6 months looking it was my top pick. I sail on Long Island Sound. For the last 40 years I have been sailing a Bristol 35 which is a heavy full keel boat. I think this N22 boat had the original sails and it was all bagged out, which, I think, explains why it was heeling so much. I wanted to downsize because I am getting old (77) and I liked the simplicity of the 22. It was outboard powered with no propane, little wood and few systems. It was also my first sail on a smaller boat in many years but it had a nice solid feel to it. 

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Martin Pohrille

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Martin -

I, too, will be 77 very shortly. A grand age. Sadly, I had to sell mine due to a health issue (my health, not the health of the boat !!). Lucky for me, the new owner lives close by in Toronto and will take me sailing. Soon, soon .....  The NS 22 O/B will suit you perfectly. While truly simple to sail (and, in my case, oh so forgiving), there are loads of tricks to slowly learn to improve speed and stability. The adjustable topping lift (to, maybe, get that trailing boom out of the water when it's a little rough) is really handy. Mine was an outboard, also. It was a Toshiba 9.8 and had electric start and electric tilt. Got that engine right out of the water - no drag. True, a little noisier and not the saltiest thing to look at, hanging off the back. But utterly dependable and no diesel i$$ues. No stuffing box, etc. No muss, no fuss. 

My boat came with a lovely old but blown out North Norlam sail. It was loaded with mildew that was actually in the glue that held the laminations together and could not be cleaned off. The sail looked awful and didn't perform too well. The difference with a new sail by Mack was breathtaking. The new sail (in 2018) was built out of dacron, as I mentioned (Challenger Marblehead sailcloth - 6.77). NO laminations - unnecessary (unless you want to race, maybe ??). Easy to wash and keep clean and BOY, did it haul  ...... uh ...... posterior. 

Think very seriously about battens. IMHO, on an NS 22,  a load of full battens is serious overkill and gets in the way of setting the sail FORWARD of the mast (yup, well forward of 90 degrees - a nice trick of Nonsuch-ism - helps to prevent accidental gybes and makes you run downwind even faster). A fully battened sail can also get hung up a bit when dropping into the cradle lines, though it's not common. My sail had one full batten at the top and the remaining 3 were short battens. As I've said, it was beautifully built. 

I have enclosed a photo of me receiving a jet fighter escort, shortly after I got the boat. The pilots were trying to get me to replace the sail. They were right.

Buy the boat, skipper.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[RONALD WEBER]

Martin,

 

One note about the sail. Yes, a stretched out sail makes the boat handling terrible. The sail that I inherited with my boat was a bit old, but was deemed serviceable by the sail maker. He replaced the battens with two full at the top and two extended at the lower. The are tapered and aligned horizontally. The sail now performs very nicely and the leech doesn't fall off in light air. I've had sails built by Mack for other boats and have always been satisfied with the workmanship and follow up service. 

 

Hoping you enjoy your N22, they are excellent boats and worthy of maintaining.

 

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl.

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[newelljc9]

From the threads, it sounds as if the sail is well past its prime and trimmed in too close when working to windward. The boom needs to be trimmed to the gunwale and the sail treated like a genoa. 

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto 

[Bob Gehrman]

Better check the heel-meter and make sure it’s on right, too!

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Bob

That meter is backwards

Brian

Spirit~Wind

On Mar 5, 2024, at 10:15 PM, Bob Gehrman <b...@gehrman.net> wrote:



Better check the heel-meter and make sure it’s on right, too!

<IMG_5066.jpg>

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[Martin Pohrille]

Thank u all for your responses. I hesitated too long on the N22 and the owner told me it was just sold. Great pictures and videos in the responses. The INA is amazing. 

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 12:33 PM newelljc9 <newe...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Martin Pohrille

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   There's one on Yachtworld right now in Clayton, NY, which is a pretty short truck ride from Long Island.  It looks very good and clean and purports to have a "newer" sail in excellent condition.  The savings on not having to buy a new sail or hassle with it should pay most of the transport cost.  Especially if you do it during the off season for trucking boats. 
   Chris, at US Boat Haulers (ch...@usboathaulers.com) treated me right when his company hauled my boat.

   https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1986-nonsuch-22-8372683/

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Bruce Clark]

Quite a pleasant trip to take the boat from Lake Ontario to Long Island via the Oswego and Erie Canals. Need mast down until past Albany but easily arranged. Heck could even attend the International Rendezvous in Toronto before heading south.

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[Thor (26C Brentwood Bay BC)]

Old sails that are stretched will cause excessive heel , the draft is too far back, the boat will side slip ... 

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Martin,

FYI, Harris & Ellis, the broker listing the 22 on Yachtworld that Brian pointed out, is a very well-reputed outfit with a very long history with our boats.    (As in the "Ellis" being Mark Ellis, who designed them.)   I don't think there's a brokerage still in business that has sold more Nonsuches or known them as long.

So, this is well worth taking a look at.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233